E50: 줄리 플래너리(Julie Flanery) - "퍼피 클래스에서 절대 배우지 못하는 것들"

anticipating what the dog will do so that your click is well timed. So there's a tendency to wait until you actually see it. And then in that moment, we have to process that information before we can act on it, actually click it. While this happens really quickly in the brain, there's still some latency and this can actually result in late clicks. So you're giving the dog information that isn't actually what you want to convey. So first, having a picture in your head of, I guess, the path the dog is likely to take in shaping that behavior. So let's say you're shaping going under a chair. You can picture the dog's most likely path from where he's starting, as well as from where your reward is placed and have a sense ahead of time of where your click points will be. You want to anticipate those click points. You at least want to have the precursor to your click points in mind and what they'll look like. This way, you're going to be able to anticipate the dog's next likely action. And that's really imperative to good click timing. In a lot of respects, this also relates to raising criteria, which is another place that handlers tend to have a lot of difficulty. And they're often getting stuck by clicking the same criteria for longer than is actually beneficial. So anyway, so you can often get stuck by clicking that same criteria for longer than we want, longer than is beneficial. So having that picture ahead of time can actually help the handler move forward in their criteria shifts as well. You mentioned going under a chair example. So if you know you're going to have the dog go under the chair, what is it that you're looking for? That first drop of the head, the drop of the shoulders? Am I on the right track? Right. Well, so you might be, depending on where the dog is starting, you might just be looking for looking at the chair. That might be your first click point. And certainly before the dog can move towards the chair, he's going to look at it. Before the dog can go under it, he's going to move towards it. But before he can move towards it, he needs to look at it. So you're kind of looking at that progression in the behavior to determine where your click points are going to be so you can anticipate those things. So if you put your chair out and then you go stand next to the dog and wait for something, well, you've probably already missed that first click. So setting that chair out, the dog is likely to look at it. That would be your first click. And then moving towards it, we can anticipate he's going to take a step towards the chair if he has any experience interacting with props.

So we're anticipating that. We're looking for it to happen. And we're trying to time our click and market just as he's doing that. If we wait until he actually does it, we're probably going to be late in our timing. Talking about timing, I know that one of the things you kind of stress in your shaping class is the importance of good handler mechanics. I wanted to get into that a little bit. Can you share what you mean by that and how it's supposed to work? You know, maybe where folks tend to go wrong when it comes to mechanics. Sure. I think that we make it much harder on our dogs to shape than it needs to be sometimes. The dog needs to concentrate on the task, the task of figuring out how do I earn reinforcement? Remember, the dog doesn't know we're working towards something specific. He doesn't know there is an end behavior goal. We know that, but he doesn't. He only knows that if he does certain things, he earns rewards. But I do believe that experienced shaping dogs do learn there is an end result and that they are working toward completion. They learn there is a process being followed and can anticipate the next steps. What we sometimes call learning to learn. They can anticipate within the process once we have allowed them to experience it enough, which I believe is why some dogs seem to be better at getting behaviors on verbal cue, while other dogs seem to struggle with that a bit. So the more verbal cues the dog learns, the quicker he learns the next one. So there's an understanding of the process, what comes next and the understanding from experience. The verbal cues have meaning and value. In terms of clean training, so clean training is really about creating the best environment for the dog to concentrate on the task and not be distracted from that. So in shaping, the primary information we want to provide to the dog is the marker and subsequent reinforcement. This is really all he needs within the shaping process in order to progress toward the handler's end goal. Yet we're constantly hindering their ability to do so in a variety of ways. So hovering over the bait bag, hands in pockets, reaching for food or having food in our hands all indicate reward is imminent. The only thing that should indicate that reward is imminent is the sound of our marker. Anything else is overshadowing and diminishing the meaning and value of that marker, the click. That's our most powerful communication tool while shaping. And yet we're constantly putting in these extraneous movements or chattering to our dogs. And all of this, if done while shaping, can draw their attention away from the task.

