E49: 데니스 펜지(Denise Fenzi) - "놀이"

And I have noticed that the students come into the class with a different perspective. So the very first time I taught the class, it was kind of universal. Every person said the same thing, which is, but how will I use this in competition? And honestly, this term so far, not one student has actually said that. So change is taking place. I don't know if it's because the reputation of the class has encouraged that or if it's our student base has developed and they see things differently. I'm not sure, but it certainly has saved me some time writing to people. Please, let's focus on the process for now. We'll get to that later. What kind of benefits can learning to play with your dog really have on that underlying relationship? The one I usually bring up first is that to play well with a dog without food or toys requires an incredible amount of attention to how the dog is responding to what you are doing, kind of on a second by second basis. Because if you do something that you think is attractive to your dog and your dog has a different opinion, you have about a half a second to figure that out before your dog avoids you. Now, I look at this as all a great big learning opportunity. So it's not a problem that your dog runs off when you do something. It's you say to yourself, well, maybe I shouldn't do that again. And what I find is that the process of teaching play is probably the fastest way for me to teach people how to observe their dog's body language because everything is so immediate. The handler does something. The dog responds. The handler responds. The dog gives a final response. And if you made good decisions at those two junctures, then you will have a good response or a neutral response. And if you misread the dog's behavior, you will get instant feedback. And I find that's invaluable. So how does that compare or maybe mix with play's role as a motivator for training? Well, within training, if I still have my food and my toys, I primarily use it as a way to break up sessions. So, for example, over the last month, I've been recording every single session with Lyra and Brito learning to heal on my right hand side, which is a new thing for all of us. And that means I'm spending longer than I should on each training session. So let's say that an ideal training session with a new skill is a minute, which is probably about right. Well, after I've taken the time to set up the video camera and make it happen just for purely pragmatic reasons, I cannot do that. But what I can do is train for a minute, stop and play with my dog. And it can be as little as five seconds.

As a matter of fact, it often that would be normal. Five seconds, 10 seconds, maybe 15 or 20 seconds. That would be unusual. And then I can ask for another minute or two. And those little mini breaks relax everyone. They relax me and the dog and they let go of the stress, which is invariably. Part of learning. So while positive reinforcement training is designed to be fun and to be low stress, that doesn't change the fact that sometimes the dog or the human is not getting it right. And that builds up stress. So being able to play in the middle of a session is really a fantastic thing for everyone. And it's I think if nothing else, it reminds the handler why they have their dog. And it reminds the dog that everything's good. Mama still loves me. Even if I make some mistakes, everything is fine here. So I know you touched on this a little bit already, but kind of how does learning to play really help people read their dog? And kind of why is that beneficial? I think for anybody involved in dog training, being able to read your dog is 90% of the game. It's actually so significant that now when people describe to me what is happening with their dog, I almost refuse to answer if I don't have a video because I find it so common that I see something different than they see. So when people can see what their dog is doing and accurately interpret it, their training is going to skyrocket. It's kind of hard to underestimate the value of accurately reading your dog's behavior. So for example, when dogs walk off in the middle of training to sniff, the vast majority of novice trainers see that as the dog finding something better to do. They found a good smell. It takes a lot of time to learn that most of the time the dog is actually avoiding you. And while that's a little uncomfortable, recognizing it for what it is, it's not a condemnation of you as a person. It simply means that whatever you are doing at that moment, at that time is causing distress to your dog. It's nothing more than that. So if I'm in a training session and it seems to be going okay and my dog starts to scratch or show some other sign of distress, I don't get upset about it. I just change my ways. And that is something that play can give to you, that quick ability to sort of in real time instantly identify how your dog is feeling. And while I specifically called out distress, that's equally true of a happy dog. So what are your dog's happy signals? What do the ears do? What does the mouth do? What do the eyes do? What does the tail do? There's a lot to the picture and there's just the sheer fun of it, right?

