E74: 제니퍼 서머필드(Dr. Jennifer Summerfield) - 행동 약물 & 훈련

So for him, just the fact that he has any titles at all and can occasionally successfully trial is a pretty great accomplishment. Um, but I, I have him entered in a couple of trials this fall as well. So hopefully we'll keep building on that. And then my youngest dog, Clint is, let's see, he is four years old now. And he, um, his history was a little bit different. He came to me as an adult, uh, almost a year old because I really wanted a dog to show in confirmation. And, uh, when I got Gatsby as a puppy, he was supposed to be my confirmation dog. That's what we were hoping for. But, um, I don't know how much, you know, about Shelties and confirmation, but the height thing is a killer. So, um, he was in the, you know, look like he was going to be in size on the charts and everything. And then when he got to be about six months old, he was over. So, um, so I got Clint a little bit later at a year old from his breeder and he was already a finished champion at that point. So he knew what to do, um, which was perfect because I was a total beginner. And, uh, so I had a really good time showing him, um, for about a year after I got him, we finished his grand championship together. Um, so that was really cool. And now we're branching out and he's starting to learn some agility and, um, some other things as well. So that's, uh, that's my guys in a nutshell. So I've got a bit of a chicken or an egg question here for you. So did, um, dog training come first or did becoming a vet come first? How did you get into all this stuff? Funnily enough, I, I've been interested actually in dog training and dog behavior from as early as I can remember. Um, even before we had a dog. So when I was a kid, um, I was really crazy about dogs and I was fascinated by dog training and I had, you know, books and books and books, just shelves of books on, you know, training dogs, obedience training, and also a bunch of random stuff. Like I had books on Schutzen training and books on herding training and books on service dog training and just everything I could get my hands on. And I remember one of the really formative experiences of my childhood was that my aunt took me to an obedience trial. That was, uh, at that time, the, uh, I don't remember what the name of the kennel club is, but our local kennel club in Charleston, I live in West Virginia, used to have their show at the civic center every year and they would have an obedience trial as part of that. And so my aunt took me one year and I must've been maybe eight or nine, something like that.

And I just remember being absolutely riveted by watching the dogs in the obedience trial. Um, which I guess is maybe kind of a funny thing in retrospect for an eight or a nine year old to be riveted by, but, um, but I was, and I just remember watching that and thinking, it was absolutely the most amazing thing I had ever seen. And I wanted to do it more than anything. Um, you know, so hence all the books and all of that stuff. I actually, uh, I remember I wrote to the AKC when I was a kid to ask for a copy of the obedience regulations, cause I had read that that was how you could get them. And this was back before everything was online. You know, this would have been the early nineties. So, um, so I wrote to the AKC and I remember being super excited when they sent the manila envelope back that had the obedience regulations in it. And I read them and I was just super fascinated and I knew that was what I wanted to do. And, um, so we got my first dog when I was about 16 and he was a Sheltie named Duncan. And, uh, so I did a lot of training with him. Um, we were never very successful in the obedience ring, um, which was completely my fault, not his. But, you know, I've just always been really fascinated by the idea of being able to communicate with another species that way, you know, being able to have that kind of relationship with a dog where they understand what you want them to do. And, um, there's all this back and forth communication going on to do these really complicated, fancy things. So when it came time to start thinking about what I actually wanted to do with my life, um, you know, around kind of junior high school, high school, getting ready to go to college, I always knew that I wanted to do something related to dog training or dog behavior. And I thought about several different ways of going about that. Um, I considered, you know, the idea of just being a professional dog trainer straight out, but I was a little bit nervous about that because I wasn't quite sure if it was easy to make a living doing that or how one got established. And I was just a little bit concerned, um, as it didn't feel very stable to me. Um, and maybe, you know, who knows, but I wanted something that was more, that felt like there was more of an established career path, I guess, for it. Of course, I thought about veterinary medicine, um, because that's one of the most obvious things that everybody thinks about when they want to work with animals. And I did actually give some thought in college to, um, going to graduate school and getting a PhD

