E194: 샤론 캐럴(Sharon Carroll) - 두려움, 불안, 혹은 그 외의 것인가?

And he got his FENZY team two just a couple of weeks ago. So that was pretty exciting for him. And he'll head out into obedience and rally next year, assuming the world turns back to normal. And I've dabbled in a little bit of nose works with the dogs. But something I've never had a go at, I'm really keen to have a go at, is tracking. And I've noticed Lucy has a foundation tracking coming up next term. So I'm thinking I'll be trying to get a spot in that class. Awesome. Lots of different things there. And congrats on the new team two title. That's a big deal. Yeah. So I mentioned kind of in the intro, you know, much of your routine work is anxiety-based issues and aggressive behavior in dogs. So what do we really know about the range of conditions that dogs can have? Yeah, it's a hugely developing field. And if we had this talk sort of 20 years ago, people would have thought we're all mad because it really is that current and it's developing constantly. There's certainly still debate whether wild animals can have psychopathologies. Some researchers and scientists believe there's very clear evidence for that, especially things like the wild elephants that are suspected to have PTSD issues because the triggers that are causing their PTSD are very similar to the triggers that would cause ours. So breakup in family unit, early separation, early maternal separation due to poaching, habitat destruction similar to us losing our homes. And then we see in those elephants the increased startle effects or the change in the startle responses. And we see antisocial behavior and them having difficulty forming normal social bonds. And we see hyperaggression and all sorts of things that we might see in a psychopathology in humans. And so there's a bit of evidence out there for wild animals. There's certainly still some researchers suggesting that there probably is, there are wild animals out there of various species, but that perhaps it's just difficult for us to really identify them in the wild. And then there's other people that suggest that there probably isn't a lot of psychopathology in wild animals. But really the reason being given for that is that through natural selection, it just doesn't favor those animals. You know, it's difficult for them to survive potentially and certainly to reproduce. So it's potentially something that doesn't affect wildlife as much as it maybe does affect our dogs because they're very much under the pressure of our artificial selection where we certainly don't select against behavioral pathologies. And then we have more pressure on dogs. Some dogs have careers.

Military dogs have careers. We have performance dogs. You know, they're under different sort of pressure to what the average dog would be physically and psychologically. All dogs pretty much have an unnatural lifestyle compared to what they would have had 30 years ago, let alone sort of thousands of years ago. So I think it would be pretty elitist and naive to assume that only humans could have mental health issues or these psychopathologies. Certainly in dogs, we see sort of to circle back to answer your question, in dogs, we see canine compulsive disorders. So we don't use the word OCD in dogs because the obsessive part does require us somewhat knowing what they're thinking, the obsession part that occurs in humans. So it's termed often canine compulsive disorder, but we certainly see compulsive disorders in dogs. Anxiety disorders, I think that one most commonly people would recognize would be separation anxiety, but there's a range of anxiety disorders in dogs. Specific phobias. So noise phobias probably would be the one that most people would recognize there, or confinement distress, so equivalent to claustrophobia in humans. Then we see things emerging. People start talking about things like ADHD-like disorders in dogs. And then, of course, we've got canine PTSD. So in the military dogs, it's not uncommon to be diagnosed with canine PTSD, where the dogs genuinely change their feelings and their joy around their toys. And a whole lot of things change, just like you'd find similarly in PTSD in people. Can you just talk a little more about kind of the differences between some of those conditions? And, you know, kind of what do we know about them? Yeah. Well, they're all really based on behaviors in animals because in humans, most of these conditions, although we can see some of the behavioral components and certainly the effect on physiology, we mainly are going to see these identified in humans due to the humans sharing their feelings and thoughts about what's going on. In animals, of course, we can't do that. But we do base it on behaviors. So when we see a behavior that appears similar to a behavior we might see in the human, and then especially when that behavior then has a reduction or elimination, when administered similar psychotropic medications to what would treat that condition in humans, then we start to say, well, we probably are seeing that condition. What I would say is that a lot of people look at a fearful dog and immediately jump to the sort of labeling of anxiety or anxious. I'd say there's a big difference.

