E201: 니콜 위부시(Nicole Wiebusch) - "뒷마당을 넘어"

We did well and got a couple more or got another leg towards our rally championship title. So that was fun. And then I have Excel. So he's about three and a half. And he has Strive Sun. And we're just really kind of working on everything with him. He was able to earn some virtual titles this past year, which was great. But I wasn't ever able to get him into an actual ring at an in-person show. I did do an agility trial, though. So that was fun. We just did a really laid back agility trial this summer. So with Excel, I'm just, you know, really pulling everything together. He's so close to being able to go into the ring. You know, we're just kind of working on some generalization stuff and some distraction stuff. And then we also have Kira, who is a almost four-year-old black lab. And she belongs more to my husband. And then my kids kind of train her and work with her, too. Awesome. So I wanted to chat today about your new class and the schedule for February, Beyond the Backyard, Distraction Training for Competition and Real Life. So the name is from the book, Denise Rose, right? Can you talk a little about what led you to adapt it into a class? Sure. Yeah. So the basic idea of the class and the first part of the name is from Denise's book. We kept the Beyond the Backyard part because I like that. And what I wanted to do, I love the book. And it's really good for pet people. And I wanted to just bring in a little bit more for our competition dogs because this stuff is so relevant to our competition dogs. So I, you know, I kind of have added some stuff for that. Um, the distraction training is important for every dog, whether it's a pet dog, because you want your pet dogs to listen when you're out and about, or your dog sports dog, where they need to listen, you know, and maybe an environment that's very distracting and doesn't offer a lot of reinforcement. Uh, a while back in the last few years, I've taught a version of this class in person and the students loved it. They were just really happy and amazed with what their dogs could do in just a six week time period. And so I knew that I wanted to, to come up with an online version of this that was geared towards pet people and sports dog people. Um, I think there's a huge need out there for a really nice step-by-step bite-sized training plan. And this class covers both increasing distractions and reducing reinforcement, which those are both really important for all dogs. Awesome. Can you share just a little more? Um, I know you kind of mentioned high view kind of what the class covers, but can you just share a little more on that? Sure.

Um, so one of the big parts of the class is we teach dogs to work in the presence of distractions. Um, and, uh, we start with food distractions because they're easy to use as distractions, but then later on in the class, we get into other types as well. So I want to teach the dog. It's still rewarding to work in the presence of this, the distractions and, um, show the dog that it would be good for the dog to do that. Um, the, the way we teach this, it, it teaches the dogs to redirect back to us after a distraction, which is a wonderful skill. I mean, imagine if something distracted your dog and their natural tendency was to look back at you. That's something that we really like. It's a good thing. So that really kind of, um, works on that premise to teach the dogs to redirect back to us. And then it also teaches the dog that where the reward is, is irrelevant, that it might be in our bodies. It might be across the room. It might be out in the car. It might be at the kennel. It doesn't matter. I can go get it whenever I want. And the dog will eventually get rewarded. And so that's kind of the whole reducing reinforcement piece of it. Um, that the dog doesn't need the cookie in your pocket in order to be able to do the behavior or the cookie in your hand or anything like that. It doesn't matter where the reward is. It's accessible. And that's all the dog needs to know. So it does a really nice job kind of touching on those three main points. Um, and then we just kind of, you know, go into more detail from there. So I think most of us have kind of had to face the sobering fact that just because our dog can do something at home, it doesn't mean he's going to be able to do it kind of out and about in the real world. Um, are there, you know, common misconceptions or misunderstandings that maybe lead sports competitors to struggle more than necessary with kind of that piece of training? I think this is a hard one for a lot of trainers because we all just expect our dogs to generalize. We're all like, well, if we teach a sit here, it should mean sit wherever we are at. And dogs as a general rule, they just, they're not great at that concept of generalization. So we have to show them sit means sit here and it means sit over there and it means sit in the backyard and it means at the dog park. We kind of have to teach them that concept. And then once we have, once we've done several locations with our behaviors, then the dogs do fine after that. Um, but it, it really is important that we teach our dogs how to generalize and then we teach them these behaviors in different environments.

