에피소드 16 - 처음부터 끝까지 - NePoPo®의 학습 피라미드

because they don't know what house maners are right uh they're just a wild being that's going to do whatever they feel like right yeah I think whether you have a puppy or whether you have a untrained adult dog that is a rescue or a dog that you're acquiring from another owner it's important to understand and and this also goes for are you in the position of being the trainer or is this a personal dog right so you have to you have to kind of get a clear understanding look at the picture look at the panoramic of of the situation and ask yourself this question and and start with the end in mind right always begin with the end in mind what is the purpose of this dog if you're a trainer what is what is the goal of this dog's life right what what does the owner want for this dog is this a dog that's going to be an active lifestyle dog is this a dog built or or being trained for specific purpose through service work sport work anything like that understand the end so that you can start off on the right foot because if you get off on the wrong foot and head a different direction it's not the end of the world but it delays the results and it takes you I mean training a dog does take time it takes repetitions it takes patience and so if you if the the more clear in the beginning you are with the outcome in mind the better off you're going to be when you start training the dog right yeah especi and that's one of the questions I'll ask people if I'm training their dog is what's going to be the everyday life of your dog yeah you know what what are you going to need it to know and do so that you'll be happy with and you will get the dog that you want that you envision you know um and that's true because and then if you go to Sport and other things then yeah you want is it going to be a a dog that's gonna need to hunt for things is it going to be a dog that's going to be you know need to excel in sports so yeah you have to look at like you said the end in mind and adjust your your training to that goal right one thing that comes to mind is before you start training know the dog you have right it sometimes and I've I've I've said this on the podcast actually in in a previous episode we've talked about training begins immediately yes that's true I would say more accurately though that it's learning begins as soon as the dog is with you they begin absorbing information from you what do you respond to what do you allow what do you not allow and and things like that so it's more about learning and I'm in a unique situation right now so I've got a young dog I'm working with and I have taken a quite quite a different approach with the dog

I in the past usually I get the dogs in day one boom I'm training I'm luring I'm shaping you know everything has a purpose this time around I've been very like slow getting into the into that process I haven't really I mean I've done some training and we've gone through the motions of doing some stuff but it's been very slow mostly because I'm really curious about seeing what this dog is going to be like what kind of dog he is I I mean I I know the breed right and I I have expectations based off of the breed based off of the P the pedigree but that doesn't account for the individual nature of this dog and so I've wanted to make sure I'm because initially I got him thinking I was okay I'm gonna do this with this dog right but now I'm starting to think actually this dog doesn't seem like he's set up for that yet maybe he maybe he switches maybe he matures he's more suited for something else and so I've actually shifted my focus and started implementing training regiments that are geared in a completely different direction for the dog based off of the dog who is because we want a dog like training a dog is one thing having an obedient dog is great and it's the it's the bare minimum to to live enjoyably with the dog however just because you have an obedient dog doesn't mean you will be completely you may I've seen a lot of owners have obedient dogs that they still don't enjoy the dog does that make sense and and the reason they don't enjoy the dog is because an obedient dog still needs to be given instructions right it's like a robot do this do that you need to direct its focus to to task specific behaviors what people really want and and this is what I do you know in my business like we train the dogs like it's more like a lifestyle and an attitude and and when you train the dog to want what you want of of the dog and from the dog when those two things are aligned that's when you have true enjoyment or true Harmony and that's because I think back on the dogs that I've really enjoyed in my life and man the dog my favorite dog it seemed like everything I wanted him to do is what he was living for he he loved those things that I wanted him to do and we were not at odds with each other and so you're going to set yourself up this is a long story short to close this Loop here you'll set yourself up to enjoy your dog much more when your dog enjoys what you want the dog to be doing in its life and then you train to that outcome right yeah yeah that's I mean that's exactly speaking to that first it's when there's a difference between a dog that is like you said in tune with you and knows like your routine and knows the

lifestyle and is like happy to go along with it where you have like that unspoken like guidance you don't have to speak to your dog and he knows what's coming he knows what is expected of him and he knows what he expects of you right so right which is and the difference is if to make it clear is the difference is say you have a dog that he's still young and you have to put him in the kennel before you leave the house right or go to work or whatever you can have an obedient dog where you have to tell them every single time go to your crate right or you can have a dog that's in tune with your lifestyle that knows that your um when your pattern yeah your pattern means hey I'll be going in the crate out and they end up going there exactly it was the same thing like yeah way back when uh bull was young was a puppy I would get I had uh full full-time job in the casino so 6:00 pm I will jump in the shower to get ready to go to work and at 6 p.m. is when I would put him in his crate when he was young and then I would go and jump in the shower get ready for work go to work well as he grew older and he learned like the rules of the house and I didn't have to put him in the crate anymore like the crate would be open I wouldn't put him in the crate at 6 PM I would go jump in the shower I'd come out and he'd be in the crate on his own yeah right which goes to kind of a like a tangent of training is when you um train even either by just management or on purpose the dog starts doing it on their own without having being told to do it right and that's where um I think in the previous episode where we said are you uh making your dog do something or is he doing something he wants to do yeah you know so yeah that that that is when you have a dog that's in tune and you don't have to speak much and he just does everything because he knows what's coming it's it's beautiful right it's it's the best it's amazing it's it's a rewarding experience that that relationship Dynamic is just I mean it'll it'll leave a hole in your heart when that dog is not no longer with you but on the other on the other hand there are some dogs that need to be always on right we like you like Street I gonna say that I was gonna bring that up but you need you need dog that's like always a hammer everything out there is a nail and they just pound away right that's they have one job and you always want them full gasoline for that job right or a a detection dog a tracking dog a retrieving dog right like dogs with jobs dogs with purpose you want that like that there there is a there is a case to have the Opposites right um but I think there's that's one thing that I remember

