에피소드 09: 줄리 다니엘스 인터뷰

They are night and day in their personalities and just so much fun to work with every single day. So we have two youngsters, and then the older dogs. What are the youngsters' names? Comet and Kool-Aid. Doesn't that just roll off the tongue? Karen's rescue mix is Comet, who was not supposed to survive as a puppy. He has a liver shunt that was supposed to kill him and didn't. So he's a real unique individual. And my young border collie is now a year and a half, Kool-Aid. Um, she came full of confidence and Comet came full of, um, fears and different issues. So they truly are night and day. And they are best buds, best friends, absolutely, uh, perfectly compatible in their differences, if that makes sense. Yeah, that's kind of awesome, actually. Yeah, yeah, it is. It's awesome. So, um, in addition to Comet, I know that most of your dogs right now are border collies, but you've had a lot of, uh, different experiences with a lot of different breeds. You've worked with a wide range of breeds. And I really wanted to ask you kind of what the secret was. If you have any advice out there for people in the dog sports world who may be competing, whatever their sport, with just a breed that's not traditional for what they're doing. Oh, yeah. Um, yeah. Thanks for asking that because I think people do think of my sport agility as, uh, you know, particular to a few breeds doing well. And it's really not that way at all. Any sport that you want to do can be enjoyed with any dog. I always tell people, start with the dog you love. That's the only way to do well anyway. And I think I can tell you from experience, it's all the extra work that it takes to make it in a sport with an unlikely breed. All I can tell you is keep at it because it's worth it. It's just plain worth it to go out there and do well with a breed or an individual dog, actually, of any breed who was not expected to do well. It's the, the pride just wells up in the teamwork that you accomplished over the years. I think no matter what your sport is, that's the case. So don't worry about what breed you have. Choose the breed you love and play the sports that you're interested in. Your focus has been agility for the last couple, last while. But I was curious how you originally got into dog sports since I know you were in agility in the very early days. And I'm assuming that there's a story there. Yeah, I think you just called me old, Melissa. I didn't go that far. It's true. I was one of the early people who saw agility coming from overseas and just jumped and said, this is the sport I've been waiting for. That is true.

So before that, I was into competitive obedience. And I actually had a rough collie who, whom I had for 13 years, who developed an overshot bite, actually, not exactly an overshot bite, but a faulty bite as is common in the breed. And that's the only reason I went from breed to obedience. And, of course, like many people, just kind of never looked back, enjoyed the performance aspects more than the confirmation aspects, and just started down that road of dog sports as a team sport. And that's where my interest lies. So how did you get from those initial days in obedience and become a positive trainer? Ah, well, positive dog training. Well, it's been dogs and me my whole life. I mean, since before I could walk, my family loved dogs. My mother's father had favorite farm dogs. And so having been raised with that kind of exposure and being a very young, small child in a big family, I was raised with a good deal of, I would say, benign neglect. All my dogs were walk-ins when I was a kid. My parents were all about, you're not feeding that dog, are you? We didn't need another mouth to feed, so to speak. And, of course, I lied. No, no, not feeding the dog. And then pretty soon, it's no, but look what he can do. And so, ta-da, meet my next new dog. So my parents were open. As much as they didn't want me to have more animals, I just had all kinds of animals as a kid from very, very, very young age. And as a little kid, overpowering an animal doesn't work, even a small animal, but certainly not big dogs. And relationship first and food second, that does work. I will say some of my earliest, fondest memories of being a small child in a big family, my mom was not particularly generous with praise. But one thing she said about me on a regular basis when speaking to other people, Julie can do anything with any dog. And I grew up knowing that was true, feeling that from the bottom of my heart from the time I was a tiny child. So, yes, as an adult, earning money in college by training dogs and that kind of thing, of course, I got off on the bandwagons, which were popular at the time, much more corrective methods in the era of show chains and stuff. I went down that path, too, just like most people did. But it wasn't really a stretch for me to come back, if you know what I mean. I had such a base layer of success with positive reinforcement from the time I was a tiny child. Yeah. So what got you from doing obedience over to agility in those early days? And then what led you to really kind of champion it and help set up clubs and things like that? I saw agility first in, must I admit this, 1986.