and then possibly, um, you know, becoming an applied animal behaviorist that way. But it was a, there were two reasons I opted not to go that route. And one was that I discovered in college that research is really not my thing. And I knew that unfortunately that was going to be a big part of life, getting a PhD. So that was kind of a, um, a strike against it. So what I ultimately decided to do instead was to go to veterinary school. And what I liked about that idea was that I felt like I'd always have, um, something to fall back on regardless. I knew that I could do behavior, you know, hopefully relatively easily. You know, I could get into doing that with a veterinary degree, but I could also, um, just be a general practice veterinarian too, if need be. And actually, I really liked that aspect of my job right now. So, um, that's how I ended up in vet school, but it really was kind of a, always kind of a backdoor way to get into the world of behavior. That's awesome. And it's fantastic that that like appealed to you at such a young age. I think that a lot of people who listen to this podcast can probably relate to that, right? Yeah. I think this is probably the audience that would relate to it. It's only in retrospect that I realized, um, what a strange little child I probably was, but Hey, you're not alone out there. That's right. So having been interested in it from kind of such a young age, were you kind of always a positive trainer? Is that kind of how you started out or, um, did you cross over at some point? How'd that happen? Yeah. So I do consider myself to be a crossover trainer. And I think a lot of that has to do with the kind of information that was out there at the time that I first started getting interested in these things. And I was first, um, you know, collecting all my books and reading everything. So this was, you know, the nineties for the most part. So positive training, I know was starting to become a thing around that time, but it wasn't, as I recall, um, super mainstream, at least not where I was and, you know, in the things that I was reading and the classes that I was going to. So most of the books I had, of course, um, probably like a lot of people at that time were pretty correction based. And, you know, they talked about how you needed to be in charge and you needed to, you know, make sure that your dog knew who was boss and that you had to be really careful about using cookies in training because then your dog gets dependent on them. And of course you don't want your dog to just be working for cookies. You want them to be working for you.

And I thought all of that made a lot of sense at the time. And I remember that when I was first working with Duncan, um, I had this book that was about competitive obedience training specifically. And I remember working through this book and just, you know, working religiously on doing everything it said. And I remember teaching him to heal. And the way that the book said, you taught your dog to heal was you put a choke collar on them and you walked around in circles in the yard. And every time they got in front of your leg, you know, you, you gave a leash correction and you jerk them back and you just did that until they figured it out. And that's how Duncan learned to heal. And obviously if I had it to go back and do over again, I would do it differently. But, you know, he was a good dog and he learned and it worked, um, you know, reasonably well. Like I said, we never got to the point of having any great successes in the obedience ring for probably a lot of other reasons besides that. But, but that's kind of how I got started. And then I remember that as I got older and I started reading more things, one thing I remember that was a big turning point for me was reading Jean Donaldson's book, The Culture Clash. I know that probably a lot of your listeners are familiar with that book because I know it's kind of a classic in, in, you know, the world of behavior. But it's very much about how most of the things our dogs do that bother us are just dog things. You know, they're just doing things that dogs do and those things happen to bother us. And, you know, that's reasonable sometimes and we can teach them not to do those things. But that was just such a revolutionary thing for me to think like, you mean, it's not all about, you know, that my dog's trying to be in charge and he needs to know that the stuff's not allowed. And, you know, she just made so much sense. And I had really, I remember at that time, I had really never heard anybody put it that way before. And I, I want to say that was really the first time that the idea of positive training was presented to me in a way that, that made a lot of sense. And then as I got older, of course, and started to learn more about the scientific side of things, you know, I'm a huge science nerd, as probably most people are who, you know, go to the trouble of getting a veterinary degree. And so as I, you know, as I learned more about the scientific side of things, then I was sold, you know, because obviously, the scientific consensus is unanimous, you know, that clearly