So think about if you're if you're concentrating on a crossword puzzle and someone keeps interrupting you to ask a question. It's going to take longer to complete your puzzle as there's all this extraneous stimulus that you keep having to deal with. So in our in our attempts to help our dog getting the treat out faster, saying encouraging things, moving in a way that we think will prompt the dog. He's having to filter through what is relevant and what is not. And in our efforts to help, we're actually pulling the dog off task. So let them work. Let your job is to provide relevant information and not to cloud the learning process by doing things that distract the dog from from working towards that task. Does that make sense? Absolutely. Sometimes it just helps to stop and think about, OK, this is the process I'm actually following. It's a click and a pause and then reach for the treat. You know, kind of that piece. Right. In terms of mechanical skills, those are the things we're talking about. We're talking about what is the handler doing with their body? Is their body still and quiet? Is are they allowing the dog to focus on what's important or are they taking the dog's focus away from that because there's something going on with the handler that isn't really adding to the learning process and it's actually detracting from it? So even knowing all that, people tend to get frustrated when they're trying shaping, especially if they haven't done a lot of it. Right. Because they wind up with a dog that is one of two things. They wind up with a dog that stands or sits there and kind of stares at them, especially if they've done a lot of focus work. Or they get a dog that is throwing out behavior so fast that they're having trouble targeting one specific thing or getting kind of motion towards the behavior that they're looking for. Any tips for folks struggling with those issues? I don't know if there's some generic tips that apply to both, but but maybe you could talk to that a little bit. That can be a huge deterrent and pretty frustrating to someone that's just starting out in shaping. And I know many, many trainers who gave up or basically said it doesn't work. It's not that the process and protocol don't work. It's that they they need to learn how to apply it effectively. So these are two separate issues. The dog that stands still and does nothing and the dog that just starts frantically throwing behaviors at you. But in general, I'd say they have the same solution. And it's a pretty easy mantra to remember. Click for anything but.

So anything but standing still and staring earns a click, even if you have to toss a cookie to start them moving and give you an opportunity to click anything but standing still. A lot can happen even in a dog that's standing still. But for a lot of new shapers, the two legged kind, it's larger movements are going to be easier for them to see. So getting the dog moving and clicking anything but standing still will help. For those dogs that are frantically throwing things at you, you want to click way early before they have an opportunity to start throwing behaviors out. You want to be ready before you get the dog out. So a lot of dogs, we give these these cues that we're about to start shaping. We pick up our clicker. We put the bait bag on or we put our hand on our pocket. We go to a certain place. And our dog, before we even in our minds are starting to train, are already starting to throw behaviors out at us. All of those those, quote, pre-cues that we're giving are actually cues to the dog to offer. So be ready before you get the dog out. The worst thing you can do with with both these kinds of dogs is look at them expectantly like, OK, do something or do something else. Sometimes we have to create those first few clicks to get the dog on the right path. So setting up our environment or a session to prevent both of those things by creating some type of an effective antecedent. So if a dog is constantly throwing things at me, then I might use a prop to direct his activity or I might click upon coming out of the crate and each step forward toward where we want to train. Often dogs that throw behaviors just aren't being given enough information of what to do. And so they're giving you everything they can think of in hopes that one of those will get clicked. So rather than shaping towards something, the handler is waiting for it to occur. I I want you to click again. It's click anything. But so if you can take that moment of behavior, a single step, a single look coming out of the crate and click that that can start to define for the dog that the path you're going to lead them on to. It can tell them, oh, I don't have to keep throwing all of this stuff because she's already clicking something. Now, what did she click so that I can repeat it? The other thing that often happens with these dogs that tend to throw things or push farther in the in the criteria than, you know, we want them to be is often we aren't willing to drop back in the criteria to move forward again.