um like Bart said a long time ago he wants to have 51% control of his dog right where that dog which means it's like that dog wants to do whatever he wants to do but you just have that little bit of control that when you can tell him to go do what you need him to do right but the other times he's like no I'm going to go do what I want to do you know and that's a different dog that's I mean it's not an easy dog like not everybody can live with that dog right you know yeah because those dogs they know what you expect but until you tell them to do it they're not going to go do it yes and that's the thing too is like when you have that ratio where if this is the 51% of control that the owner has and then here's the 49% of what the dog is doing you have more management required for a dog like that versus when you get bigger and when there's like say it's 6040 or 7030 right then there's less management involved on a dog like that so how do you train a dog from start to finish you have to know first I think key ingredient is you have to know what you want from the dog and then you have to know what the dog wants out of its life in order to bring those two and and and kind of like lasso those two together and that's something that I changed in my training just like you said I changed it where now I just try to observe the dog more yeah not when I'm telling it to do something but seeing what it wants to do when when I'm not uh managing or or under control right because yeah you can go and easily start teaching the sit the down everything right you can immediately you start teaching that but finding out what the dog is or who the dog is first before you start all that is is key and and that's how what I've changed too is look more at the dog right look at it and when I tell people that because I tell like pet clients too um because they want to start like teaching the sit the down everything right away and I tell them like that that's easy later we can do that you don't need it right now you know first you need to learn who your puppy is and first work on all the environmental stuff and the management in the house which really almost doesn't have to do with obedience and rather repetition showing the dog how the daily life is going to be right yeah so to be a little bit more prescriptive for the audience that has the question like hey I'm new new to this I went through a a a trainers program learned the theory of dog training this that but I would like a little bit more descriptive road map so now that brings us to a conversation where we can talk a little bit about some routine steps and things that will

give you mile markers along the way right um for me the most simple and the most thought out training Paradigm I I guess you could call it or construct for how to take a dog from start to finish are the learning pyramids you know the the the Neo learning pyramids and for me those those have Consolidated in it in their most basic parts the key ingredients required to move from start to finish right yeah yeah those give a framework of how to adjust your training as your dog advances right and then where to begin and where you want to end up right um but I think before that is the you have to establish a communication with your dog right yeah assuming that's in place yes but yeah go let's let's dive into that so that people that are just getting started can can uh can have that explained to them well the first thing is communication you need to have uh marker system so that you can precisely um communicate to your dog when they're right and when they're wrong you know and the the thing that we always talk about is ignition you know and the eyes burning like cigarettes which when you see it is there's a big difference in a dog that has that and it doesn't right so starting with the communication part and I like to use a clicker and a verbal marker um in the beginning but the way the thing I've changed with my training though from what I used to I used to just start with a clicker right away just start charging the clicker but now I go back to thinking about something we heard um in the school was be the dope dealer for your dog right and what does that mean be the dope dealer for your dog is giving your dog everything for free in the beginning and the way I think of it now because when we charge the clicker we're thinking about we're using classical conditioning to charge a clicker but what is it with charge with classical conditioning it just it's not just about pairing to signals right Mak an association it also pairs the feeling the dog has for that the known signal and that's where I've changed where now I don't start with a clicker I just go out and start just giving food to my dog for free just giving it without speaking I just show him the food give it to him until he when he sees that signal because that is still a signal that's still a marker when you reach in your pocket and get food out right so the way I've started now is when the dog's looking at me I will reach in my pocket and pull some food out and when I see the the strength in that behavior with a dog when he sees me he comes running then I want to add my marker to that I want the clicker to announce that whole sequence of events of me taking

food out of my pocket and offering it up because then I'm also associating that that feeling the dog has with my clicker you know and it goes back to just you know when you say when do you name a behavior you don't name it till you like it if the dog doesn't have any feeling for you offering it food then the clicker is that's what you're giving to the clicker and I think it's faster if the dog already feels you know has that dynamite in them to charge the clicker then when you have the feeling you want right instead of trying to charge the clicker and get the feeling later does that make sense like yeah I mean it's it's a principle of the science though that the stronger the the the stronger so classical conditioning is the pairing of cues right the stronger one Q the existing or the older que is the faster the the new queue will create that Bond or that Association or take over the meaning of the old que right so like you said you don't want to do it in the beginning right start creating it or the label adding the label the the clicker the tone the the Q you want to wait till that's just like almost predictable so strong it's so predictable right and then that's when you want to capture that moment that that qualitative emotion the feeling the the physiological response whatever it is and that's when you that's what you put on Q because right exactly because like people that have trained other people's dogs what happens you get some dogs that you offer food for free and they don't even want it yeah it just they sniff your hand and then walk away and if you're pairing your clicker to that then what is your clicker going to be worth right it's gonna be worth Jack didly so yeah that's that's the thing it's the the whole and again when I'm training I go back to the same thing does is the desire coming out of the dog yeah if the dog is asking you for hate give me that food and then when you click and it announces yes I'm going to give you that food now the dog is searching for that clicker he wants you to click right it's the same as if you say you use a marker or the clicker to announce a ball is coming too right it would be the same because now that click announces that thing he really wants is coming so you pair that power you add you give that power to the click that is in those things that you're offering your dog yeah so yes you're right to point out that that is the first step in in training a dog getting a a system of communication that indicates to the dog right and wrong or or Target behaviors that you want or find desirable yeah right so and that's where I talk um because you said about the learning pyramid

