E165: 페타 클락(Peta Clarke) - "ABC: 선행 요인을 통한 행동 변화"

You know, it's a story that I do enjoy telling now, but initially I think when people hear it, it does sort of become a bit of an affront. And the situation was that I was going to university, so your college, and very much have always been interested in behavior. So I was studying to be a clinical psychologist. And in my third year, I was actually attacked and raped. And that led me down a path that was obviously not what anybody expects, but a path of three years of agoraphobia, having to stay at home, just absolutely terrified of the world at large. And the shrink, or the psychiatrist, I guess is the correct term to use, that I was seeing at the time, it was a smart lady. And she said to mum, eventually, she said, you know, we've tried so many things and we haven't been able to start to get her motivated to get out and overcome this fear. And they ended up working out that I really, really had a thing for boxer dogs, but we didn't have one at the time. So they brought me home a baby puppy called Russell Clark. And at eight weeks of age, he was my entry or re-entry back into the world, you know, at that particular, I mean, we're talking 30 years ago, Melissa, so it's a while. But we knew, at least then, we knew that we had to get them out and about and we had to socialize them and we had to do all of that stuff to give them the right start. And so subsequently, I had a reason to get out and face those fears that wasn't about me, but it was about, you know, another being. And I think so often that that's the thing that happens with us, us animal trainers, and especially when we're in the area of positive reinforcement and wanting to make it bigger, better and easier and more ethical and all of that for our animals. It's so much all about them. How can we help them? So here we are 30 years later. And I do sort of, you know, I know a lot of people will sort of jar at that, but I think it's a really important question to answer honestly, because what we have been through as trainers and definitely how we sort of started to get, how we got into this in the first place. I mean, I never thought about working with animals when I was going through high school, never. But it wasn't one of those teenagers who had posters of Labrador puppies and of horses with flying manes on their walls or anything like that. So it definitely was, it has been an amazing adventure that I didn't expect. Initially brought to me by this beautiful boxer puppy who, yeah, who basically saved my life. So it's my start. So I'm sorry you had to go through all that to get a, end up in the industry,

but I'm certainly glad you ended up here. And I'm glad too, you know, all these years later. So often we find that when we go through stuff like that, and we all do to a greater or lesser degree, you know, that's the point. I'm not unique. I'm not anything special. Unfortunately, we all go through trauma. Life is a bumpy road. But I think every single one of us listening and who are on this journey would acknowledge that we're in a situation where when we have those situations personally, the empathy that we have for our learners just increases, increases because we can understand, or at least it might not be exactly what they're feeling, exactly what they're going through. But we have empathy that is based on firsthand experience that we otherwise wouldn't have. Thinking about that 30 years ago, were you into positive training back then? If not, you know, kind of what got you started down that path? Yeah, well, that was exactly. It was so funny, actually, now that I think about it and all these memories coming back. I got this puppy, and I'm like, one of the things that I knew I had to do was take this puppy out and about. And one of the things that came, one of the criteria that came with, here's this puppy, and you know, you've got to, you know, responsibility now. And here we've got you, passed to a four-week course of puppy training classes at this local dog trainer. And it was at her house, and it was a her. They'd done all the right things. And I even remember then having to go and having my mum and my boyfriend at the time or my aunt sit on each side so that no one else sat next to me that I didn't know, so I was comfortable enough. But in moving in that direction, the instructor, the trainer at that time, could tell that I was really interested. Well, you know, it's one of those things. It's obvious when we're interested, right? We're like this, you know, hello. So, you know, say something else so I can learn when we get bitten by this sort of bug. And it was interesting because she'd had a long history, I think sort of going up to like five to ten years of traditional training, just in obedience competition and helping pet dogs and that kind of stuff. And she said to me one night after class, hey, there's this new way called positive reinforcement training and, you know, would you be interested in learning about that? And I had some understanding of what she was talking about, obviously, because I had trained formally to some degree, even though I left uni at the rape and I never acquired my degree and all that kind of stuff. It was like, well, yeah, I kind of know a bit about that.