When it when the movement gets out of hand and you feel like the dog is pushing or you're pushing or you're rushing, it's OK to just stop, breathe, go back earlier in the criteria. Click something way less than what you've been clicking and then build it gradually back up again. So, again, I think the answer is the same for for both of those situations. Click anything but. Excellent. I like that. It's nice, easy, nice, short and easy to remember. So. So this seems like a good point to kind of dig in more a little bit on criteria. You're talking a little bit there about thinking about your criteria maybe a little differently than most people do. Are there general guidelines for how fast to raise criteria? And I know you talked a little bit about going backwards in your criteria. Maybe when is it a good idea to do that? For me, and I think most of the FENSE instructors, we all have a pretty common idea about raising or lowering criteria. And that is when it's predictable. When you can predict, they're going to give you the exact same criteria again. And I like to include the word confidence. So when it's confident and predictable, then increase criteria. And if you had two incorrect responses in a row, then it's time to lower criteria. For my dog, oftentimes she's ready to raise criteria and looks confident. And for me, it's predictable in her within three repetitions. I can tell whether it's time for me to raise criteria, stay where I'm at, or lower criteria. So a response might be predictable, but maybe I'm not seeing quite the confidence I want to see. And so I might hold off another repetition or two to ensure that she really has some good understanding of that. But certainly if I see two incorrect responses in a row, then I'm going to lower criteria. Now, that precludes that you know where your criteria shifts are. So because when I say incorrect responses, you have to know what that is and what that isn't. Let's say I'm training a bow. And I am watching for the head and shoulder lowering. And she's moving in a progression forward. So I'm clicking the head drop, click the head drop again. Then she lowers slightly lower. I click that and I'm anticipating what her next movement is so that I can actually see and anticipate through my click when she will do that. So let's say for shaping an incorrect response might be either less than what I previously clicked or no response whatsoever. So she's predictably dropping her head and starting to lower her chest. But maybe her elbows aren't on the ground yet. And she's done that same thing three times in a row.

So then I'm not going to click that anymore. I'm going to wait. And hopefully she'll give me a little bit more based on the fact that I've clicked this previously. She knows she's on the right track. And she'll be like, hey, didn't you see this? And give me a little bit more. And I can click that. OK, so it was predictable that she was going to drop her chest a little bit and her head is lowering. I don't want to keep clicking that because I'm going to get stuck there because she's going to think, oh, this is right. I think I'll keep doing this. If she is at that point, say, and the next offering, the next rep, her head isn't quite as low. OK, so I don't click that and she just stands up. So she offers again and she still doesn't get as low as the previous one. And she just stands up. Then I'm going to say, OK, she doesn't have clear enough understanding of what the next step is. So I want to build confidence in the previous. So in that case, I'm going to lower my criteria maybe for a couple more reps and then start to build back up again. Does that make sense? Absolutely. And that was a great example because it really kind of walked us through, you know, kind of thinking through the different steps and the bits and pieces there. Yeah. And hopefully you can actually visualize that a little bit so that you can actually see and be able to anticipate what that next step is. We all know what it looks like for a dog to bow and bring his chest and elbows down to the ground. And you can map that out in your head and be able to anticipate what comes next. And if what you expect to come next isn't happening, you're stagnated or you're getting lesser responses, then that's showing that the dog doesn't understand what that forward progression is next. So you said something recently, and I can't remember if I originally heard it in a webinar or if it's from class, but you're talking about leaps of learning and how to respond if while shaping the dog suddenly makes a big leap in the right direction. Right. So maybe we're trying for four paws in a platform. They've been struggling to get to and suddenly they step on it with all four paws. Obviously, you click it. Right. Do you mind just kind of sharing it here? Because I thought it was really, really interesting and I hadn't heard that before. Yeah, I don't know if I will say exactly what you remember, but I understand what you're asking. And it did come up recently in the class, the shaping class I'm teaching that you are a student of and you're doing very well, by the way. Thank you. So there are times when it seems like our dogs get it right away.

Like all of a sudden what you just described, they were struggling with two and all of a sudden there's four. And I'm like, yay. That doesn't mean that you're going to hold out for four feet on the platform now. One correct response doesn't indicate understanding. And yet sometimes we forge ahead as if it does. I want to see not only predictable responses, I want to see confident, predictable responses. So that leap up of four feet on the platform might have looked confident, but we don't really know if it's predictable until we get a few reps. So I want to see confident, predictable responses before I increase criteria, even if it appears that they've got it. Now, having said that, I don't want to stay stuck at the same criterion too long. So each handler has to kind of determine what that looks like in their dog. So for me, I can recognize confidence in my own dog, in Kashi. And for her, if she provides the same response three to four times in a row, that's predictable. And I'm going to go ahead and raise criteria there. If I made an error in judgment, I can always drop back down. But my goal is still going to be always forward progression. I don't want to stay stuck in any single criterion for too long. And that might be different for each dog. But consider your definition of predictable. For me, again, if she does it three or four times in a row and she looks confident in her actions, I can predict that she'll do it that fourth time or that fifth time. If I can predict it, I don't want to stay there. Kathy Sadeo talked about criteria shifts in one of her lectures in relation to a recording being played on a record player. And how the needle can get stuck in a groove and not advance so the record keeps skipping over the same place in the music. Well, if we click the same criteria for too many reps, the dog will get stuck in that groove. And you risk some increased frustration in working to get out of that groove. Sometimes lowering criteria is the way out. Sometimes withholding the click is the way out. Either way, you need to get out of that groove. Frustration on both the dog and the handler's part. Exactly. Exactly. And it's kind of like that dog that stands still and does nothing. You need to get out of that groove. What I talked about earlier about having a picture in your mind of the likely path the dog will take, that will help you not get stuck. And I think sometimes people get stuck because they just don't know what to click next.

