E239: 낸시 갈리아디 리틀(Nancy Gagliardi Little) - "막힌 힐링 풀기"

So that's kind of our household. That's the crew, huh? It's the crew. So you mentioned healing in there. And that is what I wanted to talk about today. How about that? Imagine that. I know you're teaching a new healing class in October. And I want to talk a little bit about it. So I know healing can often be a really fraught skill for handlers. We get in our own heads a little bit about it. I thought we'd kind of start there. Why do you think that is? Why is it a hard thing? Yeah, healing is very hard. And that's why for many of us, it's kind of addicting. It's so complex. Lots of moving parts. Lots and lots of moving parts. And it's precise. Lots of precision. So you've got to kind of enjoy that. And then to maintain that precision, you've got to have a way to reinforce the dog that keeps that precision there. And because the dogs change constantly because we're moving, you might have to kind of tweak that. And things just bounce around a lot with healing. The problem is that obedience trainers have a hard time really knowing how to break things down. And that actually becomes problematic for healing because there's so, like I said, there's a lot of moving parts. And part of that, the issues with learning how to break things down is I kind of, I don't want to say I blame, but okay, I'll say it. I blame the way the AKC and many of the other organizations in obedience are set up, especially AKC. I'm more knowledgeable about AKC. And I've said this before. It's just the way the entry-level classes are set up. They don't promote smart training, I'll call it. And I haven't seen, you know, all of the rules for different organizations. But I've yet to see an order of exercises that make sense to me as an entry-level class. There's no other dog sport that I can think of that has such a difficult start in the entry classes as the obedience does. Every other sport I know has entry-level classes that allow more mistakes and they build more complex handling in performance as the dogs advance through the classes. And then we have AKC novice that has twice the amount of healing at the entry-level class in novice. And it's judged exactly the same way as Open B and utility healing. There's nothing different about the way it's supposed to be judged. So I do think that organizations like AKC could provide a better opportunity for trainers to get in the ring and get their feet wet and get excited about training by having a different format. So that's my, I think that's one of the biggest things.

And, you know, it's, it's, it, the FENC team program is really built upon that premise where it kind of promotes that, that building block sort of foundation. So, you know, and, and we could do that with the, with the right classes. But the other thing I've kind of toyed with, the other thing that makes it difficult. I just have been thinking about this a lot and I'm not sure exactly how to put it in words, but for some reason, duration behaviors and healing are kind of on the opposite ends of this spectrum, you know, where duration is all about very being very still in mind, mostly mind, not necessarily the body follows the mind. And that's one end of the spectrum or the scale. And then on the complete opposite, we have a lot of movement, but not just movement, mindless movement. It's very precise movement. So we have both ends of the spectrum. And I think because they're both at opposite ends, they're both very difficult for new exhibitors, average trainers, and maybe, you know, people that just have a completely different dog than they've trained before. So those are kind of my thoughts. It's kind of like a big, big bubble of thoughts. Lots of them. Yeah, but that's a good thing. Yes. All right. So knowing that it's something that's kind of fraught for folks, I thought we could talk about some of the tools or maybe some of the skills that you think it's kind of helpful to have on board when you're teaching healing. Yeah. And when I went through the skills and I looked at them, I went, it was interesting to me because all of them are, except for maybe some of the handling, are skills that I feel are essential for training anything. Number one is, I think, a ready-to-work procedure is critical to know if we're overfacing these dogs. If it's even the most, well, even the most experienced trainers, we watch our dogs and we can see subtle signs in them that they're distracted. However, until you start doing some of these procedures, it really gives you insight into really what's going on with them before we start work. And I think when you're dealing with any kind of training, but especially healing, which is very expensive for the dog, I think it's critical to be at least understanding what is going on at this time with their, you know, in their environment or whatever. Maybe they're just not feeling up to it. So that's critical. Event markers, I think at a minimum, a clicker or a mouth clicker, some way to tell the dog that they are correct. And that's what we're, the behavior we're reinforcing.

