E130: 마이클 시카시오(Michael Shikashio) - "입마개와 원치 않는 만남"

So she actually approached me in early June about, of this year, about like saying, hey, Mike, do you want to take over the Muzzle Up Project? Because I'm going to be pursuing more of the human side of psychology. So she's pursuing a different career, which, and then she said, you know, you want to take it over? I'm like, yeah, because it's a no brainer. I mean, it just fits into what I do. So I am a big advocate for muzzles and why you would want to use a muzzle on dogs and all the consequences that can happen. If a dog is a muzzle, then they do bite. And it's not, muzzles aren't just used for, you know, dogs that bite. There's a lot of other reasons, of course, that we can talk about in regards to why would we use muzzles. And that's what the Muzzle Up Project is about. Do you want to go into that just a little bit? What are some of the other reasons somebody might use a muzzle? Yeah. So there's some dogs that eat things off the ground. That's a big one. A lot of dogs have pica and they'll just go and eat stones or things they're not supposed to, the occasional dead squirrel or something that we don't want them touching. So that's a great use of a muzzle. It can be a preventative measure for dogs that might have issues at the vet's office or dogs that might get injured. We might have times where the dog's never bitten anybody perfectly fine, but any dog in pain or with a severe trauma could bite. So it's really good to have as a proactive measure to prevent anything from happening. They're also good for fearful dogs. So dogs that are, you know, they don't necessarily bite, but they kind of suffer from what humans like to do, and that's reach out and pet dogs when they don't ask. And it's a good kind of a universal for most people, a universal way of saying, you know, hey, back off. This dog maybe doesn't want to be pet because the muzzle allows that kind of message to come across to the person approaching. They might think twice before petting on a muzzled dog. So it can be kind of a helpful signal for the humans. Mm-hmm. So what is it about this project that kind of calls to you? What is it about the mission that's important to you and kind of led you to take up the cause? Again, it's all about advocacy and kind of education, just teaching the public or helping the public understand that there are, you know, why we use muzzles, the benefits of muzzles. And, you know, again, I can go into some of the consequences. You know, I always say muzzles are much cheaper than dog bites. And, you know, dog bites have enough stigma alone.

I mean, when a dog bites or there's a severe attack, it just makes the media much more so than the kid falling off the swing set in the backyard who might get injured more than, you know, the average dog bite. But I think the muzzling part of things can really, really help prevent dog bites and reduce the number of dog bites we're seeing. If more people would muzzle their dogs in public or when they have visitors and in certain circumstances where they would be wise to use one. So, and again, dispelling the stigmas. People will have this view of muzzles saying, oh, my gosh, that's so cruel. And, oh, my gosh, my dog's going to look like Hannibal Lecter. Or, oh, that's going to keep his mouth shut. He's not going to be able to breathe or eat. And so there's lots of misconceptions about muzzles. And, again, the Muzzle Up Project is there to help educate, you know, folks on all of the different, you know, truths about muzzles. And all of that can be found. We're currently revamping the website. That should be up soon. And we're going to have all the usual educational videos about proper fitting and how to acclimate a muzzle, the different brands of muzzles. Lots of good educational resources will be available. They are on the current site. The current site is still up, but we'll have a new site with more. And we'll be adding more resources as we go along. Awesome. That was actually going to be my next question for you. Just to get into a little bit kind of what resources the project offers. If folks want to get involved or help in some ways, are we for them to do that? Yeah. So the community is the best way that we can support this project. So, for instance, when I took over the project, you know, Maureen had started like a little Instagram account. And I went in. I'm like, oh, she's got like five posts over a couple of years' time. And, you know, she had a couple hundred followers. But I went in. I searched up the hashtag muzzle up project. And there were thousands upon thousands of people using that post. So for whatever reason, muzzle up project hashtag has gone viral on Instagram. And so just that community using that kind of using social media as a community to support muzzling. So we have all of these people all around the world that they're using that hashtag and they've got their dogs having fun in muzzles and all kinds of different environments. So and then we've got the Facebook group as well, our Facebook page, the muzzle up project on Facebook, which, again, is a community of people from around the world just sharing