So my daughter was three years old. I was a stay-at-home mom. I had, oh, I don't know, four or five dogs at the time. And all the neighborhood kids hung out at my house. And I truly did see that sport. I think I saw a book by Peter Lewis called The Agility Dog. And I just jumped at it. I don't know how to describe it. But at the visceral level, that's the sport I've been waiting for. And so it really wasn't that hard once I started researching who was doing agility back then and trying to find out what was available in this country, which was not much. And by the way, no internet, no cell phones, right? So my telephone bills were over $200 a month, much more than I now spend on my cell phone, which is kind of funny. But trying to make connections that we take for granted today back then was not simple and not easy. So anyway, I got in touch finally with the person who really was starting an organization, an official agility organization in the United States, which is USDA. Ken Tosh and I have known each other since 1986. And he put me together with other people around the country who also were like minded. And he also organized these trips, which were grueling, but so satisfying. I actually bought a trailer and literally brought equipment all over the East Coast. And we operated at major horse shows and like dressage at Devon and Fair Hill and all kinds of prestigious horse shows where people just we literally came in and set up an agility ring full of equipment. And people just brought their animals. So listen, I got to work with pigs, miniature horses, all the stable dogs. So it was a very exciting and wonderful way to spend a weekend over and over. And my little girl came with me. So Heather was exposed to all of this from a very, very early age to my daughter's name is Heather. She's a very well-traveled individual. And yeah, we literally brought the sport to new locations. And you know what? When I was younger, I remember making fun of the Tupperware ladies because they had to cart all that stuff around. So that's karma for you. That's great. You mentioned kind of traveling all around and helping by demoing, it kind of sounds like almost letting people come in, try the equipment. How did it kind of get to that next stage, that next step? What was it like to kind of help it get its legs? Because I believe in this as a team sport, the best, most fun team sport I've ever played, it was easy for me to see that as a worthwhile way for me to spend my allowance and spend my vacation and travel time.

So long before there were any official competitions, there were a few of us diehards who were driving, oh, certainly it was 800 miles down to Danville, Virginia. And I would drive that just to play with friends down there for a weekend on their equipment in their location. And there were no trials. So we're not even going for any kind of prestige. We just want to play the game. So to be in at the ground level, I think it's true in any endeavor, but it certainly was true in agility. You just really had to want to play the game. And I don't think I've ever lost that. I love to play the game. It's the best team sport I've ever enjoyed. Well, I want to switch gears a little bit and talk about your recent baby genius class at the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy, as well as the class you're offering this session. And I think the day this airs will actually be the very last day before registration closes. People have one more day to actually go sign up, which is you're offering your adolescent sports dog class this session. Most people, when they first get a puppy, there's kind of a mix of emotions there, right? People are really excited, but there's also this sense of fear, this fear of messing up that perfect puppy. So I wanted to ask you any advice you have for kind of overcoming that fear to actually accomplish things. Yeah, I think that's a very important point, Melissa, because I think we all have that kind of fear and should embrace it and laugh about it. We all know with our positive training methods that one rep is only one rep. One session is only one session. So you got off on the wrong foot. Just go in a different direction and do better next time. It really is that simple. But I know that fear that you're talking about. Usually when I have chosen a dog or a dog has chosen me in the past, I tend to gravitate toward dogs who have issues, what other people would not want to try to raise. But I do have the occasional puppy in my life. In fact, Kool-Aid is one of those, my current youngster, who really didn't come with any issues. She was beautifully bred, beautifully raised, a wanted child, and came without the problems that I normally embrace in a puppy. And boy, did I ever have that feeling, too. And so when I first started Baby Genius Class, I thought, I just got to put that out there. And so I wrote that. How does that feel? Exactly like you're saying it. I sure hope I don't screw this up. And I have that feeling just like everybody else has that feeling.

