E104: 로라 워드비(Laura Waudby) - 피벗에서 링까지

which for anybody listening is currently open for registration. It starts on March 11th for those kind of not familiar with the concept. Can you just describe what a pivot is and kind of what it looks like, you know, when it's done right. So pivoting is the term we use in obedience to describe, um, a hind end awareness exercise where the dog, we start out by putting the dog's front feet up on a bowl or another foot target that we usually call a perch or a disc. And then dog kind of rotates around like a, like a circus trick. And then in obedience, we use that skill for our heel work. So the dog is rotating and that kind of same rotation towards us, um, next to our left side. So they're staying parallel in heel position the entire time, um, both with the person and eventually without it. So the dog learns how to keep heel position to keep their head up high, um, and just exactly where position is. So I think, um, that mostly answers my next one, which is going to be why teach a dog to pivot. So it's really about heel work. Yeah. Um, so they generally use pivoting for heel work. Um, it is a good hindrance exercise in general, uh, but for heel work, I find that it does two really big things to help with healing. Um, the first is teaching them where heel position is. So the handler can stand next to the perch in a way that it's impossible for the dog to be forged or leg, but they're lined up nice and straight. And then it encourages the dog to be super close to us in healing. Cause I know some dogs, especially little dogs have really big space bubbles. Um, and I know when I first taught my dog how to heal the, uh, the corgi, he, I thought I knew where heel position was, but I actually had no idea at all. And I apparently taught him to heal almost a body length ahead of me in our healing. Um, so he would look back over his shoulder and prancing cause he was quite the ham. Um, but I really had no idea where heel position was and the perch kind of forces a handler to know exactly where it is. And then the second kind of benefit of teaching the pivoting is that it really isolates those dogs rear legs. It emphasizes that rotation towards us. Um, really the most common errors in healing is a dog who tends to heal with their butt out, um, maybe kind of flings their body around. We tend to call that kind of crabbing in the obedience world and pivoting really works on that butt coming in towards our leg all the time. Um, so if you want pretty healing, the dog should have a lot of rear end awareness and pivoting is a great way to teach that.

I think there are probably two common questions I see about pivots from people that are kind of teaching them for that first time. Uh, the first one is, you know, how do I choose a pivot disc? What options are out there? And then how should the size of the disc kind of relate to the dog or the phase of training? When the dog is first starting out and like, let's say they're really hesitant about putting their paws up on something. I might use a flat surface such as, you know, a mat or even like a flattened cardboard box. But when I'm actually doing the pivot work, taller is much better. Um, minimally we're talking a few inches, but oftentimes I'll even use a stool that really gets the dog's feet raised, um, maybe a good eight, 10, even 12 inches. And something wide enough that they're not worried about falling off when they start to move. A lot of the dogs tend to look down when they're first starting to pivot. And that can be because your purchase is too small for them to really feel confident with. Um, when I first started pivoting, um, a long time ago, I tend to use old phone books that were duct taped together. Um, I don't think many people have that nowadays. Um, so now I tend to use more round objects. I use a lot of dog food bowls as a dog starts to progress. Um, if you go to like the fleet farm, um, or even, um, Packer Supply Company, you can find those black rubber feed bowls. Um, they're really nice and grippy for the dogs and a nice size. Some of them tend to sink in, so I might stack two together. So the dog gets nice and sturdy on there, but really you can use pretty much anything at home at height that has height. So you can still use the stool. If you want to use the stool, you can use a flower pot, um, pretty much anything. And then as a dog is actually starting to get the idea of pivoting next to you, that's when you're looking at shrinking the perch down. Um, and at that point, I mean, I might use a towel. I might use a folder, um, something flat, but still nice and big enough for the dog to get their two feet on there pretty easily. So the other question that I feel like I see a lot is kind of about the middle step, right? They've got the dog confidently putting their paws on the desk, but they just aren't getting any of that back end movement yet. And, you know, maybe they're even starting to get a bit of frustration because the dog is doing what they think is right. They're putting their paws on the desk, but it's not what the trainer is looking for anymore. So can you maybe share some advice about how to get past, you know, that hurdle?

