E188: 케빈 링스태프(Kevin Ringstaff) - "반려동물의 상실 대처하기"

I have another company called grievingatwork.com where I teach management how to deal with grief when it comes into the workplace. Like what do you do after your employee comes back from bereavement leave? Right? They're still grieving. They're still deep in it. And how do you reincorporate them back into the workplace? Such a hard topic in today's world. And it's just, you know, in some ways it still feels very taboo. What kind of led you into the field? I got into this field of grief through a loss of my own. My first cat, Henry Fats Rothschild. This, this fat orange tabby cat. And when he ran away, there was no one in my life that I really felt comfortable with talking about my grief to. And so I just held on to it for months and months and then years. And then, and generally like I, like it's one of those things that I did with all of my grief. Right? If you don't know how to talk about grief, you hold on to it. You carry it with you. And eventually I found out about the Association of Pet Loss and Bereavement, the aplb.org. And they offer certifications to help other people who are going through this kind of loss. And I found out I was really good at it. But it was, I was, I'm like very easy to talk with and just, you know, I help people. I'm, I'm part of that silent presence that you really need when you're grieving. So when we were, when we were introduced, you shared a link to your podcast guest profile, which I have to say is kind of a neat thing. And one of the kind of suggested questions there was what do our pets mean to us? And that seems like a good place to kind of dig in a little bit. So what do our pets mean to us? Well, it depends on the person, but like for most people, when we have pets, they mean everything to us. They're our constant companion. Like we have our pets for 10, 15 years. And every single day when we come home from work or whatever, no matter what kind of day we had, they're, they are there with us. They're happy to see us. They're, they're just a constant companion to us. And when you do, when you, when you're with someone or something or an animal, like for that long, for that, those many years, it builds up this level of intimacy, right? We have this intimacy with our animals that we don't even have with other humans, right? Not, not even, not even children. Eventually your children are going to start growing up. They're going to feed themselves, dress themselves, go off and do their own thing. But our animals are always 100% under our control. From the time we get them until the time we let them go.

And it just, it just creates this, this human animal bond that is just very intense. Now let's think about it. Like, like your animals have seen you naked more than anyone else. Right. Right. And like when, when you, when you lose that, when you lose that relationship, when you lose that ability to give nurture, it's so hard. And that's even more so they even, they mean even more so to us now because of this whole pandemic. Many of us are isolating alone and our pets are the only other contact that we get. So maybe this is, you know, almost too simple of a question, right? But what is grief? So what is normal or not normal when dealing with it? Can you just kind of talk a little bit about what grief is and is it all kind of the same or not? Or, you know, that kind of. Sure. Yeah. I'd love to. Like grief is simply love with nowhere to go. It's a reaction to having to say goodbye to something. Grief is one of those things that it's, it's very hard to describe because every single person grieves differently. And it's just our reaction to that loss. Because when we lose something, we generally want some things to be better or different or more. Like we want more time. And we always do. And not having that, that's that part of that grief. And normal grief is kind of hard to describe too because we're not in normal times anymore. But generally, like a normal, like when we first lose something, when we first have a loss, it's called acute grief. It's so painful. It's so raw. And, and that's generally universal regardless of the type of loss. But it gets into like abnormal or complicated grief when those feelings, those acute feelings of loss last for weeks and weeks and months. And they just keep going. And we just feel stuck in this rut where we, where we, when we wake up in the morning, the first thing we think about is our loss. We go to sleep at night. The last thing we think about is our loss. And we're just on this, this thought pattern that just never ends. And it's so hard. And now, because like I told you about the, it's not, nothing's, nothing's normal anymore. But like with, with COVID and shelter in place, we have double isolation, right? Grief is normally isolating. It's, it's hard to feel connected when we're grieving. But now we're isolated and grieving and it makes it worse. You kind of mentioned in there, the idea of acute grief and, and you kind of mentioned earlier, this idea that with our pets, like we, we kind of have that control kind of over their whole life. And I think those things kind of all weave into it, right?

