개 훈련의 급격한 변화, 이칼라 법률 및 금지 조치 - 에피소드 115, 마이클 & 바트 벨롱 출연

Bible spare the rod spoil the child I am not afraid to give consequences corrections to my dogs I have no emotion when I'm training there is no emotion it's a it's B it's c and this is one of the things I like about your training your philosophy your overall mindset it is a true love because you are in essence looking for the best for the dog not necessarily the easiest path for the person right yes the best outcome the best outcome we like what we like is what we call controlled Freedom we like what we call dog ownership with responsibility that means we have no problem to cut a dog loose but you must be able to recall that dog right a lot of dog lovers are not responsible dog owners yeah and I remember 15 years ago Michael and I will do live in Antwerp close to a very nice green environment okay where everybody that has a dog that does not listen come and let the dog room around yeah Franklin and I we have dogs that do listen and I remember in the old days I had my vicious dog zopt that was listening very well and I saw those is and I saw those dogs coming that don't listen I call back zot immediately I down him and then I gently wave to people and say hey your dog is out of control here I'll be that nice I said no they are not nice they are growling the first up this is not a nice communication yes control your dog and of course they don't listen because they cannot and then I had the secret command and I let them fight for two seconds and then I recalled him immediately there was a screaming going on you cannot believe my dog immediately came back people were cured from that moment so as soon as they saw me coming the dogs were Unleashed I'm sick and tired yeah well imagine that I'm afraid of a dog yeah and imagine that a run away from the dog and a big dog even a nice dog that just want to play with me tackles Me Gently yeah it happened the same I run in the days that I do was doing my physical conditioning I was running around the fort and of course there was a big Irish Setter yapping and the teeth close to my legs I was running around the fort yeah in physical condition and then there was an Irish Setter that was yapping and trying to bite my legs and I stopped and I looked behind me Andrew is a lady and I'd say hey you must hold your dog under control because this is not a nice dog yeah he loves people I said no and I continue running and again the dock in my legs I stop again as a you must go like your dog or you put him on a leash no I like freedom I say okay and I continue my running and the dog is yapping again I grab the dog and I jump with the dog in the water in the window I never forget

and then let him go I never had again but why must I why don't people see that they have out of control dog that should be irresponsible dog ownership because the big problem is created by those dog lovers they are so blind yes in their love that's a fantastic point just right there and they don't have respect for nobody yes that dog that is out of control can kill rabbits can kill hair they don't care yeah yeah no I was just going to say that yeah they they attack other dogs Oh I thought my dog was friendly they can't con if you can't control your dog keep him on a leash if you love your dog because somebody's gonna kill your dog he's going to get shot you know and these are things that people don't look at so um I think that's critical I mean and again like what you said in the beginning of the chat you know these dogs are overweight look at how many children are grossly overweight because parents love them and they keep feeding them but that's not love It's a drama it's drama it is a drama you're a hundred percent Robert another anecdote because you can go on we we both can go on for days 15 years ago and I did calm down a lot 15 years ago and always that dog was roaming around in the woods close to where we live and nobody to see and then of course a little bit later I see the person I say man in this case was a lady you should have Governor control because this is a wood where people come with dogs children no it's free I say okay and then one day I saw that dog again and I saw no owner and I took the dog and I did bring the dog to our place in our kennels very well eaten water food everything and then three hours later I hear the lady screaming for a dog lookie lookie and then she came ring to my place and she said uh sir did you see a dog and there I did lie I said yeah I saw somebody stopping they saw a dog while then I think they went to the police or to the SPCA I don't know what the lady in a panic you cannot believe and of course I did bring that dog to the place it had to be so from that day a person was cured yeah why must we do things like that so it's sad yes it's sad and it's not good for the dogs either yeah and then those dogs come later in the hands of a person that must train them because the owner never trained them on purpose because they want a free dog yeah but they don't understand that freedom has a price and the price is controlled yes there is no other way well I mean that is kind of the perfect place I want to go because I the one thing I I you and I have talked about so much and I admire about you is in my opinion you're the most knowledgeable person on the e-collar right we've

