E280: 사라 스트레밍(Sarah Stremming) - "반려견이 최고의 자아가 되도록 돕기"

And of course, now we're going to try and put it into words. What are the behaviors or kind of the symptoms somebody might see if they have a hidden potential dog? So these dogs and, you know, I hate to slap a label on anybody, but the people who tend to sign up for hidden potential have dogs who are reluctant to work or maybe check out from work. Maybe they'll get started, but then they leave. So commonly, these are dogs that get sniffy during an obedience or agility routine or anything like that. They might be dogs that during training, they seem to quit. Like maybe you are in a rep of whatever it is that you're doing and they decide they'd rather go sniff again or lie down somewhere else. And, you know, they're just the dogs that didn't come out of the womb latched to a tug and are maybe a little bit harder to convince are the are the best dogs for this class. And, you know, we're going to get into it, but it can look a lot of different ways. And essentially, the folks that tend to that tend to sign up are frustrated with maybe they want to do the thing and maybe the dog seems like they want to do the thing a lot of the time, but then doesn't seem like they want to do the thing other times. And we need to kind of improve that communication system so that the dog and the person are less frustrated. So are all of the dogs who kind of fit into this bucket or, you know, who kind of fit as hidden potential dogs, I guess, can they all be helped or is there always like room for improvement? Is this something that we can fix or work with? Or are there some dogs that, well, that dog really just wants to be a couch potato and we should work on accepting that instead. Yeah. So full disclosure, and this might not sell me any more spots, Melissa, but this is the hardest class that I teach for me to teach and also for people to participate in. And the reason is we really dig deep in this class. We do a major deep dive with every single gold spot to figure out what the source of the problems are. And sometimes the answer is that your dog doesn't want to do the sport that you want to do. And that's a really hard truth for a lot of people to accept. So I don't approach this class trying to fix anything. I approach this class trying to explain and trying to improve communication. And some people take this class and they go on to have success in their chosen sport because of the class. Some people take this class and go on to try a different sport with their dog who doesn't want to do the thing that they maybe intended for the dog to do.

And then there's always a chunk of dogs in this class in gold spots who actually wind up having health concerns. And that is something that I'm certainly not a veterinarian, but I guide people in this class towards conversations with their veterinary team to try to figure it out. We, through Hidden Potential, people have had their veterinarians diagnose hypothyroidism, cancer, hip dysplasia. I mean, lots of things that could be the problem. And it's never like, oh, well, I never thought of that. It's typically, it's been missed. It's been looked for. It's been missed. And I sometimes help guide the conversation to kind of get where we need to go. So it can be a really tough class because sometimes we don't fix anything. Sometimes we, you and you decide that you and this dog are not going to do, say, agility, but maybe you find that you and this dog really love, say, barn hunt. Or maybe you find out that this, for this dog, agility is just too physically hard. And so then you go on to do something else. Or I've had dogs actually get on the right medication for what their condition is and then go forward and have success. So it's a really varied, interesting, it's never short of hard brain work for me to figure out what's going on and dig into what's going on. And I don't describe myself as blunt in my teaching style at all, but I do describe myself as honest. And so if I see something going on, I will not gloss over what's going on for the team. And I'll kind of keep pushing you in the direction I think you need to go. And, you know, it's hard, but it's really worth it. And I think if you go, you could even go search if you're on the alumni page for the name of the class. And you will find people kind of sharing their stories from the class. And maybe they are having huge results or maybe their veterinary team diagnosed something, etc. So it's an interesting class. We don't really go about fixing stuff, but we do go about doing that deep dive. Again, kind of looking over that syllabus, it seemed like there are a few really big concepts that you look at in the class. Consent, things like fear of being wrong. Can you talk about those big concepts a little bit? Why are they such a big deal, especially for these hidden potential type dogs? So consent is another one of those common threads that you're going to find in everything that I do. And defining that, it's basically I want the dog to be opting in to everything that I'm going to do. And I don't assume the opt-in I'm watching for it. With a lot of the dogs that sign up for this class, their opt-in has never been present.