Fearful dogs, you know, even really, really fearful dogs with really good management and training can usually come completely out of their shell and become completely what we would call quote-unquote normal. And dogs with true anxiety behaviors, it can be a lifelong slug, sort of similar to what it can be in humans. So the more we kind of become aware of the variety of psychological issues the dogs can have, you know, I'd assume the harder it kind of becomes to differentiate, especially for kind of your average dog trainer, your average pet person who maybe doesn't have a background in some of this stuff, between what's normal, like a normal fear response, and what just isn't, right? So when you see something as worthy, when do you see something kind of as worthy of looking for a diagnosis versus something that really kind of falls into that normal range? Yeah, it's really tough. What I would say is we have to never forget, there's wide variation in dogs, just like there is in people. We have high energy dogs and we have low energy dogs. We have dogs that have high frustration thresholds and dogs with low frustration thresholds. Some dogs will jump to aggression very readily. Other dogs are going to almost never show aggression. We know that some dogs are going to be very comfortable around unknown people and some dogs aren't. And some dogs are going to be comfortable with an unknown dog in their face and some dogs aren't. So we have to know that everything's on a spectrum and there's a wide range of normal. We have to not be quick to jump to the idea that it might be abnormal. And I think certainly as a behaviour consultant, most of the times that I'm contacted by people, the dog's actually showing a really normal response. It's what we'd term undesirable. It's something we might want to address for a range of reasons. But it's not necessarily an abnormal behaviour. I worry about underdiagnosis, but I worry about overdiagnosis as well. And I certainly think labelling dogs maybe is not a great plan unless that's going to benefit the dog in some way. And then I think on top of that, the honest truth, you know, I'll probably get shot down for this one, but the honest truth is if you take a behavioural issue and you take that dog to a GP vet, they're probably going to look for a physiological cause. If you take that dog to a behaviour expert, they're going to look for a behavioural disorder. And if you take that dog to a trainer, they're going to look for a training issue. And I don't think any three of those things are wrong. Often it's a combination of those things.

So we certainly have to look at all those things. And no dog is going to not need, you know, to potentially, you know, you need to look at those issues. But I think that's just a little bit of reality. Sometimes we can maybe jump to wanting to label a dog when maybe it's just a version of normal and it just happens to be that dog. So you kind of were talking there about the, I guess the downsides almost of labelling, right? But is it ever important or when would it be important to really know what the underlying condition is if the dog is behaving in a way that's kind of outside of normal? Yeah, I think we definitely need to be able to identify genuinely abnormal behaviour or even extremes of behaviour. And, you know, there, I think we look to, you know, do we need further help? You know, that's one of the reasons why we might want to go looking. Do we need to access veterinary help? Certainly if I see a sudden change in behaviour without an obvious sort of underlying reason or if I see something that I think might be pain-related or the dog's actually causing injury to itself, trying to escape or from a compulsive disorder. I saw a dog just a week or so ago that had compulsive tail chasing and it had actually had one eye surgery and two tail amputations at different levels because it had injured itself so badly during tail chasing, compulsive tail chasing. Wow. Yeah. So it's, you know, those sort of extremes are out there. I think inappropriate elimination, that's another one that, you know, I'd probably want to be talking to vets. I think if you've got a dog that's house-strained and it suddenly starts toileting in the house, you know, we worry about stress, we worry about anxiety, has something changed in the home to set that off? Also, you know, if there's no improvement, if someone competent has assessed the dog and they've started a training protocol but we don't see improvement, then, yeah, we want to maybe be out there talking to a behaviour vet. So I think that's one of the important reasons why we want to know what that condition is, is so that we can get the right help for the dog. And also just to form the right protocol, we need to know, say it's separation-related problems, if it's separation anxiety, that's going to be dealt with differently to if it's a frustration-based behaviour. If it's an escape behaviour, we can't stop at that. We have to say, why is the dog trying to escape the enclosure? Is it trying to reunite with the owner? So is it an anxiety panic type behaviour? Or is it trying to escape the enclosure because it's fearful of the enclosure or something in the enclosure?

Or is it trying to access something outside of the enclosure? So is it frustration-based? And so I think that's why we want to know that underlying reason so that we can just get the right help for the dog and form the right protocols to help the dog become better. So what are some of the behaviour-modifying techniques out there for working with dogs who are demonstrating, you know, some of these types of conditions? Yeah, there's so many, so many different techniques and strategies. I think the big thing is to know that there's not going to be one method that's going to address every dog. So even if you see that one behaviour and you want to go and address that, we really have to know what the underlying motivation or the underlying emotion is to address it effectively. Most of the protocols are obviously going to aim at managing focus and arousal because they're the two really big things. Obviously, we have counter-conditioning for our fear-based behaviours, maybe functional rewarding, like giving distance for dogs in those similar sort of settings. There's always going to be a cognitive component. I think a lot of people focus so much on the conditioning and they start to say classical conditioning and really we're very rarely exclusively using classical conditioning in a domesticated animal. Potentially, if I was trying to get close to a wild animal, then we might be using, or even a captive wild animal, we might be using that classical conditioning approach where it's just like I appear and food appears. But for dogs, our domesticated dogs, you know, we're almost always going to be asking for a behaviour or perhaps we somewhat think of looking at lack of a behaviour. We're looking at them not performing the behaviour we don't want and that's part of what we're reinforcing. So yes, there's a classical conditioning or counter-conditioning component, but a lot of it is to do with operant conditioning when we're managing behaviours in dogs. Big thing's always going to be assessment of the motivation or emotion that's actually driving the behaviour. That's how you're going to get the best protocol. So if I had a dog that had fear-based behaviours and I tried to use a protocol that was designed for impulsivity issues, I'm possibly going to run into trouble. And equally, if I have a dog that's performing these behaviours, not for fear reasons, it's performing them because of maybe a breed specific tendency or it's performing it for frustration or there's an impulse issue and what I used a fear-based protocol, I'm pretty unlikely to be really successful. So if I'm picking the wrong strategy, I may get some improvement but not full improvement