talked about this for 12 we've had these conversations over and over for 12 years about how it works why it works and you have created the um the best e-call but now you're off to the side again um you know your your caller I think is fantastic the the Martin systems you is your company now but the um the chameleon the the micro b your technology ideas like this are very futuristic and we want to get into that but what I want to start with is the idea of where the e-collar started and why it's such a powerful tool why it is a tool that if you love dogs if you really love them if you care about them and let's let's equate love not being as much emotional about but being more caring I want to do what's best for the person or the animal that I love responsible responsible is a great word Michael yeah um because people say oh if you put an e-collar on your dog and you you you fry them you don't love them and I agree with that if you fry your dog on an eagle you don't love them you're stupid but you also don't love them if you put them on a harness and let them pull you around so let's talk about one the evolution of the e-collar because I've seen you on on a few podcasts and this is something I think no one's ever tapped into your mind from this level because you're in you're an engineer you're a dog trainer you're you're incredibly smart man but I want to talk about those pieces that make you click well let's say that historically first of all I'm not an engineer I'm a sport no I know her but you're an engineer like you think you think that's Electronics right okay you and I think like that Michael and I work with smart Engineers that can realize what we dream about now historically I think that around the same timing in USA and in Europe both different countries but continents is a better word sure in the 1960s in Europe there was a veterinarian in Germany a Dr checker and he was sick and tired to do surgery during hunting seasons on dogs that were disobedient and for that reason did receive what they call the pigeon shot in the ass so that was the brutal way of stopping them and it worked well but it had consequences the doctor had to do surgery and he said well there must be a better way and he invented that big Checker color that on two sides quite heavy and when you push the transmitter three seconds later the dog received a very high output and of course it was meant for dogs with high drive that new the command to stop that was in 1960 the Checker e-color and the name for that device became tele tucked and from there the name teletax during the same period in the USA there was the tritonics and the radatron

e-colors around the same period and again invented four Hunters so it was the hunting world that had the high drive dogs and of course the hunters had a little bit money and a little bit smart people some of them and that's how it came around and also it's very dangerous for those dogs people who don't go hunting with dogs don't know that but when the dogs are on the wild boar and the wild boar they get too close they're a lot of dogs are killed yeah every year and of course people that are opposed to this ideas say a dog should not hunt so that's their explanation yeah well without the off leash right or whatever yes yes and it means that for hundreds and hundreds of years dogs have been selected and been worked and then people with you ideas say well a dog should not hunt a dog should have no passion because that's the hidden agenda of animal right people not of animals welfare people animal right people do not want to have animals under human hands not domesticated animals is the ultimate agenda and they hide themselves under the skin of animal welfare and always promote little animal welfare drama queen things and then at the end of the message there's always something and we need money for our battle in la la la yeah it's a very politically and monetarily driven Movement we know that right nobody is in it nobody's in it for the benefit of the animals they're in it for the benefit of the wallet all these big you know uh I'm not going to say I'm not going to mention their names but we know who they are the commercials on TV the sad dog the shelter there none of that money by the way I know is going back to the shelters going into the pockets it's going into advertising and marketing and [ __ ] right well 100 you're 100 Robert Michael and I we have no problem that people make money but just say of course no be honest yeah there's no problem so without money we cannot survive I mean we all make money we make a good living yeah of course of course yes but to go back to that history of the color the television yes I did see as a young guy 1974 I started in dog training and in those days the idea was and I started dog training with bite work in Belgian ring Sport and what people must understand is the only breed with dogs that bite they don't breed with dogs that out so genetically there is already um yeah a good out of What Not used so and then the old mentality was the dog must learn to bite learn to bite learn to bite and not learn to out and then slowly when the dog was two years they slowly they tried to make him out by giving unpleasant feelings but always not enough so that the dog did win and the

unpleasant feelings became part of the game and the dogs became so tough you cannot believe if you do it on purpose to make them tough you cannot copy that system right right right and then it's impossible and then they went for those electronic colors and there I did see that dogs did receive three seconds too late the stimulation timing was no good then I did see when the helicopter of the police or the CB of the police was speaking they were zapping the dog so the radio channels were not cleared me I was a big opposite of e-colors for that reason because I did see a lot of misery I did see the bad things until until in 1986 I did buy the dog named flip and I did buy flip from a guy that was seven times Belgian champ ring Mr Jeff news so a guy that knows how to train dogs yes once a month I went there to buy and sell dogs because I always in the old days was a little bit making what we call mommy extra money jumpy money and when I was at Jeff and I was always there with buyers and I was going between and then at the end Jeff always asked me hey Bart do you have time and then I had to put on the suit for 10 dogs and one of those 10 dogs was flip I never forget it and when everybody did do the deal I said okay Jeff now for me and then he looked to me like huh you I say yeah because I was a young kid 26 years old and I was out of gambling worlds and then he asked me which dog and I said flip and then he said immediately I never forget it hundred thousand belgians from and I said immediately sold but how much is a hundred thousand how much what is that converted to US dollars nowadays it would be two thousand five hundred dollars okay 1986. I think to make that money you have to work four or five months with no expenses or more now twenty thousand dollars right minimum minimum okay got it minimum and then so without hesitation I said is sold and then Jeff looked to me for three four seconds like huh where do you get that money and then he said tomorrow I come back with the money and then he said but I need also 10 stats from that dog and I said no problem you want it okay and then there became my training craziness because that dog knew every trick he was totally out tricked he knew competition he was deaf you cannot believe and then one day on the training field there was a guy named luceni and luczani had a old radatron a little battery with the color and I saw that and I say hey Lou that's a good thing can I have it for my training it's a bar that's too expensive I said look if I break I paid immediately and I showed him the money and then I could use that thing that dog was outing and obedient