right which we have the Poo learning pyramid the Napo learning pyramid and the napoo learning pyramid but originally the way I looked at it was that was the beginning but below in the basement of the pyramids is that ignition yeah you can't have a pyramid the communication yeah you can't go into the pyramid without ignition y so there is there's one little step before you get into the pyramid the learning pyramids let's walk through the process of the popo pyramid the popo learning pyramid the positive only positive reinforcement which however you're going to refer to that style of pyramid why don't you take us through that progression well level one is where you always reward um everything you're trying to get your dog to do and hold on for for the people that may not be familiar with what how we structure the pyramids the pyramids are a three level there so imagine a pyramid with three levels you got the base layer which is the largest layer the middle layer which is the intermediate size and then the top of the pyramid is just the tiny tip of the triangle right and so that's what we're referring to as we talk about phases or the levels of the of the pyramid yeah so level one is yeah like you said it's the like if you think about a pyramid it's the the biggest part and it's the part where you're teaching everything and you're you're adding you're adding the love of the behavior of each Behavior you for the dog right you're getting the dog to love each behavior and in that pyramid is 100% reward if you're teaching the dog the behavior 100% reward you're always rewarding every time your dog does that behavior then you you have to put enough repetitions there so that your behaviors are um reliable okay before you move into the level two the second level of the learning pyramid and the second level of learning the Poo learning pyramid is you reward or you don't reward it's like yes or no yeah and another name for the the first level is the always help phase correct like you always help or always pay the dog in that phase and then the intermittent level which is this the second level of the or the second tier of the pyramid is the intermittent phase which is the where as you're about to describe it's intermittent payment yeah and that's why you want the the behavior to be reliable before you move to level two because there sometimes you're not going to pay your dog for that behavior and if your dog if there's no expectation in your dog that yes I will get rewarded for that they can quickly say oh I don't like doing this Behavior anyway and now I didn't get rewarded so I'm not going to do it next time

right and if they don't get rewarded for something they don't want to do that's a reward for Disobedience yep because they didn't want it in the first place correct so level two you have an intermittent reward schedule which means some and it's it's yes or no in this pyramid sometimes you reward sometimes you don't and this is where and it's the same as with the help right um but it it's mostly level two is how you reward the dog and that's where you're going to spend most of your time in with a dog because this also level two is where you create the dopamine in the behavior it's the addiction phase that's where the addiction starts to set right the addiction in the behavior and in the dopamine is released during the queue during your command you know and that's where the dog really you're you're making your dog a gambler like am I going to get rewarded this time right oh I didn't okay I'm gonna get it next time and then this is where you can't go you have to kind of read your dog and not you can't go too fast to not rewarding your dog unless it has the desire to keep going you know and that's the that's the the the art part of it I guess you would say is looking and that goes back to looking at your dog and seeing how they're responding so that you know okay I can push it a little bit more I can do less reward um you know this next session because you want as you move up the pyramid you want to reward less than less and less but keep the dog thinking yes there's still possibility of reward right do anything to add to that no I think most people move from the base layer of the pyramid the learning pyramid so they always help phase they move into intermediate uh or the intermittent phase too quickly the dog isn't quite ready to go to a a variable reward frequency right yeah and that's one diagnostic one diagnostic tool for that is like you said in the in the first level it's always help and if you see that after you give your if you're if your dog if the behavior is on command on Q and you're having to keep helping it get into the Behavior Uh with whatever way you taught right say the lore for example then you shouldn't be going to level two because the dog actually doesn't know the behavior yet yeah or or if you or if you're using luring in so you could be shaping or you could be luring in in the always help or the the first phase of the learning pyramid but let's say you're luring a behavior you're luring a dog to come into a front or or a heel position if that dog doesn't start anticipating and operant performing The behavior before the before the reward is there you're not ready to move into the intermittent

phase of the learning pyramid the dog needs to show you some operant behavior because that that's him pushing you with his behavior he say look I did it now give it to me he has he has a clear understanding that this Behavior brings about that reward and if he's not pushing you with the behavior he's not ready or or or the reward or the the removal of the reward in the intermittent phase or the variable frequency of reward will be perceived as punishing or it might create some confusion in the dog yeah rather than creating Drive which is what we want to see when you go to the second level of that pyramid is more Drive yeah and that's where you can't also you can't be afraid to go from level two back to level one if you see that your dog is not you know where you thought it was yeah you know that's one one thing I I did early on is that I thought well okay I'm here now I have to stay here but if you look at your dog and you're if it's if it's you see it's not understanding then you drop back down to level one and you always help right always reward always help but then say you're in level two and your dog's doing well then you have to start going to level three and then what is level three of the Poo learning pyramid or of any learning pyramid level three or the top of the pyramid is the stimulus control section sorry and in stimulus control that is the the assumptions where a dog is at stimulus control the assumptions are that the dog one knows the Q the Q is it's on Q and the dog loves The Q right in the top of the pyramid in stimulus control we find heart and soul right always on Q with heart and soul that's that is the signature of Nao and so if you're seeing that quality of behavior always on Q you give the que the dog does it and it looks really good the dog's enjoying life then you know you're either approaching stimulus control or you're intim stimulus control um one common misconception or misunderstanding among people that are exposed to the theory of Nao where we talk about the pyramids is a lot of people hear stimulus control and because we use the term stem for electrical stem they assume that stem and stimulus control are synonimous where they're not it it's stimulus control does not mean always under control of electrical stimulation that's not what the top of the pyramid means stimulus is rather synonymous with signal control or verbal Q control right where the Q is what is controlling the dog and not the the threat of punishment or the threat or or the promise of reward right so neither of those two it's not the it's not the carrot nor the stick that get the dog to do but rather

