E163: 마르지 알론소(Marjie Alonso) - "긍정적인 커뮤니티 구축하기"

Which, by the way, listeners, I totally am. And thin and blonde and rich. But so anyway, when she was returned for the third time, like it got harder to get rid of her every time. So I said, oh, fine, damn it. You're mine. So I had this dog who turns out to be absolutely wonderful. How long ago was that? How long is she both, you know? Today is her, I believe her three year gotcha day. Could be four though. I have to look. But it's, yeah, relatively recently. And she, you know, she's filled this gigantic hole, you know, with her enormous personality. So I have a blog about her if anyone's interested. It's called Dear Goddamn Dog. And it's deargddog.com, I think, or .blog or something. But, yeah. I was amused by the question that you have asked, that you have coming up probably next about what I'm working on with her. And the answer is nothing. I mean, I'm trying this dog at all. I mean, she, you know, she no longer bites. She's wonderful. She doesn't even really resource. I mean, she does it, but it's completely without heart. You know, she does it just because she feels like she should, but she doesn't mean it. And she loves all people and she loves all kids. And I've done that. And she can be alone for hours, but the dog can't sit, you know. Not what mattered to me. Yeah, no. Take care of the important stuff. Yeah. The rest, I don't care. Yeah. So speaking of training, how did you originally get into this crazy world of training and behavior? As I said recently, back just after fire was invented, in the late 70s, I was living in Manhattan and I wanted to be a dog trainer. I had gone to the New York restaurant school. I was chefing and I had a couple of dogs. I decided to get dog training lessons from somebody in New York. And I looked in the yellow pages, which was like Google, but it was made of paper. And then I found a guy. And who turned out to be a former canine trainer for the Mossad, which sort of should have been a clue. But I took lessons from him several times a week for a while until the day that he put me in a big straw suit in the middle of a huge fenced in field. And I said, why am I doing this? And he said, you'll see. And then out of this building came this monstrous Doberman who knocked me flat on my back, took the wind out of me, grabbed the bite sleeve. And I was like running around with the bite sleeve and hitting me in the head with it. And I'm like, I don't want to be a dog trainer anymore. So, but I did. I just didn't want to be a dog trainer with this guy. So, I kept, I kept taking, training my dog, obviously.

And I lived next door to a really great trainer who was just a great trainer. She wasn't a professional. And I was taking lessons in Queens, New York. And, you know, we would walk around in circles then. Well, some man told you to do things like sit and stop and your dog would sit and you didn't have to sit. But, but that was actually when I also understood about that behavior was a thing because we were walking in a circle and there was a collie in front of me and my dog. And this collie, and I will say out of nowhere, because that's what it felt like. And that's what people often say. Bit the leg off of a Jack Russell that was in front of him. And it completely changed everything, you know, because that was obviously naughty. And, and, but it also really obviously affected me hugely. And suddenly dog training was not just what fun things can we do to the dog, but it became something about behavior, something about that this was serious. These were people that loved their dogs. This wasn't, you know, the collie owner loved the collie and the Jack Russell obviously loved the Jack Russell. And yet there was all this going on and it changed the way I looked at a lot of things as I, I suppose it did for everybody in that room. But at that time we didn't have behavior. I mean, which is probably the most ridiculous sentence I've ever said. And that's really saying something, but, but we didn't have behavior as a concept with dog training. You know, we had training. So I know you mentioned the, the Doberman guy. It certainly doesn't sound like that was a very positive method. So I was pretty positive. I didn't want to do that again. You know, we, I get asked this a lot. And when did I get into positive reinforcement training? And the answer is either never, or I always was. Um, I'm not somebody that faints at tools. I, I don't, um, I would be happy if most of the aversive tools that we worry about disappeared off the planet. I don't think, I know that we don't have a need for them, but I don't, um, I don't have, uh, what, what people refer to as that, whatever that is, that seminal moment or whatever it is that, that one is supposed to have where you like read this certain book or watch this certain thing and then bink, you know, and then I never did that again. It's just not at all what it was like. Um, we trained and we trained to be effective and good. Um, you know, unless you're a particularly brutal person, um, you didn't do, you know, I was never somebody that would ear pinch a dog to get them to take a dumbbell. I think that there's something really messed up about that thinking.