So I think that's a big part of, um, people's frustration is they're like, well, I mean, I did all this stuff at training class and my dog is perfect, but then I take them to a run through or the ring and you know, the dog's not there anymore. So that's good. Um, I also think that oftentimes we're like, okay, we taught this big, long behavior, say like sun articles or signals or something that's a complicated behavior. And then we take it down the road and the dog, like we don't break it down at all. We just expect the dog to do the whole thing. So I think that concept of splitting out things, especially in new locations, when your dog is first learning generalization is really important. Uh, and then I just, you know, kind of related to that. I just think we push them too fast. Sometimes we just expect too much of them. We think they can do it because they've showed us they can do it in, in our houses or in our training buildings, but then we get disappointed when we get out in the, in the real world with those real life distractions and all of a sudden they can't do it anymore. So how do you kind of begin to introduce that idea of, you know, you can work even though there's a distraction present. So we start really, really simply in class and there's never, the distraction is always really obvious. Like we walk into the room at the training area and we show the dog the distraction. You know, I, I say, here are a bunch of treats and I'm putting them right here. Um, so there's never any light. We're not trying to hide the distraction where we're making it obvious. And then we're setting up a situation where the dog can be successful and where they can get a reward. And once you start down that path, you can start to, you know, increase different bits of criteria and difficulty with the exercise. But once the dog understands, Oh, look, there's cookies on the counter. Mom asked me to sit. I sit and she gives me a couple of cookies. Once they get that, that they can get rewards. Even when there's cookies right there, you can just, it's amazing how much you can do with that at that point. Um, by starting really simple and setting them up for success, you know, by the end of this class, you're asking them for more complicated behaviors in different places without rewards on your body. So it's, um, it just gives you a nice step-by-step plan, but we do, we, it's right away. It's from the distractions. It's like, here you go. These are your cookies. Um, and you have them set up so the dog cannot get the cookie. So they're usually up on something plus the dogs on a leash.

And then if they don't listen, there's just a little process that we go through if they're not able to do it. And we tweak some things to make it easier for them. And then, um, you know, we ask for that like super easy behavior again. So generally, um, starting off really simple, you can get it and you can just build on that. Once you have something, you can build on it. At what point do you kind of look at a behavior and go, okay, this behavior is ready to hit the road or, you know, this behavior is ready for us to try, start trying it or working with it in a new place. So this class, it'll take you through the entire process of what should happen before you even leave your training area. So we actually don't even go to new locations until week five. The first four weeks is spent, uh, first we, we teach them a simple behavior in the training area. And when they can do a simple behavior in the presence of distractions, we do other simple behaviors. Um, and then eventually we add different types of distractions, higher value trees. Uh, we start moving the treats around the room. So the distractions are in different areas. Then we start moving our dogs around the room. So we're asking for the same behaviors, but we're in a different part of the room. Um, and we just keep going through this step. There's higher value distractions. We start to add in duration behaviors. We eventually start doing some behavior chain stuff where we're asking for multiple behaviors before there's a reward. Um, the distractions get closer. So that's going to be, you know, a lot more difficult. We put them right down on the dog's nose level. Um, and then eventually towards the end of week four, we're getting into uncontrolled distractions. So like just cookies on a chair that aren't covered or aren't, um, aren't in a container or, um, you know, something along those lines or like somebody else holding the cookies. And then eventually we get to the uncontrolled dog. So the dog is off leash and the cookies are, are not controlled. And so they, they have this choice. They could go, go to it if they want, but they don't because they know what's expected. So we do all that stuff before we hit the road. And we do it with several different behaviors. Um, one thing I should mention is basically the only prereq for this class is that you need to have maybe three or four solid behaviors where you could stand in your living room with cookies in your hand and cue your dog and they'll do it. So it doesn't, I mean, they don't need to be able to do it without treats or anything,

