E55: 낸시 터커(Nancy Tucker) - 탈민감화 및 역조건화

our dog to something they fear. And that's done in a very measured and systematic way. So we would start exposing them in a way that is completely non-threatening to them. It doesn't induce any fear at all. And we gradually work our way up from there. So that's desensitization. Now, counter conditioning involves pairing the scary thing with something that elicits a positive emotional response in the dog. So now we're working with building an association. And when that's done correctly, we can actually change the dog's emotional response in such a way that he's no longer fearful of the thing that he used to be afraid of. Typically, we're aiming for a neutral response, you know, that he's just not afraid of that thing anymore. But if we're lucky, we might even go as far as to create a positive emotional response, which means that he actually now feels good about the trigger that used to scare him. So we're talking about two separate and distinct methods here, desensitization and counter conditioning. But together, they complement each other. And they're very effective in treating fearful responses. So listeners of the podcast have definitely heard us talk before about the idea of creating a positive conditioned emotional response or a CER. So how is that concept kind of that idea of creating a positive CER different from what you're talking about with desensitization and counter conditioning? Yeah, CERs. I'm giggling because now every time I hear the term CER, all I can think about is ball feelings as they're known at FENZ. Thanks to, for those who don't know, that was coined on Hannah Brannigan's podcast on CERs. When we're talking about CERs, we're dealing with creative, creating a positive response to something that was previously neutral to the dog. So we're starting from scratch, basically, with a clean slate. When we're talking about desensitization and counter conditioning, we're not starting from scratch. The dog has already formed an association with something, and it's not a good one. So to give a sort of visual here, if creating a positive CER is like building a brand new house on a vacant lot with only brand new materials, desensitization and counter conditioning is like remodeling an old house. So you first need to tear down some things. And you're never quite sure what you're going to find when you start knocking down walls. Anybody who's remodeled a house, I think, can probably relate to that. So, you know, maybe you discover you can rebuild a whole new fabulous design on a really solid foundation.

Or maybe you'll need to make some adjustments and compromises along the way and build something wonderful, but not quite a brand new design. Does that make sense? Absolutely. I actually really love that analogy. That's fantastic. Kind of the idea of building from scratch versus remodeling. Yeah. And for listeners who aren't Hannah fans, Hannah's podcast is drinking from the toilet. And I will try to find the specific episode that Nancy's talking about to include a link to it in their show notes to kind of get back to our conversation. The general concept sounds simple enough, right? The idea that we want to build this positive association. But I know a lot of people really struggle to do this stuff well. So, what are some of the common pitfalls that lead folks to struggle and to be unsuccessful? You know, the reason that I wanted to teach this course in the first place is because of these common pitfalls. The course focuses on the skills and mechanics that we need to have in order to be successful at desensitization and counter conditioning. There are natural laws at play here that we just can't get around. Things need to happen in a very specific way in order to work. We can't cut corners and we can't speed up the process. And honestly, that's something that we're all guilty of when we're training our dogs. We can be really impatient and we try to skip a few steps to reach our goal just a little bit faster. And sometimes we're lucky and our dog figures things out on his own. So, hurrying up ends up being very reinforcing for us because, you know, it works. So, we do it over and over again and again. But when we're treating fears, that's just something we can't do. And understanding the process better and practicing our own mechanical skills is the best thing that we can do to finally be able to help our dogs overcome a fear. And it's actually a very rewarding process. Can you just share a little more about the class? How you approach teaching this to your human learners to help them kind of go through that process with their canine partners? Yeah. Well, at the start of the class, we'll all be on the same page. So, we'll all be practicing the same set of skills regardless of everyone's individual training experience. And you don't need training experience to do this class. And it's quite an eye-opener once you start to really break down your own mechanical skills. And naturally, this is a FENSI class. So, everything is done in the spirit of positivity and support. And there's no judgment. So, there will be nitpicking for sure. There'll be a lot of analyzing mechanics. But it's not about judgment.