And therefore, the person has no idea what it looks like. So we train the person to see what the opt-in looks like. And then in some cases where the dog has been typically not in a nasty way, but like lightly coerced to do the thing. And, you know, you can think of the dogs that are kind of cheer-led through the agility course of the rally course. And the person's clapping a lot and like, you know, making kissy noises and like really, really cheerleading the dog through. I would call that a light form of coercion. And so a lot of these dogs have been kind of lightly coerced into doing whatever the thing is. And so those dogs don't think they have a choice. So they're not going to show you an opt-in. And they're probably showing you a lot of really subtle opt-outs. And so sometimes for those dogs, we actually train them a hard and fast opt-out signal. So we train them, you can do this and I will always stop and just feed you for doing that. And then we're going to stop. So that's one concept we might go into. But in general, it's teaching people to watch for that opt-out and allow that opt-out to happen, which again, tough road to walk if you've literally never seen it before. And then fear of being wrong. I would say that it's more like a lack of trust in the training process itself. So if I look at training like a game, like maybe even a game on my phone, if I download a game on my phone and I start playing it and it's easy and I like it, I'm going to keep playing it. And the people who make games are very clever people who get paid a lot of money if they're good at it to increase the difficulty at such increments that you barely notice it's happening. You just keep enjoying it because if it stays at the same level of difficulty, you do get bored with it. But if it shoots up in difficulty too fast, you don't like it, you stop playing that game. Our dogs can look at training. Our dogs in training, it is exactly the same thing. So what we do kind of routinely, I think in dog sports, unfortunately, is we just increase that difficulty level way, way too fast or we don't even start at an accessible level. I'm going to tell you, Melissa, there isn't an accessible starter level that I've ever seen for me with Sudoku. That does not exist. I look at it, it's numbers. I'm already upset and I can't look at it anymore. I already have mass class trauma that's coming up because there happened to be numbers. If somebody wanted to make a Sudoku that had an accessible level for me, first of all, they'd call me a hidden potential Sudoku player. They would not appreciate it.

And they'd be like, well, she's just a quitter. She doesn't want to do this game. If somebody wanted to start me at an accessible level, they'd need to find some way to make it winnable for me. And so that's what I try to do in hidden potential is find the place that this feels winnable to your dog and keep it winnable. Because my dogs show up to training and this is intentional. This is not what they show up with because they don't dogs don't show up with any training background. My dogs look at training like I know this will be great for me. I don't have a question in my head about whether this is going to be great for me or not. And what that means is that if I'm not my best that day and it gets a little harder, a little frustrating, they're going to keep trying. But that is hard earned. That is through making sure that they believe this is something they can win. And I have to tell you, my Icelandic sheepdog, that's harder for me to do than with my Border Collies. My Border Collies, we'll talk about the class that's more for them a little bit later. Due to their temperament, if they're frustrated, they're going to throw bigger behaviors. They're usually not behaviors that are any more workable than sniffing. They're just bigger and different than, you know, my Icelandic. The first thing that will happen if I frustrated her is she will look me dead in the face and bark at me. She's like, how dare you? You need to fix this for me. But you know what? She trusts that I'm going to fix it for her because that's what I've done. So with Hidden Potential, Dogs, and the course, it's all about teaching them that training is a game they can always win. And it's a game that they can trust. And they can also trust that this person is not going to force them. It's a big, hard concept. But it's the cornerstone of the course, I think. So going from that, right, to the Teenage Tyrants course, I know one of the topics that you cover that I see people ask about all the time related to exactly what we were just talking about is this idea about no choice moments, right? So if we want consent and we want our dogs to opt in and all those bits and pieces, can you talk about the difference there between the consent work that you do and how you approach those no choice moments? Yes. And so if kind of gamifying training for the Hidden Potential Dogs, if that's the cornerstone of Hidden Potential, the cornerstone of Teen Tyrants is this concept of choice versus no choice. And it's very hard for people to wrap their heads around.