but they need to know, like if you say sit with a cookie in your hand, they need to know that sit means I put my butt on the ground. Um, and so it's going to be important to have those. And then as you work through this process, you can be teaching other behaviors as well. And you can kind of add them into your, I have everybody make a list of these are the behaviors you're going to use for this class. And then you can add that in. But as you get through, you know, some of the obedience stuff, um, the more complicated stuff, you can start using, you know, kind of those longer behavior chains and stuff too as your behaviors. So that's kind of nice. But we, uh, we really go through the whole process before we actually get out and, uh, and out and about in new locations. So what should we think about, you know, when it does become time to get out and about, um, what should be, what kind of factors or what should we be considering when it comes to choosing locations, especially because these behaviors may still be a little bit fragile, even though we've done all this work at home? Um, you know, how do we, how do we kind of choose an environment that sets our dog up for success? I think we can be really thoughtful in how we go about increasing, um, the difficulty of the location in which we're training. So if, if you do say, say your living room is kind of your training area and that's where you teach most of your behaviors and the dog is used to it. Um, I want to be able to go in the kitchen and maybe a little more going on. Maybe there's food cooking, you know, or maybe someone's in the kitchen, but I want to be able to go there and get the behaviors. And then I want to be able to go maybe in the basement or in the rec room or whatever else. Um, once I can see that my dog can do it pretty well in a few different places in the house, then I'm going to take them outside, but I'm not going to start at the park down the road. I'm going to start like in the backyard. I'm going to start in the quietest outside place that I have. And I'm going to kind of see where the dog is at. And if they're doing well, then maybe I'll go to the front yard where there's people walking by or there's cars or stuff like that. Um, so I'm very, very systematic in how I change locations and introduce new locations, going to, you know, a busy park or a dog park or a dog show. That's going to be the very, very end of my training. And the dog will have already been exposed to these behaviors in so many different scenarios that it won't be a big deal at that point.

So, um, you want to be really careful that you're, you're thoughtful in how you raise the criteria of your location. So don't go from super quiet to super busy. Um, and then the other thing is just to, you know, to build on success. So if your dog can't do it in the front yard with your neighbors out in their front yards, then obviously he's not going to be able to do it at a dog show or a really busy park. So going back kind of to the next, next, uh, or the least difficult distraction, like go back a step, um, to your backyard, for instance. Um, and kind of working through that a little bit more before it's kind of like you want to check all the boxes before you continue. You know, you can't expect your dog to struggle in your front yard and then go do it successfully in a more distracting location. So you mentioned this kind of earlier, this idea that, you know, when we are in a new location, we should, um, break things down a little bit or make things a little bit easier for your dogs. Do you have any tips on how to kind of adjust that criteria when we're working on generalization? Yeah. So what I want to see from the dog, um, I want to see confidence and I don't necessarily want to lose a lot of criteria. And so that's asking a lot, right? But what I do is I break down things. So, you know, let's say just for an example, I'm working on, say I'm working on my friends and my friends are getting really good, no platforms or anything, but then I go out somewhere else. Let's say I'm going through a run through for the first time. Um, I will probably bring my platform or some sort of a prop, something that my dog's familiar with. Um, I might reward earlier, you know, I might, um, break it down and reward the stay and then do some really short fronts. So I'm going to break down things because I still want to train to that, the level of precision that I've decided that I want. So precision isn't always, you know, obviously with the pet dog, you just, your, your precision is the dog putting his butt on the ground and, you know, sitting in front of you. Um, but I don't want to see, like, I don't want to see a huge drop in criteria. So this kind of goes back to the, to the last thing I said about listening to your dog. I want to see that the dog is confident and is like, yep, I get it. I can do it. And until I get that, I'm not going to do a lot with generalization. I'm not going to continue working in new places and finding harder places to work until I have that in the current situation. So, um, so yeah, I just, you know, it's all about breaking down the behaviors and listening

