The Use and the Bans of “Electric Shock Collars”

[00:00] My name is Sophie Verlinde and today we are talking with Michael M. Bart Bellon, the owners of Martin System. And we would like to ask them to comment on an important topic today. So that means England has banned the use of remote electric shock collars after a 10-year campaign. And this new law will start in February 2024. [00:31] The Kennel Club, which led the campaign, has welcomed the news as an historic moment for animal welfare. Michael and Bart, what is your opinion about this? Well, it's a very short question with a very, very long answer. [00:58] So what are Michael and Bart thinking about it and what are Michael and Bart doing about it in the situation they are? Let's go back a little bit to history because around 2004 and a little bit before, the same situation was happening in France. [01:28] Just in France. And there also a new load proposal came up and then there was a big panic in the world of the dog trainers, dog owners, users of e-collars, manufacturers of e-collars and so on and so on. [01:55] If you allow us, we will go a little bit back to those days when the ECMA Association was founded. ECMA stands for e-collar manufacturer association. And that association was founded in 2004 to try to make a quality brand for e-collars to be the only e-collars accepted in that new climate that was created in France. [02:35] Bringing competitors together around the negotiation table is not easy. In those days, and I can still name the people, the companies that were the founders of ECMA. ECMA, ENO-TECH, PETSAFE, DOCTRA, DT Systems, PAC, Canicom and Martin Systems were the e-collar brands that wanted to do something. [03:15] And then my memory is well, the first big meeting was at the IWA show, the IWA Nuremberg, where all the people that normally compete to each other were sitting around a negotiation table. And it was a very strange feeling. I remember that like yesterday because I was sitting there as an employee of ENO-TECH. [03:42] And very fast, we came to the conclusion, whoa, if we found an association, we need a website, we need an address, we need a telephone number, we need somebody that hosts our legal union. [04:08] The legal union, yeah. Lucky us, the old owner of Martin System, Charles Martin, did hunt together with a certain Yves Lecoq, that was the president of La Fasse. And La Fasse was, and still is, the European Hunting Association. And the legal seat of that association was in Brussels.

[04:34] And Yves Lecoq was the president of La Fasse. And due to his connections with Charles, Charles could make sure that, in the beginning, ECMA could have their legal seats, their phone number, their website, the whole thing, at the headquarters of La Fasse. And then, very fast, all the players did realize, whoa, sitting together and speaking is not enough. [05:04] We need, we need, we need money. And it's always the same thing, when money is needed. Not everybody is ready to put money in the pot, and not everybody has money to put in the pot. So, in those days, the two biggest players were certainly InnoTech and PetSafe, which is radio systems. [05:31] So, they were the biggest money donators. Later, they find the rule that Mr. Martin, due to the fact that he did bring the organization at La Fasse, could have what they call a free ticket, which is not good neither, to be member of ECMA. And then, there were a lot of money deals going on. [05:56] But very fast, the Americans did pay what they call power play. We give money, and in America, they are used to give money as donations, and it's always tax deductible. So, the big companies like to give, to deduct it from the taxes. So, all the little companies were immediately boom, boom, boom, at the site. And that means that, yes, you can sit, be beautiful, and shut your mouth. [06:24] That was a little bit the thing going on there. Money talks. And then, around 2006, radio systems did purchase InnoTech. And there, I was. And I was one of the only guys that was taken over by the new company, the new mother company, radio systems. [06:49] And I was part of radio systems, sitting also in that ECMA Association. and what you must understand is it is not easy to bring competitors together around the table and to find agreements around very specific topics which at the end must become the quality logo [07:15] to convince governments to accept the legality the legality and the brands with the ECMA logo as being the unique brand that can be used in despite of the e-collar maybe prohibition when I understood it well there are three different types of electric colors yes that's a very good question the e-collar family is divided into three children [07:47] the first is the anti-bark which is aversive stim aversive training the second is the in-ground fencing which again is aversive stim and the third one is the remote control but now comes in those 2004 years which is nearly 20 years ago