ideas about muzzles and spreading the information about how muzzles can be used. I should mention that I've got a great team. I brought on Kayla Fratt, Deb Jones, Jim Gillies, Dave Grodin, and Sarah McManneman. They're all helping with the project. And I can't thank them enough. They're volunteering all their time to help maintain the social media accounts. And Kayla is designing the website as we speak. That's awesome. Do you have any kind of big goals or things that you're hoping to achieve with the project kind of going forward? I'd like to take it even, you know, Maureen's done a wonderful job building a great family. She built, I think, 14,000 followers on just the Facebook page alone. And it's really well known in the training world, but I would like to see it get more out into the general public. So I'm looking at partnering with some of the large manufacturers of muzzles. I'm in talks with some of them to help really expand the message and get this out to the masses and to the mainstream. Because it's pretty well known in the dog training community, but I think it'd be very helpful to get it out to the public eye and really expand just how much exposure the message is getting. And kind of the advocacy part of it and the education part of it would be really great to see kind of hit the masses. So it seems kind of like you've kind of made it your mission at this point to advocate for and do what you can to help those types of dogs, right? Those dogs who may be struggling with activity or some aggression stuff, which I'm guessing is what led us to the topic for your next webinar, Close Encounters of the Unwanted Kind. So I wanted to talk about that a little bit. What kind of encounters are we talking about here? So this webinar is going to be geared towards, it's kind of like a hodgepodge of all the questions I get at my workshops or seminars. You know, hey, Mike, what should I do if an off-leash dog approaches my on-leash dog? Or what happens if some dogs come attack my dog and we're just walking on leash? Or other types of handling nightmares for people is when they are in a close quarter environment and they're trying to control like the threshold or they're trying to prevent their dog from barking and lunging at somebody, but they can't because they're so close to that or that the environment doesn't allow them to increase distance or do the things that we would normally do in a kind of clean training scenario. So I'll be focusing on things like that. People that live in the city or in apartment buildings, they have to take the elevator, they have to take the narrow stairs.

So a lot of defensive handling tactics. And so, yeah, it's going to be a little bit of that, kind of like what to do if you can't modify the environment to set the dog up for success. So, yeah, all those what if moments are like, oh boy, moments when things go wrong. So for folks listening, it'll be September 26th at, so three o'clock Pacific time slot is when we're going to do that. So let's get into that stuff a little bit. What can people do if an off-leash dog runs up to them when they're on a walk and, you know, maybe they're unsure about whether the dog has good intentions or bad intentions? So I think that's a, as it always says, the saying is, it depends, right? It depends on the type of scenario. So, you know, you have kind of two basic scenarios. One is where friendly dogs come up to your on-leash dogs. Off-leash friendly dogs are coming. And that, you never know for sure. That's the thing. Like you can get good at reading body language and kind of how dogs will come up to your dog and get an idea and feel for it. But so you have those categories where it's off-leash dogs that are friendly. And then you have off-leash dogs that are not friendly. So you can immediately see trouble brewing or an actual attack happens. So there's two different scenarios. And one scenario you can kind of be a little friendlier with, meaning I call it like the neighborly option is to, for instance, you know, one of my first go-tos with dogs that are off-leash and say I'm walking at a park and then there's like somebody just playing with their puppy or their fetch with their lab or, you know, they're doing something with their border collie out there. And you can see that as generally a friendly dog. And maybe you see it interacting with the dogs, but then it comes running up to your dog. So the friendliest thing to do is as trainers and as dog enthusiasts here at FDSA, I'm sure a lot of us are carrying treats. So one thing I do is called the treat bomb where I dig into my treat pouch and grab a huge handful of treats. I mean, not just one, but a huge handful of treats. And as that dog's approaching, you throw the treats right in the dog's face. So it sounds a little offensive to throw treats in a dog's face, but I think most dogs will disagree that it's offensive. They kind of appreciate that. But it does sometimes startle the dog because they can't always tell what you're throwing unless they can really get a good whiff of it. So I do recommend throwing it right in the dog's face. So it kind of gets their attention. And then they're like, oh, that smells like hot dogs.