There are a lot of different ways to start that movement. Um, what I typically do is I start with a dog learning the action of pivoting while they're still facing me. A lot of the dogs naturally want to face us, especially if you haven't done a lot of heel training where we get the dogs to their side, um, can use that to our benefit. Some dogs still get a little bit stuck, even if you're trying to face them and move, the movement doesn't seem to occur to them. So the first thing that I look at is standing a little bit further away. And so instead of standing with our toes right up to the perch where I eventually want it, I might go back even several feet away and work on the dog, just moving that tiny rotation to face me. And usually at this stage, I also introduce the dog to, to finding a cookie that's kind of between my thumb and the palm of my hand, um, and kind of this upright vertical position. At first, when you do that, the dogs will look really confused on how to actually find that cookie, let alone how to eat it. Um, but eventually I want to use that cookie placement and sometimes kind of call it, that'll lead to your pocket hand if you've heard that term before. Um, but I'll use that cookie position to turn the dog's head. Um, generally the key to pivoting in the early stages is if the dog looks over their shoulder, their butt will move away from that. Um, so a lot of your pivoting stuff is turning the dog's head and getting their butt to move towards you. And so then a normal step for dogs a little bit later on to get stuck yet is when you progress from pivoting while facing the dog to now trying to get the dog to pivot towards heel position when you're standing still. Um, that's a pretty big jump for the dogs because when you're facing the dog, you're using your own motion to get the dog to move. Basically you move, the dog moves, you move, the dog moves. And now when you're in heel position and you're trying to get the dog there, you are standing completely still. And that's a pretty big jump for the dogs. And so again, there's a lot of different ways you can encourage the dog to move towards you. I tend to use that learning based approach with the cookie held, um, in my vertical hand, like they learned earlier to help turn the dog's, turn the dog's head out, their head moves, their butt follows. Um, it's a lot of mistakes I see with that stage. Um, generally people try to use their whole arm instead of just that small wrist flick motion. Um, so I recommend keeping your hand really close to your body, turning your wrist almost like you're opening a door.

And then I have a lot of success on actually having my fingers, um, either at the side of their muzzle, just gently pushing in, or even my fingers underneath the dog's chin. Um, it is again why I teach that cookie presentation really early on so I can get the dog comfortable with knowing that there's a cookie there and that they can move their head towards it. Um, and in the beginning stages, it's, it's okay if you just reward that head turn, even if the dog isn't actually moving their legs. Um, in general, what they can't hold their head in that position, in that position forever. So if their head is turned, their butt will eventually, eventually follow as long as they aren't giving up and you're giving them lots of rewards for just that head turn. Um, so lots of baby steps is what I tend to do for those dogs. So how long do you usually keep the disc in the picture? And at what point do you usually start to kind of transition away from it? I don't have a problem with continuing to use like a perch, um, or a disc throughout the dog's entire career. Um, most dogs learn to really love the pivoting and the prop is a nice way to build their confidence, especially when I start going out to different places. Um, so I will tend to use it whenever I take a new dog to maybe to a parking lot to train. Um, I've even brought it into places like Home Depot and I just do some easy perch work there. And then the other place I tend to use a perch with an advanced dog is pretty much anytime I want to focus on a different part of the exercise and not actually worry about how they're setting up or how they're getting a finish at the end. Um, generally in my training, there, there are lots of ways you can have flow and kind of skip both those pieces, but there are also times when you want to focus on that formal structure, putting in those nice calm pauses. And so I tend to bring out a perch a lot for those pieces to just really structure the dog. But with a dog new to pivoting, um, I tend to use the perch until I have two solid goals in mind. The first goal I want is that maintaining heel position. So typically the dog is the dog is already at my left-hand side or my right-hand side, if you're doing on the right. And then I want that dog to pivot with me as I move probably at least 180 degrees. And what I want to see that while they're doing that motion, that they're parallel with me the entire time. So they're not more than 30 degrees away from me as I'm moving. Um, so I'm looking at more than just how the dog looks when I stop, but actually how they're looking while I'm moving.

