E152: 뎁 존스(Deb Jones) - 돌고래에서 개까지: 더 나은 협력적 케어

webinars at FDSA. And that is now the majority of their training. So I do a lot of show and tell with them, show what I want students to do, and then use them for that purpose. So they enjoy it. They really like the chance to do any sort of work. And Zen is also now at the stage of old dog immunity, which means he gets to do whatever he wants, and he takes full advantage of that. So that's for now. There's a thinking about a possible puppy in the future, but it's still in the thinking stage. Gotcha. Well, I know you have a new project in the works. It's not just a puppy, but a project related to cooperative care. But before we kind of get to that, I want to talk a little bit about what got you interested in the topic in the first place. So my understanding is that it all started at the Shedd Aquarium. Can you share that story? Oh, yeah, I'd love to. This goes back a little bit to the summer of 2014. And that was the summer when I had decided that I was going to go out and get a lot of continuing education in animal training. And I wanted to do things with species that I had not had the opportunity to work with before. And I actually took a lot of time that summer and traveled a lot of places, taking whatever opportunities came up. And one of the ones that was actually the very last thing that summer is there was a program at the Shedd Aquarium in Chicago by Ken Ramirez. And it was a one week program where you went in and there was some classroom training. But then you also got to go right out into the back of the aquarium area. And you got to watch them work with the animals and participate in some of the work and get like private showings of a number of things. So it was a really, really excellent program. And I remember pretty clearly when this idea of thinking that we're not doing enough with our pet dogs in terms of cooperative care, kind of the husbandry work that we do both for grooming and for veterinary care. And I was standing, we were getting a little lesson, we were standing around the dolphin pool. And there were trainers in the pool with three different dolphins. And they were demonstrating some of their daily training of the dolphins. And so I thought at that time, oh, they do this every single day, they prepare these animals every single day for their vet care. And we don't do that. We just kind of take our dogs into the vet when they need it. And we hope for the best. So that moment really stood out for me as we need to, I need to think about this more, because we're not doing enough for our dogs in this particular way.

Mm-hmm. What were they, what skills were they working on with the dolphins to prep them for vet care? Do you remember? I do, because again, it made, it was one of those light bulb moments that makes a big impression on you. And so you, you remember a lot more about that than you do everything else in your life that ever happened. So I do remember a lot about that. There are these three trainers in the pool with three dolphins. And the one that I was watching and was closest to was teaching the dolphin to flip over and go belly up. And then they were finding a vein that runs down along the inside or the underside of the tail. And that's where they take blood. That's where they take blood samples when they need to do that. And so every day they would practice the flipping over. They would reinforce everything really, really highly with lots and lots of fish. And they would practice poking at that vein and they would practice duration in that position. So they were doing all this really, really good training with that one thing that they don't do very often. They don't take blood very often, but they were still making sure that there was a lot of upkeep on that. And it was going to be a very valuable behavior. So when they did have to do it, it would be no big deal. And that really struck me. It's like, we could do so much more of this than we do with our dogs. And that's really, to me, that was what made me want to focus in this area more. Yeah, that was going to be my next question. So what was it about that experience that really stuck with you and it inspired you? I mean, you focused on it so much. You've kind of, you know, begun to shape your career around it at this point on, you know, building this topic for our canine companions. Yeah. And it's, it wasn't anything that I thought about much or even intended to do. It was just that, that, that experience kept, I guess, percolating under the surface. And it kept coming back to that and thinking about it and going to myself, you know, there's, there's probably a way to set up a program because I'm a very logical kind of left brain kind of thinker. I like to do things in order and I like them to make sense. I'm not the more, I'm not the most creative or flexible trainer, but I am the most, I'm the one who puts the most thought in upfront and thinks about how to avoid problems and how to, to do all the little details. So I kept thinking about what, you know, how we start this, how do we make a systematic approach? How can I make all of

