에피소드 6 이칼라는 잊어버려라

things about the system that maybe go UN untalked about like that's I feel like that's our role you know and and mo modern dog training in general even is shedding light on the areas that get overlooked or get swept under the rug because they're either taboo to talk about or people just don't have a great understanding and can't teach them very well so I think that's where our role fits fits really well for our viewers is helping them understand things that are a little bit more nuanced um and I was I was on social media today and give me one second while I pull this up I read a a post by a guy who I really like I'm friends with him um and I like his stuff but uh it it showed me a little bit of bias which is pretty common in the dog industry uh I want to oh now now it's not pulling it up but I read something that's pretty common for a lot of people to think um dang so I'm not finding it but essentially in part of the post it was a post addressed to to newcomers to dog training newcomers to dog Sport and in part of the message he shared a comment that said you know this is how you evaluate who you should take advice from you know are are these people that you're looking to take advice or criticisms from are they people who've done something have they titled a dog before have they accomplished something with their own dogs are their own dogs an example of the type of dog that you want to be able to train to that level and which is all good information it's because in dog training there is no government regulated like it's not like a medical doctor you can go to Harvard Medical School and say oh I'm a medical doctor I can perform x y and z surgeries I can prescribe medications um you know dog trainers don't have that uh for better and worse uh but that's not the topic of our podcast um and he said the other the other criteria was like does their dog always have a e collar around its neck or are they a relationship based dog trainer and this is kind of piggybacking off of you know in our last episode that that uh post where the guy suggested that everyone should trial someone else's dog to see if the dog will still perform behavior for love of behavior instead of Love of the the owner I I kind of was like ah I was a little disappointed that that was included in the criteria because you know my guess is that in his kitchen he's probably got a fire hydrant or not a fire hydrant a fire extinguisher under his sink or somewhere in the kitchen vicinity right just because you love to cook doesn't mean you always expect to use your fire extinguisher right um and and this goes back to that picture we

were just talking about you know like if you if you Google anybody or uh if you Google Egyptian dogs try to find the oldest hieroglyph of an Egyptian dog you can find online I mean Mike you you found one that's what what 8,000 10,000 years old 8,000 8,000 years old it was a carving on rock yeah like an inscription dogs carved out on Rock showing showing leashes or ropes around the dog's neck attached to the the hunter um you know we've used tools for thousands of years and I what the fact having having an e-collar on your dog's neck does not make you any less of a relationship based trainer or or exclude you from being a relationship based trainer I mean maybe if you're always having to use it to make a dog do then there's something different in the training well there's a difference between always having to use it yes having it there as backup right but also if you look at just look at Food okay like reward if you're rewarding your dog something that the dog is doing because you have rewarded it if you stop rewarding at some point it'll diminish right right so that's the same thing like why do you still reward your dog then every once in a while it's to keep the behavior at the same peak level okay so the same goes if you're using any kind of tool you should at some point reintroduce it just to keep it at the same peak level you know and depending on how you use the the tool but it everything it'll you know talking about Extinction everything goes extinct if you if you don't reward it I um you could argue that a very strong aversive will last longer okay but even that may at some point diminish you know so I think we talked about that before like you can remember a lot of times you don't remember the pain you felt you know when something happened to you you remember the incident but you don't remember how you felt as far as far as the pain goes right um and then of course you know people repeat stuff even if they've been punished for it you know they years later they might repeat it because they forgot how it was yeah what the consequence was but and that's the thing it's like like you said just having something on doesn't mean you're using it every single time right there's nothing wrong with if you know your dog is has a prop to maybe be flighty and they you know and you need to keep them in check maybe they're just maybe they're just that kind of dog who needs to be on the open range right you know they're a catula or it's a it's a husky who has a high Freedom requirement in its life right and they're they're prone to wandering off they're prone to running at distance then having the e-collar is the

responsible thing to do but it doesn't mean just because they're wearing it it does not mean that they require it for Behavior to be completed right I think the best I mean you know we always go back to at least I do I always go back to Bard because of how he explains things and the best explanation for that is what he said you can train a million different pictures with your dog but there's five million other pictures you haven't trained right or the other way around you can train five million pictures but there's a million pictures you haven't trained yeah and if you have that dog of course you know there's some dogs that won't even leave your side no matter what right you know they respond you don't have to do any training they just stay with you there's other dogs that are always looking outward right and people talk about relationship whatever but the dogs they want to go explore that's how they are you know talk about genetics and you can't show them every single picture and there may be something that comes along that you have not generalized and they decide oh this is something new I'm going to go check it out and then that instance you haven't trained it they don't know it something new it draws them maybe just your verble is not going to be enough right you need to have just safety in general yeah um it makes me think I mean so clearly we're talking about the history the orig of tools that and eventually it lands on this on the discussion of the e-collar and how the e-collar is the connotation of e-collar and Nao together right the you know the the the the seeming connection that people have made in the public eye that naoo is an e-collar only system right where B said it's not only about the ecoll it's not because in the early days when they I mean back when they were coming up in in Belgian ring they were training without e-collar and every sport schuten or ring you know they were training without e-c callers because e- callers hadn't been invented until like the the early 70s but they were still using tools right and and if you go back 8,000 10,000 years in Egypt the dogs the hunting dogs that were accompanying the the pharaoh's Hunters they were still on leashes and what is an e-collar other than just an extension it's a it's a longdistance leash it's a it's a method of communicating to a dog the same pressure you would do with a leash only with more finesse and more uh more options available to you it it is a superior tool in many aspects now in some aspects it might not be but I mean it's a tool where you said um you know going to like Nate poo as a system and what you said napole is a