And along with that, I want to see that the dog's head is up. Um, a lot of dogs will look down when they're pivoting and this might be because they're worried about falling off the perch or just not confident with that foot motion. So in my heel work, I find that it's a lot easier for the dog to read my body language and guess how far I'm going to actually move. Just kind of read my body versus just automatically flinging and thinking I'm going to go 180 degrees. Um, if they're looking up versus looking down. And so I try and fix that while I'm still having a perch for dogs who really struggle, I might go to a lower perch and fixing that going to like a flat folder. But in general, that heads up criteria is something that I want before I get rid of the perch. And then the third part that I'm looking for, for the maintain heel is the dog's position in relationship to me. Um, it more so like how are they forwards or are they lagged? And generally that's my goal versus how the dog understands it because basically how you stand forces the dog forces their position. So if your toes are really far back, then chances are you're teaching your dog to, to forge. And I see that a lot with teams new to obedience as like, and you don't really know where heel position is when you first start. Um, at least I certainly didn't. So that's kind of the first main goal with a parallel with me, the heads up and their forge versus likeness. And then the second goal that I want before getting rid of the perch is, can they find heel without me moving? So if I'm standing still next to the perch and I throw a cookie behind me, can they come up and be parallel next to me? If I throw it to the left, throw it to the right, throw it in front, can the dog basically find heel without any help from me when I'm just standing still? And for most dogs, that's a harder step because they like to rely on our emotion in order to move with us. And if I'm standing still, they really have to know exactly how far to rotate to line up straight. So those are the kind of the things that I'm looking at before I start to get to a flat target. To talk a little more about the workshop specifically, do you mind just kind of talking us through what it covers, you know, kind of in terms of the range of stuff that we're talking about with pivots and maybe just a little bit on who it's for? So the workshop is looking at that step one, just getting the dog to step on the perch and then having value for keeping their feet on it, no matter what you're doing. They have to have a lot of value in order to progress to pivoting.

But then it's also progressing to how to take away that prop and teach the dog to do that pretty left pivot, even when you're just standing still and you're on a flat ground. So for a lot of teams, taking away that perch can be a real sticking point, as even if the dog knows that criteria that I kind of talked about earlier with pivoting on the perch, when you take it away, they now have to pivot in place plus actually back up as they move with you. And that's like a new skill for them to be able to do. Because if you're standing next to a perch, you kind of take little small shuffles forward and the dog's feet are generally sitting in one spot. And then when there isn't a perch, we essentially put the handler on an imaginary perch so they are pivoting in spots. And now the dog is the one who has to move backwards to keep their butt in. So the workshop will talk about getting that left pivot on the perch and then getting rid of it and some of the problem solving in between. Essentially, for those of you who are familiar with the team obedience program, we're looking at the level one criteria for pivoting and then looking at the left pivot portion of level two. We're not going to quite go into the right pivot portion of pivoting because I just got way too long. Fair enough. To kind of shift gears a little bit, you've also got a new class, Novice Smart Preparing for the Dog's First Trial. That's on the schedule for the first time in April. So novice abiding can be kind of super exciting, but it's also a little bit scary. Whether it's the first time for that dog or the first time for both the dog and the handler. So what things are there that handlers often overlook that can be worked on outside of a trial environment that'll actually improve their performance at that first trial? Most novice handlers tend to put a lot of emphasis on the exercises themselves. They focus a lot on a lot of healing, probably a lot of boring healing patterns, your typical L pattern, your T pattern. And then they focus on, you know, does the dog know how to stay? Does the dog know how to come? But for most teams, that's not really what's going to decide if your run is actually qualifying or not. Generally, as long as your dog is kind of with you and understands the basic parts of the exercise, then that's not typically what's going to end cue in a trial. Usually what causes most runs to move from that qualifying realm to the non-qualifying realm are pretty much all the parts in between, like distraction. Distractions are a really big one for a lot of dogs.