the things that are normally going to be done to a dog at the vet, or that might need to be done to my dog at the vet, along with all the grooming that dogs require on a regular basis? How can I make all those things pleasant and not just even pleasant, but actually valuable for the animal so that they want to do them rather than just tolerating them. And I'd say lots of times tolerance will be enough. We can get by with them tolerating what we do, but if I can make them want to do it, if I can set up the situation so they find it like, I can't wait, it's valuable to me. Then I think we're doing really good training and that's what I, that's how I wanted to go about it. So all of that was going on in my brain, probably for a couple of years before I ever started actually developing my cooperative care system. I think a lot of people kind of hear that term cooperative care and they think, you know, Neltrins, that's it. But I know you've broken it down to a lot more pieces than that. So can you share some of the skills that kind of fall into this category and how, you know, how they can be beneficial over the life of our dogs? Yeah, definitely. As I said, I, I think a lot about something before I do it. And I try to think of how do I get to the smallest possible thing that I need to teach to get started? Um, we all know what the end goal is. So yeah, the end goal is I want to be able to trim my dog's nails. Everybody will say that. And everybody realizes that's a pretty big thing. But for me, okay, where does that actually begin? If I want to trim my dog's nails, what do I have to have in place as a foundation before I even get there? And then I started thinking about foundations for all of the husbandry type behaviors and what we needed to start with. And typically where people think they need to start, they need to go back about three or four steps in the process. That's actually where you need to start. But we don't know that when we're first going into training, you don't realize that there's a foundation, an invisible foundation under there that you can't see yet. So I actually asked my vet, um, one day, um, when I was in, I said, if, you know, if you could, if you could have dogs know one thing coming into your office, um, for exams, what would that one thing be? And what she said without hesitation was I want them to stand still. And I was kind of surprised. I thought I'd get something else, but I'm like, okay, stationary. That makes a lot of sense. Most anything we want to do, the dogs are going to have to hold still for it. And so that became my starting point is can I get

my dogs to voluntarily hold still, happily hold still and be relaxed while we then start to do things to them. And so that to me became the part that most people completely gloss over and don't even realize they need. So they're trying to cut nails on a dog that's thrashing around. It's like, no, if we got stillness first, cutting nails is going to be a lot more easy, a lot more easy, a lot easier and a lot less dangerous. Um, so we go back to that. And that got me thinking about being stationary, which got me thinking about impulse control work because I teach, um, all my stillness behaviors to my dogs, um, through teaching them that controlling your impulses always pays off really well. So those things came into play as foundations. And I could totally see how those things also carry over to many other parts of life with a dog, right? Yes. Yes. Very, very much. Yeah. They're very, they're valuable all over the place. So it's worth doing as just your general foundation work. You've taught the class at FDSA a number of times now. In fact, it's open for registration right now. Um, I'd really love to hear how you're thinking on the topic has kind of evolved over time. Is there anything you do differently now or focus on more or anywhere that you've kind of changed your approach? Um, definitely lots of, when you teach, I think you find very quickly that what you thought was going to work for a class doesn't always work the way you think. And that, um, the things that I just kind of assumed, um, I should not. So I did a lot of looking at where my students were coming in, where they were having typical issues and trying to, you know, focus on those areas. So always breaking it down smaller, always going back a few more steps, um, so that dogs can be successful and people can be successful with their dogs. To me, that's one of the biggest things for any class. In this class as well, something that, um, I became more and more aware of as, as I continue to teach it was that it's not just that we're teaching our dogs what to do, um, which is a lot of holding still and being cooperative. So we're not just teaching them what to do. Um, and back to something Amy Cook says about, we're teaching them how to feel about what they're doing. And so that's the classical conditioning piece. And the classical conditioning is very, very important to me. And it's, it's taken on even more importance over time. I want my dogs to feel comfortable. Um, at the very least, I want them to feel comfortable about what's happening to them.