system that doesn't rely on any single tool no because it's like fighting right it's like martial arts if you learn how to fight martial arts many of the same martial arts there's there's like you know you can take Wing Chun martial arts Kung Fu you can learn those those that system of fighting and then put a put a knife in your hand and still fight the same way and be very effective as a knife fighter you don't have to learn a separate knife fighting skill just because you box with your fists or or use your fists for punching or kicking or whatever you just put in a different tool and it still fits into that system right I mean for for for lack of a better analogy I guess um you know not to be a violent analogy here but uh you know it's it's the tool that promotes what type of trainer you are right enhances it enhances or diminishes the what you're doing with the dog correct yeah if you if you have to rely on the tool a specific tool to train I would say then that is there's a little there's a limitation in your training right doesn't mean you shouldn't use it but you should it's like I said it's not about the tool it's about the concepts of training where you use your in tool to enance those enhance those Concepts so before we get too far ahead of ourselves here talking about where we came from with dog training right so the or the origins of dog training the way now I'm not I don't have I'm not a scholar in in history but the way I the way I Envision the first dog that was taken in you know there was clearly a rope that was used to you know restrict the dogs access to certain things whether that was restricting access to you if that was a domesticated wolf restricting access to your food supply to other animals to Children you know there was some form of there was a there was a rope involved with with that I would say I would say even before that it was their their hands exactly yes you know I think that you would say the hands unless they trapped it with a rope unless the only way they could catch it was by rope right but if they were I mean that's where the argument goes I think I heard like Pat Stewart said that some they're now they're thinking that people did not domesticate dogs that dogs domesticated themselves yeah that that makes more sense so it's talkable if you go hands first before R where they threw food to the those animals the wolves or whatever they were right right through food or fed eventually fed by hand and then the wolves you know at some point they touch those animals because instead of trapping them if you're trapping the animal then it's afraid of you well want to come close so

as if you know if it voluntarily comes and then of course it never seen a rope now you have to get the Rope to to keep it with you where growing up a kid I one of my friends in my neighborhood growing up they had a ranch in Nevada up by um uh up near Elco area and on their Ranch they had a trap for like pests and controlling you know animals because they had some Livestock on their Ranch and they caught a they caught a coyote and they he took the coyote in now I'm not going to say whether I would have done the same or not but took the coyote and brought it back home and kept the coyote as a pet now if you go out and try to catch a coyote with your hands good luck right they're they're gone let alone even see one it's impossible to hunt those things because you can't even see them or get close enough to be near them to use your hands so I think for some animals like they're like I'm not arguing I'm just saying like there are probably some animals maybe some wolves or dogs that require tools before you get the hands on maybe they won't even approach you even if they know you've got food they won't approach unless they know you're gone or asleep you know your t I think the the animals approached first and then they decided to feed them you know what I mean instead of sure you you understand it's like the other side where you put the food out to trap them versus they come close and then you put the food out right yeah you throw food so who know we don't know right I agree I agree though I think dogs probably were the ones who domesticated themselves because they adapted to us rather than than us forcing them to adapt to our situations right it was a decision on their part to evolve because they found more advantage in being friendly with us because they got better quality of life working alongside of us than they did you know Scavenging on their own so right from the beginning the first tool other than the hands would would have to be the Rope but but to your point the Rope is just an extension of what you would do with your hands it just creates more distance so so that in the event that you don't want to get bit like you can deliver the same type of pressure or communication just at a distance yeah and so you don't have to use your hands because you could tie the do like a back tie right you can tie the dog somewhere and it'll stay where you're at so possibly the first use would have been as guard dogs you stake them out stake the dogs out around your camp or alerts alert dogs right they you feed them and then if something comes close they start making noise and the your alarm system right yeah even before you

start trying to train anything specific and it's important to understand where we came from with the origins of dogs in the hands of humans because I don't see a time where there was ever a dog in the care of a human that did not require the use of tools or AIDS or or equipment of sorts right it's just as time has gone on as technology has improved those tools have evolved in functionality and um obviously you know the grow like growing into different styles of leashes retractable leashes bungee leashes leashes that attach to your hip leashes that you know have specific functions you know and then growing that Beyond to the e-collar right where which is a very longdistance form of a leash it's a communication tool yeah well you have before that I mean you would have like the flat collar you'd have the a pinch collar right different types of collar harnesses yeah so it's everything is evolving always from the beginning and then when technology comes in of course technology makes things easier more efficient right and gives um yeah more lets you do more more than what you were able to do before you know so um yeah the I mean and the tools all come with advantages and disadvantages right everything that you use has something that's good about it and then something that's not so good about it and that's where it comes to the trainer to decide what is the best use of that particular tool right but that's why n PO is not about the e-collar because it's again it's what everybody talks about like train the dog in front of you but a lot of times it's train the dog that you know with other systems it's training the dog in front of you but use this right whereas nap PO is like train the dog in front of you use what you need use what is needed for that particular dog yes and know the limitations of everything you're going to use correct because there are drawbacks there are upsides and downsides to everything out there yeah and and so so for for for the criticisms or the comments or the not not call them criticisms or comments call them perceptions about the system being an e-collar only system right we do use the e-collar because it's probably one of the best tools out there for most of what we're trying to accomplish for very aesthetic looking dog behaviors but it's not it's not the end all Beall of being successful in the system because you can n poo a dog with spatial pressure with with tactile touch with your hands you know with with eye contact right yeah because it it's about pressure you know pressure and the release of pressure right everybody understands like people humans I mean dogs other animals horses I mean every