And it was really, you know, just one of those coincidental things where she came and she had this dog knowledge and information. And I was like, hang on, let me get my textbooks out that were never as valuable as then as they were now, as they are now. You know, it's like we covered these textbooks. And I got them out and I'd always done well at university, but suddenly it started to come alive. So I've never trained as a, I've never done, I've never traditionally trained in the sense of the word, you know, focusing on punishment and aversion and that kind of stuff. But I love the question because looking back, you know, the easy answer is, yes, I've always been a positive reinforcement trainer. But looking back, my understanding and what I, of what a positive reinforcement trainer is today, if I look back and use that yardstick to judge myself, I wasn't a positive reinforcement trainer because I didn't know enough. I didn't understand. And I still had, like we all do. And even today, you know, every single one of us, no matter how invested we are in making this world a better place for our learners, are still humans first and foremost. And that means that we're going to grumble and yell at our dogs every now and again, you know, I'm sorry, but, but that's the truth. And we all have to band together and say, yeah, sometimes we slip up, you know, we all, we all grumble at our spouses. We all grumble at our family, you know, but I think the point is that when you are on this journey, you realize when your emotions have taken over and you're reacting in a way that is about you, not about the learner. And, and more and more, I'm able to control myself and think and, and, and just, and just naturally, it's so great. I mean, you know, we talk about this journey as if, yes, I've helped all these animals and blah, blah, blah. I will be nothing without this journey. You know, the person that I am now and the way that I deal with not only my dogs or my elephants or my birds, but, but other people, I deal with other people so much better. And you know what? I deal with myself well. I'm kinder to myself. So no, I, looking back, you know, yes, I've never stuck a check chain on a dog or anything like that in the name of training, but certainly I was not using the tools as effectively as I, as I, as I am now. And, and I hope that if we talk in 10 years, I can say the same. When we talked 10 years ago, I wasn't as effective. So it's, it's a journey, right? It's a journey. Absolutely. So to dig into that just a little bit more, how would you kind of describe your training

philosophy now or where you're at kind of today? Very much, you know, so, so many of us are so appreciative to other, to teachers, to, you know, we all learn from one another. And Susan Friedman definitely is a big influence on so many of us. And I always have in my, my head, it's, if, if someone asks me who is not cognizant and aware of sort of the positive reinforcement movement, I say, I want to train as ethically and as effectively as possible. And that's a term that comes from Susan, especially nowadays, because there is such an under, well, the whole, the whole term positive reinforcement training is out there and everybody knows about it. And I was going to say there's such a higher level of understanding just in general, but that's not true, right? That's not true. So there's, there's people who have bad associations and negative associations with that term. So I don't want to bring them out. And there's people who just to think they know what it means, but they don't know what it means. So I think, and, and, and moving along on our desire to always be, always communicate as clearly as possible. We, we know that the best thing that we can do when we're looking at behavior is to describe it rather than label it. So I find that because I focused on that and tried so hard to better myself in that way, I find that when I'm talking to people, I try and even if it's not about behavior, well, I guess it is about behavior because it's about my behavior. And they say, how do you train? Saying I'm a positive reinforcement trainer doesn't give them any information. But if I start to say ethically and effective, it's a narrower field so that they can start to understand a little bit more the, the approach that I take. Yeah. In some ways, as the phrase positive training has become more well-known as a label, I guess in some ways it's also watered down kind of the meaning, right? Like it's. Oh, oh, oh yeah. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. And again, you know, everybody has a different interpretation. So it's until we can identify, okay, that's what we mean by this. Um, and, and I think that term positive reinforcement training trainer has just gone so far that, um, I would rather, I try not to, to call myself that. I try not to refer to myself on my website or anything like that, because some people would come in and see that and go, oh, she's a food trainer. She, you know, it'll be no good for my dog kind of thing. So, um, so yeah, you know, we, you know, it's a journey, it's a journey and learning, but no, ethically and effective. I really like that.