everything perfect so from that day my opinion changed immediately and by the way the guy became Belgian champagne yes hundred was a monster untrainable and of course if you look today it was not looking very fancy because it was based on yeah but from that day I changed my mind and from that day I implemented the e-collar in more and more exercises than only the out for example what I learned there I never forget it flip was a top jumper but he liked to do the cut crawl you put him on a jump because he was so excited to go biting because he was smart after bite work after jump work comes bite work yeah we wanted the devil chain to go faster and faster so I did catwalk to go faster to the jump and I did not want that and then one day I was sick and tired of it and I gave him a correction without preparation for stay there and what did he do he did fly to me at the speed you cannot believe because that's what he learned I stopped the e-color by coming back to Papa so there I learned whoa when you learn the E Colo you must immediately do opposite behavior and so on and so on so the whole thing changed there and my opinion changed because I needed it that day and it was immediately cured now in those days we were not gentle kids when we did train dogs it was a quite rough game now by that with that tool I changed the whole philosophy and it became beautiful it became Harmony and then I thought to myself and now you use your brains because I was a sport teacher and during the sport teaching we did receive psychology and in Psychology we learned about Pavlov operand conditioning Skinner I never forget it for me it was like a revolution hey folks we did not have internet in those days nothing I don't know and we did not we did not travel to other countries when we traveled to another City it was already a big trouble you know I mean you must see everything in their context and then that's historically how I changed from being aversive against e-commerce to a fanatic user and propaganda of e-course and then late 80s came on Market the brand innotech the little blue colors from Greg van curen who is now the big boss from ecolo Tech and that little device oh was so nice you cannot believe so and there we became a dealer of innotech and after a while I even worked for innotech okay as a sales guy and it took the guys at innotech did see that I even would work for free because I was full of passion for that thing you know and yes we did create a big big big Market in Europe and because you're so crazy about your own use you are not seeing that there is also abuse from people that have no clue what they do so

and that's what Michael and I did see over the years by being on the road we did see that whoa by giving seminars we don't reach enough people by doing seminars we are trick Masters it's not about the system it's just about a quick fix and we did not want to be the quick fixes we want a very stable system and that's why we went for the school we had the school and then by accident Martin's system came for sale and we did purchase Martin's system I also wanted to say there's uh that you can see abuse and misuse and lack of education and e-collars but there's other ways to be unfair it's not just e-collar so we see the same with the clickerer we see people just clicking and the dog doesn't know what's going on man right I mean and and what what we did see in the old days was we were very good mechanical trainers we knew what the chocolate was we knew exactly what the pinch color was we knew exactly how to control dogs with the whip and with the leash and with the leash we were very typical trainers yes and if your dog understands the mechanical work and especially pinch color work the chance that the dog will understand e-collar work later is quite hundred percent quite there is one difference there is no more leash involved for the dog it is like the magic hand of God it's not personal it's not personal I mean the only thing I always say to people too though and again I see I see more abuse and again you and I talked about this there are statistics everywhere and one of the statistics that I got a hold of was from the Los Angeles City shelters where I worked for many many many years when you and I first started talking um and not working for them but working with them I want to be clear on that the most the number one abuse in animal dog um ownership is neglect right so it's not even the idea of putting something onto the dog like hitting abusing whatever it's completely abandoning the dog so that's the biggest abuse that we see in dog ownership now we can see abuse with E colics and this is kind of I want to touch on this with you if a person puts an e-collar on a dog and hits the dog just shock shocks at the dog is going to run away so that's a problem when they don't understand how to introduce it how to condition the dog and all that um my concern is more that people are constantly trying to ban this tool right they're trying to Bam go ahead Michael for a second it's just that because people are going to keep using it and as you said they need education yeah if you make it illegal they won't get education yes and they will exactly and that's my point did not work too people made alcohol and they drank it yeah and