to the dog and just making sure that the dog understands, um, that, yeah, it means the same thing here that it does in the living room. And I know this and I got it. And then when I see that confidence, then, then I'll start to push him a little bit. Um, we've been talking about generalization, but you also mentioned that a big piece of the class is getting cookies off your body. Can you kind of talk to that a little more, just kind of how you approach that or kind of what that looks like? Sure. So first we start with cookies in our pocket. Well, we have them in our hands, you know, initially at the very beginning, and then they're in our pocket. Um, the cookies will go out on a chair or on a table and then across the room. Um, and then eventually the cookies are hidden. So you will have the reward cookies somewhere in the room and you haven't showed them to the dog yet. And then you come in and ask for behavior in the presence of a distraction. And then you go reward the dog from this cookie stash that they didn't know existed. So the dog starts to understand, Oh, even if I don't see her place cookies somewhere that she still can get them, you know, they're still accessible. She can always make cookies appear. That's kind of what I wanted to think. So, um, kind of going through that process is really helpful, obviously just to get the cookies off your body. But then we also teach in this class how the distraction can be a reward. And we also teach that that's not always a reward, but we show the dog, um, different scenarios in which the distraction can be a reward. And in the beginning, when we start that process, it's the cookies that we're using as the distraction. And as we get into the last couple of weeks, we potentially use other things like, um, people like if the dog is really distracted by people, we can work on, um, you know, using saying hi to them as a reward for being calm or not jumping up or whatever. And then we also cover, um, right after that, we cover not teaching them that the, the, the people, the distraction is not always a reward. Cause obviously you don't want your dog to think that every person could possibly be a reward. That's not a good thing for a performance dog in particular. So, um, we kind of work through that process. And then we at towards the end of the class, the last couple of weeks, we're talking about rewards other than cookies. So that would be like, if your dog loose leash walks to the lake, the reward could be the swimming. Or if your dog, you know, sits to go outside and waits at the door nicely, the reward could be going outside.

So we really try to incorporate in things that the dog already wants to do and, and, and kind of use that to, um, not really replace the cookies, um, but just to cut down on the cookies. And especially for, for the pet dogs, people don't want to have cookies. They're going to have cookies on them all the time forever for competition dogs. We're usually, you know, rewarding them throughout their careers with some sort of an intermittent schedule, but, um, pet people aren't necessarily going to do that. So we talk about how to, how to change over the rewards. So they're, um, more of the life rewards, you know, the, the different things that the dog wants to do anyway. So kind of overall, if we were to kind of zoom out a little bit, you know, how similar different is the class from the book. If somebody already has the book, can you, can you talk a little more about kind of how you put your own spin on some of this? Sure. Um, the class encompasses most of the ideas in the book. I think it's a really solid training plan. And I really love how Denise did such a great job of breaking it down into super simple steps. So if you follow those steps and you don't move on until your dog is ready, like it's a plan for success. You almost can't help, but be successful with your dog. So it kind of follows a similar plan to that, but I wanted to bring in just a little bit more about competition dogs. And so there are specific lectures, um, where we talk more about competition stuff. So we're talking about distraction training geared more towards like having a judge in the ring or having other dogs and other people in the environment and be able to being able to work amongst that. Um, we spend some time working on a strong eye contact foundation. So one of the things that I want to teach the sports dogs is you see the distraction. You respond to that by making eye contact with your handler. And then eventually we teach them at that point, they'll get the cue to work and they'll be able to work and the earn reinforcement through the work. So we do, you know, a little bit more, um, with the, you know, the eye contact and, and just, just, um, some specific, um, distractions at the competitions to competition dogs, maybe a little bit more prone to. Um, so we just try to, you know, break that out some more. And we talk specifically, there's a lecture on, um, other people and how to teach the dogs, um, to ignore the other people and to work with that distraction. And then there's another one on dogs. Cause I know those are the really hard ones.

Um, we talk a little bit about, you know, the pressures of the judge and that kind of stuff and how to ignore that. Uh, and then the other thing that we do, most of this class can be, can be done with nobody else with no, without a helper. But there are some lectures, um, that are optional, but they require a helper. And for your competition dog, it's going to be really, really important to go through those because it's stuff like the helper holding the treat and then you rewarding the dog for making eye contact with you. And then we move on to the helper holding a distraction, a treat distraction. And then we cue the dog to do a sit and then we reward the dog. Um, so, you know, we do a lot more of that kind of stuff that kind of, it mimics more what the dog's going to come across, like with the judge following them around or with the judge standing there with the clipboard. So, um, that's kind of how, you know, how it really does differ a little bit and go, just go into a little more detail than the book. Um, but it, uh, you know, overall it does encompass most of, most of the ideas in the book, uh, because I really like how it was laid out and I really like how, uh, it's just a simple step-by-step plan. So for those listening who are kind of thinking about the class and whether or not it's for them, can you talk a little on kind of who, who's a good fit for the class, who the class might be a good fit for? And actually I've gotten several emails, um, and they've all been about the exact same thing. Dogs that, um, struggle with other dogs, you know, dogs that have big feelings about other dogs. And they've asked me, is this appropriate for a dog like this? And, and, um, and I do think it is, I, I, I kind of responded and I explained that we're going to be teaching them as this training plan, but then you can apply this to any situation, any distraction. Um, and I've used a lot of the stuff with, with Excel, my youngest, who has very big feelings about other dogs and it's really worked well with him. Um, so I think, um, you know, if you kind of have that problem, I want to be a little careful cause I don't want, um, I don't think it's best for dogs that are like super fearful or anxious. And I don't think it's best for dogs that are really reactive. I think a little bit of, you know, frustration. Oh, I want to go see the dog. I'm pulling on the leash type thing is fine. I think this would be really helpful for you. But I think if your dog completely explodes every time he sees another dog a hundred feet away, then this isn't the best fit for that particular situation.