But actually, a clearly defined no choice scenario is a requirement for you to be able to have choice-based scenarios. If you are not clear about when choice is not present, you don't ever have actual choice moments. If you do not define this, my dog, is a choice moment, you have a choice, I will not make you. And also, this is not a choice, I am going to make you. Because I have news for you, like, they live in our houses, we have to make them do stuff sometimes. I'm going to argue that we never have to make them do dog sports and we shouldn't. But sometimes we have to make them get in the car. Sometimes we have to make them put a leash on. Sometimes we have to make them let us, you know, pull a thorn out of our foot, right? Like, there are no choice moments inherent in husbandry of dogs. And if you don't clearly define those moments for them, you will allow no choice to creep into your choice moments. So, a really good example of this is that if I want my dog to get in the car, but he doesn't have to, I could leave him home if he said no. Then I might say, okay, come on, kennel up. And I've trained kennel up with positive reinforcement. And then if he puts the brake on and looks at me and is like, I don't think I feel like it today. That's the pivotal moment. Because what everybody wants to do is ask them again. Cajole them. Lure them. Maybe get them by the collar and force them. And now I've said to my dog, when I give you a choice, it's a lie. When I give you a choice, it's not really a choice. And now you have no consent anywhere. Because it has to be a promise. It has to be when I ask you. And it is clearly a choice for you. I will honor your no. So, let's flip it around and say, I need the dog to get in the car today. If there's a shadow of a doubt in my mind that he's going to say no. If I think maybe there's a chance he'll say no. There's plenty of dogs who are like, open the door, I'm in it before you even say. So, if it's one of those dogs, I'm just going to open the door and they're in it. But if it's a dog that's like, I don't think I want to today. And that can happen. Then I'm going to go to them. I'm going to put a leash on them. I'm going to guide them to the car. I'm going to help them get in the car. I'm not going to ask them to. I'm not going to make it a positive reinforcement contingency. I'm going to put them in. And I would say in Teenage Tyrants, there's a lot of really interesting topics in Teenage Tyrants. But this is one that is really hard for people. And so, we have a lot of conversations about it. But I hope that there's a few things that come through.

Which is, one is that if I'm not clear with my dog when they don't have a choice, then there is no way that they can understand when they do have a choice. And I need them to understand that the majority of the time in our relationship, they have a choice. And so, therefore, I need to define these no-choice moments and make them very clear. And so, we do a lot of that in Teenage Tyrants. Because, again, that consent piece is so important to me. Just kind of a follow-on question there, just to kind of clarify a little bit. So, in the scenario where the dog does not have a choice about getting in the car, can you still involve food in that scenario? Or does that automatically, like, get into gray area? Really good question, right? You certainly could give that dog an apology cookie after you put them in the car. The difference is that, and if I really want to get very specific and geeky about this, choice scenarios are positive reinforcement contingencies. And no choice scenarios are negative reinforcement contingencies. Which means that your bonus cookie, your apology cookie, isn't the actual consequence that drove anything. It's just like, sorry, here's a cookie. But you got in the car. You didn't get in the car because you knew a cookie was going to happen. You got in the car because you knew the other option was for you to stand there on your leash next to the car. And there's so many, there's so much nuance here because there, this implies too, that you have taught this dog that leash pressure is safe. Or that if you're going to lift the dog into the car, that you have taught the dog that being picked up is safe. Like, yes, all of that really, really matters. Um, the difference is that I'm not saying to you, get in. And I've taught you to get in means have a cookie because in the same sense that if I say sit, my dog knows there's an opportunity for reinforcement. There's an opportunity for a classic positive reinforcer. And therefore he will sit. When I guide my dog to the car by the collar, he knows this is not about an opportunity for a classic reinforcer. He knows that there's just not another choice in the matter. He's going to get in the car. And then I might give him an apology cookie because I love him, but it wasn't why he got in the car. And, you know, at risk of getting muddier and muddier and more confusing for people, if it helps you to keep your lines really clear, then no, don't give food after you do it. Which makes it clear for the human learner, at least. Clear for the human as well as I think people are really not good at being clean in these scenarios.