To me, whenever we're dealing with an extremely precise skill, such as healing, that is a critical skill. And so I'm very big on ensuring that people have good timing before we start reinforcing behavior. Because sometimes you start bringing in things that you don't really want into healing and now you have a problem. And along with that, just basically clear communication. The other thing that's important in healing, because it's precise, is that we have a reinforcement procedure that is going to work well to keep our dogs in the right heel position. And it's going to vary from dog to dog. I kind of group dogs in a couple different buckets, we'll call them. And I know there's more than that. But we have the dogs that kind of, their workaholic dogs tend to forge a little bit. The position is always ahead. They like movement. They can be very reinforced by movement. Those dogs, I would reinforce much differently than the other dogs that I'll call a little more careful, a little more cautious. They're going to think about things a little bit more. And it's very hard for them to just blast into something. So we kind of, and some dogs are going to kind of gravitate between one and the other, you know, even. So you have to be prepared, whatever you have going with the particular dog that you're reinforcing it in the right place. The other thing that I really feel strongly about is keeping bite-sized training, training sessions that are clean. And what, you know, most people call a clean loop is really thinking about what you're going to do and how you're going to train a certain skill so that you can keep the dog from wandering or questioning what's next. Keep them engaged. And that's going to feel so much better for both you and your dog. And the session is going to go much quicker, which is great for both. So clean loops and eliminating unwanted behaviors is another one. The one thing that I really use a lot with my dogs and my students' dogs are left pivots. I use them a lot in healing, especially for the dogs that like to tend to forge more and like to move. There be a long time where I'll do healing without any right or about turns or even straight, many, much straight lines, mostly left pivots. 360 left pivots, 180 left pivots, you know, and the dogs love it. You wouldn't think so, but they do. And it helps the opposition. So, and even for the dogs that are a little more careful and cautious, they kind of like that stillness because you're not really moving forward at that point. So left pivots are big with me. Default eye contact.

I really want the dogs, even though I don't necessarily want my dogs to be watching my eyes. The default eye contact tells me the dog is ready. And this is mostly out of heel position. It's kind of teaching the dog to engage. So I need to know that. And then sustained attention so that I know that my dog can pay attention a little bit longer. Those are the things that I actually, when I looked at my list, I was like, you know what, that's stuff I would use for maybe not the left pivots. Yes, the left pivots. I use that even in agility for setups. So, you know, all of those things I just mentioned previously, I would use for any training skill. The other thing that doesn't apply to every other training area would be just practicing, handler practicing healing skills without your dog, which I think is really critical. And mostly that involves teaching handlers to stay in a rhythm or a tempo, which helps the dogs incredibly. It just creates a, dogs really like rhythm and tempo and in the movement in that predictable tempo helps them stay engaged. So, so that's kind of, those are the basic things for me. The big things. The big things. Yes. All the stuff, the rest of the stuff we can fill in. So, so I know there, there can be quite a bit of variety out there in terms of kind of what people are looking for as that final picture. So I wanted to talk about that a little bit. What, what factors should handlers consider, you know, when they're trying to determine what they want that final picture to look like, you know, for their specific dog? And then kind of, you know, what are some of the options? Like, what is it that they're actually deciding between? Because we all know it's super important to have that final picture in mind when you're training. Yes. Yeah. And that's going to definitely, it's going to vary. You know, for one thing, it's each organization is going to have requirements and descriptions on what healing means, whether it's protection sports or competition obedience. And there's all kinds of different organizations in the U.S. And there's different organizations overseas. They all are going to look a little bit different. There's freestyle, which is basically creative, you know, and you can pretty much put a dog in any position, but you just have to know where you want them. And if you're consistent with where you want them, then, you know, that's, that's the most important thing.