So like, can the dog still heal if the open ring right next door, the dog is doing a dumbbell retreat? Or what if someone's opening their bag of food outside the ring? Can the dog still kind of keep focus? People pressure. So can the dog heal with a judge following them? Can they do a setup next to that judge? Can they stay with the, you know, the stewards walking close by? There's just a lot of little things that don't really have to do with the dog's understanding of how to heal or how to stay per se. It's just all those little pieces that kind of come together in a trial. Other things are, you know, how are you going to move from one exercise to another when you actually don't have any food on you? And have you ever even practiced having your dog watch you put cookies down and enter a ring? I know when I did my first novice obedience trial, I had never practiced that at all. And I was lucky that my dog kind of thought I did. So we faked our way through. But every trial after that got worse and worse and worse as he was like, hey, where are my cookies? So I definitely had to go back and teach him that I didn't have cookies on the ring, but he would still earn them. I had to teach him that silence was a good thing because I think in practice, I just talked to him a lot. I did a lot of praise and I still do a lot of praise with my dogs. But I also want them to know that when I'm silent, it means they're on the right track. That it doesn't mean that they have to worry just because I'm formally healing right now. So those are some of the, just a few of the little things to work on when you get ready for trialing that doesn't have a lot to do with the actual exercises themselves. Some of the things are hard to practice without another helper. So ideally you have access to that. But even if you don't, we can still break things down and we can look at adding a little tiny bit of pressure and a happy way to your dog without needing an actual helper. So maybe instead of working on a judge standing behind your dog when you're sitting up, can the dog do a setup if there's, you know, a toy on the ground behind them or their food bowl behind them? But starting to add a little bit of that pressure to their different skills. So are there important differences handlers should be aware of when it comes to some of the different obedience organizations here in the States? Well, most organizations do have very similar rules for the exercises themselves. Generally, if you're training for one, then your dog should at least be perfectly fine to go into another organization.

You might have to read the rules, but your dog is probably fine. Some of the bigger changes are with the stays, especially now that AKC has shorter stays in the middle of the ring and the dogs are on leash for novice. You will find a bigger difference now between, you know, AKC group stays and ASCA or UKC. But that's mainly in, you know, how long the stays or how far away from your dog. Some organizations might have a recall ovary jump. So that's something a little bit extra to train for with that added speed of jumping and coming to front with you. But it's the kind of basic skill of being left in a stay and being called to come. The biggest difference in philosophy that I really like is going to be CDSB, which is Companion Dog Sport Program. And that's typically the organization I recommend teams start out in, whether it's a brand new team to obedience or just a new dog, because you can praise the dog at any time in the ring and you can even get a cookie between exercises before you actually go to the next setup. So I love CDSB as a way to support a new dog and really to support the handler as well as they kind of get their toes dipped into a formal obedience setting. But for the most part, the exercises themselves in each organization are very, very similar to each other. I know personally, I kind of find taking training on the road the hardest part, right? So can you talk a little bit about why it's such an important piece of the puzzle? And then, you know, do you have any tips for handlers kind of like me who struggle with that piece of it? Well, I really suck at that piece too, a lot actually. I tend to blame that I live in a state where I can't be outside for a good portion of the year here because it's just way too cold. In some places, it may be way too hot and that really limits my flow. I get really good in the summer and then it tapers off and then I kind of have to like re-talk myself into going places again when it starts to get warm because in winter, I pretty much don't leave the house. But ideally, if you were a better person than me, you would get yourself on a set schedule so you don't have any excuse. Maybe you say every Monday or if you even can't do weekly, maybe do, you know, the first Friday of the month, you will go out to this place. But put it on your actual calendar because that tends to force me a little bit. It doesn't have to be a training school. It can be, you know, a hardware store that allows dogs, parking lots, an actual park. There's pretty much anywhere. And then probably the biggest piece that would be the most helpful that's been very helpful