And it's not uncommon thinking, but there's something definitely pathological about that thinking. But what I found as I popped and jerked and did all the things we were supposed to do was first of all, the dogs were fine for the most part. Some dogs weren't, but you know, there aren't a whole lot of like junky dogs and streets and alleys shooting up and talking about the time they were popped with a collar. But, but also that, that when one trains using positive reinforcement, it is in and of itself positively reinforcing. And so I referred to myself recently as a narcissistic learner. This feels good to me. Therefore, but, um, but the more I, I wasn't conscious. It was just simply that I liked training that way. I could feel how it affected the animals. I could see how it affected the animals. It was a very, um, reinforcing and sort of nice way to train. Um, and especially as I, I mean, I, I had a lot of jobs, uh, as well as dog trainer. I wasn't just a dog trainer until I adopted my sons, um, when I couldn't find a job that let me, you know, single parent to sick babies and earn a living, which is oddly, but, um, I mean, we've kind of ruined dogs in a lot of ways. You know, those horrible backyard breeders, oh, I actually made great dogs. You know, like when my dog got out of the house and your dog got out of the house and now there was awesome puppies, you know, those are wonderful dogs. And, uh, and we've managed to stop all of that. We haven't managed to stop, you know, all of the dogs that are really struggling. Um, and so as those dogs became more prevalent, as training became a more, uh, common thing for households rather than in obedience as manners training, I saw more and more and more desperately sad dogs, super anxious dogs. Um, and I live in the city and the city is not a great place. For dogs and, and the, well, in some ways. And then the more we restricted their ability to be dogs, I mean, dogs roam, dogs scavenge, dogs chase things, you know, and they can't do any of that. Almost none of their natural behaviors can be practiced at this point. And as we did that more and more and more, uh, I had job security, I guess. And I saw these dogs that were already struggling. And the idea of popping a collar on a dog that's struggling is just not something that I personally could really see, you know? I mean, yeah, if he's going to go bite somebody, you're going to pull on that leash because you're not an idiot. But, but, but I mean, other than that, these, these animals and the people that cared enough about them to take them in for training, you know, um, really deserved better.

And that's sort of, and then, and then the world changed and there were suddenly things like positive reinforcement training as a thing and, you know, clubs and tribes and, you know, covens. So if I asked you to kind of describe your current approach or kind of the way you think about training now in a nutshell, um, I'm not good at nutshells, uh, but the, um, my current training now, my current thinking on training now is that we absolutely must use positive reinforcement based training, but we also must use critical thought or, and we must use critical thought. So if the dogma becomes more important than the dog, we've got a problem. And, and, and which is not a way of saying, so we should be using aversive methods or anything like that. It's a matter of seeing what's happening with the animal and being able to adjust that over first worrying about methodology and then the animal, but they're not mutually exclusive. Good trainers train well, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So how has kind of thinking about things that way really impacted, you know, your approach to other things in life? So, um, working with people and training and outside of necessarily just the dogs. I am, um, not much of a traditionalist. So I, I know it's funny. Hardly anybody picks up on that. And, uh, but, um, I think that wandering into, uh, things through organic, uh, development has its benefits. I mean, I think that academic study also has its benefits. I don't think that it's an either or, um, but I do believe that understanding that each situation is an individual situation. Um, and that, uh, everybody needs their own approach, right? To the same goal is an important thing. It, it, it applies to working with dogs. It applies to working with people. It applies to working with groups. I mean, right now I basically manage hundreds of volunteers all the time in various ways. Volunteers, people that are giving their time, um, often very difficult or tedious or repetitive or, or really challenging work. That's pretty amazing. And you can't, uh, not appreciate people like that. You know, you have, you have to say what is going to make this group go in a direction that we need it to go in and remain cohesive. And, and, uh, and I don't, I'm not sure that you could do that by staying, by having strict rules that everyone has to follow or else. Good luck with that. Yeah. I hear that. There has to kind of be some money on the line if you're going to tell somebody or else. I'm not rich enough to be a really full bitch. You know, I have to just be like a demi bitch. If I had a lot of money, all bets would be off.