Even though I know in my heart it's going to be a wonderful and beautiful relationship that will change and grow as we both grow together, you can't avoid that feeling of, gosh, I hope I don't screw this up. And did I cause every little thing that happens? Oh, no. Did I cause this? And look at the monster I've created. But you have to embrace that, laugh it off. And just like we have to do that with parents, with parenthood and human children, you know, any one day. In fact, I remember posting on Facebook when Kool-Aid was 10 months about criteria. And I had asked Karen to please tape because I could Kool-Aid was just in one of those adolescent moods. It was so difficult to regain your equanimity with. And she just was being a little brat at the door, if you know what I mean. And by 10 months old, these criteria of being polite when the door opens, those are pretty well in place, right? But nothing is perfectly well in place with an adolescent. That's the beauty of the adolescent. You never know. And she just was berserk. I can't describe it any other way. But she was just screaming, flipping, pounding, rushing the door and banking off it, punching me, punching the other dogs. So my poor adult angels, you know, are being long-suffering and polite at the door. And this little brat puppy is just throwing the tantrum of her life. And so I remember posting it, putting it out there and just saying, I don't care who you are. your 10 month old puppy can look perfectly trained day after day, but then comes tantrum day. And I think it's very important to embrace tantrum day is a normal part of adolescence, a normal part of growing up and not the end of the world. The test is for the handler, the owner, the dog mom to embrace the needs of the puppy in that moment. So the real question becomes, hmm, do I let her work this out? Do I help her by holding her collar? Do I let the other dogs go and make this dog stay behind? Which by the way, don't do that. That's a mistake. And what I ended up doing was a lot of fun. It was interesting for me. And it sort of gave me the next phase of that work that I needed to do with Kool-Aid. I really didn't know that the tantrum was going to go on for a full two minutes. You don't know that kind of thing until you're in the moment. And it really did go on for two full minutes. I looked at the video afterwards and decided based on that, by the way, you should tape yourself. I don't care if you're taking a class or not. Videotape is so incredibly useful. The camera can always see something that you didn't see in the moment. Nor should you see

everything in the moment. You should be focused on your criteria and let the camera do its job of catching what's going on behind you. So anyway, a little bit aside, but a plug for videotaping yourself with your gold, silver or bronze. So what did you wind up doing that day with her throwing her tantrum at the door? I truly did let her work it out, Melissa. And in the future, I decided, no, I think because she really had so much trouble working it out. I put my hand in the collar next time and just helped her. I didn't pull her down, but I eliminated the option of, for example, charging the door and banking off of it or harassing the other adult dogs. I eliminated those options by just holding, slipping two fingers down through her collar, a bigger dog, more fingers, simple as that, and eliminating the options that I really did not want to see again, did not want her practicing, which might inadvertently be self-reinforcing because they feel pretty good, that kind of venting. So eliminating those options actually helped her better herself in the future. So that's the way I do it now with this particular dog, a different dog, if it had played out differently, letting her work it out might be the best way to go. But for Kool-Aid, it wasn't. I'll have to share that video. It's not currently in one of my lectures for that class. I bet I should share that, especially now people are going to want to see it. Yeah, probably. To kind of talk back through that for a second, I was originally just going to ask you what's special about dogs at this phase of their life, kind of that 10-month, the two-year-old phase, kind of what do you see as, is it just that you should kind of expect that they're going to go through that testing boundaries phase and be prepared to deal with it? Is it something more than that? Yeah, I actually love that question, what's special about that phase? And I think there's one underlying common denominator, and that's puberty. So it is a special phase. And I think what you said is true, you do need to embrace that the boundaries will be tested. I think any sport dog is going to be testing all your theories. So I think it's important to embrace that phase. But puberty changes everything. It's very, very different. And we tend to expect that what was taught to the teeny baby is in there pretty good by virtue of our having taught it young. And I think it's fair to say it's in there. But what you said is absolutely true. In this stage of puberty, everything will be tested. And so all those things you thought were in there pretty good, they are still in there. Don't worry

about it. You'll get back to them. But you're going to have to earn them over and over again through adolescence. I think it's very important to embrace that stage. So is there anything that people can do when they're still dealing with a puppy to kind of help make that phase of their dog's life a little simpler? I think expecting and learning to predict your dog's likely behaviors is a very important part of getting through puberty. So as you get to know your adolescent dog better and better, you become better, hopefully, at predicting how the dog will feel about a certain situation. So for example, I truly did learn from that 10 month old example of a full blown tantrum at the door over a behavior, mind you, which had been well taught, well taught, well learned, well received, not particularly difficult or demanding. I think it's really important to learn from each development that surprises you and to adjust future expectations accordingly. The way I did with Kool-Aid. So the next time at the door, I didn't even wait to see whether there would be a tantrum or not. I just croaked a finger downward through her collar. I think it was just one little finger. She didn't look like she was going to throw a tantrum, but, and, and she didn't, but just that little bit of reminder, it's not a reminder. Don't worry. You're not going to be able to get away with this. It's a reminder. Don't worry. I'm here to help you. That's really what the finger is saying. There's no pressure on the collar. It's just a little reminder that we're a team. We're in this together. If we stay connected at the door, we'll all get outside much more quickly. Right. Right. I want to help you and there are rules, but I'm going to help you get through them. Exactly. I kind of want to know if there are any other common threads that you kind of see running through that adolescent dogs class. Any particular problems that you see that come up over and over again, maybe that you can kind of talk us through how you would handle them just so people can kind of get a sense of what's in the class and also kind of your problem solving style. I solve problems first and foremost through games. Games are powerful because they relax everybody, both the trainer and the puppy, and, and they remove the necessary behaviors from the context of the sport where they will be used. That's actually very, very important that the behaviors are taught out of context first and then brought, you know, in a, in a pretty well-learned way are brought to the