It's about helping to perfect these skills. So, a lot of nitpicking, but in a very good way. And the student's skills will grow from this experience. And they'll be able to transfer these skills to their other training projects as well. So, at first, we'll be making sure everyone fully understands the process and practices their mechanical skills. And then we'll tackle some actual issues. And students will be able to work on changing their dog's fearful response to something. I know the other class you're teaching in April is on separation anxiety. So, how is separation anxiety different from what we're talking about here, from general desensitization and counter-conditioning? And how does that lead to how you treat it? Well, treating separation anxiety definitely involves desensitization and a lot of it, in fact. It's the meat of the program. Desensitization is the meat of any sort of program to treat separation anxiety. So, we very slowly and very gradually expose the dog to the thing that he fears the most, which is being alone or being separated from a particular family member. We make sure that the dog only experiences being alone for however amount of time that he can handle without experiencing fear or distress. And that can be a very time-consuming process. So, again, this is one of those things that we just, we can't rush and we can't cut corners. But along with some environmental management, desensitization is really the most effective way to treat separation anxiety. So, I think a lot of the time when people talk about separation anxiety, they're actually talking about, you know, a few different things. There's not necessarily one of those terms that has a hard and fast definition in common use. Do you mind sharing what separation anxiety is, kind of your definition, and, you know, what some of the symptoms are of true separation anxiety? Well, we tend to use separation anxiety as sort of an umbrella term for what are essentially a few different issues. So, most of the time, we're using it incorrectly. But it's widespread as a label for a common problem that, you know, it's just easier to use it. And I know that that's not correct. It's not scientifically correct. But sometimes, you know, when everyone misuses a term the same way, it's just as effective to use the term, if that makes any sense. So, in truth, what most people are dealing with when they say that their dog has separation anxiety is a dog who fears being alone. That is more common than actual separation anxiety. He fears isolation and he panics when he's left alone.

So, true separation anxiety is when a dog experiences distress if he's apart from a particular person or persons. A dog who suffers from fear of isolation will be fine as long as someone, anyone, is with him. A dog who suffers from separation anxiety will experience distress even if someone else is there with him, if that makes sense. So, some of the telltale signs that a dog is experiencing distress during your absence, if you're listening to this and you suspect that your dog may be suffering from this, some of these signs, and then what I'm about to mention is in no particular order of importance here. And the dog might display one or several of these behaviors and at different intensities. And before I go into describing what these symptoms might be, I want to point out, too, that the level of intensity of a symptom does not correlate to the severeness, the level of severeness of the fear. If a dog overtly displays symptoms, it doesn't mean that he is more fearful than the dog who cowers in the corner and does not move all day. That dog could be equally as in distress. So, anyway, some of the signs are vocalization, barking, whining. And actually, that's how quite a few people learn that there is a problem is when their neighbor complains about barking during their absence. Yeah, that's often the first clue. You know, they don't know until somebody complains about it. So, vocalization is one. Excessive drooling is another. You might come home and find a puddle of drool that some people might actually mistake for pee. But it's actually drool. There can be that much of it on the floor. Or the dog's bed is soaking wet. Anorexia is a very common one as well. The dog won't touch his food or a treat toy. And sometimes I discover a problem when a client has called me for another issue. And, you know, when I'm doing my history intake and I ask them how often the dog eats or when is he fed? And they say, well, we feed him in the morning before we go to work. But he doesn't touch that. He's not hungry in the morning. He doesn't eat till we get home. And I find out that when they get home, then the dog devours his food. So, that's a sign to me if the dog hasn't touched his food all day from the moment that they leave that there may be an issue there. You know, that he might not appreciate being alone and there could be a problem there. So, anorexia. You know, some obvious signs that the dog has scratched or chewed an area, especially near an exit. You know, near the door where the door that the owner uses to leave the house.

Peeing and defecating, usually a lot of it during their absence, even just a short absence. And self-mutilation, you know, signs of excessive licking or chewing at the paws. And, you know, if you're not sure what your dog might be doing when you're not home, set up a camera and video him or watch a live feed. There's lots of apps now that we can use to keep an eye on our dog. So, some dogs might pace, you know, while you're getting ready to leave and they're pacing and then they continue for another five minutes after you're gone. But then they settle down quickly and they go to sleep without a problem. Or on the other hand, some dogs might appear perfectly chill for a few minutes after you leave and then they begin to panic. So, you can't know unless you record it or watch a live feed. Right. Right. And technology is our friend, for sure. We can use it. For sure. So, do we know what actually causes separation anxiety? I mean, it seems like some dogs struggle with it and others are just never phased at all. Is there a reason? Yeah, that's a really, really good question. And I'll start by talking about what doesn't cause separation anxiety. Owners. Owners' behavior does not cause their dog to develop separation anxiety. So, if you have a dog who panics when left alone, it is not your fault. It's not because of something that you did. And it's amazing how many people feel or are told that it's because of something that they did. It's not because you've spoiled him. In fact, if you have a puppy, helping him feel secure by responding to his needs will go farther towards building a confident adult dog than if you try to use tough love by letting him cry it out at night. Don't be afraid to shower your puppy with attention and to provide that sense of security. You do need to teach your young dog that being alone is nothing to be afraid of, but you can do that systematically. Back to causes. For starters, dogs who suffer from this problem, they tend to already be predisposed to having anxiety issues. So, just like people, some of us might be more genetically predisposed to experience mental health issues. And this is true for dogs as well. And it's worth mentioning that there is correlation between a few things and separation anxiety. But it can't be said for sure that these things actually cause it. For example, dogs who are surrendered to a shelter might display some isolation distress once they're adopted into a new home. And actually, that's pretty common. But it's possible that these dogs had this issue in their previous homes.