or I may actually make it worse, which would be a much bigger problem. So I think, you know, there's lots of techniques out there but the real key is knowing which technique to use and when to use that technique. Even if we looked at leash reactivity as just one example, people think of that as one thing that can be fixed with one strategy but why is the dog being reactive? Is it fear-based? Is it a true situation where the dog honestly feels like there's a threat to its safety or is it frustrating? Or is it resource guarding the owner or maybe some objects like toys or treats that the owner has on them? Is it true owner guarding? Is it a protection-based behaviour? Is it just a previously reinforced behaviour whether that was intentional or unintentional? So I think, yeah, we've really got to make sure we're really looking at not just the behaviour but really looking at the motivation and the emotion behind it so we can pick the right strategy because like I say, there's so many strategies to choose from but the key is matching the strategy to the actual dog. Which leads really nicely kind of into what I was going to ask next which is if you could share just a little more kind of about how diagnosis impacts our treatment or training plan. Yeah. So, I mean, some cases are just going to be bigger than others. We need to be able to look at what's really driving this behaviour so that we can get the correct approach. If, for example, we look at these separation type issues, just say this is a separation, a true separation anxiety. Well, we're going to be in for probably a bit of a long haul. We're going to probably have a team approach. We're probably going to have a vet or a veterinary behaviourist on board as well as a trainer as well as the owners. There's going to be a big impact on the owners' lives for at least a period of time. So that's a big, much bigger thing than if, for example, we ran out to a dog that had some separation related problems. But when we get there, we find it's actually just inadvertently been training an incorrect behaviour. So they've been inadvertently reinforcing the behaviour they didn't want or we've just got some frustration issues. So we need to maybe improve the frustration threshold for the dog or we may need to practice some techniques that help the dog calm itself when it does get frustrated. So there's an example, I guess, of we need to really get the diagnosis, not just our dog behaves like this when we're absent, but why is the dog behaving like this? And then when we work that out, we can get the right treatment, we can get the right strategy on board. And maybe in the case of a frustration related issue, it turns out to be something that can be

resolved quite quickly. And so, yeah, we've just got to make sure that we get in there and get the correct identification of not just the behaviour, but that underlying cause so that we can get that correct treatment or training protocol in place. It's kind of the big question here, or at least the one for a lot of people, that's a big question. Nature versus nurture, right? So can you talk to how that kind of plays into all this? Yeah, that's a really, really tough question, Melissa. You know, we know it's both. We know it's both. Even for some of the biggest sort of named psychopathologies, we know we need a genetic predisposition or a genetic susceptibility. But then on top of that, we need exposure to a specific situation circumstance to actually trigger the condition in that person or in that dog in this case. And so it's going to be a combination of both. I think we should be paying attention to both. Maybe I think perhaps we're not paying enough attention to the genetic component nowadays because the artificial selection, like if we just look at the nature side of it, we're not doing a great job in some cases. And this is why we're perhaps seeing more of these behavioural issues out there. Artificial selection means we're mostly selecting for one or more specific traits. You know, if we're in performance, we're selecting for the behavioural traits that help us. If it's a working dog, we're selecting for behavioural traits. If we're in confirmation showing, we're selecting for morphological traits, how the dog looks. And we start to focus so closely on those few things that matter so much to us and forget that everything else is coming along for the ride. And sometimes we need to be really careful and sometimes we should be making more effort to select against some of these psychopathologies or some of these undesirable traits. And then on the nurture component, wow, the lifestyles our dogs lead is just so far removed from their historic lifestyle. In recent years even, let alone long term. And this places so much pressure on these dogs. And I think especially we don't do a great job with socialising, socialisation, which is kind of really sad because we try so hard to do such a good job. You know, we're all trying so hard to make sure we do this phenomenal socialisation effort. But if we really look at what happens in the wild, if we look at that nurture component, like the component we play a role in, if we look at animals in the wild, when they're going through that early socialisation window, it's so critical that they learn what's relevant. So what's potentially valuable out there? What do they need to know about? What are their food resources, et cetera?