there's a there's a way to do things that works a lot better than, you know, using correction based techniques. And there's lots of really valid scientific reasons to use positive reinforcement training. So I would say by the time I started vet school, I was pretty solidly in that camp. And the other thing that really probably cemented it for me was seeing the difference in how quickly Duncan learned things for one thing, once I switched, you know, he learned to heal the old fashioned way, but he learned to do his dumbbell retrieve with a clicker. And, you know, he loved his dumbbell retrieve, you know, he would find his dumbbell if I forgot to put it away after a training session, you know, he would find it and bring it to me and sit, you know, and he just had an enthusiasm for it that he never ever had for the things that we learned, you know, when I was still teaching the old way. And then when I got my dog, Remy, who, you know, was the second dog I had the first dog after Duncan, who, by that point, I was pretty solidly in the positive reinforcement camp. And he learned to heal with a clicker. And looking at the difference between the two of them, both in terms of how technically good their healing was, but also just looking at their attitude differences and how much they wanted to do it. Um, I knew, I think after I had done a little bit of work with Remy and seen that kind of difference that I would never train another dog with corrections again. Sometimes the proof really is in the pudding. Once you've seen it, you can't go back. Yeah. Yeah. And I know that's something, um, I guess that's a pretty common experience. I think I feel like I hear a variation of that from a lot of crossover trainers that, um, that it's a combination of understanding the science, but also when you see it, you see the difference in, in your own dog or in a client's dog. And you say, why on earth did I ever used to do it a different way? You know? Absolutely. I imagine that kind of being a vet and a dog trainer, you know, you've got a lot of knowledge there, right? So how does kind of one body of knowledge there inform the other and how have they kind of both influenced your career? I'm really glad, you know, looking back that I did make the choice to go to vet school because I think that's a good skillset to have. Um, obviously I like being a vet. I am in general practice, even though I spend a fair amount of my time seeing behavior cases, I do general practice stuff too, which actually I really enjoy, but that skillset is definitely

useful for seeing behavior cases because there are a lot of behavior issues dogs have and training issues that have a physical component to them. You know, and it's very handy to have that knowledge base to fall back on so that if somebody comes in and they say, well, you know, my dog's having house training issues all of a sudden again, and he's always been house trained, you know, but now I don't know what's going on to be able to say, well, you know, your dog, you know, might have a urinary tract infection or your dog might have Cushing's disease. Your dog might have diabetes, you know, and these are things that, um, sometimes people think they have a training problem or a behavior problem when actually they have a medical problem. So definitely useful to have that knowledge base to be able to say, well, actually, maybe we should look at this. You know, both being a veterinarian and being a dog trainer are fields that I think people feel like they, they have to do with dogs, you know, or they have to do with animals, I guess, more broadly being a veterinarian. And that's true. But what sometimes I think people don't realize, um, if you're not in one of these two professions is how much they have to do with people. Um, yep. Yeah. Because, you know, all of the animals come with a person and, you know, really it's pretty rare being either a dog trainer or a veterinarian that you're dealing much directly with the animal. You know, your job in both of those fields is to coach the owner on, you know, what they need to be doing, hopefully, you know, and figuring out what works for them and, um, you know, kind of engaging in some problem solving with them to figure out what they're able to do with their lifestyle, whether it's, you know, training their dog not to jump on people or whether it's managing a chronic disease, you know, like diabetes. And so I think that in a lot of ways, that skillset, the people skills part of things is something that has really gotten to be strengthened and developed by doing both of those things. So I think all in all, it worked out for the best. So the last guest we had on, so you'll be right after Sue, the last guest we had on before that was, uh, Deb Jones. And we were talking all about that piece of it. Just the idea that, um, really, if you're a dog trainer, you're training people, you're not training dogs. It's such a big difference. Yeah. You know, we do career day periodically for a lot of the, you know, elementary schools, but also junior highs and high schools in the area because everybody wants a veterinarian to come for career day.

So, and it's amazing, of course, kind of the, the common thing that you hear from people sometimes is, you know, Oh, I want to go into veterinary medicine because I really like animals and I don't like people. And we say, well, then I don't know if this is the career for you because it's very, very, very people centric. It's all about people. Um, so if you, you really need to like dealing with people and enjoy that aspect of it too. So to, uh, shift gears, I guess a little bit, um, I know you've got a webinar coming up for FDSA on behavior medications. So I wanted to talk a little bit about that stuff too. At what point should someone start thinking about meds versus training for a behavior problem? You know, what I always really harp on about this, and I, um, actually have a blog post that I wrote a while back on this topic specifically is that, yeah, that, that I really wish we could get more into the habit of thinking about behavior medication as a first line treatment option for behavior issues. I see so many cases where I think people want to save that as kind of a last resort, you know, like, well, we're going to try everything else first. And, you know, we've been working on this for a year and a half and nothing's helped. And maybe it's time to consider meds, you know, and it, um, I totally get where they're coming from with that. I know that there are a lot of reasons people are nervous about medication. Um, but it makes me sad in a lot of ways because I see so many dogs that I think, my goodness, their, their quality of life could be so much improved, you know, with medication or the training plan that you're working on could go so much smoother and be so much less stressful for both the owner and the dog if we were willing to consider medication earlier in the process. So for me, you know, when I see behavior cases, um, certainly not every single one do we go straight to medication, but I would say that, gosh, probably a good 70 or 80% of them, we talk about medication on that first visit. Um, because usually if they're things that are legitimate behavior issues rather than training problems, which I can touch on here in a second too, if you want, but if it's a behavior issue that is enough of a problem that the owner is willing to schedule an appointment for it and pay for the consultation and sit down with me for three hours and talk about it, um, chances are that it's something that could benefit from medication of some kind. And, you know, I see so many dogs that do better on meds and there's really very few downsides to them.