the behavior is the motivating factor in uh in stimulus control that is that is what is commonly misconceived among people that have even been practicing Napo PO for a while is they they don't understand the terminology it's it's not synonymous with electricity and that's why I think a lot of people think that naop posis is an electrical collar system it's not because the top of the pyramid is uh control on Q with heart and soul again you don't have the Carro or the stick to help you it's the dog is driven towards behavior for love of behavior alone now you have options when the dog does with heart and soul you you can always reward the dog you don't have to but you can or if there's by chance like you you mentioned in another podcast that there's always a picture that you haven't trained for so maybe you maybe your dog is in stimulus control but you encounter a picture or an environment that you haven't been in and proofed dog in and now there's a little bit of Temptation out of the behavior and the dog does a known Behavior or doesn't do a known Behavior or doesn't do it well enough then you can deliver a consequence accordingly you know punishment that fits the crime it's fair and the dog will then go back into correct Behavior because it's clear yeah and that's the thing where if you go to to you may have stimulus control in one environment you might be at level three of the pyramid in one environment that doesn't mean you're going to be there for every environment necessarily right because you have to generalize that being at level three you have to generalize that to different places and different environments and different things going on and that's why the first one of the first things I had learned about the pyramids is you you move up and down them you know like an elevator so just because you've reached say level three in stimulus control like you said it doesn't mean you stay there for the rest of your dog's life you know necessarily you can go back down in intermittant the reward right and then go back to no more reward well no more help yeah the the S the term we use for that in dog training is generalization right is so for example right if you have a dog that's well behaved at home but then you go to the park or you go on a trail and he's horrendous right he's barking snarling ground like but you're like oh but he's an angel at home my dog is so good but he kills cats when we go on the on a walk through the neighborhood right then your dog technically isn't a well- behaved dog because he doesn't have that aspect under control in all areas right so it's like you know or another analogy

that I give clients is they're like oh well my does my dog really need this program or this type of training piece of equipment or you know that length of duration well let me tell it to you this way if my kids go to school and at home they're really well behaved but when they go to school and I have parent teacher conference and I I get the report back from the teacher that hey you know um your kids are being really distractive in in class and they're disruptive and they're they're throwing paper airplanes and you know whatever are the kids really that well behaved no they're not being honest with yourself and a little bit kind of breaking your heart to hear this but like no they're not so you have work to do work has to be done before you can assume and really accept and say to yourself that yes I have a well-trained dog or my kids are are well behaved right until you have General is until you have generalized Behavior you don't have reliable or the quality of behavior that you think you do so check yourself and one other thing in stimulus control in the positive the popo pyramid purely positive positive reinforcement period whichever way you're going to refer to it your only option for punishment in pure in positive reinforcement is to withhold the reinforcer and a way and it's we've again we've talked about this here but just it it it begs reiteration that if what you withhold is not a punishment to your dog then it was never a reward to or a reinforcer to your dog it was never strengthening the behavior in the first place and vice versa if if it doesn't reinforce Behavior it can't be used to punish Behavior that's also understand yeah that's very I mean that's important to say and like you said if if you're in the Poco pyramid you can't apply like a punish with a different kind of system so you have to think of the Poo pyramid as a on self-contained system right so it's a it's a langu we talk about it being a language right so if you are using food to teach the behavior you cannot use like a collar to punish when the dog doesn't do that behavior you have to use the same thing the dog learned with food in this case right as a punishment to Disobedience and um that's the thing like when you that's where the the confusion will come in for a dog and you'll see it in different ways as if you teach in one language and punish in another usually they don't know what to do they just and they'll offer a behavior because they there's no clear understanding what that punishment means right they'll stop they'll look at you and then they'll they'll guess something else they most of the time they do whatever has been most rewarded in the

