E228: 샤론 캐럴(Sharon Carroll) - "반응성 및 고각성견을 위한 행동 수정"

I mean, all dogs react, but reactive dogs react. And it's kind of visible usually with a reactive dog. So they have big emotions and then they have big escalations in arousal associated with that. And you see the response. You see the behaviors. It might be the leaping, the lunging, the barking, those sort of things. That's what we see in those reactive dogs. Hyperarousal really just refers to excessive arousal or sort of an abnormal state of increased responsiveness to stimuli. So the dog's always on high alert, ready to respond. To be a purist, the term hyperarousal when it's used in humans really is very specific to those negative balance of motions like fear and anxiety. But when we talk about it in dogs, we're really just talking about that group of dogs that go to high arousal levels very easily and they express it in a big obvious way. But the actual emotions underneath might be frustration, might be excitement. It might be a threat to safety, the same as hyperarousal would be in humans. So yeah, reactive is those big behaviors associated with specific stimuli or what we might call triggers. So maybe dogs, people, bikes, where we see the dog react to those triggers. Whereas the hyperarousal is more those dogs that just go to high arousal levels very easily. It could be in training. It could be around the home. It may even be directed at the handlers or the situation. And when I say directed, I'm not talking about redirected aggression. I'm just talking about things like spinning and barking and just being frustrated or being emotional about a situation. So I think in this class, what we're going to see is probably two groups of dogs. We're probably going to see those dogs that are typically high energy and are predisposed to rapidly becoming highly aroused or displaying reactivity. So they'd sort of fall under both banners. They'd be the reactive and hyperaroused. But I think because a lot of this course is about reactivity, we're also going to see another group of dogs joining us. And that subset of dogs would be the lower energy reactive dogs. So these dogs may not routinely exhibit those high energy levels, but they are still predisposed to big physical displays when they're triggered. So whether it's reactivity or hyperarousal, then understanding and managing arousal is what's key to truly understanding these dogs and modifying their existing behaviours. And that's why we've got both groups in this class. So you mentioned in there kind of in passing some of the causes, right? Some of the reasons that dogs tend towards hyperarousal or reactivity.

Can you just expand on that a little bit? Sure. So often there's a genetic component or a prior learning component. But when we're really looking at the emotions and the motivations that drive these high arousal levels and then potentially the onflow to reactivity, we could be looking at things like fear, anxiety, frustration, excitement, being stimulated by fast movement and or sound, predatory behaviours, state-driven reactivity. So that's when we're looking at a dog that performs these behaviours because it's at a high arousal level already. That's where the reactivity comes from to the stimulus. So there's a lot of dogs that are genetically based non-social dispositions. So not an antisocial dog, just a dog that lacks interest in being in close contact with unknown humans. Those sort of situations as well can drive this reactivity. So there's lots of different underlying emotions and motivations that causes reactive behaviours. How much does kind of knowing where it's coming from or knowing kind of the why of the behaviour actually matter or impact our training plan when we're actually looking at modifying some of those behaviours? Yeah. Well, part of this class is helping people look for the why in their individual dog. The why does matter in the end. If people understand the why their dogs do what they do, then they're likely to have more empathy for the dog and they're also likely to manage the behaviours better. And in a practical sense, the why matters because it does ultimately affect the training plan. So, for example, with a fearful or anxious dog, systematic desensitisation and counter-conditioning is going to be key. And really, once that's effectively completed, then there's no need to add anything further. Whereas if the dog is performing the behaviours for a desire-based reason, so they just really like chasing cars or they really like chasing joggers or whatever it is, then we need to add additional steps. So just systematic desensitisation and counter-conditioning alone won't be enough for those sort of cases, even though both those groups display reactive behaviours. I know that you mentioned in your description this idea of offered durational engagement. So I wanted to drill in on that because it's certainly a term that I haven't heard anybody else use before. Can you tell us a little bit about kind of what it is and how it works? Sure. Offered durational engagement is really about getting an offered behaviour rather than cued behaviour. It's about having duration. So the dog's actually focused on us for a period of time, not just checking in and checking back out again.