environment where they will be used. So that's one reason that adolescent sport dog class is not sport specific. Um, so we'll be using props of all sorts. I love props and they are very, very helpful. Well, the clicker is a prop. Well, um, every little tool that we use and then have to wean from is helpful to getting the behavior in the first place in a way that's, um, minimizes mistakes and maximizes the fun of learning. If your dog doesn't love school, I don't care what your sport is. You're going to have a little bit of trouble learning behaviors, which require things like self-control, impulse control, and focus and heavy thought. It's, um, it's very important that first and foremost, um, your dog loves school. So obviously we start that in, in baby genius class, the most important thing that we can give the baby is not any particular skill, even a basic skill like sit. I'm probably, um, one of the most lax people I know, for example, in, um, requiring a baby dog to sit, to greet people. That is not my first priority at all. My first priority is I love people. And, and so the decorum, the elements of decorum come a little bit later for me than for some people. And obviously that's dog specific too. So if, if you have an adolescent Malamute jumping up on a human is just gotta be long gone by the time they're 10 months old. So it's, uh, it does make a big difference how big or small the dog is, but it also, um, is important even as we train these specific behaviors, such as reading behaviors, just the example that we're using. It's really important that we don't lose the joy of greeting. So this whole concept about my dog can do this. My dog can do that. And he's only X months old. I'm already competing in my dog is just 18 months old. I'm, I'm not likely to be doing that. I'm much more likely to be, um, developing the teamwork, the love of the game and, um, the ability to work together than I am in being sports specific. So adolescent sport dog is not sports specific. It is advanced foundation work to be carried over into any active sport. It is designed for active sports. So therefore things like impulse control are hugely important. And we will play with impulse control forwards, backwards, sideways, and inside out. So dog really understands, um, how to offer certain behaviors in the context of high activity and, and excitement. So I think that's really interesting because I think that's a problem. A lot of people have found they have even with their older dogs, uh, you know, if they didn't curb it now, us, um, they end up with a

three or four year old or even five year old dog who, who may still be struggling with nice greetings or some of those behaviors that, that sounds like you're addressing really in this class. Yeah. I think the ability to think, um, amid distraction is, uh, something that we all have to work on, um, steadily. Don't you, um, for the people as well as the dogs, right? Because, uh, it's very common for people to become disconnected from the dogs at the drop of a hat. And, uh, that's part of this class too. It's not just the dog who needs to stay focused amid distraction that, uh, focus and that team play are a very important two way street. And we give, we will learn to give as well as we want to get. So, um, the ability to tell the person who just came in the door to wait a minute without even looking at that person in order not to break the connection, which you were in the middle of with your dog. I think that's very, very important skill for a human to develop as a trainer. We, we got to give as good as we want to get. That's not simple. And that requires multitasking skills, which is also a focus of this class, the ability to take in peripheral information while we're operating on the information currently on the table. That's, that's tricky. And it's tricky for both humans and dogs and both, both members of the team need that skill. That's very interesting. I don't think I've ever heard that, um, quite looked at from that angle before. I'm always siding with the dog, right? So it's always, it's always clear to me, um, the unfairness of people requiring things from their dogs that they're not willing to give themselves. I call people on that all the time as gently as I can. Although I admit that my in-person students are apt to say you're, you're much gentler with your online students than you are with us. I think that's true. That's, uh, that's true. Guilty as charged. Boy, I, I call people on things immediately when I'm looking at it in person, right? Of course it's real time and it's, it, you can call them live. Whereas online it's after the moment and it's already passed. So yeah. Yeah. All right. To round things out, I said three more short questions. Uh, they're the questions I've asked everybody so far who's come on the podcast. And the first one is what's the dog related accomplishment that you are proudest of? Proudest of, um, I don't think I'm a very proud person in general, but I know there is something over the years. I think, um, maybe it's because I was involved in my sport of agility from the very beginning before we had competitions. But I do think