So really in general, not anything to be scared of and, you know, not any, um, anything that you have to feel like you need to avoid until nothing else has helped. I think of it more as, um, you know, it's just like if your dog had an infection, you know, you wouldn't, you wouldn't say, well, we, I just really want to try everything we can possibly do before we put them on antibiotics, you know, or if he had diabetes, you'd be like, I just, I really don't want to use insulin. I just really, really don't want to use it. You know, it's, and I think we just think of behavior medication differently, um, which is too bad in a lot of ways. And I would love to see the mainstream, um, thinking about behavior medication move more towards, um, the same way that we use medication for anything else. So, so you said there, you could touch on, uh, the behavior stuff in a second. I'd love to have you kind of elaborate. What did you mean? Yeah. As far as determining whether you have a behavior problem versus a training problem, which I do think can be, um, a little bit of a muddy line sometimes for owners. And the way that I usually try to break that down for people is that if you have a training problem, this is usually, you know, your dog is normal. Your dog is doing normal dog things that happen to be annoying to you or to other people, um, which is fine. And that's legitimate. That's still definitely something we want to address. So I'm not saying that as a, like, see, this isn't a problem. Um, totally a problem. If your dog is, you know, flattening old ladies when it tries to say hi or something like that, that's a problem, but it's a training problem, right? If your dog is friendly and, um, otherwise normal, um, it's not something that we would treat with medication because this is just something that, you know, we need to teach your dog a different behavior to do in that situation. Whereas things that we think of more as behavior issues are things that have some kind of emotional component to them. So things that, um, you know, have a, an anxiety component, or that's probably the most common, um, the vast majority of behavior issues that we see do have an underlying anxiety component, but you know, it's that, or it's a compulsive behavior issue, or it's something that's not normal. Um, you know, a genuinely abnormal behavior that the dog is doing. That's when at that point, we think they're more of a candidate for medication. That makes sense. It's kind of, is this a normal behavior or is this? Exactly. Exactly. And, um, one, uh, I can't remember who it was, but I know one year I was at a conference

and, uh, was listening to a talk on behavior medication. And I remember the way that the speaker put it, which I really liked was one of the ways they look at whether it's a true behavior problem that needs medication or not is, is it something that's bothering the dog or is it just bothering you? Which I thought was kind of a great way to word it. Yeah. I like that. So I'd love to include a link to the blog post that you mentioned that you wrote a while ago, kind of in the show notes. Would you be willing to kind of shoot me over a link to that when you get a chance after we're done? Absolutely. Yeah. I could definitely shoot that over to you. Awesome. To kind of get back to the behavior meds thing, what are, I guess, some signs that medications might really have a positive influence on a behavioral problem? Is there something about a problem that you go, oh, that definitely, like we can, we can work on that with medication. Yeah. I would say, um, a little bit of, you know, what we touched on a minute ago in that anything that, that we think has a significant anxiety component to it, which is a lot of things, right? You know, that encompasses things like separation anxiety or thunderstorm phobia or dogs that are generally, um, just kind of anxious and constantly on edge and have trouble settling. So anytime we kind of get the sense that, Hey, you know, this dog seems to be abnormally fearful or worried about things that are pretty normal in life. You know, that a quote unquote normal dog really shouldn't be fearful or worried about, then that's a pretty good indicator that medication would probably be helpful. The other kind of big thing that makes me think, you know, we should really consider meds here is if the people have already been doing some work as far as training or behavior modification that's appropriate, you know, something that's like, okay, that, that sounds like a pretty good plan. And they're just having a really hard time making any headway. That to me is a really strong indication that we could probably help that process along quite a bit with medication. The problem with a lot of dogs, um, especially if we're working on something like say leash reactivity, for example, where, you know, we know how important it is from a behavior mod standpoint to keep the dog below threshold, how we're working with it for some dogs that are just so sensitive, that's just incredibly difficult, you know, because it, it doesn't take anything at all to send them over threshold. And it can be really hard to find that little window of opportunity to even start working on

