E442: 페트라 포드(Petra Ford) - 각성도 이야기 & 잭팟 사용하기

then too aroused then it's hard to concentrate literally right they're just um they're hyper alert they're twitchy there's chemicals pouring into their brain and body and it's very hard for them to concentrate if i like tug with my dog and immediately ask them to do behaviors there's a good chance they're going to make some mistakes or they're going to vocalize because they're just not in that optimal state um so i like to think of it like a thermostat so if my dog's optimal temperature for work and focus is 60 to 65 or if you're zayna 60 to 61 because she has a tiny little window um then if her arousal is too high i need to bring it down right and if her arousal is too low i need to bring it up so that i have it in that perfect little window how do we distinguish between i mean you're talking about you do need some right they need to wake up and kind of be alert and stuff so how do we distinguish between like functional arousal like that you know the excitement that helps us get good performance and the dysregulated stuff that gets in the way what does that look like the differences yeah so i think the most important skill that people struggle with is having good observation skills right so observing their dog and saying okay when my dog is in an optimal state to perform what does that literally look like like what does my dog look like right so um when zayna is over aroused her eyes look like they're gonna pop out of her head literally and they get um really dilated and they literally like bug out right um her whole body's tense her tail's standing at attention she's almost she's like vibrating and for sure she's gonna get vocal if she's not aroused enough she'll uh my dogs are such good communicators it's so funny she'll like start stretching she'll hesitate if i give her a cue she might even go she might even go wrong to me like hang on a minute i'm not ready or my dogs will um shake they'll yawn um zesty will scratch she'll look like he's scratching he's not he's like hold on i'm not ready um zeal would sneeze he would sneeze and sneeze and sneeze and zayna will do that as well if she's not ready to work she'll be like hold on a minute and she'll sneeze and sneeze and sneeze and when she stops sneezing she's dialed in um it's also how they respond to cues right so if i give ask them for some tricks or give them ask for some simple behaviors if they're slow to respond then they're usually not quite aroused enough right they're still they're not dialed in if they're throwing stuff at me like if i say spin and they're like twist spin bounce

and they you know vocalize zayna um then they're too aroused right so i want my dogs to be attentive respond to my cues promptly um their movement is brisk but it's um accurate right and they're not throwing things at me if there's if it's just starts to get very chaotic they're too aroused if it's kind of slow and sluggish they're typically under aroused and like i said a big part of that is just observing your dog right like what happens before what happens after how are they responding and what does that all look like um because it will look different for different dogs what role does like anticipation play in all this so um you know especially somewhere like a trial maybe knows what's coming or like you drive to a new place to train and the dog kind of knows you're going to be there to train right like that anticipation how does that impact arousal you know at trial time or even just in training so i think um arousal that whether their arousal goes maybe a little bit low because they're a little bit worried or concerned or because they're struggling a little bit because the environment's challenging and if their attention's a little split a lot of times that'll look like under arousal and it's just the dogs kind of like oh you know they're slower because they're trying to process your information while they're distracting things happening right um so i think that's all kind of established in training and part of training should be going to different locations right so my dogs learn in training um in the past back in the day before i understood arousal the answer to everything was tug more so our dogs were chronically over aroused so they associated training with over arousal uh and then they if i train them in different locations it was always like get there tug tug tug till my dog was over generalized so they would after a while kick into over arousal in all those scenarios right because that's what i created i taught that um so now i'm always from puppyhood on tweaking my dog's arousal in training so that it's in the middle so if my dog's a little low i'm gonna do things to bring the arousal up tug play treat tosses whatever that means for that particular dog right then if my dog's arousal goes a little too high let's say just um my dog did something and i'm like yes and i'm like wow that was brilliant and we tug or with zesty like he gets easily excited so if i just go yes and i go wow that was amazing and i give him a cookie he's already um his arousal spiking and then i immediately go okay before we