[08:15] in France the green parties did find a low decret in which was written that it is forbidden during the hunt to use electronic aids that low text was more stipulating for the walkie-talkies where hunters could speak with the shooters there is a wild boar coming there there is a deer coming there [08:42] so they did find it too easy to hunt so they did not like that and that's why in the law was written it is prohibited to use electronic aids but the green parties that did read that later said aha now we have a stick to beat on the ass and they did use that stick to try to stop the e-collar [09:09] during the hunting and generally also and that's why the e-collar brands came together because in those days France was the biggest market for electronic training aids the bark inhibitor, the fencing and the remote control they were in full distribution that means that you could buy it in every store that has pet ingredients [09:40] or every outdoor store or every hunting store now I remember it like yesterday that all the stakeholders that means all the people that are pro e-collar and all the people that are against e-collar we were invited at the Department of Agriculture in France and the Department of Agriculture has the hand on animal welfare [10:07] it's quite the same all over Europe so I remember I went there in those days still for Enotec because it was in the years 2004 and I had a pile of scientific research and everything that could be useful in a debate where you speak against adult people and I was sitting beside the Minister of Agriculture [10:36] and I still hear that person saying to the secretary I'm happy that that person is not there and that person was a certain Thierry Kost I did not know who that was I was part of the most animated adult meeting I ever was in they were throwing dirt back and forth you cannot believe screaming, insulting each other [11:03] and I was sitting there and I was sitting there like the little Flemish guy that understands very well French but I did not open my mouth and I remember it like yesterday five minutes before the end a guy dressed like a movie star came in with the secretary and I said ladies and gentlemen I see that you started already without me my name is Thierry Kost I represent

[11:29] and I'm the lobbyist for the hunters I represent in those days 1,300,000 hunters with a lot of hunting dogs and he said and if you guys are going to change the law that it is not allowed to hunt with e-colors anymore we're going to put the bomb on Paris and we don't buy Royal Canyon anymore we cancel Royal Canyon immediately and then everybody was like [11:56] whoa who is that guy that dares to speak like that and then he pointed to every player in the room that was against the e-colors and he said you in that deal I gave you 5 million you in that deal I gave you so much you in that deal we went to the bar drinking and having fun he knew dirt on everybody and after five minutes speaking he said minister I think that we agree [12:21] that from now you write in the stipulations that the e-colors are allowed thank you bye bye arrivederci and I was there like whoa and there I understood for the first time in my life it is not what you know it is who you know and what you know about them and what you know about them and how many people you represent [12:46] from that day Thierry Coste became also the lobbyist for ECMA because we needed that guy in those days and of course Mr. Coste is still the lobbyist for the hunters in France and he does do a lot of things in agriculture and he is now the lobbyist that still will lobby for the e-colors [13:12] manufacture associations in France of course times did change 20 years ago that style maybe did work we are not sure that it will work this time so we are not part of ECMA so Michael and I we are not part of ECMA because we don't believe in what they do for the moment and we believe that the way [13:38] that they lobby it and maybe they lobby for that in every topic I don't know and if it's like that then we understand why the world goes in the shitter well we also aren't part of it because of the the difference in the power play you get more votes depending on how powerful you are and how much money you can put in it and how much money you can put in it depends on where you're supporting [14:04] so if your biggest product product is anti-barks and fences and not remotes then it's going to get pushed in that direction so and why is Martin System no longer selling anti-bark and invisible fences it's a very good question well Michael and I could purchase Martin System what is it four years ago five years ago

[14:30] five years already and the first thing we did was kill the anti-barks kill the fences and kill all the transmitters that are not finger kick compatible and all our co-workers were like are you guys crazy you kill more than half of our sales well we said and if it didn't have SSE yeah [14:55] well we did kill those products because Michael and I do believe that Martin System has strong patterns one of the strongest patterns is the contact measurement system at switching on the color measures immediately contact or not with the skin and shows you that there is no contact or that there is contact when you have no contact and that happens [15:21] 95% of the cases all the time with all the brands and if you don't know that you don't have contact you increase the level of output until the dog reacts with the overreaction due to bridging electricity and bridging electricity is when there is enough energy to jump over the no contact zone to make [15:46] contact and that is always the output it's or the dog that runs away freezes or you the owner runs away because the dog bites you that's typically so we did stop immediately all the colors that had no contact measurement we did immediately take out of sales all the products that don't have the consistent [16:12] reliable stim what is that again consistent reliable stim is a system that measures non-stop the resistance that always changes on the skin of the animal and adapt the output to that to give the animal the same sensation as before the resistance did change it's a very strong pattern then the chameleon patterns [16:37] that's a mechanical design and by the way people can find all these patterns on our website from Martin Systems in little two minute explanations where we try to explain the patterns visually and we did also stop immediately selling transmitters without finger kick because for Michael and I the finger kick is a [17:03] must in modern training that means that the transmitter is not in your hand the transmitter can be in your pocket that means that when you have a ring around your finger you can press immediately and without motion so it means that timing is much better and you don't go in your pocket and do that unnecessary movement that is a lot of [17:28] times four, five, six seconds too late so that's why we believe in that finger kick very much so Michael and I we did kill all those things to reduce only colors with contact measurement SSE NHT what is NHT well that's a little transformer that always gives the same output and when you change the levels we change