So I'm focusing a lot on teaching people to look at their dog's body language very, very closely and carefully and to pay attention to what the dog is telling them. Because lots of times we can do things to our dogs and we get them done, but that is not always good training. And in fact, sometimes that sets us way, way back because the dog wasn't comfortable with what we were doing to them. So we accomplished something once, but you're not going to be able to get it again because we didn't, we failed to pay enough attention to the emotional aspect of what was going on during the behavior. So I started really focusing on that. I've also added in more and more of, we've gone along, as I said, reading the dogs, um, and teaching them consent behaviors. So teaching them to let us know that it's okay to continue and also let us know when we, when they need to stop, when to have a signal that tells us, I can't do this now, this is making me too uncomfortable. So those can be very subtle sometimes and working to recognize those and to even train specific behaviors that say stop and go, um, or something that I'm working on more and more in the class. And I'd say the last piece of this that also comes along that people ask about often is, um, thinking about and dealing with non-optional behaviors when there's a time or procedures, when there's a time when we're just going to have to do it, no matter how you feel about it. But in particular, how can we minimize the damage? Because there will be damage. Anytime you have to force an issue, there's fallout and damage, but sometimes it still has to be done. So a lot now, I think a lot more about and teach a lot more about, okay, so what can we do to mitigate that as much as possible and get back on the right track as quickly as possible? So there's always a lot of changes when I teach. Every time I teach a class, I teach differently than I did the time before. So if people were only to do, uh, one thing to improve their dog's cooperation when it comes to this stuff, what would you recommend? What would you have them work on? One thing is hard. One thing is hard. So I'll give you sort of two related things, I guess. Um, and the first part of that comes back to, um, classical conditioning and emotional responses, making it a happy thing, making it a valuable thing. Um, this doesn't have to be unpleasant. In fact, my dogs want to do these things because they've learned through lots of repetition that getting brushed or getting your nails done or getting your teeth done, whatever that thing is,

it's going to lead to pretty good reinforcement consistently. So they're happy to do it because it pays off well for them. And I also, I have worked up to that over time. So one part of it is pay attention to the emotional aspects. Um, the other thing that I think is important, if you're only going to do one thing is, is let's look at some impulse control work. Cause if we get in a little bit of impulse control, we can get the dogs to settle and to think rather than reacting. Um, then we can move forward with learning and training. So I'd say some basic impulse control is a very, very good start. And I spend the first couple weeks of the class on this, these two things. So the first week is mostly about classical conditioning. Um, the second week is mostly about impulse control before we get to actually doing things that people think about, like brushing them or, you know, examining their mouth or whatever the case might be, because we need those as a foundation for pretty much everything. So those are my two things I would say, even though you only asked. That's okay. Uh, I mentioned, uh, earlier, I kind of teased this idea that you've got this new project you're working on related to all this stuff. Um, are you up for spilling the beans? What have you been working on? I am. I'm very excited actually to talk about this new project. So the project is, um, developing a cooperative care certificate program. Um, and it's, it came about, I'll talk a bit more about where it came about shortly, but let me just describe what it is first. Um, it's a three, three different level program. And in each level, there are 10 exercises that I think are very basic to cooperative care and that every dog should be comfortable with and learn to be comfortable with. So this program, um, trainers and owners can earn a title. It's a, like a video titling type of program, um, by showing that they've mastered these particular skills at each level. Okay. So they'll submit a video of their performance. Um, there are 10 exercises and to qualify, um, at that level of the three, they have to show that they could complete successfully at least seven of the 10. And we thought about doing it this way because sometimes there's a skill that you're struggling with and it's kind of holding you back, but everything else is looking good and you want to move ahead. Um, and occasionally maybe there's a skill you don't need or don't like, or whatever the case is. So you don't have to have perfection. You can move ahead and make progress without being perfect. And I think