And engagement, obviously, is a key part of it. So offered durational engagement delivers some components of systematic desensitisation, some components of classical conditioning and some components of operant conditioning. It starts with rewarding engagement. So we give our dog options. We do limit those options because we have a leash on our dog and we're standing in one place ourselves. And we very carefully select the environment to match the dog's existing skill sets. But then we really don't tell our dog what to do. If the dog engages with us, then we reinforce that engagement. They are free to check out whatever is happening around them at any time. We're not telling them not to look. But every time they decide to engage with us, we reward that choice. Selecting the environment carefully throughout the process is important because we really want the dog to choose us. Then we build. We build to having that engagement sustained. So we build some duration in. And that's important because we want the dog to remain engaged, not just flick back to us, grab a treat and then focus on their attention elsewhere again. We then very methodically build in known non-triggering distractions. Then we build in novel distractions. Then we build in known triggers. Then we add in some cued behaviors if we need to. Then we add in varying our own dog's arousal levels so that they ultimately can compete in high arousal sports or go to the park and play at high arousal levels and do that with the distractions or with the previous triggers nearby. We don't want to be in a situation where the dog has to remain at low arousal levels in order to be able to cope with the triggers. We actually want them to get to that next level. So what is it that you like about that approach? How did you come to use it? Yeah, there's so many reasons I like it. I mean, I developed it just through different pieces of other people's methods and just through watching dogs as I worked with them. And there's so many reasons I like it. I like it because it doesn't create that yo-yo effect that you so often see where the dog looks at you, sort of looks at something in the environment, checks back to you briefly, grabs a treat off you, and then disengages straight away from others and gets back to looking around. That might be okay in some situations, but depending on the driving motivators, it's not great in all situations to have that. And then on top of that, if we are looking at competition dogs, we don't want that. We really want to encourage that sustained duration with us, that sustained focus.

I also like it because it's a 10-step process, so it's methodical. It's easy to follow and it progresses in a really systematic way. I also like it because the key is to help the dog find time between stimulus and response. So that's important for those dogs that trigger very quickly and easily and have very fast responses when they see a trigger or see something that's stimulating, especially for those dogs that have chase behaviours or prey drive. And they literally go so fast to that reaction that they can't think. They don't have time to think. So what this protocol does is it helps them find time between the stimulus and the response. And if they can find time, then they can make an alternate choice. And if they can make a decision, then we can reinforce that decision and then we start to build those behaviours that we want. I also like it because we label the intensity of the triggers from the individual dog's perspective in that environment at that moment in time. So we have really clear categories of very low, low, moderate, high. And because they're defined categories, we can get really good at immediately knowing what steps we need to take. Can we stay there and keep working? Do we maybe need to move to a different area? Do we need to decrease the challenge? Or is the dog going really well and it's time to increase the challenge? So by really defining those intensity levels from the dog's perspective, it helps us to make those decisions or to know when to make those decisions. Offered durational engagement, I think I mentioned before, relies on offered behaviours. That's really important because it takes a lot more thinking for a dog to offer a behaviour than it does for them to perform a verbally cued behaviour. So it's really important for me anyway. I feel it's really important that they're thinking clearly enough to offer this behaviour as opposed to they're barely thinking, but we can kind of get a behaviour out of them. So we want to go one step further than that. And also I like it because the same protocol can be followed whether we're working on decreasing reactivity in a reactive dog or whether we're working on desensitisation for a sensitive or fearful dog or whether we're working on distraction training for our competition dogs. The essence of the protocol remains exactly the same. We just focus on different pieces of the protocol and we add different pieces in the final two steps. So, yeah, I guess you asked me why I like the approach and I guess the biggest reason is that it's effective.

I've seen it work on lots of different dogs in lots of different situations, lots of different driving emotions and motivators. I think it's a good system. You mentioned in there the offered behaviours piece again. And I'm just curious if you have an example of the type of behaviour we're talking about there when we say an offered behaviour. Well, in this particular case, the dog's literally just offering to givers' engagement. In this situation, they're offering the engagement. They're thinking clearly enough to remember that if they look to you and stay focused on you, they get a treat. That's all they have to remember. It doesn't seem like a big thing to remember, but when their head's clouded with other thoughts and other issues, that's a big enough thing. And so we need to very quickly reward the fact that they got to the point where they could remember that all they have to do is look at us and they get a treat. Okay. So we talked a little bit about the dog's piece of things. I want to talk also a little bit about the handler's piece of things, right? What handler skills really kind of matter when we're working with dogs that tend towards hyperarousal and reactivity? What do we as handlers or people need to develop in our own skill set and why? Like, why are they important? Sure. Observation. I think observation skills are super important. You really need to respond ahead of time when you're working with a reactive dog or a dog that's capable of escalating to high levels of arousal really fast. If you're consistently waiting until the big behaviour occurs in response to that escalating arousal, then you've almost left it a bit late to implement effective behaviour modification. So observation skills are super important and we will be practising honing those skills over this class. Planning is another important skill. With reactive dogs and dogs that escalate rapidly to those high levels of arousal, you need to have a plan ahead of time. A plan for undesirable situations. A plan for what to do when errors occur in training. A plan for what to do when the arousal starts to escalate. Definitely the better you are at planning, the smoother the training goes. And then, well, other skills. I mean, I could say things like clean mechanics and great timing, but honestly, those skills often come with practice and experience. I don't think they're skills you need to start out with and they're definitely not skills you need to have to take this class. Fair enough. So can you talk a little more about kind of the impact of arousal itself, both on the dog