So, so I want to switch gears a little bit, cause I want to talk about, you know, this thing that you do, IABC. Um, I think some of our listeners are probably, you know, familiar with it a little bit, but there probably is a portion of our audience who just hasn't heard of it before. So can you share a little bit of background on, you know, what IABC is, what its role is kind of in the industry? So I did not name it. That's the first thing everyone has to know. Cause it's the worst thing. But, uh, the IABC was started and I want to say maybe 14 years ago or so by a woman named Lynn Hoover, who, who did, you know, really sort of understood that training and behavior and thinking about, uh, about the psychology. I'm using air quotes, which you can't hear, um, of all of this mattered and needed to sort of be a cohesive, uh, field or, or area of thought. And, uh, it did what groups do, you know, there was founder's syndrome and Sturm und Drang and, and, you know, all sorts of drama. And, uh, but eventually what settled in the dust was this organization that is, that is multi-species, um, multi-practitioner. We have veterinary behaviorists and we have dog walkers and we have parrot people and horse people and cat people and zoo people and, um, and everybody's sort of coming together to say animal behavior is a thing. Uh, it doesn't have to be an academic pursuit. It's very much in the field and the streets and the barns. And, um, and how can we talk about these things? How can we normalize thinking about behavior as a thing? Um, I mean, I, I still run into people that think, that think behavior doesn't always exist, which is, I mean, it's just like gravity doesn't exist. I mean, it's equally drop a brick and let me know how your foot feels. And then we can argue about gravity and every single thing that we do is behavior, whether we mean it or not, you know? So IABC has now grown to be in about 30 countries. Uh, we have consultants and, um, and trainers that help people, uh, with their companion animals primarily, but also with some zoo animals and other animals. It's a pretty gratifying group of people to work for. Um, you know, these are really, for the most part, really dedicated people. You know, they're, nobody's doing the easy thing. Um, and so, uh, we, we help people and their animals to get better, um, and to do what needs to be done to have hopefully a happy life. Um, and we also keep people safe. I mean, you know, the, my dog growls at babies and I'm due in three days, you know, it's not an uncommon call for us, you know, it's like, oh, gee, that sucks.

Um, but you know, there's a lot of very serious stuff and a lot of very fun stuff that goes on. Yeah. Do you have any kind of thoughts on what you'd really like to, uh, kind of accomplish with IABC while it's under your leadership? Yeah. I really, I really want us to have a unified field. Um, I think that, uh, we need to, you know, tribalism is different than tribes. Uh, I had a recent discussion with somebody, tribes meaning groups that people can belong to and be proud of. Great. You know, FENZ, excellent tribe. IABC, excellent tribe. But I'm not in favor of tribes when that brings in tribalism. I cannot be an answerable and honorable tribe if I have to feel better than your tribe. Um, and even if we disagree with methodology, even if we disagree with approaches, um, it's not okay to be vitriolic and mean and shunning. And, you know, I just, I feel a whole lot right now that people are pushing off of others in order to get higher up and that's terrible. So I, uh, after 10 years of work, you know, finally, um, found great co thinkers in KPA and CCPDT and APDT. And, um, and we, we joined in together on the joint standards of practice, which is an ethics and, and consumer protection. And, you know, it's a, it's a set of, of a standard of practice for people who are trainers and behavior people. And it's a floor, right? Because we need a common floor. So KPA has very specific requirements that they want people to follow. And that's absolutely fine. You take the joint standards and you add something to that. Um, you've got a great construction there, right? And, and so what I would like to see happen is that everybody agrees to, um, that same floor and then people can move off of that. But I think until, unless, and until we have those standards as those, um, standards of practice, we can't consider ourselves a real field in training and behavior. You know, it's still a bunch of tribes. Um, and, uh, and I would like to see that happen, uh, a lot. So just tell me just a tiny bit more about, um, those joint standards. I'm kind of curious what's in them or. Um, it's our, it's our, uh, code of ethics and it says things like you can't lie and cheat and steal and you have to be as good as you say you are and other outrageous things. You know, we, I mean, back when I was a kid, you know, um, I'm now shaking my fist and telling you to get off my lawn, but you know, back when I started, you know, and, and in competition, uh, in sports, people are measured by the same ruler, you know, uh, you did or did not. You know, cue and that's by exactly the same standards, no matter who you are or what kind