And maybe that's the reason that some of them were surrendered in the first place. And it's not always easy to tell. So, it's not always accurate to say that a dog develops a fear of isolation because he was surrendered to a shelter or abandoned somewhere. Another possible correlation is dogs who are sick as very, very young puppies might develop separation anxiety as adults. And again, there's correlation there, but nothing to say that this is a cause. What I see most commonly is after a major change in a dog's life, like a move or a major disruption, you know, a divorce or a huge disruption in the dog's routine or schedule, that can lead to this type of problem. But again, in most cases, we're talking about a dog who is already predisposed to experiencing anxiety. So, it's not ultimately because you moved into a new house that you caused your dog to develop this problem. Rather, the move may have triggered an anxiety disorder that was already there, but hadn't yet manifested into a behavior issue, if that makes sense. Absolutely. That's really interesting. I hadn't realized there were, you know, kind of those specific things that were correlated with the issue. That's news to me. So, it's interesting. I know you're not a vet, but I know that kind of on the syllabus or in the description you mentioned that you do touch on meds in the class. And I was curious if you'd talk about that a little bit. So, how do you determine if a student should talk to their vet about their options? You know, I really respect my limitations as a trainer and a behavior consultant. And I avoid talking about meds except to say that everyone should do their own research and find out what's available to you to help your dog deal with an anxiety issue. And there are quite a few options out there. So, if your dog is at risk of hurting himself, you know, self-mutilation or a dog who is scratching or throwing himself through glass, which I experienced that myself. A dog who is simply overwhelmed with fear or anxiety in general, I strongly urge you to look into medication to help him out. And I will say this much. Medication can be a huge help. It can create a sense of calm in a dog so that he's able to actually learn the new behaviors that you want to teach him. You know, it puts him in a better state of mind to learn and for behavior modification to take place. So, a lot of the antidepressants and anti-anxiety meds out there, they will allow for learning to take place. So, in other words, they aren't strictly a sedative that can affect short-term memory.

So, that would be an important thing to discuss with the vet, that, you know, if you're looking for medication to help your dog deal with anxiety or immense fear, you want to use a medication that will allow him to learn. So, the whole point of using medication to treat separation anxiety is to be able to work through a desensitization program so that the dog can eventually be comfortable alone at home. Right. Right. So, I know you mentioned in the class description that when done right, gold videos in this class might be sort of boring, I think is the word you use. So, why is that? This is true. This is very true. There isn't a whole lot of action going on when you're teaching a dog to remain calm. So, videos are good. And I can still help guide students by watching what's happening in a video. You know, I can dissect the dog's behavior and body language and I can make recommendations based on the layout of the home because, you know, we talk a lot about finding that home alone space. And sometimes it's just good to have a second set of eyes to look at the layout and see what might work. Or even based on the student's own movements. So, video is good. And I might see something in the environment that the student has missed. You know, sometimes you're just so familiar with something that even when it's right in front of you, you don't see it. But the bottom line is that we are literally aiming for the dog to look bored and chillaxed. So, gold students don't have to post video, actually. But that's okay. Because we tend to do a lot of problem solving and creative planning and troubleshooting on the forums through discussion. So, during this class, the discussion boards are really important. If you want to follow a case, follow the discussion. Because even without a video, there is a lot of back and forth and a lot of troubleshooting going on. And gold students, the gold level students, they're still getting a personal coach as they work through this. And because every single case is completely different, all students get to follow and learn from each individual scenario, which is great. And in the last couple of sessions, we had a lot of trainers join. So, I think that they benefited from seeing the different types of cases. And I mean, there's certainly nothing, you know, to sneeze at there about taking a gold spot just because, you know, videos don't play a big role. I mean, in an area like this where there's so often like those feelings of, oh, my God, am I doing it wrong? Or, oh, my God, my dog's panicking. Like having somebody to hold your hand and say, no, actually, it's okay.