[17:53] the resistance and that's why with a small battery we can juice that color for between five and seven days it's a very very important patent for Michael and me so and Dogify Bart what is that that's another thing Dogify is a free application in which Michael and I and Martin system [18:19] did invest a lot of money so that the user from the Bluetooth colors the B colors we call it can tune the color for their dog like they dog needs it that means that we the factory we cook a dinner for the general consumer but the end consumer can put salt or pepper or sugar as their [18:44] dog needs it so that's what we deliver and where you can play with all those spices what is also new is that Michael and I from April with Martin systems we took the decisions to worldwide deliver products with only vibration tone click and temperature to oblige [19:10] people to go to dogify so they must learn the gear and they must learn the manipulation and if they feel entitled to add stim they can do so and by preference if they do that together with a NAPOPO gold graduate so we try to push people to know their gear inside outside to be [19:35] able to use their gear in what we call reflex response because most people have already problem with the dog and due to that have stress and in addition to that they don't know their gear then you have a double mix of things that don't go so to oblige people to learn their gear we go for only vibration click [20:01] and so on and if they feel entitled they can add stimulation or they can kill stimulation they can do whatever they want with that application so that is the short explanation of dogify okay and you also created a new silver school so that's to reach more people well let's Sophie I understand your question very well continue [20:26] your question please so you you created a new silver school to reach more people to make them aware about the system and about e-colors we must go back a little bit in the history so we hear always what are Michael and Bart doing what is marketing system doing they do nothing they only sell and they take profit that's what we hear so we let [20:52] it calm down a little bit and then Michael and I we learn to answer with facts so it means that over the years and now I speak for myself I started doing seminars in 1992 from 1992 until the day I stopped giving seminars I had more than 1000 seminars on my mileage that's a lot on every

[21:18] seminar minimum an average of 20 people and minimum an average of 20 dogs Michael had a pet training business in Bethesda and she had between 5 and 10 dogs every month in her business so a lot of experience you cannot believe and in Michael's [21:43] case she had to deliver a dog within 21 days listening on cue come here go there heel sit down and go to your place and she had 21 days to perform in style with heart and soul but also on cue and it worked very well now over the years we find [22:09] out that being on seminars you are trick master people come there and you just have to cure the problem without knowing the system and people train dogs in different systems and you only have a few minutes to do the miracle so you become a type of miracle worker instead of a system worker so Michael and I did see that and we did not like that plus we were [22:35] too much in the hands of top sport people that wanted to know the secret to get one point more and please don't tell it to the other competitors that was a little bit the mentality so we said we do not want to be the secret spice of a few ones that's where we drastically increased the price sheathing of the [23:00] seminars and what did we see then instead of diminishing the demand on seminars it did increase again but there were minimum 100 people every time so we did reach more people but we were still a little bit unhappy and we said we we don't reach the people that we need still fixing fixing one thing and not changing a whole philosophy and an [23:25] attitude and in animal welfare so we did feel that unhappiness we did also see that the law from animal welfare that for years is the same 30 years ago it was the same law it is forbidden without valid reason to inflict pain or to make a dog [23:50] suffer so this law is old as the street it is just the implementation or how people understand it today that makes a difference so and we saw the mentality of people changing and that's why Michael and I decided on the top of our success financially to stop with seminars and to [24:16] go for a school a three week school in the beginning where we gave theory and practical training to one student we had six times one student which was very hard for three weeks for three weeks and there again we felt in the booby trap we cannot reach enough people so then we changed