I really like that because effective, I mean, that's, that's what we want to do is, and especially, you know, in the dog training world, it's as quickly as possible. Most people want to get in and get out. So, um, they like that. Um, and ethically most people, you know, they, they, they'd rather buy eggs laid by, um, chickens that are waddling around there eating worms than in a, in a, you know, battery sort of situation. So they have that understanding as well. So I think it helps. Yeah. I like that. Uh, so we're lucky enough to have you joining us as a presenter for the upcoming lemonade conference, um, where you're actually presenting for us twice, but I want to talk about the first talk first. So your first talk is on antecedents in your description. You wrote that functional analysis or ABC analysis is one of those things that can kind of hurt your head initially. So I'd love to unpack that a bit. Um, first for anybody who's not even familiar with the terminology here, can you just kind of explain what you mean by a functional or an ABC analysis? Yes. Yes. I'll do my best. I'll do my best. Cause I'm not a, I'm, I'm not an academic. I'm a dog trainer and animal trainer first and foremost. And my understanding of, of, of, of the, a functional analysis or, um, ABC analysis is just a reminder that, or a way to look at behavior. And I think when we have, um, a problem behavior, definitely in front of us, um, or we want to move behavior and train our dog to do something, we, we obviously focus on the behavior because that's what we want to modify in some way. Um, and one of the things that, um, that was such a great, uh, moment for me, and I'm just trying, I'm looking up cause I'm trying to remember when it happened, but I can't for the life of me. But it was that moment where someone, someone said it was probably a Ramirez or a Friedman or someone like that, um, said, you know, you, you can't, we're training and we want to modify behavior, but we can't influence behavior directly that we can't get into that. The only way that we influence behavior is by changing these things we call consequences over here that happen, all the stuff that happens after the behavior in time and space. And then we've got the situation over here where, where there's always stuff going on and present before the behavior happens. And we call them antecedents. And the only way we can get into that behavior and, and move it in some way, influence it is by modifying these things. And it was like, I mean, it's the simplest thing, but it was like, oh my gosh, of course.

Um, so, so I always want to, it's the first thing now I always help people to try and understand. I don't care about the terminology that's, that's for the academics. I like the word antecedent because it just leads us to the ABCs. But I tell you, it took me years to work out how to say it properly and comfortably in, in, in public. Um, and let alone spell it, you know, when you've got one of those whiteboards up there and now you have to spell in front of people, it's like, oh my gosh. Um, but, um, but, but it's a, it's just helps us understand that there's never just behavior in this amazing world of ours. That there's the, the stuff that's going on before that's influencing the behavior in some way, that's the antecedents and there's the stuff, the consequences, which pretty much we all, that's where we focus on when we start to, um, want to learn more about positive reinforcement training, right? We, we, we look at these and we go, okay, well, if we want to influence behavior, behavior is controlled by its consequences. So we learn about rate of reinforcement. Reinforcement is what the animal tells you it is, not what you think it is. So you start to realize that that bit of cheese or chicken that you're getting out of your pouch might not be cutting it in the real world, you know, and you learn, okay, well, what do you want? What do you mean you want to chase the rabbits? How do I do that? Oh, and off we go. But understanding that there's a whole nother side to it, these antecedents, um, definitely over the past probably five to 10 years has, has really, um, increased my understanding again of, um, of how to work with behavior, um, and move it in the way that, um, that we want it to go. But also the, the fact that when we focus on our consequences, the behavior that those consequences influence is behavior in the future. It's not going to influence the behavior here and now. And I think, as I think back and realize, you know, well, gosh, why have you become so focused on these antecedents? And I teach, you know, I generally teach, I want to talk about what, um, and, and share with people what I'm generally focused on at that, at that point in time. Um, so, so, so the topic of antecedents when, when, when I was originally coming to Boston, um, but for the, for the talk, um, and they said, you know, what, what would you want to talk about? It's like antecedents because I need to learn about antecedents more. So I know if I've got to put together a package, then that's what I'm going to be focused on and thinking about more and more. That's, that's the way it works for me.