that's important in everything that we do in dog training is that we keep moving ahead because if you try to be perfect, you'll never advance. So it's, um, these three levels and these 10 skills, that's, that's what I'm set on now. Everything is still open to, um, change as we go along. So I'm being flexible on that so far. Um, so can you, can you kind of give us a sneak peek? What kind of exercises we're talking about here, which people expect to be included? Okay. I can indeed. So I came up with, um, 10 exercises and I call them the 10 essentials. Um, people who do a lot of hiking have probably heard of the 10 essentials and those are the 10 things that you should take with you on every hike. Um, and so of course they're, they're the common things that would be important to help you or save your life. And so I started to think about, cause I like to hike a lot. I somehow have this carry over this overlap and I started to think about, okay, what are the 10 essential types of behaviors or skills that you would need in, um, cooperative care? So let me list them out for you. I have my list here. Pull this up. Okay. The 10 things are first. Well, first one is a chin rest. Um, the second is the dog lying on their side. So the chin rest, meaning that the dog holds their chin in the palm of your hand. And we use that a lot throughout many of the procedures we do. Um, it becomes a very comfortable position for the dog to be in and it moving out of the chin rest often gives us information that they're becoming uncomfortable, right? Lying on the side. So for examinations and sometimes for grooming, that's a comfortable position for the dog to be in. That can be really helpful. Um, just general restraint. So can I hold my dog still when I need to? And sometimes that's absolutely necessary. So I want to teach it before it's an emergency. I want to teach all of these things before they're an emergency, but restraint in particular. Well, my dog to learn that sometimes I come up and I grab you and I hold you and then I feed you a lot and they start to go, okay, that's you're weird, but okay. That's another one of those things that happens and Hey, it works out for me. So they're used to it before it has to happen in a situation. Um, the fourth one is where a muzzle. And I do think every dog should learn to comfortably wear a muzzle. Um, if dogs are in pain, they may well bite, but you know, every dog will, or has the possibility of biting. Um, sometimes it makes the people around the dog more comfortable in a vet setting if they can be

muzzled. So I think that's something that's important. Um, the fifth one is handling their feet, um, which of course leads to nail trims. And sometimes that's what I see with people who tell me they're having trouble cutting their dog's nails. They're really having trouble holding their dog's foot to start with. And you can't really cut the nails until you get to the point where you can hold the foot. Um, looking at the mouth and the teeth. Okay. So being able to open the dog's mouth to look at the teeth, to stick your fingers in their mouth and examine, that's another one that I think is important and necessary. Um, and we know that we should be brushing our dog's teeth and doing dental care. So that's important. The seventh one I have is taking medication. Um, again, something that's probably going to happen to your dog at some point in time, they're going to need to take pills and they may be pills that don't taste very good as well. So we can often get by with fooling them about medication. You can put it in a big enough treat. And if you have dogs like mine, they pretty much swallow anything that you give to them. And in fact, if you dropped it on the floor, they'd probably grab it and eat it too. Not that I want them to do that because that's dangerous and poor impulse control. But, um, to actually teach them when I put anything in your mouth, swallow it as a behavior, I think is, is really helpful and important, especially when you have dogs that become wise to the idea that you're hiding pills and treats and they become very suspicious of that from that point on. Um, and then we often have dogs as they get older who have a very poor appetite and don't want to eat, but they still need to take medication. And if they cannot take treats, now we've got a problem, um, because we can't get the medication in without forcing it. And I don't want to have to do that if I can avoid it. The eighth thing then is an injection or a blood draw. So getting used to the fact that, um, we're not going to actually in training be sticking them with needles on purpose, but we're going to simulate that to a great extent, get them used to restraining the area, um, to using an empty needleless syringe, um, you know, to even tying up a tourniquet on the leg sometimes. So we're going to work on all of that. Um, the eye exam is number nine, looking in the eyes, um, shining a light very briefly in the eyes, getting used to, cause that's going to happen at the vet's office. And 10 is an ear exam. Lots of dogs need their ears regularly cleaned. And often