[24:41] and then the first open school in Holland for more than one person was in Holland where we had the school I think two or three times until the school moved due to COVID and due to a lot of factors due to here in Seymour in Missouri where we did the school and always more and [25:06] more people came at one point we had 40 people and there Michael and I said whoa it's out of control and we cannot handle more people in this infrastructure and what you must understand is the location where we are for that school there is a little road in dirt dirt road and imagine that hundred people with [25:32] hundred cars come to that school there is no more street we could not do that so we had to go to another formula so we did create the new silver formula and there Sophie with your help it was in the Bass Pro venue and it still is in the Bass Pro venue in Springfield which by the way was a big success so there [25:57] we reach much more people and we know that the theory is one thing we call it new silver and then people must come to hands-on dogs for some years when we were giving seminars people would say that Napopo is a little bit a politically correct [26:23] system and at first I was a little bit offended by that because we're dog trainers and it's mostly about dogs but then I see that it is a politically correct system because we try to make it so that anybody can watch it and not be upset and follow through and it's acceptable so we [26:49] try to stay where everything is clear and fair and make harmony that's the whole thing with the system then very important to the system is that we speak about all the training system we speak about positive reinforced consequences for doing and consequences for not doing which can [27:14] be very strong in positive training if you use food then we also speak about negative reinforcement consequences for doing consequences for not doing and then we mix the two systems in a win-win deal where we use the advantage of negative reinforcement and the advantage of positive reinforcement in a double advantage system [27:39] so and a lot of trainers do that worldwide but they have no name for it so it is already done by a lot of good people but they do it belly-wise so Michael and I did bring that NAPO post system and of course we knew that people would copy it so we did trademark it and that is not

[28:04] easy so we did trademark it in different continents so everything we do we try to do it so that there is as less copy as possible but to go back to hands-on dogs what Michael and I did see on seminars and in those schools where we were 10 dogs is the strict maximum you can handle 10 dogs [28:29] means in best case 10 people there again you see we don't reach quantity and we must go to quantity because there is a lot of people in the world that are misinformed by the only positive propaganda machine and in the only positive propaganda machine they only speak about [28:55] rewarding dogs they never speak about consequences for not doing and if they have a consequence for not doing it is one second consequence that's a joke that doesn't work but there is big clans tribes in dog training and one of the clans is only positive and they are heard by the politicians because they use what we call seagull [29:20] politics and seagull politics are it's a little group that screams very hard you think there's a whole army and they poop a lot you cannot believe and then they fly away and then the silent majority is there with the damage with the poop and they must clean it up so that's what happens today is that those seagulls those minorities because they are not a [29:45] majority they are a minority but they play it very well and they use what they call seagull politics to offend the big silent majority and to have results and in Europe it works because in Europe half of the European countries already have a prohibition for the e-collar the pinch collar and so on and so on and the countries because people are not well informed that the [30:10] countries where it always starts is United Kingdom if you look historically all extreme animal welfare always starts in United Kingdom which for the moment is not part of Europe anymore due to Brexit it always starts in Switzerland Switzerland that is a country in Europe but is not part of the EU and Germany [30:36] it always starts in Germany and Germany is part of Europe and it is part of the European community so that's where it always starts historically and they play it very well and they they lobby and they play the little games and this shit started 2004 and in those days the E-Color Manufacture [31:01] Association did solve it by paying a lobbyist and they will still try to pay a lobbyist because now in UK the damage is done why is the damage done because the lobbyists that did lobby this scenario were influenced by ECMA and ECMA is the big big big money givers and they

[31:27] have the most sales in the anti-bark and the fences I know that very well it's about 90% of their income is the aversive tools so and because they are very good in negotiation they did tell the lobbyists to fight for accept slaughtering the remote control and of course the lobby that is against [31:53] the E-Color they must go home with a victory we have a victory and the victory we did stop it all was impossible so they had to accept we accept the remote E-Color as a trophy but write it down this is just the beginning in four or five years from now on the next step will be the anti-bark they're going to kill that also if [32:19] you bend over slowly it comes to an end and what people don't realize is that behind all that animal welfare is a more extreme group which is animal right people and animal right people have one agenda no more domesticated animals point and everything to reach that [32:44] point are little steps and in the little steps they are very good in lobbying the countries and the ministers they are very good in marketing they always show very emotional movies they never show the reality they always take something out of reality and is it emotional yes it is emotional and today it works so that's a little bit what happens [33:09] but what we always try to tell people is dog world for the moment is very divided and you must look to the movie from Mel Gibson Mel Gibson has a movie Braveheart and in that movie the clans are fighting the king of England and Mel Gibson is trying to bring the clans together and the clans [33:34] always say yes yes yes we stay on your side and yes yes yes we stay at your side and the day they are on the battlefield they move to the other side of the road where the king of England with money was convincing one or two or three clan members to stay at his side that's a little bit what happens in dog world there is different clans and the clan that is winning for the moment [33:59] is positive only and I know why because I was a lot of times on the negotiation tables where the army was invited the police was invited special forces were invited dog training federations were invited and they all sit around the negotiation table and then the minister or the person that must do the negotiations ask those parties