to me is recruiting a friend. Ideally, someone you need up with in your life, but even if it's over the internet, somebody who will hold you accountable. Um, like when I was training a behavior, um, watch my dog that was really hard for me to do. I set up a, I call it a shaming group on Facebook where that we reported into each other on our progress for the week. And it was just kind of someone to hold you accountable. Um, and then it could be shaming, but it could also just be a lot of praise, um, that reinforcement, seeing each other's progress and motivating you to actually go in and do it yourself. Um, because for most dogs, it is really important to get out, not just because of the different distractions they're going to see, but that practice of getting to a new place, acclimating and actually choosing to work. And especially if you're looking at competing in obedience, you really want to know how long does it take your dog to be comfortable in a new place? How long does it take them to warm up, um, before starting work? And if you don't know that before you go to a trial, it's going to be a lot harder. Um, so the more places you go, the more you're going to learn to read your dog and find out those little pieces, even if you don't do hardly any work at all. At what point in training a behavior do you usually start that and begin working on it, you know, away from home or in those new locations? Ideally, I would start that pretty early on, but generally my first goal in going somewhere is again, really that acclimation piece, getting a dog comfortable in different environments. It's kind of looking around, seeing all the things and then choosing to turn back to me to eat cookies. Um, or eventually you're going to have to get a little bit more experience choosing to work even before they see those cookies, but just practicing that piece over and over and over again. Um, I think all of us trainers have different terms for that piece, whether it's called engagement or start buttons, ready buttons, um, ready to work protocols, but it's kind of all the same thing that dog getting really comfortable pushing us to work. So it doesn't really matter what I'm actually training. Um, I do try to pay attention that I'm not treating a new behavior out in public with the dog, or if it is new, I try to be several steps below where that dog is at. So again, back with the pivoting, even if that's my dog knows healing pretty well, the first time I'm really out in a new place, I might bring my perch and just do pivoting on a perch just to work on that confidence.

Because in general, I try to focus not really the exercises themselves, but the dog's attitude, their confidence, you know, their enthusiasm for work. And then as they get more advanced, I tend to focus more on, you know, can I leave the cookies over here and can we go over here and set up, um, just the little pieces and not so much doing, you know, those long healing patterns or the formal recalls. Um, cause again, the exercises themselves typically aren't the stuck points when you go to an actual trial. I know we've kind of hopped around a bit, but do you mind just kind of taking us through what else the class will cover? Yeah, I think we did actually hit on a lot of the key pieces. Um, so we're going to talk about training exercises, um, you know, what to expect at a trial from the different organizations to how to actually check in, um, at your first trial, um, how to warm up your dog, kind of how much time they need, what you should do during their warmup versus exclamation time versus the time right before you go in the ring. Um, how to take it on the road and what you should kind of do when you're out in public, getting cookies off your body. Um, kind of all those little things in there. Kind of looking over the syllabus, it seems like some of the class is about, um, the concepts it takes to go from training at home to trialing in the ring. And some of it's about the exercises themselves. What do you cover in each category? Um, for this stage of the class, I want each team to have a start to all the exercises or at least the ones they want to work on. So if they don't want to work the stand for exam, they don't even actually have a stand. Um, but in general, the exercises don't have to be perfect, but we're not going to go over the beginning, the beginning how to steps. So for example, like with your heel work, we're not going to cover how to teach pivoting and heel, even though we will talk about healing and more so how to problem solve things such as lagging or forging, or maybe the dog gets overexcited with stewards. So we'll kind of talk a little bit more on the polishing up part of it and the problem solving pieces. Um, like for the exam, we're not going to talk about how to actually teach a stand, but we will talk about how to handle your dog who wants to jump on a steward maybe, um, or gets a little bit nervous about it. So generally each week, we'll talk about one exercise and then about two other pieces of the flow that we tend to forget need to be trained to. So the, the prerequisites I put out for the class is that a dog can do a novice run through