So having a picture in your head, thinking ahead of time, what is this process going to look like will help you anticipate that and will help you move forward in the process to progress in the process and not get stuck at any one point. So what about duration? First of all, is it possible to actually shape duration? And then if so, how is shaping duration kind of different than shaping more active behaviors? Wow. You know, that's a really interesting question. And it's interesting because of the way you framed it. You said, is it actually possible to shape duration? And that surprised me because, yes, it's totally possible to shape duration. And I think really, in general, all duration is shaped in that we are marking and rewarding small increments toward that end behavior, towards that extended duration of behavior. So shaping duration is like shaping any other skill, though your increments need to be sliced very thin in order to not get some other behavior in there. So, you know, you're still withholding the click for a little more. And for most dogs, withholding the click means do something else or push ahead. Duration needs to be more finely sliced so that we don't get some of that junk behavior in there. But that little bit, little generally less than what you might hold out for in a moving behavior. So you're not waiting long chunks of time. Two, we have to measure what we have to measure can be more difficult. So it's not as difficult to measure movement as there is time and space. You can see a dog's action and how it carries him forward. So clicking movement, marking movement in increments is not too difficult for the observer. In building duration, there's only time. There's no space. And we aren't very good at keeping track of time. So, you know, if I paused here, then I asked three different people how many seconds did I pause, they would all have a different answer. So I often either count in my head or out loud to measure the advancement of my duration criteria. In appropriate criteria shifts for duration, especially since they should be sliced thin, we often aren't very consistent in our forward progression of time. And that can lead to inconsistency and a lack of understanding in the dog. And I think that the reason people have difficulty shaping duration is because they aren't slicing those increments of time small enough. They're thinking of it like they would shape movement and larger pieces of behavior. And in shaping duration, you can't do that because the dog is going to pull out. Let's say, let's take, for example, a sustained nose target.

OK, so we want the dog to hold that nose target for let's say our goal is three seconds, four seconds, three seconds. And so initially we click the act of pressing the nose and we click immediately. That tells the dog what the intended behavior is to which we're going to now start to attach duration. Once the dog presses the nose and expects a click and it doesn't come, he's likely to pull off. OK, which is not going to get clicked either. Often when we withhold a click, which is what just happened here on the next rep, we will see a slightly higher energy behavior, a little bit more, a little bit stronger. Again, it's like that. Hey, didn't you see this? Look, I'm going to do it a little bit more so you can see it. And so in that moment of that second offering after the withheld click, you're likely to see a little more pressure and more pressure. And I know it's hard to see, but and this is why hand touches are a good thing for this, because you'll feel that pressure. And in that moment of more pressure, that takes a slightly bit more longer amount of time. The time it takes for a dog to just touch something and the time it takes a dog to touch something and put a little pressure is slightly longer. And that's what you're clicking. OK, that pressure is also a criteria of of sustained nose target. Right. Because they're going to have to put a little pressure there in order to keep their nose there. So. So that that slice right there is super thin. And and once the dog pushes on again, you may have to go through a couple of clicks of he pushes or I'm sorry, he touches. It's not sustained even for a fraction of a second. You wait. That second one is sustained a fraction of a second. You click. Then you can start to extend by not seconds, but almost fractions of seconds. So you're not counting one one thousand. You're counting one click one to click. One to click. And if the dog pulls off, there's no click. So so the dog is starting to understand through both the withheld click for when he comes off and the click for continued. Small slivers of duration. That by keeping the nose to the hand or the wall or wherever you want the target, that's what he's building toward. But as soon as you start to increase that too far, too fast, you're going to get frustration. You're going to get poking at the wall, which is not what you want. And so the key to duration to shaping duration is really making sure that, number one, you are slicing those increments very small and that those increments are very consistent, that you're not going all over the place with your duration.