training in a way that's going to be successful. So in a dog like that, for example, medication can be really helpful to just bring things down enough that the dog is able to think, you know, that you're able to get that little toehold of space where the dog is able to see the trigger and not react so that you actually have some room to do your training. So if somebody's considering this, right, they're looking at medication or they're, they're thinking it might be a good fit for their dog. What are some resources that they can use or that they can turn to, to learn more about some of the options out there and some of the meds or even just behavior modification training kind of specifically? Yeah, that is such a great question. You know, I think in terms of learning about behavior modification in general, there is some really great stuff out there. You know, there are tons of obviously really knowledgeable people in the field who have blogs and podcasts that are easy that anybody can access for free. There is, you know, you can find some really great webinars through, of course, FDSA, but also through organizations like the Pet Professional Guild or the Association of Professional Dog Trainers or the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants. There are online courses you can do. I really think that for a lot of dog owners, they might even consider if they're into this kind of thing, you know, attending a conference like Clicker Expo or, you know, the APDT National Conference or something like that if it's nearby. I find that a lot of dog owners sometimes don't think about that or don't realize that they can go to things like that. But, you know, anybody's totally welcome at those conferences. I know like the last couple of years when I've been at Clicker Expo, certainly the majority of people there, I would say, are professionals in the field of one kind or another. But there's always a good smattering of people who are just dog owners who want to learn more about this stuff. And I think that's really cool. So lots of opportunities to just learn more about behavior science and behavior modification. On the behavior med side of things, I actually wrecked my brain trying to come up with some good, you know, resources that are available for dog owners for that. And there just really are not a lot, which is one of the reasons that I'm really excited to do this webinar, because I do think there's a lack of good information that is easily accessible for people about behavior meds other than the very basic stuff. You know, like, hey, behavior meds are a thing.

You might consider it for your dog. But beyond that, it is actually really difficult to find much information. Now, I know you kind of specialize in behavior. You know, if somebody goes to their average veterinarian, is that person going to have enough of an understanding to start that conversation? Or should they really be seeking out somebody who specializes? I mean, kind of what's the guideline there? The answer is that it really does depend quite a bit on your veterinarian and whether that's something that they have an interest in or not. And that's just true in general of general practitioners about really anything. So I don't mean that at all to sound like, well, you know, if your vet doesn't know this stuff, they're lousy. Like, believe me, if you are a general practitioner, you cannot know everything about everything. All of us have areas that we know a lot about and then areas that we know very little about. I know anytime somebody comes to my clinic and they have questions about, you know, orthopedic issues or they, you know, their dog has a broken leg that it needs pinned or something like that, I send that out the door so fast because I know nothing. Like, that's not my area and I'll be the first to say so. And there are some general practitioners who are fantastic at it. So behavior to me is a lot like that. There are some GPs who are going to be great at it and really know their stuff and going to, you know, be really well versed in all the medication options. And then there are others that if that's just not an area that they deal with much, they may not know a lot. But one option that is available that I think a lot of pet owners don't always realize is an option is that if you don't have a veterinary behaviorist nearby or a veterinarian who, you know, is good with behavior and sees behavior cases and your vet says, you know, I'd really like to help you. I just don't know that much about this stuff. Many veterinary behaviorists will do a remote consultation with your vet, which can be super helpful. They can't do it directly with you. And that has to do with the legalities of the practice act and things that we legally cannot, you know, make recommendations directly for an animal if we haven't met them in person. But what they can do is they can talk to your veterinarian and your veterinarian can give them, you know, the whole write up and details of the case and they can say, oh, okay, I understand. You know, here's what I would consider as far as a behavior modification plan. Here's what I would consider as far as medication for this dog.