kind of physically and on their learning and ultimate performance? Yeah, absolutely. So arousal is both a physiological and psychological state and its purpose is purely to generate alertness, mobility and readiness to respond. And that could be because the individual needs to perform a goal-oriented behaviour. So for a native dog, that might be literally chasing down their prey and eating it. But for our competition dogs, often it's performing a goal-oriented behaviour that we've previously reinforced. So they've got that alertness, mobility and readiness to respond quite quickly to our cue. But alternatively, that alertness, mobility and readiness to respond could be because they need a defence response. So fight or flight. So the animal's preparing to fight or flee the situation. So when it comes to arousal with our dogs, we tend to really mainly be thinking about that over-arousal component. In behaviour modification anyway, that's mostly what we're always worried about, that over-arousal part, when the dog's what we call past threshold. So when we see a dog past threshold, what we're going to see is usually a dog that is unable to follow those known cues. So when we say a known cue, something that if at home in the kitchen we ask the dog to sit, the dog could sit and they could do it quite quickly and it would be accurate. If we're seeing though a delayed response to those cues, so we say sit and the dog slowly sits or we say sit, sit, sit. We have to keep repeating ourselves because the dog's sort of looking at us like it doesn't really remember what the word means. Or the dog's performing the incorrect response. So we cue a down but the dog spins. So they're thinking enough to notice you're asking for something but they really can't think enough to pick the right thing. Or they're not able to engage with us at all to follow a cue because they're so busy, focused on something in the environment. Or they're looking at us but they still can't perform the cue. They're literally staring at us and just don't have a clue what you're talking about. And that's because even though they're looking at us, their head is somewhere else. So that over arousal, that past threshold, what we're really seeing is a dog that their brain is basically now working on instinct and emotion. That's where the decision making comes from. They're not thinking enough to be able to, you know, the thinking part of the brain's not really there. And also at that time, you'll probably see them in many cases rejecting treats. And that's purely to do with that sympathetic nervous system that's driving upwards.

And it's just making the digestive system start to slow down and making the dog essentially not want to take in treats. So we get this rejecting of treats when the dog's past threshold. In terms of how it affects performance, you asked that. Arousal is really interesting because it can be too low or it can be too high. And then there's this magic window in the middle. But too low and too high, it's a little bit, you know, not defined because that too high and too low is going to depend on the situation. It's going to depend on the individual dog. It's going to be dependent on what sport they're performing. It's not an actual place in time. And so if we look at something like attention and focus and concentration, we know that arousal enhances focus and concentration. As the arousal increases, there's a reduction in the number of cues that are able to be recognized and processed. And that's where that increased focus comes from. They start to narrow down all the different stimuli to just the important ones. Now, if arousal is too low, we have poor focus, lose concentration, poor perception and response to relevant cues because we're just taking in too many cues to really process what's going on. But when we see a dog where the arousal is too high, they're so focused on a very limited number of cues that some of the relevant cues actually get missed. And when I say cues, I'm not talking about our cues. It might be cues in the environment. It might be the dumbbell that we just threw out there. So whatever cue, or it might just be dogs walking by, but they're starting to narrow down to just so fewer things are taking their focus that they might miss some important things or what we think are important, like our cues. And if that is, we think our cues are the most important, but the dog might not be thinking that our cues are the most important. There might be more important cues as far as the dog's concerned. So if anxiety and stress is driving that arousal, then what we'll also see maybe is some hypersensitivity to what we would consider as irrelevant cues. So they're very focused on the person walking past or they're very focused on the dog. We think it's an irrelevant cue. They don't. They're very focused on it. And then I guess the other effects on performance are things like decision making. So arousal improves speed of decision making. But again, if arousal is too low, they're not able to respond to the situation quickly enough. But if arousal is too high, then you've got some erratic decision making.