nothing worked look drugs are illegal you know gambling child pornography all these terrible things are illegal but people do them if we can keep the e-collar legal we can keep it from being abused because people like yourself myself other good trainers will be able to educate people on the Forefront say here's how to use it right yes but let's talk about this if I pick up and again I'm a big fan of the Martin caller I'm not going to make any misgivings about that I've used it for many many years I've used a lot of other I've used almost every brand in between there's something special about the Martin callers and it's I think it was into when you came aboard um and you started really refining this the sensitivity the in and the the contact the contact measurement there are so many Tools in this it's in other words I think most e-collers are archaic right it's a button you push it it shocks and that's it and now it can be used I'm not saying Garmin and dogtra e-collar Technologies can't be used properly but the refinement of the tool that I see in your collar makes it an iPhone as opposed to the old phones you have to you know that you had the big thing you carried around with you there's a big difference to your phone that's because we've paid for Innovation right but let's talk about that yeah well let's talk about the technology before going there Robert what people must know is I did work for innotech and it was in 2004 and around 2006 if my memory is well innotech has been purchased by Radio Systems which is the Sporto brand which is pet safe and I was one of the only guys taking over by radio system and one of my jobs at radio system was to do Market investigation in which is the e-cola brand that could be a big threat for the Radio Systems brand so I did buy all the e-course from all the companies you know which brand came out number one huh Market systems and I'm a Belgian guy I even did not know from their existence because it's a very small company that's how I did find out and then you'd brief that to the big bosses but they did not like to hear yeah of course so they did not like to hear that there was a little stinky company from a little bird Hunter and one engineer in a in in a old chicken pen that does do a very nice tool you know but he did he had e-collars not well e-collars uh GPS collars for hunting birds so his big thing was hunting birds and then it started with hunting birds and then moved to dog collars but yeah what people always forget when they speak about e-colors well there is a big family of e-colors there is the anti-bark with the invisible fence and there is the e-core so that's the big

family yeah and in Europe the lobbyist did make a deal so that for the moment in a lot of countries defense is still a goal United Kingdom recently they proposed fence ago barking a bit ago and the remote a no-go and what people must realize is that the big companies do full distribution and full distribution means they sell to a wall seller that sells two thousand shops thousand stores sure and they need packaging and easy stuff and whatever ninety percent ninety percent of the sales are bark Inhibitors and fences now you must know that that means that we sit on a negotiation table about the future of e-colors and you have Advocates that want the continuality of the product and then you have the knowers that want everything gone which is Animal Welfare sure animal rights now yes animal right people and that's the negotiation table and the big players they know exactly how to negotiate you must have in mind I wanna save everything but I'm prepared to lose something to make the other party Happy who's a baby so what was the outcome in Europe the outcome was well let's make everybody happy and let's save the bark inhibitor let's save defense and let's kill the remote by killing the remote you make animal welfare happy so they have a trophy to go home and say look we have a victory no more e-colors with the remote and the big distribution companies are happy because they still can make money make money which is normally I understand their position very well but that's the game that is played and then there is another thing that people don't know Robert yeah it's very important Animal Welfare falls under the minister of agriculture agriculture is a very strong portfolio right in Europe and also in USA yes that means that if they prohibit the ground fence and if they accepted the cattle fence there is a kite of precedent they say whoa we cannot prohibit the ground fans and let the other fans as a go-go right the president that every strong lawyer will win of course and that's what people don't understand and this is the game that is played so and it has nothing to do with the output because the output of the bug Inhibitors and the output of the ground fence fence is the same on the maximum level as the e-color that you hold in your hands with most people don't do a maximum so I mean it has nothing to do with the danger of the tool because they must and and that's what people don't grab I've been sitting in those negotiation tables I know exactly how they played the game okay but let me ask you that question you've been on those tables right so yeah and you you are a manufacturer so here's my thought

process I would think as a negotiator I would say okay they want to ban everything I'm gonna I'm gonna the sacrificial child is going to be the e-call of the remote caller I'll give them that I'll keep the bar crawler I'll keep the fence in in my thought I would think well this is a stepping stone for them they're going to take the e-collar then they're going to go well it's also cruel that the dog is shocking himself when he's barking I want that gone so why don't these manufacturers right it is coming it's what I'm saying why don't these manufacturers because look the bottom line is I think what we talked about early on in the chat they want to get rid of dogs as pets that there's no doubt I mean Ingrid Newkirk of PETA has said that blatantly I'm not telling anybody anything they don't know she does not want a pet that's it which is why they kill more animals than they place but I'm not gonna I don't want to get into that topic it's a whole different podcast but now here they also don't want people eating meat right the animal rights people the Animal Welfare people are different they understand okay we should give the chickens enough room to cluck around so we can get their eggs and we can eat them I again I was a vegetarian for over 10 years I I eat it I eat meat now I love eating meat I don't eat meat because I want to kill animals but I didn't invent the system I have to stay alive right so they take that up with somebody else my my question is why don't manufacturers because they're going to lose the e-collar they're going to lose the bark collar they're going to lose the fence it's all going down the line why don't they just stand up now and say no it's not cruel we're going to put more studies money behind studies and we're going to fight it why well it's a very good question with a very long answer okay are you ready sure love it so historically ekma has been founded in 2004. you can tell people is Association the E colon manufacture Association because in those days in France there was Red Alert in the hunting world because somewhere in the low text was written it is forbidden to use electronic AIDS in the hunting action in France but in France but the electronic Aid was meant on the walkie-talkies that the post did speak with each other hey there is hair coming there be ready they thought it was unfair that was unfair and it was making hunting too easy that was the original idea of that text of course it came in the hands of the green parties and when there is written Electronics it's easy so there was a low proposal in what they call general which is the chamber where they proposed the new laws and it was a big