So especially kind of towards the end of life, we often have hard decisions to make about when it's time and whether or not we want to, you know, kind of help bring things to a peaceful end. So obviously that decision could be one of the hardest things you have to decide during the entire life of your pet. Do you have any advice or words of wisdom or even good ideas of things to say to those who, you know, are struggling with that decision? Yeah, Melissa, like, like you said, that's, that's one of the hardest choices that many people ever have to make in their life. And a lot of people think that they're playing God by making that decision. And that makes it even more uncomfortable. But in, in making that decision, I like to look at the quality of life of your pets. And, and, and when we, when we look at it, we look at like a bunch of different metrics, like how well can they breathe? Are they in pain? Are they constantly in pain? Are they eating, sleeping? Are, are they defecating inside the house? Like how, how are their bowels doing? Do they have energy? Are they a part of the family? Because we're like when, and, and like your dog will feel the, the loss of will, well-being, right? They know when they're not feeling well. They, they do a fantastic job of hiding it. Right. And it like this, like these decisions can really sneak up on people because they do a great job of hiding. But we can look at these metrics. We can see like what it looks like when your dog is in pain, what it looks like when they're not eating correctly or when they're walking slower. And, and going back to the idea of euthanasia and making that decision, like it's, I don't, I don't think that we're playing God when we make this decision. Right. Right. Like death is going to happen. Like no matter what, there's nothing we can do about it. Eventually it's going to happen. And what I like to tell people when you're making that decision of euthanasia, like this is not something that we're doing to our pets. It's something we do for them. We do it for them. We take them out of their pain. We relieve that suffering from them. And when you're looking at your, your pet, that, that boy or girl that you've loved for, you know, 10, 15 years, and you're having to make that decision. Like we, we look at what is their, how are they enjoying life? Is it still worth it to them? Because out in nature, they would have probably died a long time ago. Like there's no like real old dogs naturally in nature because what's nature's vicious. Yeah.

So especially, you know, within older or an already sick pet, it can be really easy to kind of, you know, begin that process or begin to feel grief or begin grieving. You know, even while they're still here, kind of in anticipation of that loss. Is there anything we can do really to still ensure that we enjoy the time they have left? Yeah. I call that anticipatory bereavement. It's like when you know something bad is going to happen, but you can't do anything about it. I was thinking about that recently. And one of the best things that we can do is to be grateful, is to practice gratitude. Because I like to think of an hourglass, right? And the top of that hourglass with all the sand in it is the future. And the bottom of that hourglass is the past. And this tiny little narrow section in the middle, that's where we live. And we can't do anything about the future. And we can't change the past. But we can be present with our pets right now. We can enjoy this time now with them. And we can be grateful and tell them that we're grateful every single day. And I do that with my dog now, too. He's going to be 13. He's kind of going blind. I can see him struggling to get up a little bit. And I know he's not going to be here forever. But I'm grateful now. He's sitting right here at my feet, panting. You might even be able to hear it. But I tell him every single day. And I'm present with that. Every single day. And when we are, it takes the fear of the future away. So once that time does arrive, how do you help pet owners deal with that sense of loss? No, that's tough. And I mean, it really is. And it absolutely depends on that person. You know, what kind of support structures do they have? Do they have friends and family in their life that they can talk with about this? Like there's no magical thing that I or anyone else can ever say that's going to change this or bring them back or make it better. And the only thing that we can ever say is, I'm so sorry for your loss. And just give them space. Especially when it's, especially when it just happens because, you know, back into that acute phase and everything's raw. Everything's so intense and emotional. And just to have someone there who understands this kind of loss and who isn't going to judge you and that you can just ugly cry in front of. Right? And for someone to hold that space with you is about the best thing that, you know, I can do for someone. And, you know, by the way, anyone listening to this can do these things for any friend or family member in your life who's going through this kind of loss. Or any loss, really.

But it's just like we hold that space. We let them be however they need. What are some options? I mean, you mentioned in there, depends on kind of their support structure and what they have. So, you know, what are some options out there if listeners want or need additional support beyond, you know, their own friends or their own family? Or maybe they don't quite have that support structure. You know, what's out there for them after loss? Yeah, that's a good question. At my website, PetCloud.ped, every Sunday I have free support groups, 3 p.m. and 6 p.m. every single week. Especially on holidays, too, because holidays are really rough for a lot of people. But I'm not the only one that's out there. I mentioned the APLB. They have support groups that are the ones that I do are Zoom. So, you know, Brady Bunch style with everyone talking and supporting one another that way. But we also have the APLB, which does chat-based chat rooms. So, for people who don't want to be on camera or on a phone, you know, you have that option. And there's tons of books and articles to read to learn a little bit more about grief. And maybe not so much now, but normally, you could go to your local SPCA or Humane Society, and sometimes they have local support groups that are in person. Probably not now, right? But normally, they do. And I like to recommend that people journal. Write it down. And we can do journaling even if we don't have anyone else. Because it's just us with our feelings writing it down and being present with our grief and pain. So, FDSA listeners are definitely not, you know, that type of people who think it's just a pet. You know what I mean? Kind of that dismissive attitude. But there are certainly still a lot of people out there who might think or feel that way. And some may even come right out and say it. So, you know, how would you respond to somebody who makes that type of a comment? How do you handle that? Yeah, that's tough, too. Because when you're going through this, you're in that acute grief state and people come up and even well-meaning people that honestly look out for the best for you. They can say some, like, horribly tactless things. Like, why don't you just get another one? Or it was just a dog. Or it's hard to respond to that. And I like to tell people that, well, you don't have to. Because, like, when we're grieving, we have a limited supply of energy. And who we choose to tell other, when we choose to tell other people about our loss, we need to make sure that they're going to be receptive to it. Because we're just wasting our energy otherwise.