[34:24] do you guys need the e-collar or no we never use it and I was sitting there and I said well but I should reveal all the invoices from you guys because our company did sell 30 40 50 e-collars to you don't tell us that you should just tag them in a shelf so it means that all the people are having butter on their head the federations because they applaud [34:50] for fantastic work but they don't want to know how this fantastic work is done hey and a lot of people use the e-collar very well and a lot of people use the pinch collar very well and the choke collar very well and yes there is brutal people that don't use it very well but those brutal people they don't need the e-collar to be brutal they will do it with their foot they will do it [35:16] with a baseball bat they will do it with hot water 100% so and part of the reason why wanting to get more people get more people and touch more people and have more people educated is because right now there's a lot of people who don't really they know about positive only but they don't know if you ask the regular Joe Bob do you know what balance training is [35:41] they probably don't even know do you know what negative reinforcement is even a lot of trainers don't know what negative reinforcement is or they will say yeah that's very punishing yeah that's that's very bad so that's the thing is once you get education of the full quadrants that trainers have customers and they hit more and more people than the [36:06] the as we get to more and more of a majority of people who know and who can stand up and say yes I use those tools they're humane they make harmony what's the problem and Michael and I know exactly we need to reach more people to spread the news of the full quadrant and the full quadrant is every system in full option [36:33] that's what people must understand and we believe in licensing because if you license people you oblige them to come and you oblige them to stay awake and you oblige them to learn so we believe in licensing it's like in Germany I remember more than 20 years ago the German hunting was nearly dead so nearly dead means [36:58] no new hunters were coming and so on and so on and in those days the green parties were trying to aha we're gonna give the hunting world the final neck shot by introducing a very complicated hunting license to once and forever stop the hunting in Germany now 20 years later

[37:23] what do we see that instead of the neck shot it was the best system to activate a new mentality and German hunting is booming like never before Michael and I we believe in licensing licensing is the only system out of this impasse but licensing in the full quadrant of course licensing in the full quadrant [37:49] and if people want to train in positive only that's fine yeah we are very tolerant but if you only train in positive you must be able to do responsible dog ownership so that means that if you cut your dog loose you must be able to make him come immediately no matter what no matter what and you can't and that's always the problem and people that only use negative reinforcement at too high levels [38:14] they must learn to make their dog look better look more happy so it is both sides that have a little bit bother on the head and both sides must accept each other that's very very important now reach that goal because Michael and I we can sell the company we can sell marketing system and we have enough to become old we don't do that [38:40] because we feel that we did not reach our goals and we are at the age that we can still put a little bit pressure on the whole world and what do we do we're going to invest in a free application gaming where people will for free use and play a game positive reinforcement and in that positive reinforcement [39:06] there will be luring and there will be shaping and then at the end there will be a score and when you do a little I should say a few times above 95% the system will tell you good now you're ready to go for another training system negative reinforcement and there again in a gaming because Michael and I we believe in playing gaming gaming is the way to [39:31] learn things with heart and soul so in that gaming world people will be trained in negative reinforcement and there also we will show the old nepopo which is with pressure and release and with the new nepopo where the animal must find his advantage with the hunt with the search searching the [39:56] accident and there if people do that game very well then the system will send them to the combined game nepopo game where you bring the two of best world together and if there again you do very well the system will tell you hey you're ready in the virtual world you're ready for a real dog but be careful a real dog has feelings and you must read your dog and we advise