Not saying you might, you know, those types of dogs and owners will get a lot out of the class, but not specifically to work on that reactivity issue. So I'm looking for, uh, you know, like pet or competition dogs that struggle listening outside of the household. So maybe if you have a dog, it's so good in the house with treats, but then you walk out the door and he just loses his mind. Um, that, that, that this class will be good for that. Um, it would be good for, you know, teaching those dogs how to, how to work through the distractions and be able to listen even when they go outside. Um, any of the dogs that can do anything anywhere with cookies in your pocket, but then the cookies disappear and the dogs, like, I don't know what sit means. I've never heard that word in my life. That is going to be another good type of dog that, that would do well in this class. Um, and like I mentioned earlier, you know, your dog just needs to have a few behaviors that are solid in your house with cookies in your hand. Um, so it's important that you have that cause you need some behaviors to work with. You can't come in with an eight week old puppy that knows absolutely nothing. But, you know, after the puppy's a few weeks old and has a sit and a touch and a spin or whatever it is, um, doesn't matter what behavior it is. It only matters that you can cue it and that you have some sort of criteria for it to know if the dog did it or not. That's all. Um, so any, you know, any, any dog like that, um, has a few behaviors, you know, three or four, we're not talking a huge number because you can add them as the dog learns. There's new things you can add to your list. Um, and that, you know, just need some help learning to listen anywhere. I think it'd be good for, for any dog like that. Awesome. So last question for you, what's something that you've learned recently or that you've been reminded of, uh, kind of related to training? Well, I've been spending a lot of time the last month or so working on lectures for this particular class. And as I mentioned earlier, it's set up in a way that if you follow the steps and if you listen to your dog, it's almost impossible to fail. And I've been, um, you know, going through the videos with my own dogs. So I have videos for the lectures and it just, I mean, this is something I know, but it just really reminded me of the importance of listening to your dog. And, you know, kind of making sure that your dog is confident and happy at the level that they're at before you go on to the next step. Um, if you skip steps in this class, it's going to be really easy to fail.

And when you start to get towards the uncontrolled dog or the uncontrolled distractions, failing, failure is not good at that point. It's going to happen. And it's not a big deal. Um, if it happens once, but obviously you don't want the dog, you know, the treats are right there on the floor and you tell the dog to sit and the dog's like, hang on a minute. Let me go grab these treats first. That's not a good thing to practice. That likely is not going to happen though, if you follow all the steps and if you make sure your dog's ready. So both through this class and just life in general, this is so important. Um, you need to listen to your dog and to make sure that they're ready to move on before you raise criteria, before you go to the next step. So I think that's what I've been thinking about, you know, the most, um, it's interesting going through the different dogs that I have because, you know, like Excel has such a good foundation on a lot of the stuff already that even though I haven't specifically done these exercises, he's flying through them. But you know, like Kira, the lab, she doesn't really have a lot of foundation at all. So for her, it's a lot harder. Things are, are, you know, taking a lot, a lot longer to, um, to stick with her. So I have to be really careful to make sure that she understands where we're at before we continue on to the next step. Awesome. Um, well, that's a good reminder to kind of end on, I think. So thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Nicole. Oh, thanks so much, Melissa. It was a lot of fun. And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with Petra Ford to talk about her new FDSA class on optimal drive states for training and competition. Don't miss it. If you haven't already subscribed to our podcast and iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensounds.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in. Happy training. Deoscanoos. Thank you.