And if you know, if you have someone in your life that you know is going to be problematic like that, avoid them. Like, you don't need that in your life. And you can come back to them, you know, in a couple months, you know, later on down the road. And we all have friends like that who turn out to be more like acquaintances. There's an expression, grief rewrites your address book. You find out which of your friends are really there for you and which ones are more superficial. And I don't say superficial in a bad way. Grief is really hard for a lot of people to talk about. But it's, you know, if they're not there for you, it doesn't serve you to have them in your life. And we can just choose ourselves. Like, we choose ourselves and our recovery over them and anything else that they have to bring. So on the flip side of that, right? So what if we want to make sure we're not that tactless person, right? We're going to make sure that we are there for friends or family members who have lost a pet. What are some things that we could do to support those around us when, you know, they're going through this type of loss? The main thing and the best thing that you can do is just be there. You don't even have to say anything because remember, there's nothing that we can say to bring them back or to undo this. So we don't try to fix the problem. Well, furthermore, like I don't think grief is a problem, something to be overcome. It's just a natural reaction to loss and love. But like we don't, we don't need to fix them. We don't need to cheer them up. We don't need to try to change anything about them. We just need to be there with them and go through this process with them because it's going to take time. You know, if, if these comments that we'd say were actually helpful, then no one would ever be grieving. Right. But like, I like to tell people that it's going to last a while. Grief is. When you lose a 15 year old dog and it's been three months, well, you're not even 1% into the timeframe that you've had that dog. You haven't even said you haven't, 1% of that time hasn't even gone by yet. After three months of grieving. And this is going to take time to readjust that into their lives and being consistent, consistently showing up for your friends week after week. Keep checking in on them. Keep doing it. Even if they don't, even if they turn you down every single time, you still do it. And we just keep doing it because, you know, it's a long haul.

Now to kind of think about, you know, your end of things, I'd imagine it can, you know, sometimes be hard to always be the one there for people who are going through this stuff. Right. It's a heavy load. You know, how do you handle that? Any advice for others? Yeah, that's, it's not always easy. And, you know, this past week wasn't all that easy for me either. And there are some stories that just get to me. Like there was, there was a woman who called on Saturday, this past Saturday, who, like she, she's elderly and she's going to have, she just had to give, give up her 16 year old cat. Because like, she just physically couldn't take care of him anymore. And, you know, he was a diabetic cat and she physically couldn't give those, those, you know, take care of him medically or financially. She couldn't afford it. And, but she's also lost her husband a year ago. And this was his cat. Right. And when she, and she had to give this cat up, it's like, she's giving up her husband again, too. And it's, you know, that, that one in particular got to me of, because I'm listening and I'm there with them as they're going through this. And I'm imagining what it would, what I would have to go through if, if I had to give up Ponce or Brody because of finances, government order, or, you know, medical issues that I just can't do. And it's so hard. But one thing that I really love doing is listening to stories. Because when we talk about grief, right, we talk about, you know, like months and months after that death and those, those last horrible memories, those last painful memories that are so, so hard to forget. But we, we don't really talk about all those other years that we had together. Years and years and years and years of happiness. And I like to tell people or ask people to tell me stories of all that time. And they always have stories and they're always heartwarming. And I can generally get people to smile and laugh and cry and, and remember more than just pain. And just remembering more is one of the things I like to help people do. And I guess personally, it's just self-care too. I have to take care of myself. You know, meditation, eating, staying sober, exercise, sleep, all that jazz. But most of all, it's reminding myself of why it is I do this and why I want to help and why I'm here. But it is so profound to, to be with someone as they're going through that and to witness them come through grief too, to re-engage in life, to smile again, to help other pet cloud people through their process too. Because we learn from one another.