And then their nose down to the ground if they're going to take the food. So that's my kind of first friendly way of saying, okay, let's, let's try to ward this dog off. Because if my dog has issues with other dogs, that's kind of the nicer thing to do at first. And that works a lot of times because then the dog's nose down to the ground, they're looking for all the hot dogs, and then you can turn around, you can U-turn with your dog and get out of there as quickly as possible. And that's also the reason you don't want to just throw one treat because if you throw one, what do you think is going to happen? The other dog is going to say, oh, that guy was a hot dog. Let me follow this guy. So it's, it's important to give that kind of huge treat bomb. So that's, that's just the, that's usually the first step I take with off leash dogs. Now, if we want to start getting, moving into other variables. So if the treats don't work or the dog saying, oh, I'm really coming after your dog. I do recommend at least where people can get it. You can't get this everywhere, but at least in the States, you can get spray shield. So citronella spray made by PetSafe is a very good deterrent where you can spray that at the oncoming dog. Again, a more friendly option is just to spray it at the dog's feet or sort of in that, in that direction as best as you can, because oftentimes just the smell of that, the citronella can water off some dogs. Doesn't work every time. And by the way, none of these work every time. It's, it's, you're going to have, if you have enough tools in your toolbox, then you can kind of reach for the next tool if one doesn't work. So I do recommend spray shield. That is a very good way to ward off some dogs. If the dog doesn't notice that, then you can spray them again, right in the face. And just for the, for the listener spray shield is citronella. So it's not pepper spray or mace. It's not something that requires you to take the dog to the vet to have it washed out or anything. It just, it acts as a deterrence for most dogs. And so that's the next stage. And then we can go all the way on up the ladder, depending on where people live. Sometimes spray shield is not available. So you might even go with pepper spray. Now that of course you have, you run the risk of that blowing back into your dog's face or even into your own eyes. Or if you're not practiced at using those kinds of items, you might inadvertently spray yourself in the face and then you've got a huge mess. So I always recommend those things as last resort emergency scenarios to ward off a dog attack.

So a few different options in the webinar. We're going to get into much more, many more handling techniques that kind of require a little bit of video to show what's going on. Fair enough. Those are, those are for friendly dogs. Do you have different things that you do if you're pretty sure the dog means business and is going to try and take a chunk out of you or your dog? Yeah. So if, if, if it's, um, so, you know, some clients, they live in an area where there's a history of a certain set of dogs or there's lots of dogs that will get off leash or get out of the yard. And they do have a history of attacking other dogs. So you're pretty sure with reasonable, um, suspicion that the dog is going to attack your dog. So I usually don't reach for the treats at that point because we know that that likely won't work with that particular dog. So, or if you're seeing definitive body language, if you're seeing very obvious growling, snarling, charging at your dog, uh, with intent, then, then you would want to reach for us again, either the spray shield or the pepper spray. Um, you also want to use the environment a lot. So, and I'll get into this in the, again, in the webinar, but looking at the environment and becoming a very proactive versus reactive handler. So if you know your dog has issues with other dogs or you're in an environment where there's a high likelihood for an off leash dog, then it's, it's being a proactive handler is going to really keep you, uh, one step ahead of the game versus being reactive. So if you're, if you've got a dog that you're walking with and you know, this potential, you're going to be constantly scanning the environment aware of, Oh wait, I can get behind this car or I can use this particular bush to block the visual stimulus, or I can get my spray shield ready. Um, I can turn around if I see the dog coming and then get the spray shield ready. So all of those proactive techniques will, uh, kind of deter that attack a lot of times. So you don't actually have to deal with the, the actual attack with the dog. Um, but I will again, cover in to detail what happens, uh, if a dog does attack your dog. And I think that's important to know because, um, there's not a lot of good information about how to break up a dog fight or stop a dog attack. Uh, especially if it's multiple dogs that can get very scary and tricky. Right. Absolutely. Um, so like you said, I'm sure you'll get into these things more in the webinar, but it, it sounds like are the techniques that you're talking about, you know, specific to if you