And that's where the counting or doing something that helps you measure that passing of time so that you have appropriate clicks will help. And, yeah, it is. I'm not going to deny that it's a harder concept for some people to get or it's a harder skill for some people to get. But if you are if you understand the concept of shaping and progressing through a behavior in small increments, it's just a matter of how finally you slice it for duration. That's all. It's really interesting because, I mean, typically you think of it's always easier to teach a dog to do something than an absence of a behavior. Right. Correct. But you have to think of duration as a behavior. Does that make sense? So duration isn't the absence of a behavior. It's the continuation of a behavior. It's the absence. It's the absence of movement. And we've always been taught click for movement, feed for position. Still a very, very good rule. But in duration, it seems as if it's the absence of behavior when in actuality it's the extension of a behavior. So that gives me a lot to think on. Yeah. I'm sure. Well, hopefully it gives a lot. Yeah. For everybody to think on. But I want to shift gears a little bit and talk more about training in general. I think you gave a great webinar last year on verbal cues. And it's part of what kind of inspired the topic for today, the idea of kind of what you didn't learn in puppy class. Right. I feel like the concept of when to add a cue and how to go about it sometimes gets glossed over for a number of reasons, obviously, when dog owners are first learning to train. So when do you typically add a cue to behavior and how do you go about it? So for me, something that I touched on earlier, I like the dog to have confident, predictable, correct responses that include the majority, if not all of my criteria for that behavior. And I say majority because there are some times or some things that I can add later. And the cue actually helps me draw that base behavior out of the dog. So so, for example, duration or distance may be something I don't have yet, but we'll go ahead and put it on cue and build those in later. The behavior may or may not be fully generalized when I put it on cue, depending on the behavior. I may use cue discrimination as part of my generalization process. So so for me, the the criteria, the majority of the criteria needs to be predictable and confident. And I'm certain that I'm going to get correct responses. As soon as I have that, I will start the process of putting the behavior on cue. Now, having said that, that will fluctuate.

So I might have predictable, confident, correct responses in a session in the morning. And so partway through that session, I start to add the cue. But maybe that afternoon or the next day when I start my session, I'm not seeing the same confidence or the same predictability. And in that case, I'm not going to continue to use the cue or add the cue in that session. So there's a there's kind of an ebb of flow to our dog's ability to maintain predictability when they're first learning behaviors. It kind of has to do with that leap of learning we were talking about earlier, about not assuming that because the dog does it correct once that they have understanding. And it's the same with adding the cue. I do want to take advantage of my dog's predictable responses in any given session. Those predictable responses that, again, that are confident and maintain and contain a majority of my criteria. But just because I've started putting the behavior on cue doesn't mean that that next session or that next location that I might work the behavior that my dog is ready then to put it on cue. It's kind of like Denise's, you know, work the dog in front of you. That dog changes from session to session. And so my training strategies have to change session to session, depending on what he's giving me at the start of that session. So, again, predictable. I'm going to insert the cue. Not predictable. I'm going to hold off a little bit. And that may all very well be with the exact same behavior over different sessions. I think you are right in using the term glossed over. It's a part of the process that few spend very much time planning or implementing. It's either almost like an afterthought. Oh, yeah. Now I need to put the cue on. Or they make the assumption that if they just start using the cue while training, the dog will get it somehow. So that process they apply is often random and very inefficient. Overlapping the behavior in the cue is a really common thing that I see. Cue should always precede behaviors with nothing in between, no junk behavior in between the cue and the behavior you want it to have meaning for. In putting behaviors on cue or transferring the cue, you really need to set that up. So if you're shaping, you first need a predictable, correct response. You're noticing a theme here, Melissa, for predictable, correct response with confidence. You know, that's really key to a dog's understanding. If the response is confident and correct and predictable, then we can start to assume some understanding. Until that happens, though, we're still working towards that.