So it's not good decision making because they're not able to effectively evaluate the situation and come up with the right answer. So we really need to help our dogs maintain optimal arousal. It's really important to know about arousal, especially in these types of dogs. But optimal arousal is going to vary depending on the individual dog. It's going to vary depending on the type of task or the sport they're performing. It's going to vary depending on the environment they're in. And it's also going to depend on how fluent they are at the task we're asking them to perform. So it's our job to help them manage their arousal and keep it in that optimal zone where they can think at the best of their ability and they can perform at the best of their ability. I think we covered a whole bunch of ground. But I wanted to kind of give you a minute just to share if there's anything else you wanted to kind of talk through about the class, about what's included, about who it's for. Is there anything else you just kind of want people to know? Okay. So it's important to remember it is a behavior modification class. So it's targeted at dogs that are having behavioral issues due to their reactivity or their high arousal levels. Those issues might include things like reactive displays to triggers when out on walks, running and barking at triggers along fence lines, barking and lunging at triggers through the window from the home, dogs that lose their brain and are unable to think and follow cues when visitors arrive, dogs that struggle to travel calmly, dogs that are unable to settle or follow cues when they arrive at a new location. So they're the types of things that we really are looking at. The majority of the practical component is about working our way through that 10 steps of the offered durational engagement protocol. But we do have a few other exercises as well. I should add here, though, we do talk about aspects of training that can inadvertently contribute to escalations of arousal and the associated unwanted behaviors like barking at us or running off and doing zoomies in the middle of competitions or leaving training to visit dogs and people. But this is not a class full of fun exercises for training high energy or excitable dogs. This is a behavior modification class. I do think, though, that Julie Daniels does have a class this term for working with those high energy fun dogs. So if you've been listening to this and you're saying to yourself, not sure that this is the exact right fit for me and my dog,

then I would definitely recommend checking out Julie's class and seeing if that's a better fit. I think from memory, and I hope I get this right, I'm pretty sure her class is called Crazy Good. And I think it's in the foundation section. Let's see if I can pull that. I'm pretty sure that's right. And while you're pulling that up, what else do we have in my class this term? In the final weeks, we do start to look at the where to from here part. So how to move on from offered durational engagement, how to use this approach to create more focused sports dogs, or how to use this approach to get the pet dog behaviors we want. I think it's also important to mention here the human component in these cases. Working with a reactive dog can at times be mentally and physically draining. We sometimes feel judged by others, and at times we question our own abilities with these dogs. Occasionally, humans with highly reactive dogs may feel inadequate or incompetent or guilty or frustrated or embarrassed or confused or anxious or isolated or exhausted. So in this class, we do lightly touch on the human part of the equation. I want anyone who joins this class to feel supported. And I understand that whatever emotions, I want them to understand that whatever emotions they're feeling or they're felt, there'll be others in the class that have felt the same way. And there's a student Facebook group that I've set up for this class. And I really want students of all levels, whether you join up at bronze or silver or gold, I want them to use that page. I think the support of other people with reactive dogs is invaluable. I think, especially for students taking the class at bronze, it can sometimes feel a bit lonely. And I don't want that. I want everyone who takes this class to feel like there's a network of people following along on their journey with them. I want them to put up their progress videos, share their breakthroughs, share their good training sessions, but also share their not so good days. And I want everyone to really support each other. But the journey with a reactive dog can be really tough. And having a support network, I think, does definitely really help. So I did pull up Julie's class and you are right. It's called Crazy Good Self-Control Games for the Wild Child. And I think it's fantastic that you kind of pointed out that that's there. If folks maybe have close, but not quite the right fit. Yeah. Because you might be listening to this going, well, my dog's like, yeah, definitely it's a high energy, high arousal dog. But I don't really have problems, big problems with my dog.

Then, yeah, maybe. But definitely, yeah, go and have a look and just see which is the best fit. And remember, this is a behavior modification class, not necessarily, you know, a training, a sport training class. All right. To kind of round out our chat here, one last question for you. If you were to kind of drill down our conversation from today, and I know we've kind of covered a lot of ground, but if you could drill it down into one key piece of information you really want people listening to understand or to kind of take away from us, right? What would that be? Melissa, I think you know me well enough to know I'm not going to be able to do that. I cannot summarize into one key piece. There's no way that I can get this down to one key piece, but I will summarize really quickly. I think reactive dogs and dogs that are hyper aroused aren't trying to be disruptive. I think it's important to remember that. They're not trying to be disruptive. Something is driving the behavior, and it's our job to work that out and to help them. I think it's important to remember that behavior modification is possible in all cases. And I think it's also important to remember that it can be achieved with positive methods, regardless of the underlying emotions and motivations driving the behaviors. So I got it down to three pieces. That was pretty good. You did that good. Yeah, you got it down to about, I mean, it's three pieces, but it was about 30 seconds, right? That's not bad at all. That's not bad. All right. All right. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Sharon. No, it's been great. Thank you. And thanks to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with Barbara Currier to talk about puppies again. So Puppy Foundations and her work so far with her young dog, Fish. If you haven't already subscribed to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice, they have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the FensiDog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fensi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training.

Today's show is brought to you by the Fensi Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food Food