And then your vet can take that information. And they're the ones that actually are in charge of doing the prescribing and overseeing the case directly. But they can keep in contact with the specialist about the case and, you know, make changes as needed and all that kind of stuff. So I think that is a really underutilized service that I think sometimes people don't even realize is out there, but it is. So if your vet's not super well-versed in this stuff, but they'd like to help you and you're willing to, you know, to do something like that, talk to them about it because they may not realize it's an option either. But I think that can be a really good happy medium sometimes if you don't have somebody in your area who you can work with in person. Yeah, I think that's an awesome thing that just have you kind of mention on something like this because, like you said, maybe people don't even know it's an option out there. I certainly wouldn't know. Yeah, definitely. And I know I am going to talk a little bit about that in the webinar as well. So we'll have more details on how that can work and how people can, you know, specifically seek that out if it's something they're interested in. Now, obviously during the webinar, you're not going to be able to give dog-specific advice. Like you said, you have to see the dog kind of hands on the animal in order to do that. Right, unfortunately. But I would love to give people just a little more of an idea on what you kind of plan to cover, especially since I know we're doing kind of two webinars back-to-back in the same evening. Can you talk a little bit about what you want to cover? Yeah, I'm super excited. And I guess this is kind of unprecedented for FDSA, right, to do the doubleheader? Yep, your first one. It's going to be great. It's going to be a behavior pharmacology extravaganza. And I could not be more excited. So the first webinar is going to be an introduction, basically. So meant for people who want some basic information about behavior meds. It's going to talk about things like how do you know if your dog might benefit from medication? Because I know that's probably a question that a lot of people will have who are watching the webinar. I'm assuming a significant portion of people will be watching because they have a specific dog in mind that has some issues. So we're definitely going to talk about how to kind of decide that for your own dog. Is it something that might be helpful? We're going to go over all the different classes of drugs that we use for behavior cases because there are actually quite a few different options now.

It used to just be, you know, Prozac and Clomacolm. But there's a lot of other options out now, which is really cool. And we're going to talk about what our goals are when we use behavior meds. So, you know, how that works with a training plan and, you know, what kinds of things to expect that way. We are going to spend some time also talking about natural supplements and calming aids and things that can help either by themselves or as an adjunct to medication. And then in the second webinar, that one is going to go into more detail as far as things like how do we actually choose for, you know, real specific cases what medication to use, right? Because there are a lot of options. So we're going to go into factors that we look at to help us decide what medication we think is going to be best for this particular dog. We're going to talk about combinations because for a lot of cases we do actually use more than one medication together. So we're going to talk about how that works and how you decide whether you want to go down that road and if you do what things can go together or what things can't. And we're going to have several case studies to go over and examples to use for discussion, which I'm actually really excited about. Because I think that's where sometimes you kind of get the most information is seeing how it applies to some actual cases rather than just kind of getting everything in the abstract. And we will be talking in that second webinar because we know that the FDSA audience obviously is a lot of performance dog people. We are going to talk specifically about considerations for performance dogs. So things like how do behavior meds impact learning and memory? Are there any ethical questions that we need to consider when we're thinking about medicating dogs who are actively showing and competing? That kind of stuff. So I think that'll be a really interesting discussion too. That sounds so interesting. I'm actually really excited to kind of dig into it. I'm so excited. So in addition to the webinars and your work as a trainer and a vet, you're a pretty busy lady. You also blog and you recently started podcasting. So I wanted to kind of point listeners to those resources a little bit. Can you share a little bit on what you write about and talk about maybe some of the recent topics you've covered and where they can find that stuff? Sure, definitely. So my blog is Dr. Jen's Dog Blog. So you can search for that and it'll come right up. And I've been doing it since, gosh, I think July of 2016 maybe. So I've got quite a few posts on there.