happens that when that occurs, it's also painful. So getting them used to eye exams, ear exams, eye drops, ear drops ahead of time can be very, very helpful so that we're not introducing these things when it becomes an emergency and it's a have to get it done. Now they have a lot of previous experience where these things always lead to good outcomes. So those are my 10 behaviors. And then over the three levels that I'm looking at, we would increase the challenge or complexity of what you have to do at each level. Um, for example, in the chin rest behavior, um, at the first level, a single chin rest is where your dog will hold his muzzle in the palm of your hand. Right. Um, a double chin rest also in level one is where you hold out both hands towards your dog and they will hold their muzzle there. So then in level two, it becomes a double chin rest with a muzzle wrap, which means they'll hold their muzzle in both hands. I'm doing this. I'm actually demonstrating this even though you can't see it. Yeah. The other muzzle, you know, you can put them, put both your hands out, they'll put the muzzle in and you can wrap your thumbs up over the top of the muzzle. Um, and also then they will hold their muzzle on a pillow or towel in your lap. And then we get to the third level, um, where they will hold the muzzle on your lap or on another object like a stool or a chair. And while they do that, you can lightly touch the head and the neck. So at each level, I'm moving up that challenge for that particular behavior to get to the point where it would be something that we would commonly need to do either in grooming or at the vet's office. So that was my, my long answer to your question there. No, but it's awesome. It gives us a lot of detail. And I think is people are really good picture kind of, of, of what to expect and what the program will look like. So why a certificate program and, you know, who might be really interested in kind of earning those certificates? Um, that's a really good question because it is something that I would never have thought of doing. It didn't occur to me that a certificate program for this area would be something that people were interested in. But of course, as I get many ideas, this came from online and a student asked about it. So a student, an FDSA student mentioned something about it. And I thought, well, that's an odd idea at first that you would somehow give a, get a title or certificate for cooperative care. Cause to me, that's just what you do with your dog as a good owner and trainer is you do this stuff.

But the student mentioned, I was a little skeptical about it. I thought about it. And so then I took the idea, um, and asked some of the other FDSA instructors and we sort of brainstormed around with whether this was a good idea or not and, um, what it could look like and whether it would be valuable. And I got pretty good feedback and pretty helpful feedback that people thought it was something that could be useful, um, because it encourages people to do some very important training with their dogs. It gives them another reason beyond that. It's good for your dog to do this. Um, so after that, I went into my own Facebook group. I have a Facebook group called cooperative care with Deb Jones. So people can find it easily. And there's a couple thousand members in that group right now. So I just asked people there, what they thought about this idea of a certificate program. Cause I was still not convinced that it would be popular, but overwhelmingly people said they would love to do it. They thought it would be a great thing and they would be really, really interested in it. So I was sort of surprised because I would not have thought of it myself, number one. And even if I did think of it myself, I would not have expected it to be a really popular thing that people would truly want. I think part of it is with it. We like to have some sort of, you know, evidence that are from an external source that our training is good. And this would give people that it would say, yes, you've, you've worked your dog, you know, you've trained your dog up to these standards. And so it would give, um, some evidence to people that they could then have and show and be proud of doing to be able to say, yes, I was able to do this. I was able to earn this, this certificate. So the other part of it that I think once I started thinking about why would this be valuable to people, why would they want this? Um, because I wouldn't go to all the effort of doing it to find out nobody wants it or it's not useful. That would be, you know, not a good use of my time at all. But I do think the other part of it is that the way I will set it up, um, because of the way I teach and the way I approach things, it's going to be very organized and very systematic. And so basically by looking at what you need to do at each level for each of those 10 behaviors, um, it gives you a training plan. So it's pretty much, here's your training plan. Work on this with your chin rest, work on this with your restraint, work on this with, um, foot handling, whatever the