past right right and for pet people it's usually a Sit always a sit for sport people it's usually a heel right right so yeah it's a self-contained the the pyramids are self-contained and that's why we have more than one it's because there's different training languages um so anyway yeah we go all the way to the top stimulus control if the dog doesn't do something they know how very well how to do then you can apply the punishment and in this case punishment has to be negative punishment right where you remove the whatever um reward you're using right anything else to say about that's the first pyramid um the the benefits of that style of training positive reinforcement purely positive positive feelings poo if you're talking Napo naoo terminology you get a lot of Flash the Optics the Aesthetics of how the dog looks are very positive because the consequence of not doing is very mild well it it's it's it doesn't not immediate it it's not immediate it it it can be more than mild I I need to correct myself it can be more than mild it can be very strong but it it doesn't diminish attitude as much as other styles of punishment do right the it's not it's not immediately aversive like um other forms of punishment yeah right to the dog and it's it's actually if if we're talking about food it's gradual right it get it gets stronger as you go along but it it's gradual so it's the way I look at the negative punishment is the dog the it's not something that is aversive to the dog that he wants to avoid the punishment it's it's more where you're the dog is learning to make a different Choice all right let's uh let's tackle the next nepopo learning pyramid which is the negative reinforcement learning pyramid or the Napo learning pyramid so following the same structure we have three levels of this pyramid the base layer the biggest section of and they equal seg their equal segments is the all always negatively reinforce right so in the beginning in the popo it's always help or always pay or always reinforce in this one it's always negatively reinforced and the definition of negative reinforcement is some form of pressure or Sensation that ceases to continue upon completion of a specific behavior which then provides the dog a feeling of positive oh this feels good because that pressure that sensation has gone away and and that is a rewarding event so for example or if I've got a a rock in my shoe right I've got I'm walking with a rock in my shoe until it becomes unbearable and then I remove the Rock in my shoe that removal of that uncomfortable pressure or sensation now feels quite a bit comfortable and very positive yeah and in that case you neg

negative negatively reinforced the removal of the Rock from the shoe so that pain that that feeling that discomfort continued until you finished the behavior which was taking the rock out right so in the future what will happen is if you feel that discomfort again you will more quickly go and do the behavior yes when you removing the Rock from the street right when you and and maybe maybe in the beginning it's a long time that that pressure is there it's present for a while because it takes some thinking to figure out what what is the solution to getting away from that pressure right is it the Performing of a behavior is it taking the rock out of the shoe is it moving locations is it getting off of the couch is it getting your head out of the the the kitchen garbage can right right there's any number of things that require thought process to compute and arrive at the solution that removes the pressure right so in the beginning pressure so in the very beginning the pressure is longer as you go it gets shorter and shorter and shorter until it's just you feel it which causes the action to um the the target Behavior the target action and then it's a quick turnover into the positive feeling where the that pressure has removed right so as you go as you move up the pyramid there's less duration needed in the pressure phase in order to elicit a Target Behavior yeah and the way you do that is as you see the the what's the correct terminology when you see Good Intentions from the dog right if we're talking about training the dog when the dog shows like understanding that's when you start releasing the pressure not when the behavior is finished but as the dog shows intent to do the behavior right and there's different ways to do that you can go for intent you can go for Speed because remember the release of pressure is just like a clicker that's the reward moment and that's the learning moment for the dog and that's the thing too when you look at the pyramid level one or the whole pyramid anyway is you're always moving up even in in the one level there's still levels inside of that right so the bottom of level one is where it's continuous negative reinforcement and as you move up like you said it gets less and less and less until it's a reinforcer of that like the command where it's just a tab because now you know the dog will do that behavior with that q and that cap of pressure right now a couple things to look for to know you're ready to move out of the the always negatively reinforced phase of the pyramid or the the the first step of the pyramid is again looking for the dog's anticipation are they anticipating and pushing with

the behavior right are they expecting you like before you even go to lift up on the leash is the dog starting to sit if the dog is doing that he's starting to tell you he understands and now that's become highly valuable to the dog because he he's it's it's just taken hold with the dog and now you can start going to the intermittent phase where it's a variable frequency of when you add that negative reinforcement and when you don't and yeah you you're gonna say something yeah but in intermittent phase you should not move there until you're at a tap right correct yes so um yeah when you're at a tap and your dog knows exactly what to do but but exactly right like you said the anticipation of the behavior lets you know where you need to continue and the one thing I've changed and the one thing I used to do is before I moved a little bit too fast with the pressure because and and it goes back to the same thing speed comes with understanding right I would put a little bit too much pressure because I felt like the dogs should be advancing faster but that goes back to looking at the dog and understanding where it's at rather than making it do what we feel it should be doing you know and that's why also negative reinforcement is not that burning like the dog has to get rid of it right now that's why we said it's mild discomfort it's something the dog feels and it feels better when it turns off but it's not in a panic mode trying to turn it off right right yeah um and like you said it's important that the the level the dog responds to with the negative reinforcement it must be a momentary tap it must be just a little pressure or a little tap on the button or um something that's very momentary because in negative or sorry in the intermittent phase of the Napo learning pyramid when you when you say and dog does not do then you can apply the tap after the dog has been told or queued but didn't do it then it's a tap and it's just a tap to get him back into it but if you move into intermittent hold on hold on if you move into intermittent before the dog understands to do it on a tap it it'll require what you left where you left the level one at if you leave level one with a lot of stem or a lot of pressure required to get the dog to do then that's the amount of pressure you're going to need as a correction to get the dog to do what he doesn't do after yeah and that's why in level two of the learning the Napo learning pyramid you should not like you said be at the continuous pressure until the behavior happens you should be at that tab um and in level two there's two choices right there's the tap with the command or the no tap with

