E33: 로라 반아렌동크 바우(Laura VanArendonk Baugh) - "사회성, 예절, 그리고 영리함"

So I know I kind of mentioned you've been a professional trainer since 1989, but I wanted to ask a little bit about how you got into it. So how did you originally get into training professionally? Um, I didn't want to do what I went to school for is the short answer to that question. So I graduated with a couple of degrees in, you know, mass communications and foreign language and all these things that, you know, like, okay, those are nice, but I don't want to do that. I ended up getting into, I'd done some, some obedience training and such previously. I ended up getting a job doing that actually at a big box store. Um, you know, so that kind of thing. I worked up there, became a regional manager for their training programs. Um, and it was actually while I was there that I went, um, that I'm a crossover trainer and I was originally trained in more of a Keeler approach and, um, kind of encountered clicker training and like, oh, this makes sense. Oh, this works really well. And so I had my, uh, crossover experience. Um, and yeah, just kind of never looked back after that, which is funny because, you know, for so many years I was like, oh, food and toys are stupid. We don't bribe dogs. Uh, and that's totally not where I am now. So, well, I'm still, I'm still in the, we don't bribe dogs, but toys and food are not necessarily bribing. Right. Right. So was there anything in particular that got you started on that journey? What was kind of the switch or was there a particular experience or anything kind of that you can point to? There were, there were several things. I mean, I kept seeing, you know, people doing, you know, interesting things with clicker training. That was, that was nice. You know, they were doing cute tricks and stuff. Um, and then the kind of the clincher for me was one of my dogs at that time. Um, her name was Chaucer. She was a brilliant little dog and she was mildly reactive. And the longer we worked, the more and more reactive she became. And, uh, nothing that I knew how to do was working. And in fact, everything was getting worse. So clearly the dog was stupid. Uh, it couldn't possibly be me. Um, and so I was in depth talking with somebody about clicker training and I, the nugget that I got from that was, uh, to click for the behavior that you want the dog to do. And I thought, okay, um, I want her to be around other dogs without barking and lunging. So I will wait until she looks at another dog and then I will click before she barks. So, uh, you know, this, this actually makes great sense. And we do it all the time now.

And, um, listen, we did it called it, you know, the look at that game. Um, so it sounds hilarious to say that I invented the look at that game as my first clicked behavior. Um, which, you know, I'm not in, in not, in no way am I taking credit for that because I had no freaking clue what I was doing. It was one of those things that was very logical and I accidentally got it right. Um, but what was amazing about that is it worked like within seconds. I guess I said, she was a brilliant dog. She made this work for me despite my absolute ignorance. And, uh, so I clicked her, she turned around and got her treat and I clicked her against her. And I was like, oh, wow. Like we're 10 seconds in and this is working. And, you know, the effect of, uh, prompt reinforcement, it changed my behavior. And, uh, so that's, that's where I started doing more research and saying, oh, this is really cool. Yeah. I mean, especially since you've been trying other things for so long and probably felt really frustrated at that point with a lack of results. Oh, there was a lot of frustration. Yeah. I was, I was so ready for something to work. And, uh, and I think, you know, if you, if you look at, you know, the dogs, a lot of the dogs that we work with, a lot of the reactive dogs, you know, they're very frustrated. They're very, very ready for something to work. And, you know, just having that, that really powerful instance of positive reinforcement, uh, for a different behavior, it can be massively effective. Um, because, you know, Hey, I lived that. I'm not just making that up because that's the way the theory goes. That was my experience is I was so frustrated. I got something that worked so well and I was like, okay, tell me more. Like I'm in now. Right. So I want to talk a little bit about your first book and maybe, you know, you just kind of shared a little bit about this. What led you to write fired up, frantic and freaked out? I was, uh, with canines in action. I do a lot of in-home sessions. Um, I work with a lot of dogs that, you know, aren't equipped for whatever reason to come into a group class. And I realized that about 70% of my cases were, you know, anxiety or reactivity. And I just kept saying the same thing over and over and over. I'm like, oh my gosh, I should just write this down, save time. So I did. So that's honestly kind of where that came out of was I was seeing so much of it and doing so much of it. Um, it was made partly as a, you know, reference guide for clients if they wanted a, you know, a homework sheet, you know, um, here's a, here's a book to follow along with.