Panic from all the e-collar manufacturers and the first time that I saw a front line was in 2004 it was the first meeting from all the companies that were interested in Europe they were all there you know Tech radio system the only player that never was around the table was tritonic which is Garmin okay never all the other players were there and then the enemies sitting around the table and I never forget a meeting in France the minister of Agriculture did invite all the stakeholders stakeholders mean the probe and the cons and I still I was sitting beside the minister of Agriculture I never forget it and I was there with a pile of dossiers in scientific studies in la la land and then I saw the most chaotic meeting of my life they were throwing stones from all sides and I did hear at my left side the minister speaking to her colleague and said what I'm I happy that a certain Mr Terry Costa was not there I never did hear the name of that guy and five minutes before the end of the meeting that gentleman came in dressed like a movie star and he said okay I see that you guys did start without me my name is Jericho I'm the lobbyist of the hunters I do represent 1 million three hundred thousand happy dogs from Happy hunters and then he pointed to everybody and you in that deal I gave you 2 million and you how many happy dogs you have unhappy dogs two thousand well we have one million and so much happy dogs shut your mouth he knew dirt on everybody after five minutes he said well everybody think we're on the same page Minister I should like to hear that from now on the e-color is allowed again during the hunting action thank you and if not we put the bomb on Paris I never forget it that guy was the lobbyist from the French Hunters Jerry costs so no signs he had dirt on everybody because he's also and he was also and he still is the lobbyist for the agriculture in France and they are afraid of that guy because he knows on everybody and that's the first time in my life that I said to myself I will never never never come in a meeting again without knowing exactly who is that how many people are behind I understood that passion means nothing it's about how many people are behind you and how brutal you are in meetings yes it's information it's really information you have to have dirt yes but you know in that same in that same idea if you think about in this kind and I want to get into Europe in a minute because I know you know a lot about Europe where I think Germany Switzerland Belgium France all these countries have lost they acquiesced so quickly to all these animal rights crazies they lost they lost the prong collar they lost the

e-collar they lost the crate they lost the slip lead and they will they're trying now they're got this move where they're trying to ban protection dogs you know the sports they took they're trying to take the stick hit away they're doing every single thing to to deteriorate not only the sport but the actual character the drive of the dog in America right you would agree with that right Michael yes right so but in this country the one thing that kind of is saving us and nobody's looking at this is the hunters the NRA the people like the pro when the rodeos they came in to shut down the rodeos the P the PBR the pro pro um Rodeo Tour was like no we're not giving it up it's not cruel it's our culture it's what we've done and we will continue to do it where did Europe lose their their way where they lost I know very well the European mentality but you must understand is that but you must understand is that there is no front line from the manufacturers and there is no front line from the dog trainers the dog training world is divided in tribes tribes it's Tribal fights yes and the tribe that for the moment has to say is the tribe that annunciates we do everything with only positive reinforcement they preach water and the drink wine behind the corner because that's what we know and then they could achieve by making their lows accepted and for example what people don't realize is in a country like Germany if they catch you with the e-collar you can go in jail the maximum penalty is five years if you kill a person the minimum or the maximum is seven years are we laughing yeah and there is another thing where people don't know the maximum Financial penalty can be 25 000 Euro now you understand why a lot of European people that use it are what we call the silent majority and then there is a very vocal minority the sea girls that screams for a whole Army they poop for 10 armies and when there is a lot of dirt and [ __ ] they fly away and it's the silent majority that must clean it up and that's how we did lose the whole thing all the federations are sport people nobody uses it if Michael and I reveal all the invoices everybody hangs sure well we will never do that because that's not our style of course of course what the hell is going on in this world yeah if all the top people would speak what they do and they do it well because the dog is in harmony they do nothing wrong right yeah so if they all speak free we would have a Frontline but there is no front line there is none the only guy that I know that dares to speak about e-colors is hell motorizers yes but he also has the money to protect his ass and he loves conflict yes and he's very

well known about this subject and I know Helmut with Michael we know him very well so that's the only guy in Europe that dares to speak open and Frank but we know right we know for sure I mean and again you know personally because of your business and I'm not going to mention any names but but it's obvious when you look at the top competitors in Europe there's no and I always say this there's no secret in dog training you're a great trainer I'm a good trainer this person's a good trainer there's different we have different accents but we're teaching the same language right we're teaching communication with the dog when we use something like an e-collar and we use it properly we use it fairly to communicate with the dog to give them a fair signal and the the answer to it also is an e-collar can be used in a much lower level of Correction than can a flat collar because it delivers information more effectively these other people like you say there is no front line and do you think I mean in in a way it's gonna it's gonna upset a lot of our friends in Europe but I don't care do you think the Europeans have lost their backbone they've lost their their their balls let's say to actually say hey you know what this is the right thing to do you know when people stood up against the Nazis it wasn't really popular and people are going to say oh you're equating this to Nazis but no I'm equating argument to argument if something is wrong yeah well I mean the dogs will be massacred in in thousands we know that that's happening all over let me jump in here yeah the dogs were used in World War One to pull the cart from and before that the dogs were used at the farm it was the horse of the poor people at the Docks the dogs were used to pull carts in the boats where there was not too much space and so on and so on and of course yes there's a lot of pictures and a lot of books about that actually so the dogs were working and had the working function in an economy that needed dogs to survive sure the dog was not a luxurious product the dog was a co-worker on the farm you must see it in that context and then after World War One and now I speak for Belgium there was a minister of Agriculture that was married with the president of and that was a lady in those days men did married ladies and he was married with the president of Animal Welfare and she did find it very cruel that dogs had to pull the cart because dogs pulling they make a noise yeah so she had problems with that she did not have problem that people were also pulling and pushing and of course there has been abuse there is always abuse of course but it was not the rule