I think the most recent one I did was on accidental behavior chains that sometimes we teach without realizing to our dogs, which was kind of interesting. I know some of the posts that I have had in the past on that blog that people have found really helpful have been on things like I have a post on behavior euthanasia, which actually a lot of people have written to me about and said was helpful for them. I have a post on fear periods and single event learning, which I think a lot of people have found pretty interesting. And then I have some posts on specific topics like leash reactivity and under-directed aggression and things like that. So if anybody's curious about those topics, a lot of times I do try to include case examples when I write about those too. Lots of sticky issues. I know. I know. They are sticky issues, but actually those are some of my favorite things to write about because I think that sometimes there's a lack of honest conversation about some of those things. And I think it's sometimes useful to have, you know, to just say, well, here, you know, it's something that I deal with every day in my job. And, you know, here's some thoughts. Here's my perspective on it. And I know that I do get a lot of emails from people about those sticky topics that they found them helpful, which is really nice to hear. Yeah, so the podcast is pretty recent. I just started that here earlier this year, and it's been super fun so far. I only have a few episodes of it out so far, but of course I'm actively doing that and the blog, so there will be more coming. I know the most recent one I did was on teaching reliable recalls to your dog, which I thought was, I know that's a topic I get a lot of questions about and a topic that we troubleshoot a lot in our basic manners classes. And I've had some past episodes on, I know I did one on car ride anxiety, and then I've got some basic topics like puppy socialization and house training and that kind of stuff. I do, I guess I should probably mention here, I do have a book out as well, if it's something that people are interested in. It's, the book is called Train Your Dog Now. And it is basically a kind of a reference guide, like a handbook to pretty much anything that might come up behavior or training related with a dog. So it has sections on, you know, teaching basic obedience cues and tricks, but it also talks about how to teach your dog to cooperate for grooming and handling, you know, nail trims and teeth brushing and ear cleaning and that kind of stuff.

And then there is a whole section on behavior issues, you know, so it does talk about leach reactivity, it does talk about owner directed aggression, talks about aggression to visitors. And there is, it's a brief section, but there is a section in the book also about behavior medication and supplements. So that's something that for people who like to actually have a hard copy of something they can look at in their home, that might be a good option to consider. So to kind of round things out, since it's your first time on, there are three questions I try to ask every guest their first time on the podcast, and I'd love to do those. So first off, what's the dog related accomplishment that you're proudest of? Yeah, so I would have to say, and there are so many, you know, that's always a question that's hard to narrow down. But honestly, if I had to pick one, I would probably say getting my dog Remy's CD would be my biggest accomplishment. You know, from the time that I went to that obedience trial when I was a kid, and I watched the dogs, and I just wanted to do that so bad. And, you know, with Duncan, we muddled along, and we did a little bit, we dabbled very briefly in competitive obedience, and it didn't go super well. But, you know, I learned a lot from that, obviously. And then with Remy, I did things a little differently. And it still took us a long time to get his CD finished. But the day that we finished it was just, like, I went back to the crate and I cried. It was such a big deal for us. And I know, obviously, for a lot of your listeners, they have, you know, much, much higher accomplishments in the obedience ring. But, you know, for us, that was huge. And sort of the second part of that, I guess, obviously, finishing the title itself, you know, was such a big thing for me, because it was something that we'd worked so hard on. But one of the things that kind of was the cherry on top about that trial was I remember that when we were packing our stuff up and getting ready to go back out to the car, there was a woman that came up to me. And I didn't know her, but I guess she had just been, you know, standing around watching the obedience ring. And she came up to me afterwards and she, you know, congratulated me on finishing my title. And I said, thanks. And she said, I just wanted to tell you how much fun I had watching you and your dog because he looked so happy. And so that was just, that was huge. And that I probably still feel maybe the greatest about that of everything, you know, that we've done in our competition career or anywhere. So that was a great feeling.