Um, so, um, um, so yes, the, the, the importance of just, if, if we can only get people to stand back just a little bit and not, not pinpoint themselves and blinker themselves on the behavior, but okay, what's happening in the environment that is causing this behavior and what's happening out here after it, that might move it in a direction in the future, in the same situation, um, then, then that's a huge step. And again, the consequences can affect future behavior, but if I'm here and now, what can I do to help this animal feel more comfortable to behave in the way that I want it to behave? And the, all, all we've got, all we've got right here, right now is how do I change these antecedents? How do I change the picture? And that, that was a moment and continues to be moments for me because it's, it's happening all the time. I know I go on, don't I? Long story. I do think you kind of addressed what I was going to ask you next, which was why the focus on antecedents in particular for the talk. Right, right. Yep. So can you just share an example or two kind of of the power that antecedents can have when they're properly, properly understood and, you know, kind of used strategically in training? The thought that comes to me so, so, so early on in my career, when I'd first gone across to Steve Martin Natural Encounters and was doing some work with him learning about, um, uh, bird training, free flight bird training, um, was I was working a toucan and all I was doing, all I had to do, the simplest thing was to get it gone, undone its performance, um, in the show. And I needed to get it back on my hand, feed it a grape and then put it into its crate. And, um, as I was waiting there, I realized that there was a little statue by its crate that was not normally there. And I thought to myself, that's going to freak this bird out. I will just move it there over to here. And everything was fine. And Melissa, I couldn't have told you back then that what I did was, um, an antecedent arrangement, change the antecedent arrangements to get the behavior more likely to, you know, it's just like, just move the statue, you know? And, and the, the, the thing is without going and, and, and learning and delving into, well, okay, well, there's actually a science about this and they call it this. It's, it's so easy for us as humans to say, for me to tell that story and for me, if I'm that way inclined or for other people to say, oh, you know, Peter's just so intuitive, you know, she's got so much skill. Oh, you know, for only we could all be like her. And it's like, you can be, you can be.

It's just that, um, that, you know, anyone would have seen that great big statue and moved it knowing the sensitive nature of these birds. But then we can go to the science and say, oh, okay, that's about antecedent control. And that's what it's called. And I think that the great thing about antecedents is that when we talk about the, um, fact that there's not just behavior, there's these consequences going on that we're all pretty good at. We're at least getting, we're getting better at it. We get, yeah, we get better at it. But there's also these antecedents. The consequences only affect future behavior. They don't affect behavior right here and now. So the only way, if I walk into a situation and I've got a behavior problem and I don't have a reinforcement history with the animal or the reinforce, the animal doesn't have a reinforcement history in this particular context or with me. The only thing I've got to influence behavior right there and then is manipulation of the environment. The antecedents, those stimuli that are present that, that to some degree are, uh, uh, influencing that problem behavior. And so they are incredibly powerful in a way that consequences can't be for us. Consequences will move future behavior in that same environment, but they're not going to help us right here, right now, because they are for the next time and for the next time. And I'm in my talk. Um, I've got some great examples of situations where I've been on set. Um, and, um, the funny thing about working animals in film is that when, um, you get a call, oh, we've got this film and we need a doll. And, and they, they always are saying to you, you know, the dog just needs to do this. The dog just needs to do a sit stay. The dog just needs to bark on command. The dog just needs to, and, and it's like, okay, great. I've got dogs that can do that, that fit the bill. Um, but, um, what else is going on while the dog is doing that? What else is going on? And seriously, we've learned that you can never ask, ask enough questions and you will never ask all the questions you need to ask. Like, it's like to the point where it's like, and are you changing the color of the sky for this scene? Because that might impact on the dog doing the behavior, but because everybody thinks, and, and subsequently they say, okay, you've got two weeks training for this cat to do this. And you go, yes, fantastic. And so when you get to set, they say, okay, just put the cat in there and will it do it? Because you've, it's trained, right? And you're like, yes, but, but do you see that man in a hairy, hairy ape?