The other thing I thought about, too, is this wouldn't apply to my class so much, but it does apply to your question, is there are healing places for healing where you don't really want your dogs to focus on you. And that would be, you know, going to the line for a sporting dog that you're going to send out on a retriever flush or whatever they do. Pretty much, you're going to be moving in a straight line. And healing, there is an organization called NAVDA that judges healing. So I know that it is judged. I believe it's penalized. I'm not really sure, but the dogs need to be looking ahead. So, you know, that would be a totally different picture. Herding would be the same thing going to the post. You would want the dogs to kind of move with you, you know, in a, in whatever position you care about. And they should be also focused ahead and not on you. I definitely not prefer my dogs looking at me going to the post. But most of the obedience organizations in the U.S., the dog is going to be positioned at the left side. And there's lots, like I said, there's lots of different ways of explaining it. AKC has a range of where you want the dog to be. But what I simplify it for most people is I just tell them that a good place for the dog to be would be at the left side. And if you think about your hip going, you know, a line from your hip straight down to the ground, the dog's ear should be kind of in that area a little bit, maybe a little bit ahead or in that area, depending on the dog. So that's kind of a general good way of looking at it. But there is ranges there. And then we have to decide whether you want, you know, preferably, I think for most obedience competitors, we want our dogs to be focused upward a little bit because there are turns involved in healing. And turning to the right is fairly simple for most dogs because they're on their front end. But if you're turning to the left, you're going to be moving into their space. So it's kind of important that they have some type of upward focus. And I know that's, you know, so that's a decision to make is where you want your dog to watch. And the way I like to teach it is that I really like the dogs just to figure out where it feels best to watch. Because some of the little dogs cannot see your eyes. And if they look up to your eyes, they're going to be out of position. They're going to be wide. They're going to come ahead. I know my border collies, if I taught them to watch my eyes, I would have a lot of forging issues just because that's where they would gravitate to no matter what I did. That's just kind of in them.

And I've tried that. So in terms, I know there's a lot of successful competitors out there that teach their dogs to watch their eyes. But they have to be a large enough dog. And you've got to be a really good handler so that you can actually walk a straight line. And most of the average handlers can't do that. The other piece to this I find with average dog trainers and handlers is that if you have nerves at all, when you're watching your dog, the dogs see right into your soul. And they might respond to seeing a little bit of panic in your eyes when they make a minor mistake. And the other, the last thing about looking into the eyes, you know, that's a judgment. That's a decision by people, handlers they have to make. The other thing is, if you are feeling like you need to watch your dog's eyes, you have to have a plan for what happens if your dog moves out of position. If they move ahead, are you going to look into their eyes? And what does that mean then to the dog? If they fall behind, are you going to turn back and look at them? If you do that, that's putting a lot of pressure back on those careful dogs. And they're going to probably respond by being more careful and maybe slowing down and stopping. So those are things we have to think about with eye contact. So those were really the only things I could think about in terms, it's the position where you want your dogs focused in order to get that precision. Those are kind of the decisions you have to make. You mentioned the rules in there. So now we'll talk about the rules for a second. Sure. I know the answer is going to vary depending on organization. But can you talk a little more in terms of the organizations that you're familiar with on what the actual rules are for what a dog has to do while healing to kind of pass the exercise? Sure. Sure. So I have competed in UKI or UKC, I guess. UKI is agility. So sorry. UKC. Fair enough. UKC, CKC, which is Canada, AKC and ASCA. We have CDSP around here and I have students that trial in CDSP. But I have to admit, I don't really know the rules. But in, you know, coming from an AKC background and I think the other organizations I mentioned are very similar to AKC. Um, the, there, there's usually minor and substantial deductions that are taken, um, in healing. And there is plenty of both of those. And I'll just kind of go over the common ones, the more common ones. Um, and by the way, the handler can be penalized as well as the dog. So some dog sports handling is, isn't penalized as much.