every living thing understands pressure and it's again going back to another point in one of our previous podcasts is it's not that people don't understand pressure on pressure off as a form of negative reinforcements but it's the order of operations it's pressure on pressure off followed by a Payday of sorts right whatever that dog finds positively reinforcing right that's what people haven't done and that's the formula that Nao provides the practitioner is the the guarant of behavior on Q when you call for it but with heart and soul with or without tools with or without the caller with or without leashes right because the the the the top of that pyramid I was thinking the same thing yeah because the top of the pyramid is that the dog does it for their own benefit not for your benefit yes there's no reward right and there's no stem or reinforcers of the commands there's only correction if the dog doesn't do what it already knows how to do right and the benefits of that is that when it does receive that correction or punishment it does not shut down but rather it goes more effectively into the known Behavior or the the queued Behavior it was told to do and it doesn't flatten out it doesn't diminish or extinguish Behavior that's the key always well that's what we strive for right and that's what the the system is about so yeah so this is this is good so what what are some of the um like what are the benefits of the improvements in technology for training AIDs that we use in dog training would you would you say what are some things that have been beneficial to us because of the improvements in well you mentioned one was distance right you can control the dog uh at a greater distance you can communicate with the dog at a greater distance you know look at the some of the military dogs they have the the helmets with the um speakers inside Radio Systems yeah the Handler can give you know they have a camera so they can see where the dog's at and they can give it commands of where to go or what to do when it's far away when they can't yell should yell Tactical situations so technology lets you give input to your dog at times when other things can't or are not practical to use to work right so yeah you can't yell maybe for a mile and your dog hears you but there's some things that may reach a mile right talk about you know if you want um and also you know te knowledgy and the change in tools go from personal to impersonal you know where sometimes you want it to be the communication to be personal in other times you don't want it you want the behavior of your dog to to dictate what happens so exactly I agree here's a question that you just

made me think of like while we're talking about this why do you think some people have when they label training systems based on the tools that they use or the lack of tools that they use why do you think they do that like why why is that such a big deal to people oh that's just an e-collar Based training system or oh that's a that's a force-free training system or you know what like why why are people so invested in that I think it's there's a few reasons right one is that they don't understand the other system fully they have a some understanding but it's not complete one other reason is that they they want to put down any other system other than what they use or it's more of because it makes them look better it elevates their status yeah so they want to say oh what everybody else does is wrong what I do is right so you know what's interesting because in the 19th century there was a a huge Industrial Revolution right there were a lot of uh that that was like the the Industrial Revolution was where there were a lot of machines that were being made that were making human labor a lot more effective and a lot more efficient there was a subset of people in the industrial revolution called uh they called them Lites right um leites were people who were actually destroying labor saving equipment or or labor um con uh machinery that made labor more efficient more easy and they were destroying those machines because they were fighting against the advancements of Technology because they were concerned about you know in on some scale they were concerned about oh we're going to lose our jobs to this equipment or this isn't how we've always done things we don't want to do it a different way and so they went as fars to destroy the equipment that made it possible for the the Model T right right you know the the the cars the horse and buggy um you know technology and and things that way I I feel like there's still some people out there today and I have personal experience with that because when I got involved in dog training the person who I was involved with dog training with was very much a lite like they were like they used the e-collar like maybe once in in my time I had been around them but they they they trashed it they said oh you don't need to train this you don't you don't need this this isn't a tool that anybody really needs like anyone who uses it can't train a dog they would throw shade and all sorts of like unfair criticisms against the tool or people who use the tool to get good benefits from it and it was and that was my first exposure to people and and thought process so I actually started out thinking oh yeah I

was kind of jaded I was like oh you use an ecol ah you don't need to use an ecol and then my like as I really dove in and started really wanting to expand my my knowledge my skill set I started to learn how shallow that that that ex that mindset was and and I fortunately I had the wherewithal to to change my mind and and be curious and learn more about it and learn how to use it the right way but there like so it's it's just interesting to me that people like say oh it's an e-collar only system for first of all that's false second of all what's what's wrong with it if it was right if you get dogs that do on Q every time with heart and soul what's wrong with it right yeah I mean that's the thing what is if it goes back to does the dog look good does it look like it's enjoying what it's doing does it want to be there and does it provide control the whatever tool you're using right so the dog can and learns to do it like on Q can this this you're GNA mike always gets on me because I always go off into the weeds here but I think this is a natural conversation that I want to kind of follow real quick so people for people that say oh Nao is only an ecolor training system like this the same type of mindset we just experienced this you know there were some comments on some of a uh some of our previous episodes where there were uh statements saying that oh you can't do luring and shaping together that's not possible in the system right because new NE poo is only about shaping well maybe newo includes is more inclusive of shaping but it does not eliminate because it's not new Nao it's Nao they're very there are many facets to Nao right which is like the quadrant there are many facets to the quadrant and even at the school even if you go to the school they teach you about old naoo which is strict luring right lure into a behavior Mark and pay right pressure on a little bit more of that style it requires a certain type of dog but they say they they don't rule it out and they don't say oh only shape now if you want to be an apopo practitioner you must only shape they've never said that once right so for people to Levy with anyone who has an understanding or who has exposed been exposed to the system for you to say that one or the other exists alone like no we we move in between and out of them I would encourage you to continue your journey in Nao and learn more about why that's the case because if that's what you think if it's one-sided you you haven't learned the system in its fullest and I would enourage you to continue your education and do that because you're going to unlock some other benefits to your training that will help you and