So they might have that piece of food in their hand and show it to the dog and the, or the dog knows it's there. And now the dog is saying, well, which one is it? Is it, you're going to let go of my collar when I get in? Or is it that you're going to give me that piece of hot dog when I get in? And when you mix those two, you actually, you poison all the cues in the scenario. So it should come after the whole thing is done or not at all. And not at all is often clearer for the human learner. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. I think, you know, in addition to that, like the kind of the common thread of the thing that like people think of when they think of that teenage tyrant stuff, right? It's just how frustrating adolescents can be. Especially for the human, but also sometimes the dog. Because it feels like their, their perfect puppy has just gone totally rogue, right? So what would kind of looking at naughty teenage behavior, like what is normal naughty versus, you know, what kinds of behaviors when they pop up make you worry, oh, there might be something bigger here that we're going to have to address as this dog grows up? Yeah. Yeah. So it's interesting that we just talked about no choice moments because what happens with these kind of teenage puppies is that things that you thought weren't going to be a problem for them to just comply with easily, like getting in the car. It's a perfect example, especially at the end of a hike, like coming inside from the backyard. Like going into our crate at bedtime or some other kind of rest time. We take those things for granted in our puppies. And then they start to learn what other contingencies exist in the world. And then they start to say, okay, so going in the crate equals frozen Kong. And you've taught me that and that's fine. But I now know about other contingencies like bouncing up and off the couch and running around outside and chasing the cat. And so I think I choose those other contingencies. Sorry. I don't think so. So that's what starts to happen is they become really aware of all their all the contingencies and they really start to become aware of agency and their potential control over a situation. And they start to exert that control over the situation. Not in a malicious way, in a normal, natural way that animals that grow into adults of all species go through this where they're saying, I am not as dependent on you anymore. I now am aware of all the contingencies in the world and I am now going to work the system to my advantage.

And then you find out that you thought you had a beautifully trained crate up behavior or come in from outside behavior or put your leash on behavior. And the puppy goes, well, you're cute that that's what you thought, but you're wrong. Uh huh. And when do I worry if things are a bit though? That's all very normal. We talk a lot about that stuff in the class and that's where no choice comes in. If it isn't a choice to go into the crate, then is your contingency going to be go in for this Kong? Or is your contingency going to be go in because it's just you're going in and I'll bring you your Kong in your second in a second. Right. We piece that out and really talk about that. It might be if you can't come in from outside when I call you, you're dragging a long line so that I don't need to call you. Right. I make this a no choice scenario. Um, as far as behaviors that make me worried, anything that is something we would label fearful, anxious, reactive needs bigger intervention. Don't wait. Do it early, early often. If even if you're like a little concerned, early and often, definitely an upsurge in barking about our feelings and potentially lunging on leash about our feelings, etc. is kind of normal in teen age puppies. Um, but if you are kind of going, could this be a bigger problem? Just err on the side of it is probably a bigger problem. Certainly if you wind up in the class and if you're at gold or silver, I can advise on whether I think you should seek bigger help than the class can give you. But there are also lectures in there about that kind of normal range of like just increased reactiveness to the environment, which is very normal. Mm hmm. So if you were, um, kind of think about the age range for this class, right? At what age are dogs typically hitting maturity? What's kind of the youngest age? It makes sense to take the class. What are we looking at? Um, in terms of who's a good fit? I love it when people come in early. I love it when people take this class when their puppy's like three and a half, four months of age. Because then I get in before any problems happen. The problems start to pop up around five, six months of age. So if you get in right before then, I've had people come in with three and a half, four month old puppies, take the class. They lay all the groundwork. They see all the problems that I predicted for them show up at five or six months and they 100% have the tools to work through them. That's ideal. Well, but hey, here we are. So that might not be you. Five or six months of age, these things tend to show up.