Um, so like in agility, there's, you know, there, unless the handler does something, you're really not penalized at all. It's basically watching the dog. So minor deductions would be like a half a point to two points. Those, that's kind of the range for AKC or two and a half would actually be. Um, but, um, it's, and then, um, like, uh, it would be things like bumping or crowding or lagging, forging, poor sits and heel position. Um, um, those are just the most common. And then substantial points would be, um, they're like, forging is a little more dramatic. Lagging is a little more, you know, intense. Um, might be an extra command, um, from the handler. Actually, most handler errors in healing are going to be substantial errors. Also, like a no set would be a substantial error. And those are just the most common. There's 40 points in healing in AKC. I'm not 100% sure what it is in the other organizations, but it's somewhere probably between 30 and 40 points. And in AKC, what, in order to pass healing, you have to get at least 50% or actually more than 50% of the points in that exercise. So you have to be 21. Yep. Okay. Yep. And that would just be to pass healing. Interesting. I didn't actually realize that you could lose that. Like, I thought it would higher than that. 50% actually is, it's fairly reasonable. I mean, yes. Yeah. Yep. And, you know, that's when there's lots of mistakes. That's where the mistakes usually happen is in the healing. You have, in novice, you have two healing, two 40 point healing exercises. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So I know your class is really kind of focusing on folks who get stuck. So what are some of the common places that handlers get stuck when teaching healing? And then if you can talk us through an example and maybe how you'd handle it. Yeah. So my class is going to deal with dogs that are already healing or have some healing training in them. And the, so the most common areas, there's, there's a lot of areas, but there are definitely some common areas that people get stuck in. And one of the biggest one is reducing reinforcements. That's huge. Um, and that goes hand in hand with duration. They're kind of the same thing. Maintaining a consistent position. Um, there's plenty of people that deal with lagging or forging, um, with their dogs. Um, then there's the, um, the issue with handlers not being able to keep, you know, their dogs train great at home, but then once they go somewhere else, they, they don't act the same. Um, so I call that maintaining a consistent performance everywhere. And then also another big one is handler confidence.

Um, and I have, you know, I have many other areas as well, but these are the really big ones. Um, and, um, they're actually all kind of related to each other in different ways too. So, um, so sometimes it's just a matter of looking at one that it's bugging you the most to just kind of diving in. And sometimes that just solves the other issues in terms of taking, you know, an example. It's, it's, it is hard to take one example because there's, um, there's so many examples within them. Um, you know, so like, even like, if you look at handler confidence, that's, it's really big. And I find that the more I work with people, the bigger that is. Um, and, um, part of, part of me thinks that, that we could solve the handler confidence better. We talk about mindset training a lot. Um, and that's important, um, and that's important, but it's also important for handlers to believe that they can train these behaviors. And I think there's so, um, so much doubt in them as to how to progress and how to, to train to that level, um, and what to do that. I think that confidence just gets shot. Um, so part of it with the handler confidence and kind of focusing on that is really diving in and maybe taking some pieces that are a little bit easier for the dog and the handler and as a concept and moving that around and, um, trying to deal with that in, uh, many different ways to challenge the handler and how they respond to things. That's a big piece of the puzzle is that I think, um, as handlers, they, we get comfortable with what's going on and it's easy to, um, to feel uncomfortable and then move back to that comfortable state again quickly. The obedience competitors just have a tougher time handling things that don't involve patterns. Um, the sport is pretty much built around patterns. And if you go to any other, I'm not a hundred percent sure of all sports, but, um, you know, I do know about agility and herding and I'm sure many sports are the same way as, um, there's not, there may be a pattern, but there's way too many factors for there to be really a pattern that you can depend on. Um, like in, for instance, in agility, you know, once you release your dog at the start line, there really is no pattern. I mean, it changes day to day. Um, even if you watch every dog and handler on a course, which can be, you know, 300, you're going to see nothing that is the same. Um, it just can't possibly be because each dog is different. Each handler is different in the handling decisions are different as well. Where in obedience, everything is the same.