the command so you give the command with a tap or you give the command with no tap those are the two choices in the intermittent phase of the Napo level two part of the pyramid right and like you said the dog has to understand what the tap means so that if you in that intermittent phase if you give the command without a tap and the dog doesn't do then the tap comes one second later and then the dog should do what it knows how to do yeah and that is also a diagnostic tool for you because if you the dog if you say sit and the dog doesn't sit and you tap and it still doesn't sit then there's something you have to look at is it the environment is it a new environment do you have to go back down to level one and put in more repetitions you know that's the diagnostic tool right there and the thing to remember too is it doesn't the tab that you give with the command the correction doesn't have to be higher it can be the same level because it's right now it's about understanding from the dog but yes that's right so in the intermittent phase in negative reinforcement pyramid or Napo pyramid you have stem with q or no stem with Q it sound that sounds weird when you say no stem with Q you should say Q with no stem or Q with no stem then you get into on once you're there and once you generalize from the intermittent phase then you move to stimulus control where again the dog learns by virtue of the negative reinforcement he learns that whatever behaviors get him away from pressure those behaviors take a lot of value and they they they grow in value in the dogs eyes so it's just a natural consequence of negative reinforcement that behavior becomes rewarding behavior is the ultimate reward because it gives you freedom from the sensation or the pressure and that I for me um you know you see like in the Napo and the Napo po pyramids you see stimulus control is achieved a lot faster because behavior is already rewarding in the level in the learning phase yeah so the difference is between the popo and the Napo or the Napo Po in the popo the dog is doing the behavior in order to get the reward whereas in thepo and Napo well the Napo the dog the behavior is the reward right right and then the the only it's the only reward it's the only reward in negative reinforcement is the relief of pressure and the relief pressure happens because of behavior because of the behavior yeah yes good and then when when you move up to level three which again like you said is stimulus control there is no more tap with the command or the Q but you do have the correction in that and that would be the tap after Disobedience right and the mo the

majority of the time if you're required to use either Carro or stick when you're in stimulus control you're not in stimulus control you're in an imaginary form of stimulus control where you hope to be in stim control but you're really not so you have to look at what is actually happening what am I actually required to do with my dog and that will tell you where where you're at in that pyramid progression right are you in Lear learning phase are you in the intermittent phase are you in stimulus control right based off of what is required to get the dog to do and how the dog does it yeah and one one thing is you shouldn't level three is not for generalizing no right level two is for generalizing level three it should be wherever you are the dog does exactly so if you're a sport sorry like you said because in level three your goal is to not have to use anything it should just be the command the queue and the dog does right Y and and for people in sport or a working capacity you want your work field or your the street you want that to be stimulus control for your dog or the the trial field or the the car like you you want the behavior to be rewarding so that you're not required to use the stick or the ball or carrot to get Behavior to take place with heart and soul yep very nice now once you understand the first pyramid the second pyramid the third pyramid is very very simple right it's a combination of pyramids one and two the positive reinforcement learning pyramid the negative reinforcement learning pyramid you combine those two but here's and let me say this this is yes na poo is a combination of things that have been done for years years and years and years and years right yes however what is distinctly native to napoo is the order of oper ations in which you apply certain forms of the quadrant right so everyone's like you hear this in forums and everything oh there's nothing new about dog training n poo just put a name to it and you know whatever I mean that's a very uh ignorant perspective most of the time thrown out there by people who don't know and what we're saying is when you go to the negative or the neoo learning pyramid you're combining the benefits of negative reinforcement followed with the benefits of positive reinforcement to get a dog to perform Behavior immediately on Q and do it with flash with good Optics and hard and soul right those are the benefits you just you take those two first two pyramids you layer them over each other but you do it in a specific order and I'll let you kind of take it from there because that order matters the order does matter and it's what guarantees and offsets certain

aspects of the training approach yeah well but also there's in order to get that like you like the flashy heart and soul behaviors with the control you have to have a foundation with that pressure right and the reward so that the dog like as Bart would say doesn't look in the right he's doesn't go into the when you add pressure right and that's the thing it's you the pressure leads to something the dog wants instead of it being like something immediately the dog's like oh I want to avoid this the pressure is more of communication to tell the dog what's coming and then for it to be yes later on to be hired to say hey you you still you have to do this but even though you have to do it it's it's still going to be a positive for you right that's why you have to build the dog the foundation with the reward and the pressure and again goes back to dog understanding that's the key is the dog understands what it means how to turn it off and what happens when you do turn it off so walk us through the progression of the nepopo learning pyramid so the Napo learning pyramid is where you start the very bottom of level one is again where you're adding pressure mild Comfort until the dog does the behavior you begin with that you you start with negative positive right NE or negative reinforcement you start that is what you start with correct you start with the pressure right from the the beginning which is that's why we call it the learning phase it's a learning pyramid level one is the learning phase you start with the pressure and because it's low enough and because you've laid a foundation of that pressure it's not demotivating to the dog the pressure continues the dog the behavior happens there's a pause and then you add your reward you know be it your click or your veral marker or whatever it is so that's where the N the negative goes the moment the behavior happens the PO first pole happens there's a pause and then the second poll happens right so that's the sequence of teach and the reason that's important the sequence of Nao is critical if you jumble those and get one if you put the cart in front of the horse meaning the cart is the negative reinforcement and you and and that's that what that's what comes after you pay the so basically it's you pay the dog and then you followed up with negative reinforcement you don't get the benefits of the heart and soul right it's it's the combination where relief of pressure is followed by the paycheck or the reward or the reinforcer it gives you that double that double down that synergistic effect of reward which overcomes and overwhelms any any elements of stress that might be