I didn't know that that was going to be, he said, the cat might just take a bit of time to get used to the man in the hairy ape suit. Because I forgot to ask if there was a man in a hairy ape suit. So, so I think, I think, I think again, as, as in my work, both the film work and nose work, which is the other great topic I get to talk about. So often I've been forced to think about antecedents because consequences aren't going to start to impact on the behavior until the next time and the next time and the next time. Yeah. Until the dog, the dog or the animal has already done a behavior. That's right. At least once, at least once. Yes. Yeah. So you mentioned the nose work. That is what your second presentation is on. I want to talk about that too. So you're talking about how and why nose work classes can be therapeutic for dogs. Tell me just a little bit about that. What impacts have you seen nose work have? So much. And, and like so many other people out there, we've all, I've got these amazing stories about giving dogs the opportunity to use their nose in a safe environment, blah, blah, blah. And, and the thing, what, what really influenced me to want to start talking and sharing my thoughts, you know, so often these talks, you know, it's like we think, oh, I'm listening to so-and-so. And it's like, they're the expert. And then all the people who had just got their, their ear in are just the other, other learners. And more and more, the, the, the sort of playing field is leveling out because every single person out there listening would have something to, something to share about that topic as well. You know what I mean? And, and, and, and I, and I specifically say that in this area of therapeutic nose work, because it's so new in the dog world and it's so new to start really thinking of it in this way. Um, so I, I really started sort of to question the therapeutic value of nose work as a, as a broad arching statement. Um, when I started to do, um, workshops around the place and so subsequently around Australia. So I travel around and give these workshops on, um, uh, specifically the canine nose work methodology of, um, approach to nose work. Um, and I'd see dogs that had done nose work for a while, um, and had gone in and, and different methods, you know, just like in America and all around the world, everybody, some things, some ways make more sense than, than other ways to people. So we all have our, put our color on it. Um, um, but I started to see dogs who had done nose work for like 18 months and they were still terrified.

And I was like, okay, so, so what, what, what, why hasn't the, the impact, the positive impact of the therapeutic value happened with this dog as opposed to, you know, some other dogs that I've seen. And, and why am I, why can I get this dog into this situation and see it improve dramatically? What am I doing that maybe someone else isn't doing? And not to say I'm better than them, but what, um, what's going on here? What, what's, what, what, what's the difference? Cause that's our measure. We have to understand what specifically, you know, what is, what is going, the devil is in the details. What specifically is important about a nose work class if you want to milk and get the therapy aspect out of it? You know, it's, you know, because, um, so often, and, and, and I would hear people saying, oh, nose work so great for dogs and it's so good and it's so this. And I would, I would be able to think through my experience. Well, I see that many times, but sometimes I don't. So what's the difference? And that's behavior, isn't it? You know, that is behavior. We, we, we need to forever strip away, strip away, strip away so that we can get to the finer detail in, in, in every aspect, both the behavior. And we know that we know if we want to move a behavior in a certain way, we're better off to split than to lump so that we get strength, strong behavior built on strong behavior, built on strong behavior. Thank you, Bob Bailey. We know with the consequences, it's not just giving a bit of chicken. It's how you give that chicken. Do you throw the chicken? Do you hand the chicken? Do you place the chicken? You know, where do you place the chicken? All of those sorts of things. So that's what I wanted to do with nose work. I wanted to sort of go out there and say, well, what is it about nose work that is therapeutic? So that when people specifically come along and want, need to get the therapy aspect out of it, not just have it as a side effect to a lesser degree, what, what, what is it that we need to do as instructors? Or we should be focusing on as instructors if that's the point of the exercise, as opposed to teaching a dog to go and then sniff out birch and win a medal or whatever it happens to be. So, so yeah. And, and funnily enough, it's not really that funny, I guess, but, but so much of the area of what we need to be doing and focusing on is in the area of antecedent control. Funny that. Imagine that. Yeah, right. So you, you also kind of mentioned in the description that it's super important that nose work constructors be very good at kind of reading the animal. Right.

And then, like you said, kind of modifying those antecedents and consequences to build competence. So I want to just have you break that down just a little bit more. Can you talk a little more about what that looks like and kind of why being able to read the animal is such an important piece? A hundred percent. Yeah, a hundred percent. For me, when we're training an animal, whether it's, it's in the area of, I guess, what we would call more behavior modification, you know, that's when we talk, we generally sort of use that term when we're talking about improving problem behaviors as opposed to training. I mean, it's all the same. We know that. We focus on the behavior. We think our job, our job is to go in there and manipulate consequences and antecedents to move the behavior. But the question always is, how do I manipulate consequences and antecedents to move the behavior? What, how do I just go in there and throw spaghetti on the wall and see if it's cooked? Or do I, what's the information? Where do I get my information about what changes I need to make? That we get the information from the behavior of the animal, right? We watch that animal and we, we, we watch things, aspects of the behavior, like where are you orientating? How are you orientating? How quickly are you orientating? All of that information comes from the animal's behavior. And it is that behavior that tells us first and foremost, what the animal needs slash wants in that environment. And I say needs because so often we forget, especially in the area of nose work, if we go to a workshop or a class, that first time that that dog is in that environment, even if it's a dog that's, you know, the typical happy-go-lucky lab that, oh, nothing worries me. It is still, that animal still needs to ascertain its safety before it can go, what, there's chicken? And go and hunt for the chook or the chicken or whatever it is, or the tennis ball. And that asset, that, that may be as, as simple as looking around with a great big Labrador smiley grin on its face, or it might be as intense as taking 10 minutes off lead to go and sniff around the environment and realize that there's no boogeyman in the corner. But you get the information from that behavior. So observing behavior, definitely to the finite degree, for me, is all animal training, right? What are you telling me, animal? How do you, how do you want me to manipulate the environment and the consequences next, based on the information that you're giving me from your behavior?