that over the years I've become both comfortable and philosophical about winning and losing, even in big competition, even in very prestigious competition. Um, I think one strength of mine is that I do not stand on a podium and think, wow, I kicked everybody's butt. That's just, I don't think like that. I don't act like that. Um, instead, if I had to put it to words, I, I think it's more like, I have let this great dog down more times than I can count, but not today. I like that. I like that way of looking at it. It's not world peace. When I go to the start line with my dog, it's, um, it's a game I get to play with this wonderful teammate that, um, I enjoy every day. So my, uh, second and perhaps my favorite question that I asked the guests to come on, is what's the best piece of training advice that you've ever heard? Oh, yeah. I remember hearing that on the other podcasts and I remember thinking at the time, oh my God, how do they choose? It's such a difficult question. So I actually gave this some thought and, um, obviously it is hard to choose, but I decided to go with, um, some words that struck me at the time, like a ton of bricks and still, um, come back to me strongly almost every day when I work with other people's dogs, particularly. And it's from an abnormal psych class that I took in college, but you said training, you didn't say dog training. So it pertains to everybody, including dogs. But this professor said in abnormal psych class, um, I don't remember the question he was asked that he was responding to, but it was about, um, irrational fears. It was about irrational fears, phobias and the like. And this professor just, um, I remember the stroking the goatee type thing. And he says, you can't help anyone unless you begin by accepting their premise as valid. So I think I try to bring that acceptance to all my dog training. So, so therefore I'm less apt to judge the dog. I'm less apt to waste time trying to talk him into things that he's obviously loathe to do or certainly afraid to do. I, I go deeper. I get inside his head. I fall in love and I help. And I help by starting where the dog is right now. And I accept his premise as valid. And that can, that premise can really be almost anything. It can be fear. It can be excitement. It can be joy. I mean, it really can be almost anything. That's really interesting, um, angle to look at training, kind of a lens to look at training through. So my last question is, uh, who else is someone in the dog world, um, that you look up to? Another tough one. Um, I think, uh, one of the people who helped me the most with a couple of

difficult, um, training issues with my own dogs is Temple Grandin. I first saw her book, thinking in pictures. It's not her first book, but it was the first book of hers that I saw since then long since then a movie has been made of her life and the work that she's done with animals. She's primarily a livestock person, but she actually likes dogs very much. Um, her three books that I would recommend everybody pick up thinking in pictures, animals in translation, which came after that. And then later than that, animals make us human, uh, Temple Grandin, you would think because of her background with livestock, uh, would consider dogs and certainly my sport dog agility is absolutely frivolous. I mean, you could make a case for that. It's not, it's not, um, the kind of thing that she works with, but, uh, I've been to three of her conferences and actually she thinks dog agility is pretty cool. She loves the whole, as I do, loves the whole interspecies thing. I grew up with all kinds of different animals and the, the whole interspecies relationship, interspecies communication thing is just fascinating and wonderful to me. I can't get enough of it. And Temple Grandin is like that. And she's, um, the kind of person who, uh, wants good for all creatures and really is one of the world's experts in, um, accepting the, and she doesn't say it this way, but she accepts the animals premises valid better than anybody else. I know. I actually haven't read her books and now I'll have to go pick them up. Yeah. She helped me a great deal with, uh, one very special dog I had, uh, named Superman, Clark Kent. My students used to say he's Clark Kent in the house, but he's Superman in the arena. And he, um, was certainly, um, an autistic dog. You know what I mean? And more than ADHD, he really was challenging to train and he became ultimately made, um, challengers around the only time he went to AKC national. So no slouch. The dog was, let's just say, um, had a lot going for him, but was extremely challenging to work with. And she's, um, said to me about him, you're treating it like he needs the big picture, but he can't, there will never be a big picture. It's all detail, all detail. So when, when you give him cues, you'll have to give them sequentially. And of course me as a world-class agility trainer, I'm like, Oh, you got to do at least three things at once. Who are you kidding? But she was absolutely right. And when I started breaking down what she had said and trying to apply it to the way I was training Clark at seven yards per second,

she was absolutely right. And that is what helped me more than anything else with being able to communicate at full speed with this phenomenal dog. So anyway, that's just one little example, but, um, she's helped very, very many people by giving them a different way of looking at things, but it always, always embraces that premise that you have to accept the dog where he is. And that's, that's your start point. Very interesting. Well, thank you so much, Julie, for coming on the podcast. Thanks, Melissa. And thanks to our audience for tuning in. We'll be back in two weeks with Julie Simons to talk about versatility and dog sports, obedience, and scent work. If you haven't already subscribed to our podcast and iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang and transcription written by CLK Transcription Services. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Music