So for the handler to look at their dog and recognize their dog really wants to be there and to feel confident in that assessment, that really does amazing things for your training. What about specifically for anxious dogs? Are there benefits to learning to play for those dogs? Personally, I don't go in that direction in my classes. So what I tell people is my job is going to be to help you become a better play partner to your dog. That is my emphasis. However, I know that, for example, Amy Cook, who also teaches at the academy, she uses play as a way of relaxing dogs in stressful situations and also as a barometer of the dog's suitability for the place where it's at. So being able to play with an anxious dog is actually super critical to behavior work. The other thing is, in my opinion, when you play with your dog, what you're able to tell them is that everything's okay and that you're on their side. And to be able to communicate that is a big deal. So if I'm with somebody and I'm feeling a little nervous, they can absolutely hand me something to eat. I mean, it will certainly distract me. But if they put their hand on my shoulder and tell me, you know what? It's okay. It's going to be okay. I'm right here with you. That's a completely different level of support. And I think being able to play with your dog will, especially with an anxious dog, will take you in the right direction. What about me as the human or the handler? Is play really all about the dog or are there benefits for me too? A few years ago, I was going to give a, not a webinar, a presentation on play to an audience. And I thought it might be a tough sell, that particular audience. And so I felt the need to have a little bit of background and backup for my assertion that I think play is important. And I sure hope nobody contacts me and asks me for the information now because I don't have it anymore. But I found quite a few studies which talked about the effects on both the dog and the handler on mutual interaction. So in some cases, the interaction was simply looking at each other. In other cases, it was playing together. Sometimes it was about playing ball or whatever. And there was just a lovely thread of discussions about how the hormones on both sides of the picture here for both the dog and the human, the happy hormones went up, the sad hormones went down. And the end result is a more content picture. And like I said, I don't have that anymore. But I'm sure if somebody wants to investigate it, they can find that information again. Yeah, that would be interesting to look up some of that stuff and be able to point to some

of those studies. So I know that you also teach engagement, obviously. So do you mind just talking a little bit about how play or being able to play with your dog can impact or influence your engagement training? And maybe just start out with a little bit of explanation on what engagement training is for those who may not know. Yeah, the word engagement's a little bit complicated because when we say to engage another, we simply mean to mutually interact. When I talk about engagement training, I'm actually talking about a very specific training process which teaches the dog that it's their responsibility to let the handler know, first of all, when they're comfortable, and secondly, that they would like to work. And the second part of that involves the dog engaging the handler in play or strong interactive behaviors. So an example of play would be that the dog play bows at the human and the human responds. An example of just a strong behavior might be that the dog jumps on the person. So there's variations. And I teach engagement online. And I find that students who already have developed some repertoire of play with their dog have a much easier time of it. Because first of all, it actually occurs to their dog to offer play because engagement is a shaped process. It crosses the dog's mind that maybe they should ask the owner to play and see what happens next. So that's a huge benefit right there. And the handlers who don't have play training or some comfort with play, they struggle. Not only do their dogs not think to offer it, but even if their dog does think to offer it, they don't know what to do next. And so now it sort of stops the process of training engagement. And we redirect into the process of training play. And while that's not terrible, I just find that most people came into engagement class to learn engagement. And the ones who came in with play already make a lot more progress on that skill. And the ones who have to sort of stop and redirect simply don't go as far. Now, that's no emergency. But for sure, having play skills will make your engagement training easier. So let's assume that some of the folks listening are convinced. They want to give this a go. They want to focus on trying to play more with their dog. Where should they start? What are some good ways to start play, especially if it hasn't been a big part of life with their dog kind of before now? Well, right off the bat, wild and crazy is probably not the direction you want to go. Generally, when people think about play, they think they're going to imitate how dogs play with each other.