And in nose work, and definitely when we're talking about the dogs that need the therapy of nose work, it is about saying, okay, you do what you, I've set up the environment so it's safe and, and, and secure for you. Nothing's going to happen here. But it's no good me telling you that you need to work that out yourself. So let me take the lead off and you do what you need to do. And that doing might be sitting by the owner shaking. That's behavior, that's information. Or that doing might be running around like a slobbery git nervously, but so many people would say, oh, look, he's so happy to be here. But in actual fact, you can say, no, I think he's a little bit nervous about this. And he's just one of those people at a party who's socially inappropriate because they're nervous. And so that behavior then tells me, okay, what do I need to do? Do I need to get mom to move around with you so you can have a sniff around? Do I, all of that kind of stuff. Oh, just so, so great. And, and you never stop getting better at reading behavior and interpreting it. In my experience, you never get better. You know, you think, I say to people, I thought I was really good with dogs. I thought I was great. And then I started nose work classes. And I realized just how much I was missing in what they were telling me about their internal state and what they needed from me. So, you know, that, that old saying, when the, when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. And nose work and nose work for therapy has been such a teacher for me in that area of, of reading and understand, reading behavior and understanding what I need to change in order to make that animal feel a little bit more comfortable. Mm-hmm. So I've got three questions I usually ask kind of at the end of the interview whenever I have somebody new on. So I want to kind of dive into those as we kind of approach the end here. So the first one is what is the training related accomplishment that you're proudest of? What's going through my head is, is several dogs that, or animals, but, but I think it's dogs. And I think I've pinpointed it that, that interestingly enough, I've helped not build amazing trick behavior on, but I've built amazing confidence in. And one of those, one of the dogs, we're going way, way back now, is a dog called Princess, was a dog called Princess. She'd be long dead now. And I met her when we did Babe Pig in the City. And when we did Babe Pig in the City, when I was just a wee youngster, we, we had five Dobermans to play the lead role.

You know, the, the, the, the handsome one for the closeups, the fast athletic one for the running scenes and all of that kind of stuff. And one of the ones we had was a Doberman called Princess. And she had, she was acquired by the production because she was no longer wanted. But she came from a, a puppy farm and she was a bitch, brood bitch that had just basically, I can't even remember how old she was, but she would have been maybe three or four. And she just had litter after litter after litter. And she'd never been out of her, you know, eight foot by five foot pen and all that kind of stuff yet. And so subsequently she was incredibly nervous of her environment. She had never been on a lead before. So, you know, putting her on a lead, I, I remember, and I would have, would do it very differently now, but I remember putting her on that lead and saying, okay, well, you know, I'm just going to take you out and you're going to get used to it. And her getting so, so frantic with fear because she was suddenly held captive, I guess is the way to say it from her point of view around her neck. And she couldn't go anywhere because she was on this six foot lead that she started to spin around, spin around, spin around to try and get free. And I was just standing there holding the lead, you know, it's like, oh, you'll be right. So, because remember, I had, like every single one of us, I had other trainers watching me at the time and I was a youngster. I was a youngster and they weren't positive reinforcement trainers. You know, they had a history of, of a lot of aversive training working for them and all that kind of stuff, blah, blah, blah. But she, she was, she was pissing and, and crapping. She was so scared. Anyway, long story short, and, and she couldn't learn. She, she just, well, she, it was so, she'd never really done it before. She'd never learned. She just had babies. And so teaching her to lie down and sit, it was just, anyway, I kept on going and I kept on going. And, and in the end, I remember there was a scene that, that we were shooting. That was a night scene and the other Doberman trainers and their Dobermans had gone and had this practical session with this bit of equipment on set, which was basically the scene was the dog, the, what do you call it? The Doberman and the, and the bull terrier were to run out in between this picket fence. And in the film, it had to look like the chain that they were attached to, they were attached to a tether that went in the ground, both of them.