And partly so that I would, you know, maybe not have to say it quite as so often in the future, which would be fantastic. So for those not familiar with the book, can you explain a little bit kind of about the main focus and what you talk about? The focus there is really on teaching dogs to think and to kind of be cognitive in the moment. Um, one of the things I talk about is if you have a fear reaction or just a pure joyous excitement reaction, those can frequently result in the same behavior, uh, patterns and problems. Because what you have is a dog who's just way too excited to think, you know, whether he's eustress or distress, he's still stressed and aroused and not processing. So it's about teaching the dog to think in the moment. It's about reducing threshold. And it's especially about teaching the human end of the leash to develop a good splitting technique and utilize that to make it, you know, much easier for the dog to focus in a new situation. I definitely read your first book. And one of the things that really stood out to me was the nice balance you managed to strike between the what and kind of the why. So it covers both the approach to training and kind of the science behind what's going on in the dog's brain. And I think you managed to do that in a pretty accessible way. Um, you know, when I put you in the book, I definitely did not have the background that I do now. And it really kind of helped build a base understanding for me. Can you talk a little bit about how you approach, uh, training for a dog that tends to overreact? Like the approach that you use in the book? Well, first, I'm just so happy to hear you say that because I'm such a science nerd. And I wanted to make that science, you know, very user friendly. So thank you. That's awesome. So the mat, um, is, and, and definitely like, I am not the only person to use a mat in this way. And I want to be upfront. Like, I don't want to claim credit where it's not due. There's a lot of, um, really great mat work protocols out there. Uh, but what they all have in common is it's a really handy visual crutch for the dog. And it certainly doesn't have to be a mat. There's a lot of, you know, just kind of, you know, physical or mental touchstones that could be used, but a mat is just so convenient and so easy for the human, uh, to, to use in that way. Um, but what you're doing is you're building a fluency.

You're building some, um, uh, patterns of behavior that a stressed animal can fall back on, but you're also building some patterns that, um, that they can work through, I guess, on a more cognitive level of, oh, when I'm in the situation, when my mat is presented, I should think about going to my mat, I should think about, you know, doing these behaviors on it. And you can use it both as a emotional crutch. Oh, I'm on my mat. Nothing bad can happen to me. Uh, or as a, you know, actual behavior prompt, um, that, you know, go, go through these physical actions and you can earn reinforcement for it. Um, and, uh, and then the big thing that the mat does so well, and that's why I think it's so useful is it's so easy to split behaviors, uh, you know, in a situation, uh, using that mat. So I can, I can, you know, take it obviously from looking at the mat, touching the mat, going to the mat, down on the mat, chin down on the mat. But then I also have a nearly infinite number of positions that that mat can be in, in or around a trigger or, you know, whatever. So there's, um, it's a very flexible tool. I can fade it or not fade it based on necessity. It's, you know, just a, it's a really, uh, easy way for, uh, for people to do that. And for me as a, as an instructor, if I'm working with clients who maybe don't, aren't coming in with a lot of, um, with a huge skill set and a lot of background, uh, it's easy for me to manipulate the mat and they can focus on the dog or, or their patterns. And it just takes them to load off them. There's a lot of flexibility to it. I like it. It makes the criteria clear for the person as well as the dog. It's kind of a neat way of looking at it. Yeah. So I know you mentioned you, uh, like to nerd out a little bit in that stuff, and I'm going to give you full approval to go ahead and do that. So I wanted to have you share a little bit about, um, kind of why it works and what's going on in the dog's brain. Kind of what you're teaching when you have, when you introduce them at work and begin to introduce triggers and all of that. Awesome. Um, there's, there's a lot going on in the brain, but, um, what I'm specifically, what I think is great about these kinds of approaches. Is, is if I have a stressed dog and an anxious dog, and that looks, well, let's be honest, that's where almost all of aggression and reactivity comes from. Um, and so I've got a dog who's, you know, not in a happy place in his head. Uh, and every time I click with a clicker conditioned dog, there's a tiny little shot of dopamine that's going on.