And that's kind of that's a little unrealistic in terms of a place to start. So unless you're five years of age, you are not going to run around the backyard like a crazy person with your dog. And even if you did, your dog would think that was so bizarre and out of character that you would actually be likely to frighten your dog. And then I've noticed that people get a little intense and nervous because that's not the response they were looking for. And that's when they start to sort of, for lack of better word, assault their dog. So then they come up and start they call it playfully. But anyway, they start pinching and pulling and doing weird things. And then that drives the dog further into avoidance. So rule number one, start low key. I find it so much more effective to start with what we would normally call praise rather than play. Pet your dog, scratch their ears gently and sweet. Now, from there, can you ratchet that up to look something like what happens when you walk in the front door and your dog is glad to see you? So maybe you went from a gentle massaging type interaction. Let's call that a one or two out of 10 to something a little bit more. Oh boy, you're home, mom. I'm so glad to see you. Let's say that's in your three to six range, depending on your dog. Can you start to get that behavior you get at the front door in your play session when you don't have that context? So what do you do at the front door? How do you interact with your dog? Do you clap? Do you pat them? Do you talk to them? What happens? And what does your dog look like at that moment? What kind of an expression does your dog have? All of that should feel fairly natural and seamless to most people. From there, we can start ratcheting up and little taps and running away. So that brings me to my second rule of thumb. I generally strongly suggest that people try to figure out on a scale of one to 10, what energy level is your dog showing you right now? And can you match that plus or minus one? So if your dog's being kind of crazy and you don't really want to hang out at a 10 with a great Dane, the problem is you can't go to a one because you're not going to register and your dog's going to leave you. So can you get to a nine and then quickly to an eight and a seven and a six and a five? And from my point of view, it's perfectly legitimate to put a toy in the dog's mouth or use food for redirection if it's really rambunctious and you need to get your dog to a level that's more sustainable for both of you. But using the matching system, the number system helps a lot.

It helps people match their dog and stay in the game without it getting out of control. Feeling free to add food and toys if you need to. This is a little bit new for me. A few years ago, I tried to do a lot more without that and I don't do that as much. And also starting on the low end of the scale and working your way up. That is also something that I would say is new to me over time. I have discovered that works much, much better for all parties. And then the final thing I would mention is really watch for signs that your dog isn't having a good time and take your dog seriously. Respect that. So if you can get one great minute, that's fantastic. Just stop. Don't go for five or 10. And if your dog says they want a little break, honor that. It's not personal. Your dog didn't take a break because they think you're horrible. Your dog took a break because he needed one. And he recognized that he was struggling with his own arousal. Too high, too low, whatever. If you pursue, you will drive your dog into avoidance. So I think I would start with that package and see where that gets you. Do you mind just talking a little bit more about that toy piece? Like what made you kind of change your mind or like how can people use that in a way that it doesn't become all about the toy? Well, I think a lot of it was simply safety. Dogs can hurt us with their teeth, whether they mean to or not. And if you give the dog a toy and they chomp on the toy instead of on your arm, that's obviously a lot more pleasant. And I mean, there's all sorts of other things that go with that, you know, habits and teaching your dog that it hurts when you bite them, all kinds of stuff. The problem is asking a dog not to use their mouth and play is a lot like asking a human child not to use their hands. That is how dogs communicate with each other. It's how they communicate in play. And so if we're going to do that, we're going to have to spend a lot of time teaching them how to do that. So in the same way that if you tried to teach a child to play with their hands behind their back, while doable, if you gave them something to hold in their hands behind their back while they were doing that, they would be much more likely to remember. And it would give them something to do with their hands, right? To grip a thing. If you give the dog something to hold and they have those urges to bite down or to grab, they have something in their mouth already. So with Lyra, I don't think I tried to play with her without a toy in her mouth until she was probably two years old.