of dog you have or where you live. And with behavior and training, pet dog training, um, that's not the case. People can kind of say, I am good enough according to me and, uh, and then take people's money for doing that. And, uh, you know, I do think that there should be something, some consumer protection that says, you know, if you hire me to teach your dog to open a beer, then I should be able to do that. And you should feel confident that I can because I adhere to these standards. Um, now if there's something that prevents that dog from opening a beer, you know, doesn't have a mouth or whatever else that would be, um, then, uh, then, you know, that's something that you would say ahead of time. You wouldn't agree to do it. And if you don't have the skills to teach it, if it is possible, that's a problem. And we have to stop moving the line according to our own skills and start saying, no, everybody has to be able to do what they say they can do. And that's what this is. It's, it's simply a standard that it's a skill-based standard. Um, Lima, least intrusive, minimally aversive is a skill-based standard that's complicated. Um, but all of these standards in the joint practice say you will use the most positive, least intrusive, which might mean not intrusive, right? As people are always like, why does it have to be intrusive? It doesn't. Least does not imply some, but you know, the least intrusive, minimally aversive, most effective way to get the behavior. And that means getting the behavior, not, oh, you know, I know you said you want your dog to open a beer, but instead, instead I taught him to lie on the couch. You know, it's like, oh, okay, you say so, you know? And so that's what that really is, is, is, uh, saying that we, we acknowledge that we have to have a certain amount of skill, that we have to live by certain ethics and professional ethics. I'm not talking about morals. I'm talking about professional ethics that say in order to practice, um, I agree to these terms and these standards and I will do the work that is required to, to abide by them. To kind of pivot back to IABC for a second. So for those who are involved, what kind of benefits are we talking about for members? There's a lot of benefits. So, um, uh, I mean, we really put the non in nonprofit, but we still managed to, uh, um, we still managed to, to provide our members with some incredible stuff, including tons of free CE because we do require continuing education units and our members have access to many, many, um, uh, videos from conferences and things like that, because we do understand that not everybody's

a millionaire. And so we want people to continue to grow and to learn, and we will make that as, as financially easy as possible, including free when we can. So we have discounts on courses. We create quite a bit of education. And, um, and so we have discounts for that education. We have free webinars. We have free videos from conferences for members, but we also have this community that is, I mean, I think FENZ's community is like this too. It's just a really great community in the real sense. So people help each other and people get into interesting conversations, which is not like an up with people rally. Every time everybody speaks, you know, it's not, not that everybody always gets along or always agrees, but that it's, it is, I mean, I would literally say almost always 99% of the time, respectful, productive, interesting. Uh, it's got some depth, you know, and, and people are learning from each other and supporting each other. And it's not uncommon to see people say, I'm stuck on this case. Uh, can somebody help me? And everybody comes in and, um, and it tends to be evidence-based. There's not a lot of like, we'll hang a crystal and get some rescue remedy and circle three times and paint your West wall blue. And this will, I mean, if that makes you feel good, go ahead and do that, but that's not what's going to fix this. So, um, you know, and so people will, um, be just really great and people will pivot, you know, people will say, Oh, I never thought of that before. And it's really gratifying to, to watch and to be part of. Uh, from your bio, it's kind of, um, clear that you're a chronic underachiever, Margie, real underachiever. Um, so what exactly is it you do all day as executive director at IABC? I saw this question. I'm like, I have no clue. I think the dates just go away. Answer email. I don't know. Um, we have so many projects. We have so much we do to try to further this mission of positive reinforcement, effective behavior consulting and training throughout the world. So we have a Spanish language division, every single thing. It's like Ginger Rogers and Fred Astaire. Somebody had to do all of those dance moves backwards and heels. And I think that's what it's like for the Spanish language division. They work so hard, you know, to, to, to recreate or duplicate all of this material that we have. So we have this incredible Spanish and the Latin America and Spain, um, have, uh, there's a real hunger for good education and training and behavior. And it's a privilege to be able to provide that and to give some meaningful, uh, content.