And so it was that sort of tether that, that one book, one of the dogs ran on one side and one of the dogs ran on the other side of the fence. And it had to look like the, that chain ripped the fence all out, but the fence was on hydraulics. So it was just, as they ran past the, the props guys had to hit the hydraulic thing and, and it was terrifyingly loud. You know, it was that real sort of air. The trainer who was looking after us, the American trainer said, don't worry about princess. She'll be, she won't be able to do this. So, you know, we'll take the other dogs up there and get them used to it. And they're getting used to it was, I mean, we're talking 30 years ago. It was stay there. You know, you will stay there. You, I'm going to make you more scared of me than, than the sound of this. That was fine. They did that. But in the, in the, in between sort of us getting access to this hydraulic fence and the, and the scene, I would go up there with my partner in crime, Lindy Coote. Um, and I would say, okay, what I want you to do is just press the button. So it just goes once and I'm going to feed her some food because she was a guts. Awesome. Princess is a guts. Um, and I built up her, her comfort with the sound in that way. Come to the shoot night. It was a night shoot, like I said. So we were very much boarded by sunset and sunrise. It was the first scene that we were shooting on that night. Um, and when it came to sort of half past five, quarter to six in the morning, when they still hadn't got it, Carl came up to me and he said, and he was this dear man. He's again, long, long, long dead. Used to, he, he worked on Lassie and Rin Tin Tin movies, right? Carl Lewis Miller, amazing man. And he was a small man and he always used to have brill cream in his hair and you could tell how stressed he was by how much his fringe had come down. Right. And so we came up and his fringes all down and he said, will princess do this? And I went, yes, because I had no idea, but I knew what I'd done. Right. I knew what I'd done. And I, and so, and basically we got the shot. We got the shot with that dog running through. I start to cry. It was 30 years ago. I get goosebumps. And, and that was, that was all hydraulics equals a bit of food. Hydraulics equals a bit of food. And was she uncomfortable about it? A hundred percent. I'm not going to tell you that she ran through that like it was a daisy field. She was like, oh crap, I don't really like it. But you know what? There's sausage on the other side. And off she went. Um, and that just, that just showed me from like a dog that just was terrified of everything

to a dog that would go, okay, I'm uncomfortable with it, but I can do it. And yes, I would do it differently now and all that kind of stuff. But it was a real moment of, thank God I had moments like that because they're the ones that when you think about, I'll just stick a check chain on the dog and come on, you'll be all right. Hang on a minute. Hang on a minute. No, hang on. I know, I know that there's more to this than the behavior that I'm currently focused on. And that's, isn't, isn't that what we're all about? There's more to this than the behavior, whether you're on a film set or whether you're in your own home, there is so much more to this than this particular behavior. So yeah, dear princess. Wow. What a teacher. What a story. Uh, so the, the next one here on my little list, man, now you have to roll out a big story for each of these. Sorry. Sorry. No, no, it's good. Um, what's the best piece of training advice that you've ever heard? I don't know, to be honest, if, if I can, you know, I'm speechless, Melissa. I don't know. Cause there's so much good information that's out there. And there's so many, there's so many quirky, fantastic, smart people. Um, and I think, I think probably the, the, the, the best bit of training advice that I ever, ever heard and I've heard a million times in different ways is you've just got to get your hands dirty and do it. You've got to get your hands, you've got to get in there and, and do it rather than read a million books rather than, you know, you've got to get in there and give it a burl. And, um, and the only way you get better at training is to train. Um, and I think so often people, we think that, um, we have to have a reason to train, whether it's nail file or, or eye drops or a behavior that the dog has to take on set and perform immaculately. I so often, so often the training that I do with my dogs at home or my animals is me having one of my, I call them what if sessions, what if, okay, I'm teaching you to go to this station. What if, what happens if I throw as in the name of reinforcement, instead of the food coming to you, I throw it to the right. How does that influence your behavior? So I take, I don't put, I remove any kind of emotional, um, uh, association I have with the behavior. I, I remove any pressure if it's a, you know, if to, to have a, have a goal. And I just watch those principles of learning influence behavior in the real world. So I train, I train to be a better trainer. I don't train for an end result of, of now my dog can do this. I like that.