And what I discovered is after that time, we had made enough progress that she didn't need it anymore. And so then when the toy was out of her mouth, she didn't have that desire to grab me. She knew what to do. And the time when the toy was in her mouth gave both of us time to learn how to play with each other and kept us out of over arousal situations while we were learning the game. So it solves a lot of problems. Now, if the dog says it's all about the toy, if the toy is in my mouth and let's play with it, that's actually not that much of a problem. What I do is I will pull on the toy, let's say every 10 seconds, just enough to keep the dog holding it. But the rest of the time is spent quick little tap, run away, little play bow, clapping, finding ways that the dog keeps the toy in their mouth, but redirects their energy to me. Uh, when I say the dog holds a toy, I don't mean you never touch the toy. And I don't mean it's not okay to play with the toy a little. It's a balance issue. So let's say the first day it's 50, 50, 50% of the time you're playing with the toy and 50% of the time you're playing with the dog. The next day, could you get that to 48, 52? So over time, can you get it to the point where it's 10% toy, 90% dog? And eventually, can you get it where you take the toy away from the dog, play with the dog for 10 seconds, and then go get the toy together and go back to your 90% playing with the dog, 10% toy. So that's how I'm approaching it these days. That's really interesting to kind of hear how you've evolved that concept a little bit. So what about those people who want to do this? They try to play with their dog and their dog just doesn't seem to be interested. You know, what might be going on there? And, you know, is there still hope that they can figure this out, that they can do this? Well, there's definitely hope. I'm actually amazed at how many people who go through the play class make significant progress when they were pretty sure they weren't going to get anywhere. And in fairness, I have read some introductions where my initial reaction was, this is going to be really hard. And most people progress. Now, I define progress exactly as that word states. It's progress. I'm not a goal-oriented person. So what I'm looking for is, did we move forward? And if we moved forward, I'm probably pretty happy. And I find most of my students get there. So is there hope? Absolutely, positively. Might it look the way you thought it was going to look? Might it look like your neighbor's dog? Well, maybe, but that's not really the point. It doesn't need to look like your neighbor's dog.

It needs to work for you and your dog. And honestly, if that never gets past the point where you are able to scratch your dog's head and thump your dog's side, even though you're in the middle of a training session and you have access to food and toys and your dog knows it, I'm happy. Because as soon as I can get the dog off that look of don't touch me, I want my food and toys, I'm going to be happy. That, to me, is a huge success. So rethink your goals and make sure that you're really being reasonable. And I think you will progress. If people kind of want to see some examples of this stuff, if they're having a little trouble picturing it, because some of this stuff is complex and it's a little hard to kind of visualize, can you talk about where they might be able to go to find some of those examples, which pieces of this you kind of cover in class? This particular class, I believe, has over 100 videos. It's incredibly dense and complex. And one of the cool things about the class itself is the active students, the ones that are learning. Every term, I learn a new way to play with a dog. Somebody does something I've never seen before and I go, oh, I never thought to cover the dog with a towel and snap it off. I never thought to cover myself with a towel and let the dog find me. So little things like that, it's a constant process of evolution. Deb Jones and I did write a book on the topic of play. So the third book in the Dog Sports Skills series is on the topic of play and has an awful lot of detail. Having said that, I would say that between a class and a book, this is something I think you make a lot more progress if you watch videos because it is so second by second. So that is one place where I think video would serve you well. I've never actually searched YouTube for videos of playing with a dog. But you know what? If you are not interested in taking classes, that's not your cup of tea. And you don't really want to sit down with a book. The first thing I would probably do is go to YouTube and search playing with a dog. And something has got to come up. And I mean, it has to, right? This day and age, there's so much out there. That's probably where I would start. And the second thing I would do if I really wanted to go at myself is just go back through this podcast because I gave you a lot of places to work from and a lot to start with. And just give it a shot. See what you get. If you and this podcast feeling inspired to try it, then you're halfway there already.