It's not that there isn't any, and there's some good schools and some great trainers, but there's a dearth of it. And, and so there, you know, it's a privilege to be able to provide that. And we have a lot of outreach that we do. Um, when Hurricane Harvey went through, uh, Maddie's fund reached out to us and said, we have a lot of these animals that are now homeless or being fostered. Can you help? I think it was 10 minutes when 112 of our members volunteered to do remote consults with all of these foster people for free. In minutes. Yes. We'll do that for free. We get involved with projects, citizen science projects like Darwin's dogs, um, which is a huge genetic, uh, project going on about dogs and diseases and mutts. They're using mutts, which all the other genetics projects haven't done. In fact, if anybody wants to have fun, if you go to, oh, maybe it's just my idea of fun, but if you go to muttmix.org, um, that is the, the, um, offshoot of a huge study that we did. I think we had half a million answers or something, seeing if people could guess what dogs were in these mutts. And, uh, it was pretty interesting. And the answer is no. And trainers aren't any better than the public, which is horrifying to everyone, but, um, but it is kind of fun to do. And, uh, now we're in this pandemic. Um, and you know, the first thing we did was say, what can we do to help our people? And today, uh, which is, uh, the 16th of April, uh, we are launching our crisis response page, which has the pandemic handbook, which is 50 something or more pages of how to do remote consults, how to deal with the government primarily in the U S. Um, but there's more coming, um, you know, how to get loans, how to scripts for talking to your landlords, scripts for talking to the utility companies. Um, worksheets and planners and things like that to help people survive this. Um, and, you know, we really want to, to help our people. And we have a dog trainer handbook, which is a full puppy and a full dog curriculum based on doing remote consults and, um, you know, and sort of geared to be both for a trainer and a client so that you could say to your client, download this book, we'll work through it together. And here's a lesson. And then we'll go on zoom and, or you can put up a video in YouTube or however one wanted to do it. Um, and you know, everything from body language exercises and videos to real life, uh, video examples from, again, our members volunteering this information saying here, you can have a video of me doing a consult so that people can see what it's actually like.

Cause it's very intimidating to think about doing it until you see it and go, Oh, actually I can do that. Um, so, but this has been three and a half weeks of tens and tens and tens of hours of people, volunteers putting this together for our community. And, uh, and today we launched that. And I think it's going to be really, I hope it's going to be really helpful for people and also downloadable lists of thousands of contacts throughout the government for, for, uh, you know, can you help first responders first of all, by taking care of their animals? And when this is over, can we be the first, like we want them to literally trip over us before they go to anybody else for work. So like, Oh, Hey, I'm your speed bump. So all those things take a lot of wrangling and a lot of hurting. Lots of hurting cats, huh? Lots of hurting cats. And then all that other pesky stuff, like running a website, running commerce, doing all the different stuff that directory types do. So, uh, I actually wanted to ask you specifically about the pandemic handbook. Um, can you dive into that just a little bit more? Like, is it open to everybody? Where can people go to find out more about it? Like all that kind of stuff. It's, uh, if you go to our homepage at iaabc.org, it will be right there in the front. The address is iaabc.org slash crisis dash response, which is less easy than just going to the homepage. It is absolutely open to everyone. We want to help everyone if we can. And, uh, anybody that finds this useful should take it. Um, so you can download the dog trainer handbook. You can download the, I don't know why you would, but you can download the crisis of the pandemic handbook, which by the way, has the best cover ever because I have a very tolerant community who lets me create, um, insane looking things. And then a very lovely graphic designer who goes, okay, I'll incorporate it. So she's like, it's the most fun I've ever had. Uh, next to the lemonade conference memes. That's the, that's the most fun I've ever had. But, um, but the, uh, so we have, um, as I said, a lot of videos there with more coming, more information coming, you know, anything that we can do that helps people. If people write to me, we'll try to get it there. My email is exec director at IAABC.org. And if there's some information that people think would be helpful to have there, we'll try to get it. You know, I may ask you to gather it. I would be careful for your right. Right. But, um, but, um, but yeah, I mean, we're just, we're just trying to be a beacon. You know, we want to be a lighthouse in the storm that says, yeah, we can all still drown,