So once you have that, you insert your cue just prior to the dog either offering the behavior or the behavior being prompted. So, for example, we might have used a hand signal. We might not be shaping. We might have used a hand signal. Or we might be prompting the dog in some other way, a visual cue. Or a prop might prompt the dog to interact with it. So just before, the key phrase is just prior to the dog offering the behavior or performing the behavior, that's when you insert the cue. Not as the dog is doing the behavior. Cues always precede behavior. That's why they're called antecedents. So it's that old A, B, C. The cue is the antecedent, the behavior, and then the consequence. So when putting a cue to shape behavior, where people tend to shoot themselves in the foot, is continuing to reward offered behavior. So they might have started to put the behavior on cue. Great. The dog is predictable. The dog is consistent. You're doing the correct thing by inserting the cue before the behavior. But unfortunately, you might be continuing to reward that offered behavior. So once you start to put the behavior on cue, execution on cue is the only thing that gets rewarded. Otherwise, there's no value in the cue to the dog. If he can offer it and get rewarded, or if he can get rewarded for doing it on cue, you're not going to get stimulus control. Because there's no value in the cue. Now, there's a caveat to that. Of course. And actually, you'll learn about it next week in class. But there are times when you have a behavior that's on cue, and you're going to want to remove the cue and encourage the dog to offer it again. So that you can either fix or improve on the behavior. Maybe something's gone a little bit wrong, or you're not getting the criteria you used to have with it. It's kind of gone a bit south. Then you want to remove that cue so that you can refine or improve the behavior and then put that cue back on. So that's kind of a little more advanced process that is an important process, too. Cues are cool. To me, putting the behavior on cue is the most important part of training the behavior. If you ever want to be able to draw it out of your dog. You know, if you want the dog to respond reliably, then you have to really apply that process of putting it on cue very succinctly and very deliberately and not in a random fashion. We don't need cues. It's really interesting. I mean, we don't need cues if we don't care when the dog performs a behavior. But we do care. I mean, that's why we train.

So cues should be a priority and understanding how to put behaviors on cue should be a priority in any handler's learning. I think a lot of people struggle with that concept, right? The idea of getting something on stimulus control, getting a behavior to the point where it is reliable, but also only actually happens when cued. Right. Right. And it's because it's exactly the reason is exactly that, because we have a tendency to still click off the behavior when it's offered. We love it. We like it. It's cute. I mean, oh, look at you. You did it again. How great. And we have been patterned to click that offered behavior. We have to get ourselves out of that pattern. The rule is once you start putting the behavior on cue, you only click it when you cue it. That's what builds stimulus control. So let's say that you like to train and you often get behaviors to that point where they're reliable enough for a cue. Is there any downside to having a bunch of half trained behaviors that you never actually attach a cue to? Huh. Well, so that depends a little on your goals. So if your goal is to compete and you need those behaviors, well, that's a really obvious detriment. But even more than that, in leaving behaviors, what we're calling half trained, you're denying your dog the opportunity and the experience to learn how to learn. How to learn a behavior to completion and how to understand when you want him to perform that said behavior. So like most trainers, I love the acquisition stage. I love shaping. I love developing a behavior. But I also need my dog to understand the whole process if I ever want those behaviors to be of any use to me. I need my dog to learn how the process of adding a cue works so that he can also anticipate what comes next in the process. The more experience I give him at learning the whole process, complete through generalization, adding the cue and fluency, the faster and easier it is to train the next behavior. Because it becomes something we are both working through the pieces to completion. The dog can help drive the process forward. And that not only builds stronger behaviors, that builds faster behaviors, and that builds truly greater teamwork in my mind. Because you both are on the same path. You both have the same type of goal. But if we have a lot of half trained behaviors, and only some of our behaviors are trained through completion, the dog just doesn't have enough experience to understand the full process and help drive that process to completion. So little birdie told me that maybe you're working on a class on that topic.