[40:22] you to go to a certified in our case nepopo gold trainer and because you did so well you have a 10% discount for example on the online course that will come soon because Michael and I we know exactly we don't reach enough people with 100 people we're gonna go worldwide with the online how you call it online e-color [40:47] the online new silver school online and it will be in the language of all the people wherever their country is so that we have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of new people a month that want to know about dog training and who learn about the full quadrants so the people who know about the full quadrants will be in the huge majority [41:13] and keep tools and dogs safe all kinds of dogs dogs that can't be trained in positive only we are sick and tired to be asked by governments hey come we have a meeting about the e-color or about dog training and then you sit there and it's like you must speak to a baby what dog training is but the baby cannot speak so that's a little bit [41:38] what happens in those meetings you have smart people but they don't want to learn they just are there to listen where's the majority so we are convinced that politicians always go for the majority they want to make the majority happy that's what happens and then for example what happens now in France in France a few months ago the Green Party again [42:03] always comes from the Green Parties the Green Party again in the Assemblée General which is the place where they make the new laws they propose the new laws there was a lady a certain Corinne that said well I propose that we're going to ban the e-collar the pinch collar and the chalk collar the only exception is the French army because they [42:29] used the NAPORPORT training system five minutes after that speech we receive a telephone from a person that said Michael Bart what did that cost for that result and say what what cost we were like huh so we never pay people we train people we teach people but it's naive to think that all dogs can be trained with positive only that's very [42:54] naive it is a fact that we did work for the French army and that we did tell the responsibles which are the big generals and the colonels that when the army is on army duty and when an army dog bites the enemy the soldier must ASAP be able to stop that biting action because

[43:19] animal welfare law says it is forbidden without valid reason the valid reason to inflict pain is when a dog bites a human being even your enemy even a scumbag you must stop that biting ! action ASAP pain in the case of the army the soldier that [43:44] has his dog biting the soldier of the enemy that soldier must be able to stop the biting action immediately because in the army there is another law that overrules animal welfare and that is the Geneva convention so and the Geneva convention says that you must have respect for your enemy and you must respect your enemy like your brother so and [44:09] there the big responsible of the French army did understand of course that you can train 1 million pictures what you cannot train is the reality and the reality is that when a dog bites even and in despite the fact that he outs always on a training suit it does not mean that he will out in [44:35] reality and probably will out in three times not today not tomorrow never that means that you must implement a tactile feeling even pain if needed to make that dog out so otherwise the general must go on the court from Geneva to explain why his soldiers don't have the gear to make the dogs out but that's a very [45:00] strong precedent and that's why we try to explain people that precedent because it's written it's about licensing and now the battle of Waterloo is played in France if in France the Senate because now that whole new law proposal must be or by the Senate [45:25] the Senate in France is what we call centrum right and centrum right normally always kills the ideas of the left side normally but here they are prepared to do negotiations we have the same in Germany 25 years ago the same situation in Germany and I remember it like yesterday the last moment the centrum right parties did make a deal with the left [45:50] about atomic centrals and highways and for that they gave animal welfare to the green parties so there will be a very strong politic game played now in France and they're going to use animal welfare as a please get it if we get from you something else we think [46:16] that the outcome will be a type of licensing a type will it be what Michael and I do NEPO licensing with silver and gold we don't know but it will be a type of licensing and there will be a type of protocol on how an e-collar must look like 100% they call that the parameters on the gear which is a good topic by the way okay

[46:41] so you are convinced that there is still a future for the e-collars oh yeah well and that's a fact the more it is not allowed we see our sales we cannot follow sales that's the reality of marketing systems we don't know for our competitors but we cannot follow sales of course if you look to price sheeting our [47:06] brand marketing system is by far the most expensive brands we never look to price sheeting of other companies we look to how much it costs to make a safe product and we add necessary markups to be sure that we stay in business that's a necessary markup to give warranty to stay in business to make new [47:31] stuff so if you look like most companies only bring what we call the old cow in a new cover lipstick on a pig a little bit like that and they go lower and lower in price sheeting because the end consumer wants cheaper and cheaper and cheaper product and pushes the big factories to do that that means that the only research [47:57] and development is in making production cheaper but I have to say when I had my business in Bethesda and I offered a wide range of callers and I paid end consumer price for all of them but when I explained everything they do people don't understand that there's a big difference in callers and what they can do and for people [48:23] it's electricity yes that's it right so but when they're educated and you tell them profit lose what can it what can it not they understand yeah then it's a it's a it's a easy decision the problem is they buy it and they start pushing us so it's of course of course that's why Michael and I do believe in a type of system [48:48] where of course Martin's system is producing e-colors by the way Michael and I we have the e-colors the e-colors school the Nepo training school before we were the owners of Martin's system and we adapt all our productions to other school needs we did not do opposite it's not because the production was there that we tell something no no no [49:14] no no we do believe in animal welfare we do believe in products that have a specific specification and we ask our co-workers which are good colleagues to go for that idea and by the way our engineer and our whole staff was there at the big school in Springfield and they were so happy that they never saw a school they never saw what