your dogs and yeah to that point like I've that's the thing I've never heard Barton Michael say you cannot lure and actually they said especially if you're a um a trainer that has a limited time right they said sometimes you have to go right away to lauring well and even in their demonstrations in the games that they show you in those shaping games have you seen him where he puts a leash on someone so he he speaks Swahili he says Chi and all the you know his his and he he does luring he lures with that B I think that was one B yeah I remember cheni is one cheni is cheni is another word it's like sit her down or stand or something like that yeah but also I mean if you go to um yeah that's the thing with luring that's the one specific thing that jumps in my mind like I said where they said when you when you might not have have as much time and you need some you need to get the dog into position to learn something you can go back to the old na pole which was luring you know straight luring but if you if you're good at shaping a lot of the stuff is fast you know and it's all about like you said ignition right and motivation once a dog has ignition like everything is fast yeah but talking about Naple poo not being about the e-collar necessarily is what of the first things we do with a puppy we use tactile pressure MH right sit down stand some people would say you cuddle it is the first thing you do with it I don't know some puppies come out of the crate and want to bite you in the face so but that's that's a form of cuddling is a form of tactile right I don't know if you're going to be uh cuddling that's why I tell people like people are like oh I don't believe in punishment right and their dog is biting them and other people in the family like not not puppy biting right like biting because they want to get something and I tell them I go your dog believes in punishment and it uses it on you all the time it understands punishment very well yeah uh but going back you know it's that's the thing about ni po it's about understanding pressure and how to use it and that's why from a puppy or any dog really you can take you can take teach sit down stand with food but also we teach them what tactile pressure means right you're always getting the dog ready to understand pressure so that later if you have to use more pressure they're not demotivated right I mean if you think about it like the the the falsehood of Nao is only an ecolor system that's that's as untrue as the statement that naoo or any other doct training system doesn't require a leash like you know it's as false as that right like it's it's a false statement and you know for

people to say oh well I can use my relationship to train a dog or I can use positive only to train a dog to do something well that's that's certainly false because you go to you go to a dog sport competition whether that's AKC obedience rally right and you see these dogs they can't even perform simple tasks like sitting as their walk as sitting out of motion and letting their dog walk away from them they can't even perform that correctly without tools on right because when you go to trial you can't use tools but I think that's again another tangent but you hear from people that don't want to use tools their argument is like oh you can't use a pinch collar in a trial right was like well you can't use food in a trial either well so you have to fade the food so you also have to fade the tool So What I Hear What I Hear What I understand when someone says I don't I don't want to use tools means I don't want to use tools the way that I would use a tool right I don't I don't use tools the way that I know how to use the tool right that's that's what kind of system that's what they're telling to me when I hear someone says oh I would never use a tool it means I would never use a tool because I the way I would use it would be an inappropriate way and therein lies the problem is that those people are uneducated about the proper use of tools right it's not that it's not that they really have a problem with the tool it's that they have a problem with how they would use the tool and the resulting consequences or Fallout from that so for those type of people if you're listening educate yourself learn how to use the tool in a way that doesn't make you cringe or or creeped out to use the tool right because that happens you you can use it with very good effect yeah and that's if you think about um going back to the e-collar there was a a podcast I listened to and they it was a force free person talking with somebody who's not force free right and the force free argument was that people will abuse the tool okay and they were talking about the e-collar in that instance sure people are going to beuse the toll but the thing they the other person I wish they had brought up uh the person that was not force free I wish they had brought up was that uh and oh going back the argument was that if you sell e-collars without training that the people are going to abuse it okay in some way now I think the the average pet owner that gets an e-collar I can tell you what happens because I go when you go to home you hear these things right so what's one one of the things that I hear oh I bought it but I never used it because I didn't know how

so yeah there's a sale if you look at the data there's a sale but they never even put it on the dog okay yeah or Point number two yeah I put it on my dog and it didn't work it didn't do anything which means there was no skin contact right they turned it up did it the dog didn't respond they put it away they never used it again right right so the first one where they never put it on the dog yeah they bought it the data shows they bought it was there abuse no right the second one they bought it the data shows they bought it they put it on the dog there was no skin contact so they turned it up pushed it a few times nothing happened they put it away was there any kind of abuse no the third they put it on the dog they push it and the dog reacted in a way they didn't like now whether it was because it was aversive to the dog or whether it was because the dog got startled the reaction they saw from the dog was not something they liked so they put it away and never used it so it one time the dog felt it and never again so the data showed they bought it was there abuse no I would argue that abuse for the most part the way that people describe it would come from trainers not actual pet owners I bet you it's trainers that don't know how to use it properly and they use it in a popon kind of way right and there's no communication with the dog yeah so yeah there's a lot of e-collar being sold because they have a timeline they they have they have deadlines to me and they only use it one way and they're not interested in learning yeah but I mean even with deadlines you can do it the right way you know but but I'm saying the deadline is what makes people hurry through it without like I think I think it's less the deadline and it's more the not knowing how to use it correctly even people that say they're trainers sure right uh may maybe yeah I can see that the whole argument on that was that there's so many e- callers that by by number there has to be so many cases of abuse but actually I don't think that happens yeah I think what I described happens more where people get it don't use it well and here's the other thing is like you never hear about all the good that happens in the world you only hear about the negative right so when someone does abuse it that's the only thing you hear about you might have one out of a million cases of abuse with an e-collar but you might have hundreds of thousands of excellent results with e- callers but you never hear about those but you only hear about the one thing that's been 10 years old the yeah two things for that the other thing is that they say they only use the tone which is not ineffective right or