So if I'm bringing a dog into what could potentially be a trigger situation, and we start with low criteria and we're building up at a rate that he can be successful at, we have a high rate of reinforcement, you know, constant reinforcement going on. And this dog is getting dozens or hundreds of little dopamine shots. It's free drugs, legal that you don't have to wrestle down his throat in a pill form. It's great. And, um, so that's a, I think that's a really key thing, um, that, you know, it's just built into the system. There's no way to mess that up. You know, if we're, if we're, if we've set up our clicker and our training situation, right, that's going to work for us a hundred percent of the time. So I think that's great. Uh, and so, yeah, a lot of it's just taking the dog. The, the, the, the visual I use, and I always tell my clients, you know, if this works for you, great. If it doesn't work for you, flush it. There will not be a quiz at the end of the day. But the visual, the visual I use is there's a continuum and the dog is limbic and reactive at one end. And he's very cognitive and rational and analytical at the other. And he can't be both at once. So we're asking the dog to move away from reactive and toward proactive. And we do that by making him. That's why I love clicker training, specifically shaping and capturing as opposed to luring, which there's nothing. It's not a moral problem to lure, but it's less useful in this particular context because I want that dog being analytical. And, you know, kind of really just crunching down on what behavior should I try next. And he can't do that while he's being reactive. So if I'm reinforcing being analytical, it's going to change not only what he's doing, but it's going to change the chemistry in his brain. I loved, I, I've had this happen a number of times, been thinking of one particular incident. I was working with a client and their dog for the first time. And we're in their living room, we're in their front room, and we've just been introducing the mat. The dog's not even fully down on the mat yet. He's, he's experimenting with a number of things, but he really hasn't grokked yet that down is the, is what we're after. And while we were working, a FedEx delivery guy showed up at the front door, which is the dog's like worst trigger from what I've been told. And he's knocking at the door, he's leaning in and he's 10 feet away from this dog. And the dog looks up from the mat and he just gets his, like his forehead's creased, little eyebrows are pushed together. And you could almost just see him be like, dude, I'm busy.

And he looks back at the mat and I am just, you know, clicking and treating like shotgunning rapid fire because the dog's staying on the mat. And he just, you know, he, you could see he just was really tempted to, there's a pattern that I'm supposed to go to, but I'm really concentrating on this right now. And it is a, you know, it's a physically different mode that they have to get into. And just like, it's hard for them to get out of that. You know, if you've ever tried to talk a dog out of that reactive burst where they're lunging and barking and, you know, and they can't snap back into rational thoughts, it's just as hard to go the other way. So we just put them in the rational thought and then it's harder for them to fall into limbic. Interesting. I love that example just because it really kind of illustrates both the purpose and kind of the effect of changing brain space. I love it because it was their first session and like, man, if I could have set this up any better to get client buy-in. You know, it was great. Right. I bet they followed through. Yeah. So I want to switch gears and talk a little bit about your new book. It's a fairly different topic. So what led you to write Social, Civil, and Savvy? I think it's really interesting that you say it's a different topic because I'm looking at it as these are the same things. For me, socialization is kind of the prequel. It's getting your dog to think proactively in a novel or potentially trigger situation before we develop a problem, which, of course, is my ideal. I think most trainers would love to put themselves out of business. Like, we can always go and train fun stuff. But, you know, if we're working with reactivity and aggression and all of that, we would love to put ourselves out of business there. But, yeah, socialization is all about teaching young brains to look at a situation and go, huh, this is interesting. What can I do here to get what results? So how do you actually define socialization, either for yourself or, you know, kind of in the book? That's a much wigglier concept than you would think. Like, there should be a, you know, a six-word definition that would be easy to apply. But, you know, even when you get into, you know, psychology texts and stuff, it's not that simple, even in our own species. The way I'm going to just, as a purely practical application, I want socialization to mean I am aware of my environment. I'm making proactive decisions about my environment. And I'm thinking about the environment. So even if something is new, I can compare it to things I've seen before.

I can say, huh, this is interesting. What happens if I try this? You know, I want an animal who's thinking proactively is my ultimate goal there. Mm-hmm. Is there, you know, one place where people often kind of go wrong or, you know, a common misconception you think people have when it comes to socializing puppies that maybe sometimes causes more harm than good? Yeah, I think there's actually two. I think it's two ends of a spectrum where you have, you know, the, I don't socialize at all. And, you know, a lot of times you'll hear trainers talk, depending on the part of the country, but you'll hear trainers talk about winter puppy syndrome. You know, the puppies come home in November or December and the weather's horrible and nobody takes them out to do anything until spring. And by then you have dogs who are like, no, no, the world looks like my living room and anything outside of that is scary. And then the other extreme is doing too much in the name of socialization and just really overwhelming a dog and teaching them that, you know, they don't necessarily have control of their environment and they, you know, and the world is a scary place. Um, and I, I've seen a few articles circulating lately, um, on, you know, the, the dangers of socialization and don't, you know, you know, you shouldn't socialize because it's bad for your dog. And, and on the one hand, I was like, Hey guys, you know, like several years ago, I wrote an article called don't socialize the dog. Like, you know, this isn't new, but it, the point is not that we don't socialize. The point is not to socialize badly. And, you know, I think if it, if I take a dog to a situation that's overwhelming and I don't give him agency choice and a way to affect his environment. Yeah. I'm going to get myself in trouble. I'm teaching the dog that, you know, reactivity is his only choice. Um, but that's not a fault of socialization. That's a fault of bad socialization. So, so I've kind of heard it expressed as, you know, it's not just that you want them exposed to things. It's just that you want them to actually have positive experiences with things. Is that kind of. Yeah. I want every, every socialization experience. If I, if I have perfect control of things, which we rarely do, but this is my goal. Um, I want every socialization experience to end with, I win what's next. And, you know, that's, you know, even if the dog starts off with, you know, a little bit of worry, worry about something or whatever, like work through it. Let the dog think that everything was a puzzle and he solved it. He's awesome.