And then depending on the breed, it can last into two years of age, over two years of age, depends on the breed. It really is an early intervention course. If the dog is two years old and it's been displaying all of these problems for the last year and a half, yes, you're going to have a lot of tools that will help you work through it. But your job is going to be harder. Then if you jumped on it early. So early is best, but kind of anything under three qualifies. Any kind of words of advice out there for people who are currently kind of coping with that teenage phase? Well, there's one thing about time, which is that it passes. Right. So I would say, especially if you're a sport person, do not write off a dog in this age group. And do not push them too hard. Know that a dog under two does not have emotional maturity. Know that most dogs under three don't have emotional maturity, what I would call emotional maturity. And so, you know, I've often heard of people who started competing their dogs at the age that it's legal, say in agility. Maybe this dog is 15 or 18 months of age and things really start to go poorly. Obviously, problems develop. They write the dog off. And I'm saying you didn't even wait for that dog to be emotionally mature enough to cope with that environment. So maybe put them up for a minute, let them grow up and think about that again. Felix, my seven year old dog, was not emotionally mature enough to cope with an agility trial environment until he was over three years of age. That is really frustrating for people. But people who have seen him compete, who have been around him, would not think that he is not coping with that environment because he is coping with it. And he couldn't when he was 18 months old. And some of it is training, but some of it is that his brain matured. And so just calm down. Enjoy that puppy. Laugh about them. Know that if you feel like something's a behavioral emergency, reach out for help sooner than later. But most things aren't. Most things just need some good training and some good intervention just on the positive reinforcement front. And you will be all right. All right. So even though it's not until October, I did just want to kind of touch on your worked up class, too. So can you talk a little bit about the type of dog that's a fit for worked up and maybe how that's a little bit different than what you cover in your hidden potential class? Yeah. Yeah. So the dogs and hidden potential are responding to confusion or frustration or sometimes fear and stress in a certain way. They get a little sniffy. They might check out.

They don't want to work. They don't want to keep going. The dogs and worked up are also responding to stress, confusion and frustration. They're just responding in bigger, louder ways that are sometimes that sometimes our interventions might look a little bit different. So dogs and worked up, they just kind of spiral upward. They might get barky. They might bite you. They might jump at you. They might, you know, I've definitely had dogs come through worked up who the second there was a moment of frustration, they ran, left the agility course to go trifle through everybody's bags and finally find a toy because they are owed a toy. You, you know, you lapse in your reinforcement as far as they're concerned and they left. Um, I would say that just getting really, really clean in your communication and your reinforcers is what worked up is all about. That would be what hidden potential was all about. Only if I didn't have so many dogs who were sick or potentially temperamentally not suited to the game. In worked up, I tend not to have those problems sometimes, but I tend not to have those things happen. And so we can just focus on clean communication, really, really cleaning up those reinforcers because worked up dogs just care a lot about their reinforcers. Hidden potential dogs care less about the reinforcers. That's, that's if you really want to like pare it down, that's what's going on. And so in worked up, we help you to just to be a clear communicator and especially to be clear about those reinforcers for your dog. Um, and that way we help reduce kind of those problematic behaviors and increase the behaviors that you'd like to be seeing. I know it's super common, especially in the dog sports world, right? To conflate this idea of high arousal and this idea of high drive. Um, can you talk a little bit about what you see as the differences and really why that's important? Yeah, so some words that kind of would love to have universal definitions that don't have universal definitions, right? So drive, I like to think of drive as the really classic definition of drive, which is an innate desire to fulfill a need. And so that drive tends to be about the reinforcers for, uh, most of the dogs in the worked up class. Whereas in the hidden potential class, the, that drive tends to be about seeking safety or they're all always seeking their cleanest, clearest path to reinforcement. And that's true in both versions of these dogs. Thinking of the dog that is like his pupils are dilated. His tongue is enormous.