the vibr it's not pressure it's not pressure unless you got a super weak dog who can't handle what I mean is the data shows the e-collar was sold but they never used the function of the e-collar right they us the tone or the but here like in Vegas in the casino thing that's one thing you hear is the people only tell you when they win they never tell you when they lose yeah on here so everything's always oh I oh I won this I won that oh I won a jackpot $2,000 they don't tell you that they lost 10,000 to get to the 2,000 day before you know going to your point where they you only hear about the bad on on dog training you only hear about the bad you never hear about the good yeah the good of the dogs being off leash having freedom you know because of tools so that this now makes us I think we should ask the question is what are the consequences of not using obviously we're talking about the correct use of tools what what are the consequences of not using tools correctly at all like mean what happens we lose the opportunity to use a tool here's an example right I want a dog but I don't want to use a leash okay I don't want to use a leash ever I don't want to train with a leash I don't I want the dog to be with me right I get the dog and I leave it off leash okay I go outside it goes in the street gets hit by a car yeah so I just go get another dog and I leave it off leash and that one get hit by a car and we go down like the fifth dog I get now this dog never leaves my side right so then I have a 8-year-old dog that's listens to everything I say and never leaves my side and they're like oh look at that you have such a nicely trained dog but is he four dogs got hit by cars but they don't know the other four dogs got hit by cars you know or but but to that point maybe you have a dog who stays by your side but what happens when you need him to leave your side to go retrieve something or go bark at something or go do something away from you and he won't now you've got another problem right yeah that's training wise but I think that's what happens pet owners that's why there's so many dogs in the pound is that the pet owners they just they recycle dogs I believe not everybody of course because there's a lot of people that you know care for their dogs but I think what they do is they either have the the ideology that oh we can't use tools on dogs but then they can't live with their dog they've created yeah eventually give it up to the rescue or to the pound or to wherever right yeah then what do they do they go get another dog and try again but if you that's the point it's like just bring in some tools and well fix the thing that keep

your dog in your house and like you said you use the tools so that you don't have the consequence that you would prefer not to have right you don't want a dead dog I want a tool on my dog so he learns to obey certain boundaries and guidelines of living in a human society so that I can prevent him from injuring himself or somebody else or his environment right it's like with kids right like we discipline and teach our kids you know like for example like i' I'm going through this right now I'm I'm in a young kid stage of my life right I got I've got my young kids and and I discipline them yeah like even at a younge age like I have to show them like their consequences for doing things that they shouldn't do do I take like do I do I enjoy that process no absolutely I don't but I know that the benefits down the road are going to bring so much better bonding with my child or my kids the communication lines the trust that we have the the respect all of that will be there down the road so the little bit of like feedback loop that I provide for consequences and and you know things like that it's so important but do I like doing it no absolutely not and some people say oh I would never do that and whether that's to a dog or to a child I would never do that or I would never discipline them or you know get in the way of that like it's hard for me to hear because that just tells me you're not being the adult like the adult should be the teacher the adult should be the the caretaker and the caregiver and provide them the opportunity to prepare them for the consequences that they'll deal with down the road for bad decisions yeah but also it's like it's people then you go to people same thing with kids and dogs yeah they say you do not need to use anything to teach your child or your dog okay and they talk about management and it's like one thing we know management no matter how good you are it will fail why do people put that have little kids why do they put locks up high on the door or child lock the door the door child locks why do they put a fence around their pool yeah when their kids are young yeah you know why don't you could you know if you wanted to and they talk about don't punish but only reward your kids and your dogs it's the it's the tell your movement in parenting these days but the thing is this if you tell your kid your kid wants to go and touch a pan that's on on the stove that's hot right scalding it's going to disfigure your kid for life if it touches it right say you can and going to Kids versus dogs you can reason with a child but not they're not mature enough to understand but you can reason with a person and you

can explain to them what will happen in the future right where a dog you can but even then with a child that can understand when you're telling them that if you touch this it's going to hurt you right it's going to burn you even with that the children still will go and touch it you can tell them a hundred times they'll still go and touch that thing yeah you know and but it's not every child because some children they do whatever you say they listen they're you know there's other children it doesn't matter what you say they're going to do what they want and that also translates to dogs right there's some dogs that are very compliant with whatever you do and there's other dogs like unless I see it for myself I don't believe you I think and that's happens with kids that's why I mean the example I'll use the example with my brother where he burned his hand on the toaster right but I guarantee you that he had heard not to touch the toaster because it's Hot 100 times before then now his trust in do not do something has become much more increased right he's increased his trust in hearing from someone else when when someone says don't do something his trust in that advice is a lot higher because of his experience touching that toaster correct but and to go to dogs like you have to you know when it's dangerous if you live on a busy street and you have to teach your dog don't run out out of the door right it's it's Animal Welfare Law it's like okay if you don't teach your dog not to go out and they get hit by the car you are responsible for that that's really your respons if you're if you're responsible for them like biting someone you're also responsible for them when they don't listen to you and they go get hurt that's also on you it's not the dog's fault it's your fault essentially for failing to train the dog to do that and people don't look at it that way yeah if you know better now some people don't know better and you know it's you can't hold someone accountable for something they don't know necessarily but you know for sake of the conversation I think it makes yeah somebody says I don't believe in training that way right well then you have to to you have to accept the consequences that come with not preparing your dog to be safe which is fine if you want to try management for the rest of your dog's life right if you want to constantly be over your dog's shoulder do this don't do this like and preventing them from access to things that you don't want them to have then yeah but that's a that's a very burdensome life to live with a pet yes big time um so we've talked a lot about the e-collar so so let's talk about