It's the same pattern in the dogs and handlers all look the same really, um, in terms of what they're doing. I mean, they may respond slightly different. And I think that mentality kind of gets in our way as obedience exhibitors. And we're thinking about training in terms of patterns. And I think that is an excellent way to start, but we have to get to the point where we're allowing messy training to happen and learning how to handle that and let it go. Cause obedience people can't let it go. They want to dive in and make it better right away. And you can't, and I think part of this training is teaching handlers to let it go, you know, um, move on and let's just, you know, cause if you look at the way obedience works in the ring, um, when there's mistakes with mistakes or responses from the dogs that are, are incorrect, that's going to cause it in queue. The majority of the time when you watch, there is, there is a look on the handler's face of just, it's just not, I'm trying to find the right words. Um, the handlers aren't used to in queuing. They're not used to failing. There's a much higher percentage, um, queue rate there. Um, so what is considered perfection? Is it the perfect qualifying score or, you know, is it the dog's enthusiasm and how we feel and engage together in the ring? I think it's just, there, there's just a very, there's a concept there that I think, you know, as the sport is so patterned, um, we need to kind of look at that more. And I'm trying to do that in this class too, is teach handlers how to set up sessions to work that piece, um, where it's going to be a little bit messy and you just let it go. Um, and you know, and, and I think that's super important. I do that with my agility students as well. And it works a little bit different, but, um, I think it's super important in obedience. So, um, you know, I don't, I don't know if that makes sense or not. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That said, I know you're not the only healing class on the schedule this term. So I want to talk a little bit about kind of who's a good fit for your class versus who might want to consider, um, Nicole's class, I think is the other option. Do you want to share a little bit kind of on who maybe you should fit into each? Sure. Um, yeah, so my class, you would definitely want to have some healing, um, training on your dogs. Um, you want to make sure that you're not starting from the ground up. Nicole's class, um, I believe is, um, starting dogs that don't really know how to heal from the ground up. And, um, so I think the two classes really compliment each other.

So basically if you're, um, if you're not, if you're not a good fit for my class, then you might be a good fit for Nicole's. Um, and, um, yeah. And so I think that most of my course is going to be a little bit more on concepts and it's very heavy on information. Um, it does have skills and I do help people with skills because there is going to be things that, um, are show stoppers for people. Um, but Nicole's class is going to be a lot more skill-based. Mine is a lot more concept-based. It's going to hopefully, hopefully helping people to think about, um, teaching and training healing a little bit differently. Okay. So to kind of round things out with one last question, we were to kind of take the conversation we had today on heel work and, um, drill it down into, I guess, one key piece of information or one takeaway you really want listeners to understand or kind of walk away with. What would that be? Yeah, this is like such a hard question, but most of the training that's involved for competing in dog sports involves training, handling, and concepts at a much higher level than what's typical in that sport. And I really, um, want obedience people to make a shift in the way we think about training and competing, um, in that aspect, in that sense. I want them to, to, um, think about, um, going through a process where things don't necessarily always go well. Um, but you can still handle it in a nice, smooth fashion. And somebody might be watching you outside the ring and won't even realize that anything happened just by the way you acted. We need to learn how to keep going and letting things, let things go, um, and make sure that we understand how to handle messy training sessions and things that will happen in trials can be messy. And so to me, that piece is missing. That's the most important piece that I want to convey to obedience, um, competitors. Um, it's just really different for our dogs. And, uh, because we don't know how to do that, it creates a lot of anxiety and handlers. And I think that is a showstopper in obedience. Um, and then the bite-sized training, um, I really want people to think about doing that less is more and really focusing on specific skills instead of, um, this massive lumping of formality that we do, um, that becomes boring for us. And it's important for us to be inspired because our dogs certainly aren't going to be inspired if we aren't. Yeah. I think that probably sums it up. There's two, but yeah, two takeaways. Yeah. Two takeaways. Gotcha. It's always hard to drill down. Always. Yeah, for sure. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Nancy. Yeah, you bet.

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