have a reactive or really fearful dog, or are they really kind of anything, things that, you know, anyone could really use if they found themselves in those kinds of situations, um, regardless of kind of their own dog's temperament or likelihood to react. You know, the, the off leash dogs you would want, you can kind of think of it. It doesn't matter what your dog's issues in a sense are with other dogs when you're dealing with the off leash dogs coming at your dog. Now your own dog can make things worse. Of course, if they are reacting, quote unquote reacting, or, um, trying to go after the other dog. So sometimes dogs will communicate well and be like, all right, you're okay. And then I'm going to leave you alone or I'll move away. But other times it can actually escalate. If we have one dog starts barking at the dog that I have on leash, and then the dog I have on leash starts barking and lunging in the other direction. Then you have like this kind of heated situation. It just gets worse much faster. So again, it comes boils down to proactivity and of course, um, working with our own dogs to modify that behavior. And, uh, and again, proactive, proactive handling really can go a long way. So just, just to kind of throw it out there, one of the things that I hear tossed around sometimes is to drop the leash. Are you for or against that particular option? So I, I guess that would refer to, uh, when there's an actual dog fight happening, would that be kind of where you've heard it or? I think so. I think like when, when you think that there, something's going to happen and it's going to be bad. I've just heard folks say that sometimes it, uh, makes it worse because your dog's on leash. They can't get away if they want to. So that's a good question. So I'd like to dig into that a little deeper because it really matters. It really can make a difference in certain scenarios. So I think the drop the leash, uh, scenario sometimes would be helpful for dogs that are really, uh, have a difficult time when the leash gets tight because some dogs actually do really well if there's no leash. So off leash or with no tension on the leash, they feel kind of have this freedom to communicate. They have the freedom of movement. So they're not saying, Oh, I can't move. I can't get away. You're restricting my flight options. So I'm left with the fight option. Um, I'm, the frustrations building because I can't move. So there's a lot of problems with tight leashes. So that would be one scenario. If I have a dog that is very specific to that, meaning I know that if I dropped the leash, he's going to be like, Oh, freedom.

And let's romp around versus on leash. I hate being on leash because it's so restrictive for whatever reason. Um, so that's one scenario. The other scenario I would look at is when there's an actual true fight happening, because again, if I, if I'm holding my dog's leash tight, it's terribly unfair for them because they can't defend themselves and they can't, uh, it can make things escalate again because of that. The reason I mentioned before the restriction of flight option. So, um, and I also want to be able to deal with the dog fight. And in some scenarios, you're able to use the leash to pull your dog away if they're attacking the other dog. So sometimes you have that, you have a puppy come running up to your dog. Hello, I'm a puppy. Say hello to me. And your dog's like, I don't like puppies and I'm going to go after you. So you can easily pull your dog away using the leash. Um, but on the other hand, you may want to drop the leash so you can deal with the other dog. Uh, so you're the other dogs attacking your dog. So, uh, sometimes when you have a dog fight, you do need to drop the leashes so you can actually use some other techniques. Uh, for instance, the spray shield or, um, an air horn or other tool that you might be carrying to break up a dog fight. Sometimes it is a good idea to drop the leash. So those are kind of the two scenarios I can see. I would be really careful about doing it in a lot of other contexts because we don't want just to lose our dog or our dog to actually, uh, escalate things if they charge back at the other dogs. Sometimes the leash is a good, uh, way to control our own dogs. Um, so it's, again, it depends question. Right, right. So to, to kind of round things out, um, my last question for folks these days is just what's something that you've learned or been, you know, reminded of recently when it comes to dog training? Here's an interesting thing. I was, um, I was in New York city yesterday, actually, uh, with, uh, Dr. Kathy Murphy and she's a neuroscientist. She's also a vet and she got bored and got an anesthesiology degree too, I think. But she's got, uh, she was, she was really fascinating. So it was kind of, you know, as somebody that focuses on applied behavior analysis, uh, or modifying aggressive behaviors in dogs, you know, we kind of look at the outside. We look at observable behaviors. We look at antecedents, behaviors, and consequences. And, um, we also factor in, of course, what's what we call setting events or distant antecedents that are factors that make it more likely for a dog to exhibit a certain behavior.