case might be. So I think that, that the program overall is one big giant training plan for what you should be doing for your cooperative care thing. Um, I think for instructors, it's going to be nice for them to know that they've hit all the bases and that they've done all the basics and then they can take it to their students and be confident that they're not forgetting or missing anything along the way. And it's also nice to be able to say, Hey, you know, I've gone through this program with my own dog and I've earned this certificate. So now I can teach it to you. So it gives you that, again, that evidence that you, you've reached a certain level of competence with what you're doing and now you can teach it to other people as well. So I think it will be helpful for instructors in particular, but I do hope it goes beyond instructors because I think it's good for everybody. So do you have, do you have kind of goals in mind for the new program? What would be the, the ideal outcome here? Well, I think my outcome with this has always been ever since I started working on it is I just want people to keep doing this. I want people to see how valuable it is to teach husbandry type skills and behaviors to your dog. To me, this is, this is something that can make your dog's life much, much better. There's direct, really, really valuable benefit to doing this for your dog. And I want more people to do it. I want more people to even know about it and think about it. I've been in dogs for 25 some years and I've owned dogs even longer than that. And it never occurred to me for, you know, most of those years that this is a really important thing that would be in my dog's best interest and would make their life much easier and more comfortable. So I think that's what I want people to take out of this, that this is an important thing. And it's a really, really valid thing to spend your time working on. And I hope that's what people get and what they take away from it. Right. Anything else you can share? I know the program is still, you know, kind of evolving a bit. It is. It's definitely still evolving. And it's at that stage where I've got everything out and now I'm just thinking about it. And then I'll go back and make a few changes and think about it some more. And then when I start to talk to people about it, I make even more changes. So it's in that revisionist kind of stage. What I can say about it is that I'm teaming up with Fensi Dog Sports Academy and we're presenting this as a joint effort. So this is, this is between myself and my cooperative

care work. And then it's also going to be hosted by Fensi Dog Sports Academy. So I'm excited about, about working out the details on that. Fensi, as many of you know, listening, and if you don't, FDSA has a team titling program in place already. And team, uh-oh, now I have to think of what it stands for. Training Excellent Assessment Modules. Oh, look at you. You're ahead of me. Training Excellent Assessment Modules. Yes, that's, I go back and forth because when we first started talking about it, we changed this many, many times. But this was developed by Denise Fensi, Terry Martin, and myself. And it's probably been maybe four years ago or so, maybe longer. Time is weird. And I don't remember. But we, that got developed and is turned into a really, really nice online video titling program. So the cooperative care certificate is going to be an offshoot of that. And it'll be set up in much the same way because they already have all of that in place, all of, you know, the work on that in place or much of it. And as you know, Melissa, you'll be working on on some of this as well. So we're doing, we're getting that together. But the team is also a series of exercises and then you move up a series of levels. So I think this just adds another topic to an already really, really excellent program. And we're going to keep working through all the details. In my mind, when we first started talking about it, I said, oh, it'll be ready in the spring of 2020. I have revised that. And I'm thinking maybe fall of 2020. In the very back of my mind, I'm like, maybe the end of 2020. But there's no huge rush. But I, you know, I do want to keep consistently working on it. But I don't want to put it out before I'm really, really proud of it and happy with it. So working through all the stages now, and we'll see, we'll, we'll let people know, I will be letting people know all over the place when it's ready, because I will be very happy about that. And for anybody who like really wants to get a jumpstart, taking the class is a really good place to start. It is, it definitely is. Because that's, I think, what one of the questions that's going to come up with people, okay, you've told us what to do. Now, how do we do it? You told us we need to teach these behaviors. So now we need to find a place to get some instruction on it. So the class is a very good place to start with that. And I'm also typically often offering webinars and workshops on that topic. So they come up pretty regularly. So one last question for you, Deb. And it's the

one that I'm asking everybody to kind of end things out for the podcast interview these days. What's something you've learned or been reminded of recently when it comes to dog training? Okay, I'm always learning something. One of the things that I say a lot, though, and it holds very true for me, when people are getting frustrated with their training, and they're having trouble, and they don't see progress is I always say be the turtle. And by be the turtle, what I mean, and I need to remember for myself, is that slow progress is still moving forward. Doing anything in training is better than doing nothing. And it's very easy for me to sit back and think a lot about training, but not actually do it. So I have to give myself that advice regularly, to, you know, just do something, you know, do to do a two minute training session, that's better than a zero minute training session. And you're going to be further ahead than you were when you did nothing. So I'm constantly kind of reminding myself as well as everybody else around me now that turtles win races, turtles still get where they want to go. So don't feel like you have to be quick to do it. Just do something, do some sort of training. Awesome. Thank you so much for coming back on the podcast, Deb. Oh, I'm always happy to be here, Melissa. Thank you. And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with Nicole Wybysh to talk about competing in the higher levels of rally and obedience. Don't miss it. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice. Then our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fendi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fendi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Line. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Be right back.