Like, okay, let's take a step back. Let's do it this way. That can be a huge, huge help. Absolutely. It's great to have a second set of eyes with a problem like this, for sure. So, I wanted to ask about common misconceptions or places where students often go wrong when it comes to working on this kind of thing, separation anxiety, that is. Can you share any tips or suggestions? Yep. I think that we tend to circle back to the most common problem of all when treating a behavior issue that's based on an emotion like fear. And I mentioned it earlier. We move too fast. We try to rush things. And sometimes I get the feeling that the students somehow feel bad that they don't have more to show, that they feel like they need to push it along in order to look like they're progressing. But that's okay because I know that behavior change takes time. And I am far more giddy about seeing a student take their time and really progress at the dog's speed, whatever that may be for that dog. So, when I see that, I know that the student is on the right track and they'll get there eventually. So, again, the common problem is just moving too fast. So, students are trying to decide whether either of these classes is appropriate for their dog. I wanted to ask you of any advice. How can they decide if their dog's a good candidate? Yeah. And, you know, now might be a good time for me to mention that the desensitization and counter conditioning class, it's not for those dogs who might display aggression towards the thing that they fear. For example, if a dog might bite a visitor entering his home because he was afraid of strangers, this class is not the place for that kind of issue. And I'll tell you, that's because I'd much rather deal with aggression in person. Other than that, what I'd like to see are students working on minor issues throughout the term, throughout the session. Because, you know, and I'll bet almost everyone can name at least one or two things their dog is afraid of. Students might think that their dog doesn't like something because he avoids it. But really, their dog might be afraid of that thing. And this class would be a perfect opportunity to work on that. They'll get to practice their training mechanics on a minor issue, like a dog avoiding the vacuum cleaner, for example, or getting brushed or getting their nails clipped. Then they'd be in a better position to handle a bigger issue later on, like aggression behaviors, aggressive behaviors that are fear-based, for example.

Another important point about the desensitization and counter conditioning class is that whatever trigger the students choose, they need to make sure that they have complete control over their dog's access to that trigger while they work on it. So, in other words, if you plan to help your dog overcome his fear of the sound of kids playing and screaming on the street, you need to make sure you can control when and how your dog hears that sound. And you can see how that can be really, really difficult. But we can get, yeah, we can't control when the kids are going to be out playing, but we can maybe try to control the dog's access to that, you know, to manage the environment or something creatively so that he doesn't, he's not exposed to that. And that's just an example. The point that I'm trying to make is that we need to have complete control over that stimulus in order to work through the program. Because the only way that desensitization and counter conditioning will work is if we're able to exercise that kind of control over the stimulus. As for the home alone class, you don't actually need to have a dog with a separation anxiety issue to take the class. Like I mentioned before, you know, over the last couple of sessions, we had lots of trainers take the class who wanted to learn more about helping their clients. And it's also a good match for people with puppies who want to teach their dog to be alone in a structured way. And in fact, a lot of the lecture videos are of my own dog, Bennegan, when he was just a puppy learning to be home alone. So I did just want to kind of dive in a little deeper there, if you don't mind, and ask if there are any examples that come to mind of students with problems that would be a particularly good fit for the desensitization and counter conditioning class. Are there particular problems that you're kind of hoping to get or that you think, you know, might be particularly well suited for that kind of class? Well, like I said, the two main criteria are that it is not an aggression issue in that there is no danger that the dog will bite. So a dog who is extremely, I don't like to use the term reactive because it doesn't really describe what's happening, but a dog who might behave aggressively or lunge and bark at the sight of another dog, this is not a good class for that. And anyway, I believe that Amy Cook has a good class for that. But this is not a good class for that because I don't want to be dealing, I personally don't want to be dealing with aggression,

except maybe resource guarding if a dog is displaying object guarding and does not have a bite history. That is something that we might be able to handle. But again, I would rather speak with the student first, have them communicate with me to see exactly what's happening, because that might not be fear based. And when we're talking about desensitization and counter conditioning, I think that what we're aiming for here is to help a dog overcome a fear. So no outright aggression and to have control over the stimulus. That is the one thing that is an absolute must. So to answer your question, no. I mean, there is no specific thing that's carte blanche. And if students are unsure, they can just communicate with me and we can figure it out together. Excellent. I know that your class descriptions mentioned something about CEUs. So do you mind sharing with listeners? And I'm sure there's some ears that just perked up there who may be trainers trying to get those continuing education credits. Kind of what the deal is there? Well, both classes are approved for 21 CEUs for training for those who are certified with a CCPDT. And I specified for training because with the CCPDT, the Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers, there are training credits and there are behavior credits. These are 21 training CEUs for each class. So students can register at any level, whether it's gold, silver or bronze. And throughout the term, they'll need to collect some code words that'll be peppered throughout the lectures and the gold discussion forums. So they have to follow that pay close attention to the course as it progresses, the lectures and discussion forums. And hey, 21 CEUs is almost two thirds of a full recertification. So that's not a bad deal. If you take both classes, you get 42 CEUs right there. That's awesome. That's really a fantastic opportunity for those people who are out there trying to get those. So thanks so much for coming back on the podcast, Nancy. It was great to chat. Thanks for having me, Melissa. Always a pleasure. Absolutely. And thank you to all of our wonderful listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with Julie Daniels to discuss confidence building through shaping. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy.

Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Thank you.