caused by the pressure that was required by the negative reinforcement right that's why you get the optic and the aesthetic of a dog that does with heart and soul but he does it on Q RI because the this the negative reinforcement causes it to happen and then you eliminate and erase the stressful symptoms with the double reinforcement yeah and then exactly and then because if not then you have like poo like we talk about yeah and not the sequence of NE poo um and then level one as the dog's understanding grows right and as as you're you start rewarding like we said your first reward your first po happens as the dog is showing good intentions and as the dog is getting faster you are releasing the pressure earlier before the dog even does the behavior and then still adding the second Co after and as you go up again moving up the pyramid still in level one when you get to the top that's where again you you add a tap with the command and then dog does a behavior and then you reward so you don't move again you don't move into the intermittent phase until you are at a tap only a tap with the command there shouldn't be continuous pressure um you shouldn't still be at continuous pressure before you move into the intermittent phase right and and a tap again because it's the relief of pressure that is the first reward it's like when that pressure goes away it's like ah and it's like oh I get I get a paycheck I get cash I get you know food toy whatever and so when you go into the intermittent phase from the learning phase of the pyramid now you have options right and in the napoo learning pyramid you have more options to motivate and more options to correct than any of the other pyramids there that that there are I want I wanted to add something before we move on to that and that's where like when you're at a tap with a command that's why we our definitions change a little bit when you're at continuous pressure until a dog does it's we're we're calling it negative reinforcement right when you're at a tap with the command that's where we say that's what we call it's a reinforcer of the command and that's where people talk like it's a go right it's a gas pedal and everything that's where you say the tap with the command is a reinforcer of that Command right so then when you move into level two where you go to in the mid phase that's where you have that little kick okay right so yeah level two what are the options in the level two of the learning pyramid you can use negative reinforcement by itself you can use a signal or a CU by itself you can use negative reinforcement followed by positive reinforcement so n poo

technically yeah it's considered negative reinforcement but just to be clear it's a tap with the command sure right it's not the continuous negative reinforcement until the command happens right the behavior happens I should say for the intents of the audience I think it's it's essentially the same as long as they know you know you're just it's a tap to or something momentary not long duration um and then there's the do nothing option right because you say dog does nothing happens as a result because Behavior should ideally be somewhat rewarding in that level yeah so yeah four choices that you can uh you have to do when when you ask your dog to do something now I've come to think about that a little bit differently too because when we first when we first draw it there's like four equal or there's like four chambers in that level two right okay and there's but there like just four I can't draw it right now but there's four chambers in that that are pretty much equal but technically it's not they're not equal I still look at it as level two there's you're moving up inside of level two also as you move up the pyramid trying to get to level three right and as you move up you are rewarding less and less so less tapping and less positive reward As you move up so that when you are about to move into level three you're essentially at doing nothing most of the time do you understand what I mean I think for the audience and listeners this is a this is where it becomes complicated because this is a visual this is something that's very easily taught through a visual like a whiteboard session it's it's better taught through a visual a visual lesson right so this is where some some of the listeners may be at a disadvantage because the visual nature of the pyramids and and the things that are related there we don't have that support here I I think I have a good way to explain it to make it more like so people can Envision it better so when you first move from level one into level two and you're into the intermittent phase think of it like this when you first move into it like if you ask for your dog to sit four times one time it would be sit with doing nothing one time it would be sit with a tap only one time it would be sit with a reward only and one time it would be sit with a tap and a reward right so it' be kind of equal your four choices would be equal spread out over each time you ask your dog to fit when you're at the top of level two it wouldn't be equal anymore it would be like 75% of the time you would ask for the sit and do nothing and the other 25% you would add maybe a tap or a reward or a tap and a

reward right so because you're trying to you don't want to go from like cold tury go to nothing right you're kind of moving up the pyramid and reducing your reward as you go so that when you step into level three you're not at suddenly okay I'm not rewarding anymore or I'm not tapping anymore you don't want it to be such a drastic change where the dog is like hey wait a second what happened because what what normally you see like I've seen is without people looking at nap PO is they would they would be rewarding their and this is the problem people have when they go like to say a competition right in training they're rewarding rewarding rewarding rewarding rewarding and then they go to competition and all a sudden there's no more reward and the dog's like hey wait a second what's going on and then they lose their dog so yeah you should even in intermittent phase you should be gradually reducing the tap and the reward which the tap is a reward too right right technically so yeah if you go if you go to stimulus control or trial or work where behavior is not the ultimate reward that's where you don't have reliability the dogs that do really well on the trial field are dogs that I can tell you would work the majority of their training session without a toy or a reward opportunity those are the dogs that are going to transfer well onto the trial field yep and um one thing we talk about not since we're talking about like sport dogs right one thing we talk about is also like um paycheck training which is again a different topic but that's where you if you are going to reward you're going to you might you withhold your reward Until the End reward right yeah yep delayed so then okay level three of the Napal code learning pyramid you're in stimulus control and what does that mean means dog is performing behavior when told on Q with heart and soul and behavior is the ultimate reward right they don't care about the carrot like your ball or frisbee is less valuable to them than healing next to you and staring lovingly into your eyes because they just love that relationship the the the the feelings of the behavior they love it right that's what they want it's a bonus it can be it can be good to the dog and a lot of dogs will gladly take the ball so that's like exactly what you said like that's a good way to put it it's a if you reward but in level three we we're not rewarding but L when you if you move back down if you've reached s control and then you go back down to rewarding again the reward is a bonus and it's not an expectation right Y and that's what happens when it's an expectation that's when you you