and because she had the connections with her husband she did the chief to Ben or she did achieve the fact that a new law was installed it is forbidden for dogs to pull the cart the next day 500 000 dogs were in the ditch with a stone around the neck because there was no economic function for them in the name of who Animal Welfare 500 000 and that's gonna happen now with the e-collar with the e-color band there will come and then on all dogs with motion a genocide a genocide will come in the name of Animal Welfare are we joking and that's what all those animal lovers that push us for those lows some of them are used some of them know it most people don't know what's going on behind the screens a big genocide on dogs with motion because we all know that if you train a dog only positive it's not easy it's a very dedicated job to control a dog with a piece of meat or Bowl against the hair that moves or against the cat and so on and so on that's the reality so they did the people that are against e-colors they know exactly that you cannot control them with only positive reinforcement and that's why they don't want dog with motion and that's why they don't want one dog with bite work because when a dog that does bite work out for a piece of meat well the dog is not biting right right not biting we know that so and they know they also know that I had a friend in Belgium and I'm not gonna name names and he was the first Belgian guy to be receiving a diploma from the University of Utrecht which was in Holland and in those days Utrecht was the first to give a behavior University degree and he told me Bart there is a hidden action from these behaviorists they don't want to have dogs with bite work they don't want to have dogs with animosity the hidden agenda is no more dogs in hands of human beings and all the steps to achieve that is and it started with no stick in the bite work a soft stick in the bite work yet today there is no more stick in the bite work the jumping lower and lower and so on and so on every sport gets higher and further a little thing the first Tarzan in the movies was Johnny Weissmuller Johnny maestulo was a big strong guy now in every team in the world there is a lady from 14 years old that swims faster than Johnny Weissmuller but we in dog sport we go lower and lower and lower in everything makes no sense yeah makes no sense it's it's critical I I agree with you I agree with you again they're also breeding softer dogs they're they're you know they're calling out dogs that are too too hard as well [Music] in the old days for bite work we never detect the pup that came to people never that was the no-go we never

did pick out a pup that was running behind prey never we did take the pub that was a little bit beside and we we need the protection dog a real protection dog in those days a dog that protects you from nature and does not protect you in a game that was our idea today we are 20 years later 30 years later we see the opposite yeah we only take the dog the pup that comes to human beings and we only take the pup that is crazy on prey and there is a holocaust already on all the dogs that don't have those instincts I come out of the sport world I know that exactly yeah if the pup at six weeks old is not putting the pencil up and moves the pencil they don't take it it's out outranged yeah so there is a holocaust going on already behind the screens on the dogs that have no dopamine the Nom dot paminated dogs because the dopamine dog you can train very well yeah positive reinforcement and now and then you give a plus correction that nobody does see that's how the sport people do it eh yeah I'm gonna say one thing because a lot of my my Jewish friends my wife's Jewish um they take real offense to saying Holocaust because the Holocaust really refers to six million people who were killed just because they were Jews so I'm gonna I want to just get I want to take that word out of the conversation but okay it is and I know I know you're sensitive to it too I'm just saying people the word gets you a lot and I don't want to use it because it is a sensitive issue I studied so anyway but what I want to talk about is there is a mass you know whatever we want murder program against these dogs and it is it's an agenda driven thing and it's complete BS you know because people don't care about these dogs they're breeding softer dogs also you know I want to since let's let's rattle some feathers okay we can do this Bart and Michael remember a while ago that podcast came out and and I mean I I hope we can talk about you know Martin Ritter in Germany he's the comedian who has a dog training schools and he was saying oh all this you know Newt football oh is he really a charge of dog licenses yes you must go to his school well first of all you know here's the thing if you have this kind of person just like if you have Caesar Millan running it here or Victoria still we're running in England and I'm I'm not casting any aspersions here's my issue with it every good dog trainer I've seen whether it's you me you know people we know you know they're not going to criticize other people right but to come out and to say because one of the things he said in the podcast in his podcast because I listen to it it's all in German I speak