continue on let me bring that back down and let's put you in the middle so now my dogs will almost start to put themselves in the middle so therefore when i go and i start training them in different places i'm doing the same thing i'm trying to keep their arousal in the middle all the time and so my dogs will start putting themselves there right um so they're in essence doing what i have trained them to do right um so they're not they're putting themselves they tend to try to put themselves in the middle um like one time i was this was so fascinating like i was at in a store um that i had trained many times and um i was doing something that was hard for him and so i was like well let me help him by bringing his arousal up right so i would do it i would say okay we're doing signals and then i go yes and i'm like here here's your tug let's tug and he looked at me and he's like no no tug and i'm like you don't want your tug that's weird and i'm like come on let's tug he's like no no tug and i'm like why won't he tug so i'm like all right here's a cookie but he loves to tug and at some point i realized oh he's like no no no no no don't try and raise my arousal because i need to think really hard this is hard for me and i cannot be in a highly aroused state because i can't concentrate well when i'm there so just give me my cookie and let me you know work through this and i don't need my tug um so my other dog way back in the day my dogs would have been like tug tug but they also struggled more right i think he would have had a really hard time doing signals and now he's more comfortable he's more confident he doesn't need to think as hard he understands the behavior he's done it many many times in many different environments so now when he does that behavior in a store i can say mark and say here's your tug and he'll be like thank you let me tug and he can do that um so it's really at the end of the day they're going to do what we put themselves more and more in the state that we put them in um so if you go somewhere and your dog throws themselves into high arousal it's more than likely because you are purposefully or inadvertently creating that um in training interesting uh so speaking of kind of managing arousal you know how do you try to keep it at kind of that optimal level you know either in training or even on a trial day right like how do you what do you assist in versus what is just kind of you're talking about kind of the carryover from training for the dog kind of learning to do it themselves where are you at now i guess in terms

of that do you mostly think your dogs kind of manage it themselves do you still do things to bring them up or bring them down on trial days like what does that look like no i still manipulate it constantly like i i help them right so they'll um sir it they don't tend to fluctuate too well zayna will tend to throw herself a little bit too high that's her tendency so if anything i'm constantly reminding her to bring it down but i'll be in the ring and i'll you know and there will be certain moments where all of a sudden she gets nervous and i can see it in her face and she starts to go down and in that moment i'll immediately say or you know give her a cue or do something that i've taught her that means it's okay bring yourself up a little bit and she'll go oh okay and boom she you know so yes i and i am constantly reminding her in between at the beginning of exercises i'm like okay calm down we're gonna do this next and she's like okay so i am still constantly giving them information and helping them you know manipulate it for zest i don't typically have to do as much just because he tends to you know be better at um he just has a little better impulse control um he just tends to be more comfortable in the middle than she is um but i am constantly helping them because being in the ring is very dynamic right like one minute like some things are constantly happening in the environment things are constantly happening with the judge where there's a little more pressure a little less pressure a little more distraction something unusual happens um there's an exercise maybe the dog finds a little more exciting a little less exciting um so i feel like it's my job like i'm steering the theoretically right i'm steering the ship like i'm in charge and i'm the one that um knows what's happening so i'm there to support my dog so i am constantly basically in the ring i tell people all i do is read and react moment by moment by moment so i'm looking at my dog i'm reading my dog where are you right now are you good i'm a little worried okay i'm gonna help you i'm gonna bring you up i'm getting i'm getting a little excited i'm gonna help you i'm gonna bring you down a little bit so that i'm doing that i'm a little worried it's okay buddy i've got you you're good okay thanks mom so um that's what it's literally but it's also literally what i do in training right as um i'm very present and moment by moment by moment i'm reading my dog where are you right now and i'm reacting to that and i'm helping them um and i'm supporting them

and so i create this habit and this communication system in training whether it's in my yard whether it's um you know at a store in a park or at a trial and um that that communication is happening constantly yeah so i want to shift gears a little bit and talk about um the jackpot piece of the conversation we'll kind of bring them together in a second but um i think a lot of trainers talk about jackpots right they talk about jackpot reinforcement but for you you know what is it how do you describe it kind of at its core beyond just you know a big reward i think it's most people kind of think it think of it yeah so when i when it comes to any type of reward i always say that there should be a thoughtful purpose behind it right like why am i doing this right now and what it what am i trying to achieve with it so for me a jackpot is something that's very very very high value for this dog and that again can vary you know for some dogs it could be a toy for other dogs so for zayna it's her meal that's her highest value reinforcer now that is also going to spike arousal now for a lower arousal dog that might be a good thing right it's going to put them in an optimal state in zayna's case it's a catch-22 she needs the jackpot for a lot of her work because of who she is right she is working she is not working for me she does not care if i'm happy or not that's who she is and that's fair right she is working for her reinforcer so if the work is very hard her definition of hard right then it needs to be worth her while and um very high-end precision behaviors especially longer chains it is not worth her while unless her food is on the table right which also means she's in a very high state of arousal and that's why i said her window is very tiny right like um it's like very challenging and it's oh it's on me to keep her from going over the cliff um but it's the only way i can really get her to do the work that i would like her to do because otherwise she's just like it's not worth it um but that's her so um for other dogs you know it's not quite as challenging so there are a lot of reasons i would use a jackpot but again i'm using it for a very specific reason so in her case i'm using it um so that she can do long chains and she can do them very accurately right because she can do long chains for a for regular cookies but they're not going to be accurate because it's just not worth it for her um for other uh like for zesty he really cares about being right and that's very important to him and he worries so to make him confident if i give him