lose the dog when it's the dog wanting to do it and then on top of it you add a bonus then that's just extra right but then going level three stimulus control with no more tapping and no more rewarding for those behaviors yep signal again it's the name it's signal stimulus synonymous with signal synonymous with q or command control control on verbal q and what happens if your dog doesn't do in that uh level then you have if we're talking the neoo Pyramid of stimulus control you have several options you have more options than any other pyramid learning pyramid or learning construct to use for consequences you can do positive correction which is uh positive punishment you can take something away um or stop the session you can remove them from the rewarding experience or event or you can do comination you can do both the combination of punishing with positive punishment and then removing the the reward or the reinforcing opportunity you can take that away simultaneously and give them a break and let them think about what they did and yeah using the nap language you can give a plus correction you can give a minus correction or you can give a plus correction followed by a minus correction and the reason I say plus or minus is because that's exactly what you're you're doing you're taking something away as correction yeah and that's the that was the first time I like heard about that was because the the combination of the two right right dou never heard that I've never heard that before ever until I heard it in the school yeah well you have double bonus you have double paycheck you have you have you pay with double and then you also punish with double that's whyo is so powerful for those that utilize it correctly yeah and because the reason you can have the double is because in nepopo you have taught with pressure there's meaning behind each of and correct so they understand pressure and they understand reward You' you've taught it was used in the learning phase the pressure and the reward so therefore you can correct with the pressure or you can correct with a reward that's right yeah so that wraps up the conversation I I mean really taking taking training from start to finish requires requires ignition and then putting a dog and yourself going through the motions of the learning pyramid and you may go through the motions of a specific learning pyramid for one behavior and you might use a different pyramid for another Behavior based off of the dog's needs right or the outcome that you want the dog maybe you want a lot of flash for a certain Behavior maybe you don't want a lot of flash for another Behavior you can go in

and out of the different pyramids if you know what you're doing and that is the key for of Naple PO is knowing all the different say systems and using them to the advantage your advantage and using them to what the dog needs yeah right if it's only positive reinforcement pyramid then only POS positive if it's only negative reinforcement pyramid then only negative if it's Naple po pyramid then Naple po pyramid and going back to another episode where we talked about the uses of the e-collar or the ways to implement the e-collar right again if you only want to train with the in the positive reinforcement pyramid and want to add pressure later we have ways of doing that right that we're taught yeah so there ways to implement it so that you can use it as a correction later if you need so to kind of come full circle when I when I when I've been approached by individuals asking me like how do you train a dog from start to finish knowing the theory of dog training now and more specifically knowing na poo how do you train a dog from start to finish I always thought those were funny questions I I I was you know I very respectful obviously because those are mostly being asked from people who don't know or haven't got years of experience under under their belt training actual dogs and training for clients or training multiple personal dogs but the answer lies in in following the the the mile markers of each learning pyramid and that will tell you where you're at along your progression to getting a dog that loves to do a specific behavior if you apply the pyramids you're going to find yourself in a good with a good road map to get to where you want to go and it's it's it is that simple right some people they're like oh well this or that should I lure should I not no you can lure or you can shape using any of the pyramids right and we don't need to go into that because that's another that's another topic another topic yeah like itself the the going the beginning to end of training the start to finish is first you start with the environmentals the communication what language you're going to use to communicate and the ignition then you go into the pyramids which is when you're teaching everything the behaviors whichever pyramid you need for that dog or whichever one you want to be in just right pooo and then once you moved through the pyramids then you're at stimulus control and you are in Valhalla as Bart would say now you are in Paradise in your training yeah but you always have the foundations there of those lining pyramids so if there's a problem you can move back and address the problem and move back into you know the stimulus

control it never hurts to go back to foundations yeah awesome so I think that was good yeah it's a good it's a good one I feel for the audience who are coming from a background where they haven't been exposed to Too Much Nao so this could have been a very difficult one to follow I encourage you to attend you can attend the school online online silver you can go in person when they have the the ones or you can just come to one of the workshops you know that we teach you know I teach uh Na poo outside of the school so I do workshops and seminars in apopo um and you can come learn about it more there get visuals on the progressions and and things that we've talked about those do make a lot of a lot of difference for people to visually grasp these Concepts I'm a visual learner so I teach very visually um because of that and so but but this could have been a very uh difficult one to follow so hopefully we we conveyed the information in a way that was uh digestible and if you have any questions do leave us comments post about it share it with us uh send us a message join our Facebook full quadrant podcast Discussion Group to post your questions we love to respond to those there more important share it you would help us out if if you liked it share it you know share it uh to other people um and that does help us out yeah and if youve if you had a if you had a thought that occurred during this podcast or or an episode this episode sparked some questions about specific behaviors would love to hear about that and would love to be able to point you in the right direction on maybe if you're stuck in a training program or a training progression with a specific dog let us know we're we're it would be helpful yeah always I always offer help nobody takes me up on it it's surprising because it's 99.99% of the time it's free right and still nobody takes me off on it it's funny yeah okay well that was a good episode uh great conversation Mike stay tuned for more guys share share future topics if you guys have anything you want to hear from us about let us know we we love to take uh request Quest yeah if there's something maybe we can go deeper on of what we talked about and want us to focus like on just one thing uh let us know we'll we'll do it awesome well perfect everyone have a great week thanks everybody it's nice to nice to uh be here with you again Mike we'll talk to you soon yep talk to you soon all right see you