like tell me Michael's philosophy about the e-collar philosophy like your use your use case like what what you enjoy about the e-collar what are some of the let's also just to be a balanced conversation what are some of the downsides of the e-collar U simple one there's no Direction well yeah there's no Direction without without a method to show them direction there's not a there's not Direction and that's why also in naal po we use other tools first we use a leash slip leash slip collar um to teach and then we layer the e-collar over that because the e-collar has no Direction AKA classically conditioned right yeah so when they first feel that they don't know what what to do with it we have to show them and then what I was talking yesterday to somebody at the conference was just that it's the e-collar by itself doesn't mean anything to the dog they don't know what to do with it we have to show them what to do with it how do you turn off this pressure and then that's why we use the lower levels of the e-collar is that the dog can think while we're teaching right and um then we can go up to get to the point where the dog is like okay now I want to turn this off but they already know what to do and they know they felt it before so they know how to turn that signal on right so that's the point where the the motivation doesn't come in whereas other people they uh you know the popon system you're teaching the dog teaching the dog teaching the dog and then the dog isn't doing what you want then Here Comes they're surprised by the punishment it's and that's a thing it's a in I think in na po it's a do it's a doe tool and a do not do tool whereas in most systems it's just a do not do tool right right but there's other systems that that use it as a duel also but they don't start at the low levels right they don't use it as communication first like communication levels is what we call it to prepare the dog they just go to a high level and the dog is just trying to avoid it with you know and they figure out how to avoid it right it's more like running away from that feeling than running towards it that makes sense yeah and for me like some of the you know some of the disadvantages of relying on an e-caller is it's not in the tool itself it's in the user of the tool where maybe they forget to charge the batteries and you come unprepared or the the equipment dies or you um or you lose a transmitter or you um and again not all eols are created equal so the the the consistency across the board is not the same um for everyone who uses just an e-collar right there are better ones there are worse ones there I mean there

are ones in between for me the biggest problem with with e-c callers that are not quality e-c callers is that the level of stem is not always consistent a level two sometimes be a two it might be a0 two or it might be a 200 right yeah but it's also it's not just between e-collar if you have the leash in your hands right you cannot apply a level two consistently level two pressure every single time every single time you apply pressure with that leash it's going to be different whereas the e-c color is consistent yeah and the good e-collar are especially consistent right y I mean um so that's the other thing you know going through the e-collar it's it's not about the e-collar but there's advantages to using the e-collar right uh and then going to leash versus e-collar too it's how personal the leash is what do every what does everybody say they're like oh your dog can feel your emotions like it travels down the leash right that's what they say but it it's really about the pressure you're adding to the dog consistently because the leash every time they move there's a little pressure put on there and then it's released and it's put on it's released at times when you don't necessarily want it to happen you know whereas the collar it's very precise you can add the pressure when you want and take it off when you want and when while the dog is moving around doing other things there there's no pressure until you actually add it you know as opposed to the leash right I think the benefits of the tool altogether or any tool whether it's eall or not like for forget the tools forget the e-caller the benefit the benefits outweigh the disadvantages immensely in my opinion any tools in general you mean yeah yeah yeah for I mean forgetting about the tools forgetting about the e-caller I think the benefits of using using the the the tools or training AIDS help you far more than they would ever hinder you in training a dog yeah but what as you gain experience and as you learn also those disadvantages kind of start going away right you know they're there but you don't run into them because you already know what they are ahead of time so you avoid the disadvantages right you the tools because when you learn to use them properly yeah I mean there's there's a lot to dive into in E colors it's it's hard to keep it wrapped in in in like a very Central topic of sorts like there's so many directions you can go and Venture off into um in in in our conversation about tools e-collar and the system I think it's the point of this conversation is to say when you think about naoo and good modern dog training you can forget about the tool because