German well I know you do as well Bart he said oh these dogs are horribly dangerous you know you you they will bite you and and I've been in the sport for you know as a as a fan and a somewhat participant for 10 12 years you've been doing this for many many many years and I've had people on the show who are military trainers Steve Stoops um uh you know a Shannon uh Shannon many many people do you in your opinion feel that any of these dogs and I'm saying the sport dogs today Belgian ring French ring igp mondio ring any of these sports do you think these dogs are sport dogs they're having a fun time their Handler or they're sorry they're equipment specific or do you think there's real aggression there well let's say that depends on the dogs and sometimes for dogs it's hard to find the difference between training and reality okay an example I go the opposite way please years ago years ago the Belgian ring sport the French Fringe sport can TV was the place to be to buy police dogs army dogs and so on and so on in despite the fact that they were trained on tools which is equipment costumes right we had a type of dog that did not need a costume so it means that we are the type of dog that had a little bit dirtiness it's like you have people that are good in Judo karate whatever as long as they are on a tatami where the other side there is a person doing the same sport yeah but when they're on the street and there is a holdup going on they don't dare to move because they don't have that real dirtiness we see the same in dogs so it means that an example years ago I do sell a dog to COBRA and Cobra is Special Forces police of Austria and you must remember it was in those days where the Olympic Games Were disturbed by terrorism yep you remember that Munich I do remember so all of Europe and in the whole world anti-terroristic agenda was number one and they needed dogs and so on and so on so we sell a very good dog to the Austrian cobra and then happens something there was a hostage going on where Turkish wolves which is an extreme group out of Turkey were hosting people you know getting people hostage how do you call that um taking them hostage special police comes and those guys were specially trained for that then make the window exploding and they throw that dog in and the guy that was doing the host edging was on his knees and had the phone on his head and the dog did bite him in the face and it squeezed the whole head together the ostrich was soft no no blood nobody did die the only person that had big damage was the gray wolf which was now a wolf with a half head and from that moment the Press was on it

and they did hear the damage and from that moment they said whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa in the future we're gonna use our weapons we're gonna shoot and the damage of the bullet is much less than the damage like this dog did do so I mean these were dogs trained for the sport that immediately catch him in reality like that but those are special dogs yes with my Belgian dog flip the Belgian jump I was champ in 1992. I'm coming home and I had a little red car I never forget it and I opened my car and I was living in the city and then there was a guy running full speed and he throws a plastic back under my car and at the same moment I hear a lady screaming catch the teeth catch the teeth and me without thinking I take my dog flip out of the car on and that dog did smell like smells Fair pheromone the fear pheromone in his life and he did track the whole thing unleash and at a certain point we come and in those days it started we come in a passenger Zone where the restores where no cars are there was hundreds of people on the streets and I did see the people flying out of each other and my dog was pulling me because I had him on a leash until he stops in front of a store where they sell big televisions I never forget it and I was thinking what the [ __ ] is going on here and he pushes through the door I go in and my dog pulls and there is one person in that room and he's with his back to me and by coincidence I say hey you and the guy turns around and he was sweating in the middle of the winter my dog wanted to kill him and that was a nice job my dog wanted to kill him and then two seconds later five seconds later there is another gentleman coming in and say oh colic I take over I was looking college so they were thinking that there was a silent yes that was a real cup that was a real undercover cup and he was thinking that I was also but this guy explained a little bit and then he touched him and they did find that thing 20 different passports and then money and so on and so on anyway I was in the newspaper and I did receive from the mayor in those days uh thank you letter from a heroic uh event and blah blah blah do nothing but that dog from Instinct did get that truck immediately and he was never trained on civil right never never never because everybody could touch him yeah yeah no I agree with you but that's that's obedience or tracking or something like that I mean I I'm talking about the underlying aggression right do you think dogs nowadays especially the sport dogs if you looked at the fmbb the I the you know the world championships with any of these sports do you uh do you honestly think those