[49:40] we do and a lot of the things that we tell them that we need they're like kidding and now they understand better yeah so it makes us very happy that they did do that step and that they are full in the in the history that means that because we're the only e-collar company that has a school and two dog trainers are the owners oh we are the only school that has an e-collar brand you can see it like that [50:05] also right because that's what it is and there is no compromise there because Michael and I we can live small we don't need a big huge car we don't need a big huge whatever we live here on Amish farm that we did renovate by working ourselves we have fun at that but I mean that's typically for Michael and I but we do a lot but people don't realize it and what people must [50:31] understand is when we needed them nobody was speaking we did warn the whole world it is coming like we warned the Americans it is coming be ready go for licensing yeah but you know which are now our two new enemies our competitors because they think that we did pay off the legal instances [50:56] which we don't and we hope that all of them stay in business because we need them we need competitors but what is making us mad is that our new enemy is the end consumer the dog trainer that prefers that everything goes in the ditch than to go to licensing and that's a crime so we believe that those people [51:22] that are against should stop and go for another passion because their attitude is the reason why it goes in the ditch hey one day there was a guy that said there is too many accidents on the road let's install a driving license well we have a driving license we still have accidents but much less than in the old days and there was [51:47] a certain day that there was a king in French Charlemagne that said we have too much stupid kids we must oblige them to go to school because stupidity is not born stupidity is not genetics it's learned or not learned and Kaiser Karl Charlemagne did introduce the obligation to go to school so we believe that [52:13] the licensing is the only way out of this impasse but everybody licensing and I remember 20 years ago the license was already on the tables of negotiations and you know what the people that were pro or against they said no no no no licensing because the first license that we need is who is allowed to have a dog that's how they were thinking so we must license

[52:39] first who can have a dog and then we go to the next license and I was thinking my god what am I doing here and everybody just is there to tell their little thing and they don't have a big picture because now what people don't realize about animal welfare and emotions they promote only positive training as the walhalla of dog training that means that and [53:04] that's already busy in the sports since more than 10 years they are breeding dogs with dopamine and dopamine is the happy hormone that is released especially at the hunting behavior it's a happy hormone and those little dogs they are already selected at six weeks old all the little dogs with ears [53:29] up for the breeds with ears up and tail up they are the preferred ones and the others are out selected out ranged it's already gone in the sports since 10 years well we go further so it means that there is a type of genocide starting on dogs that don't have that happy hormone we know that 50% of all the dog population will be genocide if only positive dog training [53:54] is on the agenda hey in the name of animal welfare come on folks wake up it's time to wake up accept that there is people having success with negative reinforcement accept that there is people having success with positive reinforcement but know that every dog has his type of genetics and you [54:20] cannot change that it's not because you want to have a dog that is trainable only positive that you will have a dog that is only trainable by positive that is wishful thinking it does not exist and are the dogs that aren't trainable just by positive do they deserve to die because you will only accept [54:45] positive training that makes no sense tell what happened in Belgium when they stopped allowing dogs to pull the cart years ago and that is in the early 1900s in the early 1900s the poor farmers that had no money for a horse they had one two three or four dogs and those dogs did help pull the cart pull the wheel barrel pull the bicycle and so [55:10] plow and turn the butter yep so they had a function on the farm and then in those days there was a lady that was the president of animal welfare which already did exist and she was married with the minister of agriculture and she did find it very cruel that the dogs had to work hard pulling the cart she did