Uh, last one here, which is who is somebody else in the training world that you look up to? I think every single one of us can run off names like Friedman and Ramirez and Pryor and all of those gorgeous, gorgeous people who, oh, I'm just, I'm so lucky. I'm so lucky to be one of the old schoolers because I knew them. Um, I went and did some, I remember, here's a fun story. Um, when Ken Ramirez first came to Australia, however long ago that was, I have no, no idea. I was just started in the zoo industry and, and this man was like, say, give all these stories. And I'm like, we had two days with him and I just could not believe this man. And I went up, you know, as I, as I often do, um, you know, I want to learn more from you. How do I do it? You say, yeah, you should come and do an internship at Shedd Aquarium. I'd never worked a marine mammal in my life. Okay. I say, okay, sir. And, um, and I went and did a week at Shedd, um, and I stayed with Ken Ramirez at his place. Um, and, um, and then I went on and did, I think it was the second ever Clicker Expo. Oh my God, it was way back then. Um, so obviously those names, but, but I think we all have to recognize that, that you don't, you don't have to be a name to be able to teach people things, to teach others things, or we don't, we should, I guess I'll say it this way. We should be looking in our own backyard for people to learn from because it is there. And, um, you know, um, I've got some amazing teachers out here who no one will have ever heard of, but they're the people that when I, um, have a question or when I need clarification, um, um, and I need a different point of view, I've only got one brain. So as long as I can find other people who have the same philosophy in training as I do, then if I can go and borrow their brain for a bit, you know, then, um, I I'm, I'm winning because now I've got more brain, um, and a different way of looking at it. And that again, is such an important thing. You don't know you've got your blinkers on until someone takes your blinkers off. And then you go, Oh my Lord, I can't believe I wasn't thinking so obvious, you know? Um, so, um, so as much as, you know, this amazing technology and the Lemonade Conference is so obviously a great example of, of this, that what we're, we, you know, there's going to be so many grumpy animal trainers around the world because we're going to be so tired. We're going to be exhausted. Right. So, you know, maybe we should all have this thing on Facebook, bear with me. It's a Lemonade, you know, stage I'm going through, you know? Um, but, um, but, but yes,

I think, you know, while there's the names and I, as I said, I can rattle them off and I do rattle them off because I would be absolutely nowhere in nowhere near where I am in my understanding, especially of the science of, um, and the application of the science, um, in the real world as I would be without the, the teaching of Susan Friedman. But I also know that when those teachers are not available to me, then I, I, I, I need, I, it's really important to have other people who you're close to, to bounce off, to help clarify what those big name teachers are teaching you. Does that make sense? To really get it into your brain and, and your system, your soul, I guess, so that it's not just, this is how I train animals. So it's, this is how I live. This is how I want to, and I'm going to slip and I'm going to fall. And I'm, and, and there's going to be people who say, well, Peter Clark doesn't practice what she preaches. Um, but I pick myself up and I learned from that. I apologize when I need to, and I, I continue on. So, um, so yeah, big names and, and, and small names. It doesn't matter. We're all sort of in this together, I think. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Peter. Thank you, Melissa. Thank you. We moved around a bit. Someone's, I've got my, I've got the lawnmower man out the front and, and, and we had to move around a bit. Melissa was so patient. Fantastic. So, um, so no, and I look forward hopefully to meeting at least, you know, some of the people who are listening virtually on the, um, on the, on the lemonade conference in a, oh my gosh, what? 20 days or something. Oh my goodness. It's going to be great. At the point of recording. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you again. And thank you to our listeners for tuning in. We will be back next week. Don't miss it. If you haven't already subscribed to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice, they have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Thank you.