And, you know, I, I want positive experiences and I specifically want positive experiences where the dog felt like he had some control in that environment. So one of the big things, and this is why I think, um, the socialization book and the, and the, and the fired up and frantic book are the same topic. Um, predictability and a sense of control are the two things that I tell my clients that we crave in order to feel safe. And, um, you know, I want to know what's coming and I want to have some say in what happens to me. And that is what socialization is. It's teaching the dog, Hey, this is how the world works. This is what you can expect to see. And this is what you do to manipulate your environment and get what you want. Manipulate's not a dirty word. You know, it's just agency. So, um, if you want people to pet you, this is what you do. If you want people to leave you alone, this is what you do and giving them that sense of control. Now there's nothing to fear. Hooray. We're done. So if people were to pick up the book, read through it and only walk away with kind of one thing or one message, what kind of key piece of information would you want them to learn? Give your dog a happy sense of control. I think that a good way. I don't know. I'm not trying to condense everything I just said. Um, I want to, I want a happy puppy feeling he has choice. Okay. And yeah. I normally end every episode with kind of the same three questions. So I wanted to give you a chance to answer the same questions. And I'm actually really excited to pose them to somebody who isn't just an FDSA person. So this would be fun. So to start out, what is the dog related accomplishment that you're proudest of? I might have to say that's actually the first book just because I've gotten so many, you know, emails and stories about how that was really helpful. And I've had people, not just to people and their dogs, which was the goal, but I've had people tell me that they used the techniques for themselves in their own personal human lives. And that was, that's really awesome. Um, so yeah, I mean that I feel, I feel some guilt because that doesn't even involve my own personal dog. Um, but there's, you know, my dogs probably don't need a specific achievement to feel happy. They're having awesome lives hanging out with me. So let's just pretend that they didn't hear that question. Um, yeah, I'm going to say, I'm going to say finding out that it was really helpful to people. But so, yeah, that's it. Okay. And then what is the best piece of training advice that you've ever heard? Oh, there's no way I can pick a single one.

Um, there are, can I, can I, can I choose two? Absolutely. Go for it. Okay. Um, Bob Bailey once said, uh, I'm sure he said it to many people, but he did say it to me also, you know, timing, criteria, rate of reinforcement. Those are your three things. If anything is going wrong, it's in one of those three. And I have never found that not to be true. So anytime I'm looking at a problem, it's going to be in my timing. It's going to be, I've set the wrong criteria or my rate of reinforcement is wrong. Want to repeat those one more time for people just so that they can really get them down? Sure. Because trust me, this is tattooed on the inside of my skull for easy reference. Exactly. Timing, criteria, rate of reinforcement. Any problem you have, it's going to be one of those or maybe two, you know, but it's, it's something in there. Don't, don't go looking for weird esoteric stuff. It's going to be timing, criteria, rate of reinforcement. And then the other one, and I have to credit Steve White for this one because I'm one of those people who can get, let's say focused. Focused sounds like a nice way to put this. You can get really intent on solving a particular problem or working a particular session. And Steve said, the one to quit is the one before you say just one more. And I was like, oh, that's me. Okay. I don't think you're alone there. I think that's a common problem. Yeah. We should have membership cards. Yeah. So my last question for you is who is someone else in the dog world that you look up to? There's a lot. And I'm really hesitant to pick one because that's like picking favorite dogs. But probably Hannah Brannigan. I would like to be Hannah when I grow up. That sounds like a good plan. Wouldn't we all? Yeah. Yeah. She's got a lot of good stuff going on and she's got a lot of fantastic techniques of info. So I'm going to say Hannah. Yeah. Excellent. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Laura. It was great to talk to you. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. I really enjoyed it. And thank you to all our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with Denise Fenzie to talk about the Team Program and her new book, which will be out later this month. Don't miss it. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy.

Audio editing provided by Chris Lang and transcription written by CLK Transcription Services. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. And happy training. Thank you.