it's not about the tool it's about the the the techniques the the principles that drive the behavior in the dog not about the the actual piece of equipment itself yeah correct is that right yep it's about knowing the dog learning the dog learning how to motivate it um and learning how it reacts to certain things and how to make it react the way you want and then using those tools on top of that to just enhance the training yeah yeah eventually get to the e-collar because it's the it's the most advanced piece of equipment we have right now right until we have brain chips implanted in the dog that were you know you have a chip and the dog the dog has a chip and you have a chip and you just yeah and then you're like telepathically communicating so that would be strange right but but but but but there but there we like people say oh that would be amazing to be able to do that but I'm like no like I still enjoy knowing that the dog has a choice to not choose to do what I want it to do but when but that he does it in spite of that choice not to obey me the fact that he does it and that I've trained him to choose what I want him to do that's the rewarding aspect of dog training if he was a robot I mean it would be like driving a remote control car I i' get bored with it after a week and I'd move on you don't want to go to the the that style of training that I've seen where everything the dog does is a choice oh uh oh is it like did you ask your dog if you wanted to go for a walk yes isn't that like called the like in between the ears training or something like that like like where the dogs have like their their agency to choose like and they have to they have to acknowledge and provide consent before they like yeah the dog that's the point that's another thing the dog is not if you break it down the dog is not choosing really every single time at some point you're making it do things well when okay so when a dog doesn't do what you want it to do your attempt to manipulate the dog failed and the environment that he chose won so environment one you zero right it's it's a matter of motivation if the dog chose the competing motivator or the competing reinforcer to chase the squirrel instead of coming when called your attempt at controlling that dog's Behavior lost out to the environment right but if your if your dog comes when called in the presence of a squirrel that he would like to chase then your training was superior to the environment right because like kind of getting into darnis philosophy survival of the fit so the the only thing that determines what survives is the environment right the environment dictates what survives what

doesn't the the environment dictates Behavior okay and every in every culture in every environment you go you go to South uh or the South Pole then you behaviors that are the the the behaviors that survive are behaviors that are dictated by the environment the climate down there right then you to say it's not a choice is it a choice then well it is because you can choose to do the other but you die off right like if you chose to wear shorts in the South Pole in Antarctica right if you chose to dress like you would in Hawaii you the the environment is going to weed you out really quick those decisions will not be passed on and it reinforces other decisions yeah right so you do have a choice it's not your choice you if you wear shorts right and then the weather dictates like you you cannot wear shorts well but you still have the choice like the weather is not going to prevent I think so because then you're you're man you're influenced by the environment we talk choices about in no influence right yeah but all I'm saying is that because then that's what I mean environment the environment dictates what survives and it dictate like it it choose it selects the be it's the behavior selection process the environment selects what behaviors survive and thrive but what I mean is it's the like the once the you make a one choice the next time it's not a choice anymore you're still you're still choose you're choosing life right you're choosing life not death that's that's because there is no other there is no other choice there is no other choice because there's no choose to die right I mean in animal especially there's no choice to die M so the the choice has been removed to wear shorts say for example yeah so there is no choice anymore to remove yes so to your points so to your points a leash right let like not mean to cut you off but when you show the dog that with a leash this is your only choice okay you have like you've removed the choice like the dog is not choosing the other thing anymore because it's like this is the choice now there's only one choice there's not but the leash I I'll say this the leash of the reason the leash is not as effective as like say a harsh environment is because the leash is held by someone who determines what gives and what doesn't give right so your environment is a lot more forgiving by holding the leash some people are very forgiving with the leash right they let the dog you know they they let the dog do whatever they want on the leash which is why there's CR criticisms against the flexy or retractable style leashes but not that I have a problem with them but I'm just saying some people say that

that's you know but like a hot like Death Valley is a very unforgiving environment right Antarctica is a very unforgiving environment under the ocean without oxygen is a very unforgiving environment right like the environment is what selects behaviors right and if you want the dog to have ultimate control you have to know you have to under you have to be at peace with that idea that it's not even an idea it's a natural law it's natural law you have to understand that and use it to your advantage you have to go for a five day walk because your dog never wanted to go home exactly yeah so like so like for people who are out there theoretically right so for people who are out there saying like you know it's like this animal animal rights movement IDE ideology but you know to to say that animals should have agency like what agency do they have in the wild if they were if they were not in the hands of a human what agency do they have in the wild but yeah that's why I think the there you say about choice right but you don't have a choice if you're hungry you don't have a choice not to eat you don't have a choice not to hunt right you don't have a choice not to hunt if you believe even your dog making the decision when it wants to go home and then only then do you go home it's not making a choice to go home it eventually got hungry and it knows the food's at home so there wasn't a choice like there's no choice if you have to do it you know what I mean yeah that's what I was getting at yeah there's no choice to wear shorts you have to wear clothes right you have to there's no choice but again my point is that you still have the like I could I could choose to travel to Antarctica with a a suitcase full of shorts right that's a choice not not that it's a good choice not that it's a wise choice but it's a choice yeah I understand what you mean yeah my my side is saying that death is not a choice avoiding it is though right in in a lot of cases but so that's what I mean avoiding death is the only choice right you didn't CH there's no Choice there the way I'm thinking sure sure I that makes sense so it's interesting like this kind of turned into an interesting conversation um but um at the end of the day I think like without belaboring and going back in circles um I think we've had a really interesting conversation I think there's some really good points um hopefully it clears up convers or miscommunication about Nao only being about a tool or tools because it's it's about the use of the tools it's about it's about the method of training without tools even right it's it's why you can train with a leash it's why you