They also need to know about what's relevant in terms of what's potentially dangerous. You know, and they need to be able to quickly give their attention to things that are potentially valuable and things that are potentially dangerous. But you know what's more important? They need to be able to ignore everything else. They have to habituate to everything else, to all the irrelevant stuff, because otherwise they would be mentally exhausted and they would not be able to function. They wouldn't survive. And what we don't do is enough of that. We don't do the having them ignore lots of things. Instead, I think sometimes maybe people see someone working a behaviour modification case, like a dog that's maybe developed some fear-based issues. Maybe it's got fear-based issues to dogs and they see these protocols of like, let's see the dog, feed the dog. You know, let the dog see the dog and then feed your own dog. And they start to do that with puppies and you go, wow, you're just making that a potentially valuable resource now. Every time they see a dog, their arousal increases because they go, that's important, that's become relevant. You've taught me that it's relevant, that dog, you know, so they start looking for dogs. I'd actually rather than think that most dogs out there are irrelevant and that they should just walk past them. they're not actually potentially valuable or potentially dangerous. So sometimes I think we have this idea that we're going to give them this such a positive outlook that we're actually, we forget that arousal comes in two forms. You know, positive arousal can be just as difficult to manage and just as much of an issue as when a dog arouses for negative violence emotions. So we have to be careful we're not actually training these dogs to hyper arouse about things that we actually wish they'd consider were a bit irrelevant. So yeah, I think we certainly, you know, just in dogs as a whole but even in the, in looking at the psychopathologies, we probably aren't doing the greatest job at the nature part or the nurture part unfortunately because I think everyone that's out there breeding is trying really hard to breed the best dogs for what they do and I think everybody that owns a dog is doing, you know, trying to do the absolute best thing they can do to give that dog a well-rounded life but sometimes I think we get a tiny bit mixed up at times. So I realized kind of looking back through the questions as we were chatting that I didn't stick something in here specifically about the webinar you have coming up. So I do just want to kind of quickly touch on that. So you are going to do a webinar on this stuff for us coming up on December 3rd. Do you want to just say anything

about what you're going to cover in the webinar or kind of what folks should know? Sure. We're going to look at all of this type of stuff. We're going to talk about habituation and how important it is to teach dogs about things that are irrelevant. We're going to talk about how dogs form perception and response. So why two different dogs perceive something completely different. One might see it as a threat and one might see it as completely benign. Even two dogs that see it as a threat. Why does one lunge and bark and one runs away? So we're going to talk about those sorts of things. We're going to talk about behavior modification and how we select an appropriate method or why it's so important to select an appropriate method. We're going to talk about some emotions, so things like anxiety and fear and frustration and anger and how they play their role and just a tiny bit about arousal and genetics and the role genetics play in this particular topic. Awesome. And again, for folks who are listening, this should come out. You guys should be listening to this the Friday before, if you're listening, the day it comes out before the webinar. So the webinar will be next Thursday. All right, last question here for you, Sharon. So what's something that you've been, that you've learned or that you've been reminded of recently when it comes to training? Yeah, I think what I've been reminded of is that dog training is really hard, period. It's just really hard. You know, every time you think you're starting to become really competent, something will come up that will make you believe you're actually completely incompetent. I think we're all trying so hard to do the best we can for the dog and achieve the goals we're trying to achieve. And I think it's just really hard. It's mentally, for people, it can be really hard. It's a bit of a lonely type sport. You're often working on your own. Sometimes you don't have a great support network and that the people around you mightn't even have the same philosophies as you. So then you can, you know, you're not only dealing with your own demons trying to get the best outcome, but then you're trying to, you're questioning that sometimes because other people have other thoughts. And then on top of that, you sometimes feel like you need to defend yourself. And it's just hard. It's really hard. And, you know, the dogs make it worthwhile. The dogs, I just love my dogs. Like I love my dogs. I love all dogs, but I love my dogs. And, you know, I don't know, they're not, they're not the most perfect competition dogs. You know, I have dogs that are a little bit low energy. You know, I'd love to have a dog that could work for longer than mine. You know, mine, you know, they don't love

repetition and they, I mean, they love work, but they don't love repetition. They don't like long periods of work. And I'm a bit more of a driven person than they are. So I suspect by the time I talk to you next time, there's probably going to be another puppy. I'm already starting to look for another puppy because I need to share the load of my, my sort of desires so that the dogs don't, don't get pushed to do too much. Yeah. And, and so I think, yeah, it's, it's really hard. And I think everybody that's out there trying to train dogs probably agrees. It's, you know, it has some amazing high moments, but it has some really tough moments where you, you know, question yourself and you think you don't know what you're doing and, you know, it's hard. Yeah. Well, thank you for coming on the podcast, Sharon. It's good to be reminded of that. Yeah. Thanks so much for having me back. And thanks to our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week. Don't miss it. If you haven't already subscribed to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by BenSound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. o