but there is this, um, light here that, that we'll, we will do our best to protect us. That's what we're trying to do. So for all of those trainers who are kind of out there, and obviously a lot of them right now are really struggling, right? They're really struggling with kind of the current realities of the world. Um, I just wanted to see if you had any tips or thoughts or anything you kind of want to get out there. I think people should be drinking more. I think that's very important. Like I've noticed that I don't start drinking until way too late in the evening. I have like maybe one. I think that's a huge mistake. Uh, so, um, but, um, you know, there are, there are things to do to stave off the wolves at the door. And it's a lot scarier to do it if you're trying to do it alone. Um, that, that is the best advice I can give anybody is don't try to do this alone. Um, there are people that know things that you don't, you might know things other people don't. Um, and even if you know nothing, you're welcome to join this community while we help each other through. And, you know, if your landlord is throwing you out or if you're losing your name, it, you know, your business, um, if you didn't have any money in the bank anyway, it's not the pandemic's fault, but now you're really screwed. So what do you do? And, um, and so there are people that are exactly in the same boat as you. There are people that are different size boats and we are going to do this together when we come out the other side, which we will, we will still have a lot of broke trainers, just like we did before. And we will, which people stop that. But, um, but also, um, I think that we'll also have a better educated group of people and a tighter community. And I also think that we will have changed how training is considered. I think that remote consulting and remote training is not something just for emergencies. And it is something that allows clients and trainers to do stuff a lot quicker. There's no travel time. If you have a dog that's terrified of a car or that is super reactive or whatever it is, why are you taking the dog in a car and going somewhere where they're going to, you know, I mean, there, there are things that we can do together, um, remotely that may not be all of that we do, but we can certainly utilize this, um, as many of us have been doing for some years. But I think now we're really seeing how much can be done virtually. Um, and that there are ways to do it. I'd like to say one thing about everybody's freaking out about puppy socialization right now.

Back, remember back just after fire, when I was starting, nobody socialized puppies. We had great dogs. Every puppy is going to be fine unless we make them crazy. I mean, um, so if you're a puppy, if you have a puppy and it's not being socialized, there's more of those air quotes. You can't hear the way we think would be ideal. Your puppy will be fine. Go set up. And we have this in the dog trainer handbook. The, you know, go set up a weird like thing in the backyard. If you have a yard with like, you know, move some of your furniture up there, make things weird. Do things that are different. Hang out with your dog. You know, uh, if you live in the country, drive to the city, put on a mask. And by the way, desensitize your dog to masks. Um, that's in the book too. Um, and, uh, you know, if you live in the, in the city, go to the country, show them a horse. You're like, what? Yeah. Um, and do things for your dog that show your dog that there's a big wide world out there, but your dog will be fine if you don't socialize it according to whatever recipe you think needs to have happen. Might not be ideal. It'll be okay. You're still gonna have a great dog. Awesome. So I've got, um, a couple of questions here that I usually end every interview with. So I want to kind of go through those and then we'll call it quits. So nervous. Okay. Okay. That comes across. Totally comes across. Um, so first one is, uh, what's the training related accomplishment that you're proudest of? The thing I'm absolutely the proudest of, and it's training related, but not necessarily like you're thinking is, um, the trainers that use more punitive methods that I have invited into IABC and said, come on in. The water's fine. Give us a try. Right. Who are now using completely positive reinforcement based training without exception. That is, it still gives me goosebumps, you know, to think about that. I'm really happy about that. Um, so what is the best piece of training advice that you've ever heard? Uh, it is, it depends. Um, it, it depends is the best piece of training advice and the correlate, you know, it's a study of one. Uh, that is absolutely the best training advice. Always. You must look at who you are, who this creature is, your training, husband, child, dog, cat. Um, and it depends. There is no right answer. Um, or there is no right answer that applies to everyone. There's always a right answer for that individual. Yeah. And then last one is who is somebody else in the training world that you look up to? So, so I am a little bit allergic to training stars.

Um, I, I, the fangirling around some extremely fangirly worthy people, by the way. Um, it's not that we don't have these epically great stars. It's that I don't like the fangirl. So I think honestly, who I look up to the most are the people that have done the hard work of becoming measured and assessed at what they do, who have said good enough, according to me, isn't good enough. And who have gone out and gotten some sort of certification or education that is applied and practical, um, because they've, they've been brave and they've been insistent that they are good enough. And those are the people that I really admire. And there's an awful lot of them. Um, and they really, and then those people that then contribute to the community by helping others. Oh, total fangirl. That's where it's fangirling on, huh? Yeah. I mean, like, you know, throwing my bra, which is by the way, a horrible thing to do to people right now. But when I was younger though. Oh man. Oh, all right. Well, thank you so much for coming on, Margie. This has been fantastic. Thank you. You've been a hoot. No, it's, it's, it's fun. And thank you for having me and for listening to me blabber. Feel free to cut the bra part, you know. We'll leave it in there. And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with Julie Flannery to talk about transitioning from using props and training to getting those same behaviors without the prop. Don't miss it. If you haven't already subscribed to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice, they'll have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. o Thank you.