So I was actually going to add to that, if you don't mind, that I think that some of the team videos have some really nice examples of engagement. And some of the samples of engagement have really nice pieces of play in them if people wanted to see some additional examples. And that's just on the team site for free. Yeah, not only that, I forgot about that. The FENZ Team Players Facebook list is very active. And a couple, three weeks ago, I did do a flash challenge on the topic of engagement. And so many people did put up their examples of working on engagement. And because it was a flash challenge, I respond to those videos. So I would have given my input and my thoughts on that. So that would have been play more specifically focused towards engagement and work. But regardless, you got to see play there. So maybe join that list. And that list is free, right? So if anybody can join that, they're welcome to join. Sure. And then I guess just kind of a last question here. If somebody does want to take the class, is there anything, you know, is there a dog that's good for the class or maybe not a good fit for the class? Is there anything they should kind of think about from that stance? Well, this term, I probably have the widest variety of dogs off the top of my head that I've ever had. So let me think about it. I have a Great Dane, a Mastiff. Then I have some more typical dogs, Sheltie, Corgi. Then I have some teeny guys. I've got a Chihuahua, a softer, more fragile dog. I have a small mix. I think she said it was 10 or 11 pounds. I do believe there might be an Aussie in there, a Corgi. I have much greater size discrepancies than I've ever seen before. So I've got the tiniest and the largest, which is kind of fun and interesting. I have non-players. I have dogs that have shown no interest whatsoever in a toy. And actually, those dogs, the first week's lectures, the ones that have been released this week, are all about toy play. So we are focused on toy play right now. But I've seen the baselines for all types of play. And so right off the bat, the toy play is going really, really well. And the owners are kind of excited because they're seeing things they hadn't expected. Next week, around the 9th or so, is when I start releasing the personal play lectures. And having seen the baseline, there is going to be a little of everything. There are going to be dogs that tend towards overarousal. And there are going to be dogs that think it's all kind of crazy and don't want to stay in the game at all, maybe showing avoidance. And I think there will be some middle ground as well.

So my personal preference when I teach a class is an incredible variety of dogs. And when people join the class, I really try to encourage them to understand that there are no good dogs or bad dogs. There are just dogs. So it's okay. The responses your dog gives you, they're not right responses or wrong responses. They're just the response that the dog gave you. And we can just keep changing direction. That's no problem. We explore and look for what works for a more serious dog, a more anxious dog. Not an aggressive dog, but an assertive dog. And try to find our way, find a route that makes you love your dog a little bit more and makes your dog think you're just a wee bit more interesting than they did yesterday. Which does bring up a point I meant to say. And I forgot it. In my experience, when I go back and read my survey results for this class, probably the most common thing that people say to me at the end of class is that they're surprised at how much more their dog watches them in life. So without being trained to do so, the dog simply finds them more worth their while than they did before. And the dog checks in more. So when they go on walks, the dog just checks. Are you coming? What are you doing? And the dog just seems to recognize that they offer more than Pez dispenser style training. They're more than a food dispenser or a toy machine. They are a valuable person who needs more than the next person. And if I get that feedback, if I get that result, then I have won. I feel very good about that. That's awesome. And I think that that's a great point. There's kind of some really great gems in there for people that want to kind of tease them out. Well, thank you so much, Denise, for coming back on the podcast. It was great to chat again. It's always great to be here, Melissa. Thank you. And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week, this time with Julie Flannery. And we'll be talking about the things no one ever told you in puppy class. That is, we'll be diving into some of my favorite topics. So handler mechanics, verbal cues, all those types of things. And guys, this week, I kind of have a special request. So if you listen to the podcast or you listen to other podcasts, I'm sure you've heard people say this. But reviews in iTunes have a huge impact on helping new people find the show. And letting iTunes know that our show is actually worth listening to. So if you've enjoyed this or any of the previous ones, I would really appreciate it personally if you could take a minute, just go into iTunes and leave us a review.

And if you haven't already, subscribe while you're there. And our next episode will automatically download to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fensi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fensi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. We'll see you in the following. Thank you.