and qualify with just a 170 with food in your pockets and in your backyard. Um, so kind of having those beginning pieces, but maybe not have brought it yet to the next step. Kind of looking it over, it seems like there are a lot of different things in it. And I was curious how it's maybe different from some of the other classes, including like the ring confidence class you teach, for example. So my goal in Nikki in this class was to kind of tie all the pieces together. So depending on me, if you have my ring confidence class, if you have my bye-bye cookie class, or, you know, if you have like, you know, Hannah's healing class and all the other things, there will be a lot of overlap in topics. Um, so this class is mainly bringing it all in one place and starting to work the multiple pieces at one time. So not that hyper-focused on just getting rid of the cookies, but tying that more into the ring entrances and just kind of putting everything together. So if you feel like you have a really solid grasp on how to pay the rewards, you're really familiar with the ring prep stuff, then you probably don't need this class. Um, but I do know a lot of people who do have those classes in the library and they maybe have looked at it and worked on it, but they haven't done it in a while. And it's kind of hard to tie things together. And so I, that was kind of my goal for this class is to really make, tie things together for the people who are struggling to make that big leap into a trial. Um, even if they already have some of the knowledge of how to do it, they're just not actually combining all those things yet. Now, could it also be for somebody kind of coming at it from the opposite approach, somebody who isn't sure where maybe they need a deeper dive and they just kind of want an overview? Yeah. Um, I tend to see, I was kind of give two people, um, when I made this class, the first thing we kind of talked about the people who've been doing the FENSI classes for a long time. Um, they already have the pieces and they're just a little bit hesitant. And then the other people I was thinking of are the people who are kind of blissfully unaware of everything. Um, you know, they're excited. I think you have exercises, but they don't really know the other pieces that they need to have. Um, so this would be kind of that intro to it. Ideally those people would still probably need to take other classes on these topics to dive more in depth. Um, but it's still kind of your general overview of things so they can get started thinking about such as those transitions and the cookies off your body.

Um, so ideally both groups of people would still have a good time in class. Awesome. Is there anything else you want to say about who the class is for or a little more on what they should know going in? So basically, again, if your dog knows the basics of the exercises and you're thinking about trialing, you don't have to, you know, be like, you know, you don't have to have an entry that you're waiting to put in the mail right now. Um, ideally you're looking at a couple months out, even a year out. Um, but you're, you want to work towards that goal and hopefully this will kind of be that shove to get in the ring or at least that shove to start working on the pieces that you've kind of neglected a little bit. So one last question for you, and I've been asking everyone who comes on this one lately. So what's something you've learned or been reminded of recently when it comes to dog training? Um, mainly that training is so often it's two steps forward and then you take one step back. Um, a lot of times when you're training things, you just run into unexpected mistakes or the dog didn't actually read your training plan. Like you hope that they would. Um, and maybe you've been working really hard and you thought I fixed an issue, but then it comes back. Um, I just is so frustrating when it comes back and back again. Um, I thought of this a lot recently because like sometimes I know exactly why it happens. Um, with Zoomy and agility, we've struggled off and on with her staying at the start line. Um, and it's worse in some locations than others. And I know exactly why it comes back. Um, it's a kind of a mixture of her arousal issue and pressure issue, but then also the fact that I'm overexcited and I'm rushing too. So I fix it. I go back and I work on making my handling better, keeping connection, pausing, you know, all those things I know I should do. And I fix it. And then my old habit starts to creep back and then it comes back and basically repeat the cycle. Um, I find it really hard to train myself sometimes in training my dog. Um, and hopefully this time I will be better. And then sometimes in training, it's kind of, you know, the opposite. You don't know why an error happens and that can be more frustrating. Um, I've, I've had some of these too with her recently, you know, with, with our retrieve issues that we keep working on and pressure. And certainly I try to look at it as a, as a training puzzle. Um, you know, how can I break it down more? What can I experiment more to help understanding, um, you know, lower our house or reduce pressure?

Or it's a looking, I try really hard to look at it as a, as a puzzle, you know, reduce frustration, make it more fun for me. And I, I think we all have those behaviors that we just can't figure out or they seem to break. And so sometimes it just that constellation that we are not alone, that everybody has this. And that is the normal part of training that you take two steps forward and then you take a step back. And so I've been thinking about that a lot recently. And I love in there that you mentioned kind of that training ourselves is sometimes the harder part. So, you know, way harder for me. Well, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast, Laura. This has been great. Yeah, thank you. And thanks to all our listeners for tuning in. And we'll be back next week with Suyana to talk about what's actually right with your dog. If you haven't already subscribed to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenty Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenty for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Music. Thank you.