can train with bamboo sticks it's why you can train with spatial pressure um you know and not need anything else yeah you know and and for those who are listening to this and are going to Silver school please come introduce yourselves would love to you know chat hear your thoughts uh we want to hear what's what's interesting what might not be interesting maybe I need to re in my my tangents that I like to go down um I know Mike would like that no I don't care but um but it'll be fun it it'll be fun to see and if you haven't gone to the school and you're not signed up for silver uh this March we'd love to see you again it uh it's definitely something that'll be eye openening I think you know I speak for a lot of people but definitely for myself it was it was by far the best um best decision educationally for me in my dog Journey um for training and professional you know um skill so it's definitely worth worth uh worth the investment yeah that was my thing when I finally got on to like to napl PO and B was this per every other person I'd seen and everything else I'd seen was like this is how you teach your dog to sit this is how you teach your dog to down this is how you teach your dog to heal whereas when I got to Bard in napl po it was just like I don't care how you teach your dog to sit with as long as it does it as best as it can motivate him to sit the best he can and to look happy doing it and to always do it yeah right and how to it's just it was a game changer you know for me I for sure it the cheat code to dog training right there yeah right if we can bring understanding to that you know because like you said there's a lot of misconceptions I think uh that that was the reason you know we're doing the podcast and exactly and then and think about the think about a world like you know I don't think we're there going there quickly but eventually you know we might be in a situation where we find ourselves without the ility to use tools does that mean we can't train dogs without tools no it doesn't the system Nao good Concepts found within modern dog training you can still train dogs it changes things it might take you a little longer to accomplish certain things that you could otherwise do really quickly um and you know Bart Bart mentioned you know his his observation in training dogs from like the 80s to to today is that you know back back in the early ' 80s and 90s dogs trained on leash they're very obedient within a six foot radius of the owner right but when they got off leash they were very hard to control they weren't as obedient but now with the with the evolution of the e-collar dogs are really well behaved

away from their owners but you see the dogs who only train with e-collar they're not as well behaved near their owners because the leash skills have been kind of leapfrogged or or they've been left behind they haven't spent a lot of time using leash work with their dogs yep right it's not yeah it's going to not understanding all the tools yeah only jumping to one yeah but for for people who who criticize oh they always have a KNE collar on the dog well I always let my dog wear a flat collar so that I can put an a leash on if I need to are you going to criticize me for using a leash all the time with my dog sometimes I'm mandated by the the City that I live in whether if you're in New York you might have to legally always have a leash on your dog what then are you g to criticize them and say oh you can't do anything because you always have a leash on your dog like that's that's not fair to say like I mean that's like we should be we should be better than that you are correct sir so I I never get tired of hearing that you know am I the one that says it to you what's that am I the only one that says it to you yeah it seems like these days um but uh anyways no it's good conversation um so that's kind of a wrap for I think that's a good good place to end um I think like I said there's a spring there's a lot of different ways to springboard into other topics but I think for the for the purposes of this conversation I think we really covered it we we had some really good points in the conversation um again please like share subscribe to our channels share it with your friends um if you found something useful we we don't care if you like it we want we would like we would like you to like it but we want you if you don't like it then hate it we don't care if you like it we don't care if you hate but we we want you to share it though yes whether you share because you like it or you hate it share it nonetheless okay if if you like it especially share it to as many people as possible if you hate it then share it to your little group of uh the people you complain about online things too about yeah but whatever you do share it yep before you listen to it even share it yeah yeah let let people know that you're about to listen to it right okay share it and don't listen to it exactly matter yeah yeah yeah yeah exactly well actually no because I mean the the the you know the hours listened and viewed is also helpful as well so anyways all right well hey that was that was fun man uh good chatting with you episode six we'll see you in a few I'll see you in a few weeks yeah about a week and a half so okay all right hey take care of

yourself Mike all right talk to you all right see it we are live hello everyone we won't be live we'll be recorded but we're live right now for you and me live recording recording it's a live recording brought to you all right brought by the full quadrant podcast the uh yeah you got the logo up that was good on yeah the podcast yeah now we just have to mess around like you saw the Tik Tok thing yeah that's cool I think that stuff's great I'm not on you I'm not I'm not on Tik Tok so I'm not like uh I'm not familiar with how to use that platform yeah it's not bad so there's I mean there AI now coming out yeah stuff that you know they're adding to all these platforms right so you can edit you know your stuff we will never get to a point in society where a dog is so domesticated that they act like a human they will never be that domesticated to be a human like people are trying to domesticate them so that they can take the place of children but they're doing that with they're trying to double dip they're trying to double dip they they don't want the the full responsibility of caring for a child they just want half the responsibility but they want the benefit of feeling like they love something and care for it right yeah because they know a dog doesn't require as much work as a child does you don't have to feed it as much you don't have to give it you don't have to pay for as much like so they're trying to they're trying to double dip and they're trying to take advantage of dogs by turning them into kids or children but the problem is they'll no matter how domesticated they get they're never going to speak our language they're never going to wake up and be like hey you want some coffee like let me pour you a cup of coffee right like that's like it's it's a it's a it's a futile Endeavor to try to domesticate a dog to the point where they become a human and that's the direction people are wanting to go and by by saying like Okay maybe yes maybe Neo or well actually any system requires tools whether you're using a clicker a whistle um a leash a collar a harness um a clack clack a place board a dog kennel like there's equipment required for dog training no Force Free Trainer gets away with living with their dog without a collar around the dog's neck because I mean even in Manhattan City all the Burrows in Manhattan City have extremely strict leash laws that means it's not possible to train a dog for off leash work because there's no there's no place you would ever have your dog off leash now maybe your dog gets off maybe your dog slips the leash and you let go of the leash by accident and now you need off leash

application that's different why you should train it which exactly which is why you should train it but you should never legally you can't have your dog off leash in New York City yeah interesting interestingly enough um tools have existed from the like from the time there was a first the the very first dog that was considered a pet I guarantee you they had a rope around that dog's neck right or used a rope at times for the dog right that rope became a leash right which graduated into a million different evolutions of leashes right we've got the flexi we've got the bunge leash we've got the you know okay