When we're, when we're in groups, we see people who have just started and we see people who are just about finished. And we see all of that and all of those perspectives together. It helps to know that other people have gone through it and are going through it. Exactly. Any, you know, kind of final words of advice or things I didn't ask that you'd want to share? Well, I'd like to remind everyone that there is no finish line in grief. There's no, there's no magical point. There's no magical spot or a timeframe that when, when you cross that, you're just going to be done grieving. Some losses were never going to be done grieving. And that's okay. That doesn't mean we can't re-engage in life. That just means when we're, we're always going to miss them. I just had the cat jump up in my lab. Because we don't have this finish line, supporting someone in your life is just a matter of showing up consistently. In fact, it's some of the greatest gifts that you can give your friends and family. Like, just to demonstrate by your actions that you're interested in their stories and their grief. And that you're not going to run away from it. Like, don't, like, don't judge anything that they're going through. It's not, it was just a dog or it's just a cat. There's no such thing. Right? We, we, everyone grieves at a hundred percent and we grieve according to how much that we've lost. There's a great quote that I like that says, grief is love's receipt. Again, I would like to tell people to refrain from giving advice. Like, you don't have to know what to say or do, but it's more important that you, like, you don't have to know what to say or do. Like, like, they're not coming to you really for advice. They're just coming to you for support, comfort, encouragement, camaraderie, understanding. And we can provide practical offers of help. It's like, let's get specific with it. Like, I don't, I don't like to tell people, like, you, we've all heard, let me know if I can do anything. Call me if I can do anything. But that's not helpful because, like, when you're grieving, you're not going to call someone if you need anything. Like, so let's be more specific. Like, I'll, I'll, I'll cook dinner for you Friday night and come over and we'll watch Netflix. Um, I'll come over on Sunday morning and mow your lawn if you need. Send them flowers. Uh, deliver food for them. You know, take them out. Go over there and bug them even when they don't want you to. You know, we've talked about there's no finish line for grief, but, like, this, it's over whenever it is. Mm-hmm. And there's no rushing it.

I will say, I think, you know, kind of in the dog sports world especially, so often we have a lot of video content of us and our dog together. And so often we have, um, you know, perhaps even more than most of our pets out there, right? Like, we actually have a community that's built around our animals. And so, um, other people have memories of our, of our pets. And other people have thoughts and things they can share. And I know, you know, I've heard a couple of times from, from folks that it can be really helpful. The things that matter the most after loss was when somebody could say, you know, honestly, oh, I remember them as such. You know, those shared memories can really have an impact. And, um, I don't know if you want to weigh in on that at all, but I just kind of thought it was relevant. Yeah, yeah. Like, like as, like I brightened up as you were talking about it, because I forgot about mentioning online memorial ceremonies. Like, so when we have a human loss, we have a funeral, we have a memorial, we have societal expectations on what that's going to look like. We have everyone come together to show support and validate your loss, but you don't, you don't have that with a pet. And, but we can have that. We can bring all, everyone together who knew that animal, who knew that dog or that cat. And they can all, just like you were saying, just get together over Zoom or wherever. It's Zoom now, but, you know, wherever to tell those stories, to share exactly what they meant. And it's, and it's very heartwarming, especially for the person grieving to hear 20 other people say, yeah, that dog touched my life. And it's very meaningful. And that's what like funerals are for public support and validation for our grief. So, so you mentioned the idea of an online memorial. Do you have any other thoughts on just like structure for that or ways to kind of set that up? Or is it really just such an individual thing that? Yeah. Yeah. On my website, I have a whole page all about him. And you set that up essentially just like a human memorial. Or you can do it however you'd like to, but generally you bring people together. You have someone share a little bit about who it was and why we're all here. And then you have us, you know, some music and you might have an open mic session where anyone can just come up and share their stories. And then you have a slideshow. You put, put all the pictures in there, put some music, and then maybe a closing message. And then that's it. Maybe an hour, hour and a half. But that hour and a half is going to mean the world to that person. Yeah. All right.

Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast to talk about all this, Kevin. It's such an important topic. Oh, thank you, Melissa, so much for having me on. You know, I love talking about grief because it's something that once we learn how to support others in our life, grief becomes less scary. It becomes more manageable. And it becomes more profound because there is a lot of beauty in it. Well, thank you again. And thank you to our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week. Don't miss it. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fendi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fendi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Be with us. Be with us. Thank you.