something challenging to do which i think is important to build confidence and resilience um and then he it's challenging and he's like oh and then he does it then he put in a lot of effort there so i want to give him a reward that equals that effort right so he's giving me an enormous amount of effort i'm not just giving him a cookie i am gonna say to him wow that was amazing i am so proud of you and i'm gonna build up his ego and i'm gonna give him a very high value reinforcer valuable to him um so that he's like oh wow like that was really worth the effort because i think that's fair um i will also i will for sure use a jackpot when i'm teaching my dogs how to put together longer chains again they're doing a large number of complex behaviors for no reinforcement right until the very end and so when they've given me that much effort for sure i'm giving them a very high value reinforcer because i just feel like that's fair you just gave me huge effort well i'm giving you something that's worth that right here you go you're getting something that's very valuable to you um so i use it for a number of different things but i'm always using it um mindfully and for a purpose i'm not just randomly or all the time or oh just because you're you know really cute or because i'm in a good mood today like i'm gonna throw this big thing at you um there's a purpose and there's a reason why i'm doing it so you went into this a little bit when you're talking there about zayna but you're generally speaking how does a jackpot tend to affect arousal it sounds like it usually spikes it and maybe usually yes it will bring it up so for um dogs that are not as motivated like i think it's a great way to increase their motivation right um because it will increase their arousal and their buy-in into the whole thing like oh okay this is worth it for me and oh i'll give you more effort because you're offering me something that's really valuable that's worth the effort for me right i mean it's no different than when i try to hire kids to do my years ago i was like i i had i was trying to hire kids to do my lawn and they're like well how much are you paying well what do i have to do right they're deciding if it's worth it or not and if you don't have a dog that's like a zesty that's like i'm gonna work just for the sake of working which you know those dogs are not that common they're bred that way that's not a typical dog right and typical dog is going to be like well why why am i doing this like we would like to think they're just doing it because they love us and because we love them and but that's not

reality right we don't work for free right so why should they so it has to be worth it for them so yeah it will bring their arousal up so that's really good for a lot of dogs that maybe aren't inherently super motivated um it does raise arousal um so in some cases now you have to deal with fallout and you have to decide is it worth it for me to do this or not and but you know in like in zayna's case yes there was a lot of fallout it got it got and it can at times still get really messy like she'll typical zayna right okay zayna let's do signals and she gets to the sit signal and then she comes she decides on her own she's like yeah yeah yeah i know what's next she comes flying in um fronts all on her own jumps into finish bites my arm looks at the food looks at me and goes get me my dish now and i'm like okay you just skipped like three steps that's not how this works right yeah so but i work through that and i was and i was able to explain to her okay that's i get it i know you know how to get to the end but you have to wait for me so let's do this again and she understands now i was able to teach her that anticipation does not get you to the reinforcer right um same with vocalization she'll she loves to because that's who she is in life she loves to yell at me and give her opinion all the time so in training she'll say rah like hurry up and give me my food and i'll be like no no no you have to wait that's not part of the sequence so she was able to learn all that and she absolutely understands it and she absolutely understands that the path to the reinforcers to do it a certain way um so i that can be taught right you just have to be patient and you have to be willing to work through that in her case for me it was worth the effort to do that um i do it with all my dogs with some dogs it takes a little more work than with others because like i said i do like to use the jackpot for sure for chaining if for nothing else um so i do have to work through anticipation and i do have to work through vocalization um uh with some dogs that's a challenge with other dogs it's not that hard it's relatively easy um but yes it does spike arousal and um various challenges depending on how much it spikes it you know i think we talk about i i also i'm offering a webinar workshop later in the month on raising arousal because i feel like there's so much talk about arousal as a thing where dogs are over aroused and i feel like is that really the majority of dogs because my guess is that if we really looked at the majority of dogs there's probably way more dogs that are on the lower