That's amazing. And I just want to encourage everybody who's listening. Hey, listen, people remember when you say that kind of stuff about them and their dog. Like, it's worth it if you're thinking it. That was huge. Yeah, I wish. Yeah. I don't remember very much about that lady now, except that that was what she told us. But she made my whole, like, year, my whole decade. Yeah. So thank you, whoever that lady was, if you're listening. Yeah. And, you know, if you see somebody have a really awesome run and you feel something like that, like, absolutely. Step up afterwards and let them know how awesome it was. I mean, yeah. For sure. Makes a big difference. It's such an amazing thing to hear. Congrats. That's awesome. Thank you. So my second question here is, what's the best piece of training advice you've ever heard? What I would have to say, and this is not technically dog training advice. I guess I'll preface it that way. But I think it can apply to dog training. And I think about it in regards to dog training a lot. And it's actually a quote from Maya Angelou. The quote, it gets paraphrased a lot. But the actual quote is, she was saying, she said, I did then what I knew how to do. Now that I know better, I do better. That has always struck me as being such a really great way to look at life. A lot of things about life in general, but specifically about dog training. Because I think for probably a lot of us who are crossover trainers, I think that it's probably a pretty widespread thing to have some degree of regret or guilt, you know, maybe about how we did things with our first dog or, you know, how we taught some things that we wish if we could go back and do it differently. And I love that quote, because it, you know, it's so true that, you know, that there's no reason to feel guilty or to feel ashamed about doing the best that you knew how to do at the time, you know, and that's all any of us can do. And that when new information comes along, and you realize that there's a different way to do things that you just adjust your behavior and you do it differently. And so I've always found that really helpful in terms of thinking about myself. And my own choices. But I also think it's so helpful to keep perspective when I'm thinking about clients and people that I work with in my job as well. Because I think it's so easy, you know, for those of us who do this professionally, and we know all the science, and we do this day in and day out, you know, it's so easy to get a client and to feel like, oh, you know, can you believe these, you know, this person's

been using a shock collar on their aggressive dog, or, you know, this person's been alpha rolling their dog. And, you know, these things that, you know, are things that obviously are probably not the ideal way to handle whatever behavior issue they're having. But, you know, I think it's so helpful to remember that people are just doing the best they can. You know, like, that's so powerful, you know, that people are just doing the best they can with what they know. And that's all any of us can do. And we all were there at one point, too. And that thinking about it from that perspective, that, you know, our job is to, to say, hey, you know, I totally understand where you're coming from. And I understand why, you know, why, why that seems like it makes sense. But let's look at some other ways to address this that, you know, hopefully are going to be a little bit more effective and not have some of the side effects that those methods have. And I, I think about that really frequently, you know, both in terms of my own life and also working with clients just to try and keep that perspective that, that it's important to give people the benefit of the doubt that we're working with, too, you know, and remember that everybody is just doing the best they can with what they know. And so for our last question, who is somebody else in the dog world that you look up to? These are all three of your questions are very hard. Because there's so many choices. No, I know. So I would, I have two for this one, if that's okay. So for the first one, as far as being a sort of really well-known public figure in our field that I've always really looked up to, I would have to say Dr. Sophia Yen for that. She, you know, for veterinarians, especially, you know, she was such a pioneer of changing, you know, the way that, that we deal with dogs in the clinic. And of course she did a lot of behavior stuff besides the low stress handling as well. But I think she was just such a tremendous role model for all veterinarians and the way that she dealt with animals and the way that she dealt with people. And so, yeah, so I look up to her tremendously. And I think she, she did great things for the field. The other person that I would have to mention, she's not really famous, I don't think, but she is a great clinical applied animal behaviorist that I worked with when I was in veterinary school. And her name is Tracy Schreier. I worked pretty closely with her through the four years that I was there because she was very involved in the puppy class program at vet school, which I worked with quite a bit.

And then, you know, she was involved in teaching some of our classes and things on behavior as well. And working with us, the behavior club set up some, some things with her. So I dealt pretty closely with her the whole four years. And what I loved about her and really took away from that experience is, you know, she was great with dogs and animals in general. She was fabulous. But she was also so, so great with people, with clients, you know, and she was always reminding us, you know, I think, again, for many of us in this field, you know, being empathetic towards the dogs is easy. You know, that's kind of what drew us in in the first place. But I think it's so, so important to remember that we have to have empathy for our human learners too. You know, that what we're asking them to do is hard, you know, and they, you know, and that they deserve just as much consideration and kindness and respect as our, our dog patients do. And she was probably the single best example of that, that I have ever seen. She was fantastic. And that is a lesson that, that I definitely took away from working with her. So I would say she's the other person that I still really look up to in the field. That's awesome. And that's such a great compliment to have given somebody you learned from to say that they are, you know, so empathetic and so good with people. Yes. It's a hard skill, such a hard skill, but yeah. Absolutely. It's so important. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Jen. Yeah, no problem. I've had a great time. Thanks to our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with Nancy Tucker to talk about getting better door behaviors. Don't miss it. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Thank you. Thank you.