His commissure, the corners of his mouth are like pulled way, way back into this grimace. And he is just, you can see the smoke coming out of his ears. Like he, and he cannot hear you. He probably can't eat food. You give him a treat. It sits on his tongue or he chipmunks it. If he's really smart. Those dogs, in my opinion, are in such an emotional state that is not only not conducive to learning, but not conducive to like long-term health. I don't want you in that emotional state. Um, I am not one of these agility people that wants the dog kind of barking and screaming and spinning out of control. I, I love it if they are really hot for the game and really intense and really intense about their reinforcers. But I need them to be able to hear me, to respond to cues and to trust that their reinforcement is coming and to trust that the information is coming. What I usually find is dogs whose desire has been exploited to the point that they do not trust that you're going to give them the right information. And so they're kind of a mess before they begin. And they have a, they, they have a response to the entire kind of training or learning scenario that they are no longer hearing you. They want to just fly around and take obstacles. Or if we're talking about other sports, I mean, dogs that can't stop barking or body slamming or biting at their handler in obedience are a really big example of this as well. And so I would consider, um, actually both of my border collies to be, um, certainly very high drive dogs for whom I would say one of them, her arousal, you know, actually when she was young, I would probably describe her as high arousal as well. But I got, I, it was easy enough for me to get a handle on it with the brain I had 13 and a half years ago. So I don't think it was that bad. Um, versus Felix, I would say came with some really big feelings and really high arousal. And, um, he's, the course is really written for him. He's seven years old. I wrote it when he was a puppy, as I was helping him, as I was standing outside of dog parks while people were throwing chuckets for their dogs, teaching him that he could watch me and listen to me. Even if dogs were running after a tennis ball nearby, I wrote that course because I was like, you know, I think this is going to help other people. I hope it's going to help Felix and I think it's going to help other people and it helps him. And I think it has helped other people. And I think it's, it's the reason that I think it's the course that I'm best known for at FDSA. Um, and it's my favorite. So come take it.

It being your favorite matters quite a bit. Yes. Um, anything else you'd want to kind of add about any of the classes or who should take them or anything important we maybe didn't cover? I think that, um, just know that if you're going to take any of them, and I think this is true for like all of FDSA. If you're taking it at bronze or even silver, if you don't read and follow the gold threads, you are missing more than half of the class. And I know that's true for most of the courses I've taken at FDSA, which have all been at bronze. I've yet to rip that bandaid off and take a gold. Um, and so at least read the intros and decide on a couple of dogs that maybe feel like they pertain to your situation and subscribe to those threads and follow them because you are missing more than half of it. If you, if you don't read the golds, I'm really generous with my conversations with my gold students. All of my classes are really, really conceptual. My classes don't look like this. It's not like, okay, do X, Y, Z and you come back and you did X, Y, Z. And I say, great, do X, Y, Z again, but change this, this, this. And then you come back and it doesn't look like that. It's more like, so she sniffed at a 0.23 in the video immediately following your cue to sit, which previously had involved a hand signal. And this time did not involve a hand signal. So let's talk about is a hand signal usually what's going on for you? What, you know, like it's, it's very conceptual deep dive geeky stuff. And if you don't follow those gold threads, you're, you are missing more than half of it. Yeah. You're missing all the examples. You are. And you're missing my individualized feedback within it. Like I give you the baseline assignments, but then those deep dives are happening over in the gold threads. And I know, you know, that's really, really true of like our Amy Cook's classes, for instance. If you don't follow the gold threads and you're missing the magic that Amy is handing people, you're missing her class. And I feel that way about, I do feel that way about mine. I feel like if you, if you don't read those gold threads, you're probably missing it. So if you're signing on at bronze, fine, great. We love you. Please come in, join the Facebook groups, whatever. But peeking on the gold thread sometimes. All right. One final question. If I wanted, or since I am asking you to sum up kind of our conversation today into, you know, a final piece of advice or like one kind of takeaway that you want people to walk away from this with. What do you got? Oh, so hard.

I would say it all comes back to that, that opt-in from the dog. Watch for that opt-in. If you don't know what the opt-in looks like for your maybe hidden potential style dog, it's time to do a deep dive and figure out what that looks like and figure out maybe why. And because you will see what the opt-in looks like, you will know, you know, what situations you need to remove choice from for your tyrant. And for your worked-up dogs, they probably come out of the crate opt-in. So what you want to be watching for from them is more the subtle I can't, not the I don't want to because that's not going to happen, but the subtle I can't. And those are all things that we definitely dive into in my classes. Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Sarah. This has been excellent. Thanks, Melissa. And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with Andrea Harrison to talk about human resilience and recovering on the human side of the leash when things go wrong. If you haven't already, subscribe to the podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice. They have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fensi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fensi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensan.com. The track featured here is called Bud. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Thank you.