end of arousal than on the high end so it would be an interesting thing to like ask in the fenzy alumni group or something and just kind of see what how students reply about their own dogs you know because my guess is there's going to be way more that are under aroused maybe it appears like there's more that are over because i think that for a very long time there weren't many resources on how to manage that if you had a dog that tended towards over arousal it was like ah i'm i'm stuck i don't know how to deal with this right um but my guess is that there are probably more dogs that are on the lower end of arousal so a jackpot will raise their arousal and that won't even be a problem right it'll be just net benefit all around with very little fallout from that um but yeah you're right that will be an interesting um question on the alumni page yeah so you're talking about this kind of as part of the last answer but you know how do you decide when a moment deserves a jackpot versus a standard reinforcement how do you make that choice when creating your plan i think really it comes down to um effort not i shouldn't say effort is um if my dog does a simple behavior right like um uh that they know really well i'm just going to give them a cookie right or some behaviors you're not going to get anything because at this point it's just a habit it's easy for them it's um not that hard um i think it's if something is really hard or challenging then they're going to get a higher value reinforcer may not be a jackpot may just be higher value right on the scale of the hierarchy if something's really hard then that's where they're more than they're likely to get a jackpot it would it has to be challenging so again the reward should equal effort right how hard is this right you shouldn't get paid a bonus if you're just doing the bare minimum of work that's not how bonuses work for us typically right um bonuses are you put in extra effort you put in extra work um i appreciate that here i'm going to give you a bonus so that's sort of how i look at it right um my dog just gave me super huge effort pushed through did something really hard um did something oh that was a uh long sustained effort yeah i'm gonna say hey you know what here i'm gonna give you this huge jackpot and then my dogs go oh okay um so zaina will literally give me an entire class which is in competition obedience like a full utility class full obedience class like seven to nine minutes of complex behaviors that are typically not really inherently self-reinforcing and super challenging

environments where there's tons of distractions and a lot of pressure she'll give me a whole class of effort because she knows at the end of that she'll get her you know jackpot so that's pretty powerful um and i feel like my dogs should get a huge reward for putting in that much effort right like i think it's so fair i know everybody doesn't do that but i do fair enough so we're talking about these because you have two workshops this month you have harnessing high arousal for optimal focus that's the conversation about arousal and jackpot reinforcement a powerful training tool so do you want to just talk a little more about kind of what's in each workshop and maybe who might want to sign up for which yeah so for the harnessing high arousal i really talk about it not just in the exact like look of addressing it from all angles right so i was really fortunate that back in the day when i had my first super high drive field lab um that i was taught you know you have to manage this in life and you have to manage this when you're moving from the car to where you're training and you have to manage it um during reinforcement and after reinforcement and while you're training so i look at it from like the whole gamut of all the different areas where you need to um work on managing this high arousal so that your dog um is in optimal arousal um is in optimal arousal because if you just um if you're trying to just do it in training and then your dog's like in high arousal overly arousal in life and in different aspects that's gonna absolutely spill into your training so we look at you know kind of everything um in that workshop so that you can address high arousal and manage it from kind of a whole bunch of different um come at it from a bunch of different aspects and then the jackpot i kind of go through all the different areas where i use it where you could potentially use it all the reasons you could use it um again a bunch of those that i mentioned uh in this podcast and then i look at all the potential fallout and how you can address it so that it's not a problem right um your dog vocalizes okay it's okay we can explain to the dog not to do that right and here are all the different ways you can do it um your dog's anticipating throwing a bunch of behaviors at you okay no problem like this is here are a bunch of different ways that we can address this and handle it and manage it so that your dog can understand it and that you can use um the jackpot even if your dog tends to get a little bit over aroused or over excited um yeah um any final thoughts or maybe key

points you kind of want to leave folks with final thoughts so i work on both of these things um with my dogs when they're really young so this way it's kind of incorporated into their training and those skills are things we work on and maintain throughout their career so you can start it when a dog is really young um but you can also introduce it later like to be honest when zayna was younger i introduced the jackpot and it went it was such an absolute mess that i was like oh my gosh like i can't i can't even deal with this like it's such a disaster like she's screaming she's like going off the rails i'm not even gonna use like a jackpot and then in hindsight i should have just worked through it because i spent years trying to figure out you know what's the right recipe to get her invested to get and way down the road i realized oh the answer is the jackpot and i spent all these years like because i bailed on it um so i really didn't teach it to her until way later and um it was okay because i took my time i worked through it and um it ended up being a very valuable tool so i think whether you use whether you start these things early or late um they can still be beneficial awesome that's a great thought to kind of end things on so that folks you know kind of know that you can you know whether you've got a puppy or whether you've got your you know advanced training dog it's worth kind of starting jumping in and working on this stuff yeah um awesome all right well thank you so much for coming on the podcast petra thanks for having me as always absolutely and thanks to all of our listeners for tuning in we will be back next week this time with kim plermo to talk about ace animal-centered education and free work if you haven't already subscribe to the podcast in itunes or the podcast app of your choice to bring next episode automatically download to your phone as soon as it becomes available today's show is brought to you by the fenzy dog sports academy special thanks to denise fenzy for supporting this podcast music provided royalty free by bensound.com the track featured here is called buddy audio editing provided by chris lang thanks again for tuning in happy training you you you