[55:36] not find it cruel that people had to work hard pulling and pushing the same cart while her dog that was eating chicken bones and was wearing a blanket she had mercy with the hardworking dogs and it's a fact that some dogs when they work hard and they pull hard it creates an image of oh they are suffering what people must understand [56:02] is that farmers will feed their animal because if you want to milk the cow you must feed the cow if you don't feed the cow you cannot milk the cow farmers are the biggest in real animal welfare because they rely on those animals of course we see that here with the Amish people they are very basic with the animals but they are also very hard for themselves and that's why Michael [56:27] and I we like to buy horses from the Amish community they are stable they are not spoiled they are happy with the little corrode and little pets they are not used to all that so it's nice to have those animals now we go back to the lady with the loaves that lady could convince her husband after speaking [56:52] with him at night to stop dogs pulling the cart and the new law came that it was forbidden for working dogs to pull the cart the next day half a million dogs were thrown in the water with a stone around the neck in the name of animal welfare come on and that law is still low and that's why when in Belgium [57:17] you have a dog that pulls on a bicycle that's not allowed and it's for that reason that I did invent years ago the flex pole because a dog on a chain was not allowed and for reasons because some people put the dog on the chain day and night but we have reasons why to back tie a dog now and then and the back tie was a flex pole it's not a chain [57:42] so it was a quite innovative idea and so on but all those things in name of animal welfare it has a backside the backside was half a million dogs thrown in the water and in Belgium there's a nice book about that Patras Nello and Patras Nello and Patras and maybe after this podcast you can find [58:08] that little book and but the same with working dogs like our dog loves to pull the bike and she goes absolutely bananas and loves to pull the bike but it's like runners like a runner's high I mean maybe maybe somebody who has diabetes and can't walk a half a mile is not going to want to run a marathon but some people do like it they a little bit enjoy the suffering

[58:33] when I was a young kid the old people told me in dog selection Bart a working dog must love pulling the bike if they don't like to pull the bike the bike it's not a real working dog that was their philosophy so they selected dogs to love and these are the endorphin dogs they love to suffer a little bit and when they suffer the [58:59] endorphin is released and endorphin is a variant of morphine it takes a little bit of pain away but it also makes fly high and that's why the good working dogs in the old days were all endorphin dogs all of them and that's where it came from pulling the bicycle yesterday we released a little video from Jack running on that treadmill there was [59:24] one comment poor animal she's suffering how do people dare to say that there is no pressure that dog jumps on the treadmill and and the screaming it's a manual treadmill people are doing it she loves it and she likes you must stop her otherwise she dies and that's that endorphin that is released it's crazy [59:50] and we are not there with food we are not there learning with the bike sleeve there is nothing just go the reward is that crazy running and it's worth to spend the whole podcast on that also because that's where the vocalization comes from why is the dog vocalizing and so on and so on people are always saying that you should be tolerant of people who are not like you people who are introverts people who [60:15] are extroverts people who are you know if they're a little bit aggressive if they had a you know if they're shy but with dogs they're not like that it's like makes no sense hey Sophie to make a long story short your question what do Bart and Michael do and what does Martin system do Michael and I went from seminars to the school from the [60:40] school we go to online school and we created multiplicators to be able to do the work the hands on dogs worldwide then we do create and that will come next year the application game positive and negative reinforcement to inform millions of people about the full story the full quadrant the full quadrant because we [61:05] are sick and tired to speak with politicians that don't want to listen they just want to know where's the majority we're gonna create a majority of people that are educated and accept that the other people work another way with respect of the animal in animal welfare framework on cue with heart and soul responsible dog ownership

[61:31] that's where we are aiming for and Martin system is e-color brand owned by Michael and me we have no investors that tell us we must have so much profit we don't have them we don't want them our profit goes back in R&D and we will bring the tools of market needed for the future that is our promise so that is what Michael and Bart and Martin [61:56] systems are doing so you're not planning your retirement yet let's dream about it but it's too early so dream that dream is in the air okay guys I would say thank you for this conversation it was very interesting to hear your opinions and Sophie we must do this more [62:22] we gonna because who owns the media who owns social media influences the most we gonna influence people you're gonna be the moderator and a bunch of podcasts a bunch of podcasts and oh my god oh yeah perfect and maybe once a week on around the table with Sophie or whatever yeah [62:47] all right so it's not Sophie night it's around the table with during the day during the day okay hey okay all right thank you guys have a good have a good evening and keep up the good work bye bye bye bye bye The Use and the Bans of “Electric Shock Collars” 1 February 2024 England has banned the use of "electric shock collars" on dogs after a ten-year campaign. The new law will come into force 1 February 2024. Today we would like to ask Michael and Bart Bellon, owners of Martin System®, to comment on this.