Yeah, so I was asking the other instructors if they thought a class on finishing up all those half trained behaviors would be a good idea, and they all jumped on it. So I'm planning to call it mission accomplished. And in effect, you'll be providing your dog lots of opportunity and experience at learning how to learn. And I think for some, the reason that they haven't finished these behaviors is because they and their dog just need more experience at how to do it effectively and efficiently. People can get stuck in the process just like dogs. And oftentimes, that's one reason why we have those half trained behaviors. Maybe we don't know what we should do next, how to get it on cue, how to generalize it, all of those things that are involved in having a completed, reliable behavior. So hopefully, that class will help some people. I think it'll be a really fun class. And I'm just starting to develop it. But you've given me a lot of ideas in this podcast now that I can include in there. So that's super. Awesome. Do you have any idea yet when it's going to show up on the schedule? Oh, my gosh. I have no idea. I'm just trying to get through this session. But I am keeping some notes and, you know, have some ideas floating around my brain. And the schedule is a little bit set. But every now and then, I'll add in a class if it's ready to go. So hopefully, within the next few sessions, it'll be up on the schedule. Awesome. I'm looking forward to it. I will tell you that. Good. I think the other topic that gets overlooked, for lack of a better word, in pet training classes, where most of us start out, is fading treats from the training picture. So how to start reducing reinforcement. At what point in the process do you feel like a behavior is well enough established that you can start that process? And how do you usually tend to go about that? Right. So first thing, something you said is I don't want the behavior well established before I take food out of my hand. That's personally for me. So my rule of thumb for luring and removing the food from my hand is really first session, three to five reps, then present the hand cue. It needs to look exactly like my active lure. And I use that as a test. In general, especially dogs that have gone through this process, most dogs can do at least one correct response or partial response without the food in your hand due to the perception that the food is actually there. And you can build on that. There's an expectation of having food in the hand all the time. And really, the only time he gets rewarded is when there is food in the hand.

So that's one of the issues is we tend to reward less if we don't have the food right in our hand. But really, it goes back to that teaching the dog the process so he has an appropriate expectation. And so it's not difficult to make those criteria shifts, the criteria shift of having food in the hand to having no food in the hand. That's criteria shift that the dog and handler go through. So three to five reps. And then I will remove the food from my hand and I will click early. I won't wait for the full behavior. I will click the dog following an empty hand cue on the path to the end behavior. So I don't need to have the full behavior before I'll click the first time I take food out of my hand. If you tend to lure, if you tend to use the lure for several sessions, then that's what your dog is going to expect. Lures are really effective for showing criteria. I do use lures on occasion. They're very effective at building patterns for the dog. But the sooner the dog learns to offer the criteria without the food in your hand, the faster you're on your way to a more robust behavior. One that's going to, in my mind, have more strength and more longevity. So when I use lures, it's as a means to jumpstart my dog's understanding of what they should be offering. I think lures are an important tool. And I don't think we need to remove them from our toolbox. But I do think that people tend to keep food in their hand for far too long, far too deep into the process. So it becomes too much of an expectation for the dog, too much of a prompt. Certainly, I hate to use the word crutch, but in a way it is. Because really, until the food is gone, they're just following food. I don't believe that that stronger learning process starts to take place until the dog is initiating the behavior without prompts. That certainly matched my experience. Yeah. And I think that's why so many trainers now are really delving into shaping and are really starting to use that more as a primary tool than luring. So thank you so much for coming back on the podcast, Julie. I really appreciate it. I had a great time. I hope I get to come back again. I'm sorry I took so long. I was kind of like, oh, I get excited about this stuff. And it just kind of, I love sharing it. And I want to share that with people. So I really appreciate you having me back here. Absolutely. And I think folks are going to take a ton out of this. There's a lot of great information here. So thank you. Seriously. Super. And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week, this time with Kamal Fernandez,

to talk about the benefits of competition and the concept of leadership in dog training. And guys, this week, I want to repeat my special request from the last few episodes. If you listen to podcasts, I'm sure you've heard other people say this, but reviews in iTunes have a huge impact in helping new people find the show. And in letting iTunes know that our show is worth listening to. It helps us get recommended and it helps us get more eyeballs on the podcast and ears. So if you've enjoyed this episode or any of the previous ones, I'd really appreciate it if you could take a moment and leave us a review over in iTunes. And if you haven't already, subscribe while you're there to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Thank you.