Uh, but she really got into fascinating stuff about the brain and how, uh, you know, how things work on the inside and how much it can affect arousal or stress, uh, sort of the fuels for aggressive behavior, um, or fear and how much, you know, for instance, certain scenarios can have such an, uh, imprinting impact. And I'm, I'm paraphrasing there. So if Kathy's listening, I'm sorry for not getting quite the words she was using. She, she really does make things very simple to understand, but even then I have a tough time grasping it sometimes. But, you know, as far as the, the way fear can imprint at a certain stage, uh, from a traumatic event and then certain things can latch onto that. So, uh, you know, dog is out walking, they get attacked by the dog and they just happen to be standing next to, um, you know, a stop sign or a mailbox or a certain bush or, or a certain person. And then that becomes part of that picture. So then the next time they see a stop sign or a certain bush or a certain person, they're like, no way am I going near that because that's part of the package that I experienced before. So you get that conditioning aspect, but it's really interesting when you look at it from a neural perspective, just how much dogs are affected by certain events. And if you look at the aggression, of course, the aggression context that I work with, it really does, um, uh, play out in my mind as far as having such an effect in so many cases. Um, so it's, uh, it's, it was, it was very interesting. So that's kind of like where I'm, what I was been looking at more and more, some sort of the internal, and then I think, um, it's, I think that's one of going to be one of my topics at the aggression and dogs conference is, um, speaking about the many different lenses we look at through behavior. So, you know, again, we have the applied behavior analysis way of looking things. Uh, then you have the medical model. So we'll have, you know, of course, a veterinary behavior speaking from that angle. You have the ethology lens. Uh, so Kim Brophy, you'll be there talking about, um, the, the, uh, so ethological way of looking at behavior. I will have Kathy speaking there on the neuroscience side of things. I think it's really fascinating because now we're getting all of these different views into, uh, dog training, which is really great. You know, there's other views, of course, a cognitive way of looking at behavior. So, uh, and then Laura Donaldson will be talking about that. So there's lots of different views and ways of looking at behavior.

And I think it's so important for trainers to say, okay, I'm not just going to get stuck in my one lens because I might not be able to see it through the other lenses. Or I might, you know, you get, sometimes we, I find that happening. We get stuck in like the lens that we might be looking through and we're not seeing it from other ways and learning from other ways. So it can be fascinating. Denise, Denise will be speaking there too. Uh, she's coming up through, through her own lens of, of course, the sports dog world. And, and, uh, when dogs are actually have having fun biting people, uh, from her previous protection sports, uh, experience. So yeah, it's, that's, uh, that's what I've been focusing on, or at least for the last few days, I've been really, uh, just, you know, kind of exploring other ways of looking at behavior, not just the, the one I'm so used to. Mm-hmm. Um, so for folks who want to, who want a little more information on some of the things we've talked about, so the muzzle up project, um, the conference you mentioned, uh, you in general, do you, do you want to just kind of list off where people can go to, to learn more? Sure. Um, I, I made it really easy for people to remember and I bought the aggressive dog.com website name and I just launched my new website, aggressive dog.com. Um, of course I also have the Facebook page, um, again, named aggressive dog. Uh, I think it's hash, uh, the at, how do you search up Facebook groups? These are Facebook pages is at aggression and dogs. I think that's, um, how it, you can easily find it, but I think if you just search aggressive dog, it should come right up. Um, of course the muzzle up project, we have the muzzle up pro so for the Facebook pages, the muzzle up project, and then for Instagram, it's muzzle up project, um, without the word the, in the beginning and, um, what else? So yeah, that most of the stuff is easily found through aggressive dog.com. I have all my courses, seminars, webinars, uh, the master course and everything is all listed there. Kind of just funneled into one ways people can find all this stuff. Awesome. And, uh, you'll have to let me know when the website launches so we can, uh, push out the new muzzle up project, uh, site. Yeah. Yeah. Probably in a couple of weeks, hopefully in a couple of weeks. Well, I'll look forward to seeing what you guys come up with. Yeah. It's going to be fun. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Mike. This has been great. My pleasure. Thank you. And we'll be back next week with Janice Gunn to talk about being a crossover trainer and

competing at the highest levels of competitive obedience. Don't miss it. If you haven't already subscribed to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Line. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. We'll see you soon.