sport dogs those dogs that are competing pose a danger to an average person or a child or anything like that I mean they're I I'm not absolutely not no and there is also another thing at today's today all those dogs go through a test and so on and so on I remember when I was competing in the old days that's years ago it was when before going on the field the judge had to touch the testicle of the dog you see you got two testicles there was a drama it was a fight going on you cannot believe or chip control my God yeah there is a a lot of people who do Sport and want to see a more aggressive bite uh bark or a more aggressive stance and that's the reason why a lot of people do Defense work but in our opinion dogs either have it or they don't have it if you try to put it if you try to put it in for a dog that doesn't have it you're gonna make a schizophrenic crazy truck yes sure that's true but yeah a lot of dogs like our our dogs we would you know it's spontaneously when they're ripe and when they're older we never do defense we have the blocklines that do it automatically yes sure and then sure there is another thing if you see training today where there is a lot of Defense we are thinking whoa genetically they took out the defense and Postman barking on purpose on purpose and trainings wise they bring it in again and yeah yeah it doesn't make sense it's like taking a mouth lab and making a bite work yeah it's it's yeah that's a very good conclusion yeah a lot that has been selected over the years to have a soft mouth and the selection was not nice and sweet to have a soft mouth only the soft mouths did survive in the Springer world the spring are the same thing if they ask me Bart let do you let my Labrador or my spring espanol bite I say no because I don't want to bring in what other people did select the dog out of I don't want to bring it in for generations and generations it took to get rid of it right yeah what was the point so in the process like you said the process was not pretty right and that's something we're not looking at today and it's something you and I have talked about you know the old days the dog didn't cut it the dog went in the bucket right now every dog the dog has three legs a cleft palate and one eye we're gonna find the dog a home the dog is horribly aggressive we're gonna find the dog a home and we're not doing dogs any favors by being you know but by maybe what we said before by loving them because this is a misguided love right this is this is people who I mean this is going to be really unpopular it's people who go into jails my father was murdered so I have a right to say

this if you go into a jail and you find people who have murdered people and you're going to rehabilitate them and whatever I got a problem with it if you have dogs that are dangerous I worked in shelters there's certain dogs I said kill that dog kill that dog kill that dog because you're not doing any favors taking them out there's so many nice yeah right you know nice ones that you can save why spend times as much you know as a professional as a professional in the beginning you need money and I was in that situation so I did accept aggression jobs at the end I did see that most dogs were not aggressive at all they just needed clear rules some manners and better habits better habits and the trainer must be busy or the owner must be busy with the dog because if for weeks they don't look to the animal like you said that the animal is in the garage alone it's neglect there is neglection and yes so and then very fast we did see that hmm the aggressive most of the aggressive dogs are not aggressive but they need a handle that can handle them and we did see that in within a few weeks the dogs were handling perfect and went back to the owner but after a while it becomes sloppy again so from that moment if we did not need the money anymore we said we don't do aggression work anymore and yes there is some crazy crazy dogs that must be put asleep there is something wrong genetically yeah and there's also a saying my dog is very aggressive and they're actually not and then you get people to say my dog is friendly and they're actually not those are the ones yeah yeah those are the worst ones yeah yeah for sure yeah my dog's friendly you know a lot of things I've seen too is dogs for the most part are going to be fearfully aggressive lack of socialization lack of experience and stuff like that dominantly aggressive dogs from what I've seen in thousands of dogs I've seen through the shelter in my private thing they don't there's a couple you know that where they're actually going to really tear you apart the rarest real rare psycho monsters yeah yeah but just like people there are real rare psycho monsters it's a story that people don't know about the pit bullet but the pit bull was this is going to be unpopular too but yes or no Pitbull has been selected to fight in the pit so when the pit bull was aggressive on human beings he was out selected immediately it is not yes they did not accept that in the meantime the dog became popular and those dogs that did not or that were not out selected they were bought back again and they and that other dangerous dogs sure if they put the same aggression on people you have a

ticking bomber and I had three or four cases like that in my life where to take the decisions say people this is a no-go you must do the necessary here and then you make yourself not popular but at the ends you know yeah well the pit bull was bred to fight dogs in a pit like you said so when people say they're not dog aggressive well that goes against it's like saying a Shepherd isn't a herder it's not going to hurt things you know it's exactly exactly what it was bred to do now what and what you said is true because what happened is those dogs they would call they'd okay that dog's not dog aggressive enough he's not okay we're gonna kill him and they would take him up but then people started saying oh well don't kill them let's put them in the shelter and people say well you know he's and now he was already used as a bait dog so he's already got a negative in in you know Instinct and when a dog kind of comes after him and that dog doesn't have that drive that that really dominant dog had now he will fight or he will turn on the owner if he was Handler aggressive and all those things so it's an ugly truth I used to talk about a lot in my shelter work they would just take the dog they would electrocute him and they'd be dead that's it the end of discussion when people started trying to do the loving thing and save them it became a disaster and that's why you have you know that they're killing a lot of little dogs they're killing you know they're attacking children mauling them and stuff like that and I've saved a lot of pit bulls in my life nobody that I know has worked more with pitbulls but there are some really bad ones and they should be of course Robert another example yeah the top dog is a psychopath wait a minute Bart let me ask you a question was that the dog that you did all that great stuff with with the ball on the ground it's a video one of the first no no no that store oh that store okay okay Thor I remember Thor was the first no one of the first out of zot oh Thor was out of thought okay got it yes okay character wise he was totally opposite yeah because that's a very interesting story again I could buy zot when he was three months old not three years three months yeah owners calls me as a Bart I have a dog I cannot handle him I said okay how old and he tells me three months three months and Noel Van Der Winkle the guy that itself the dog to me was twice Belgian champ so he's not Mr nobody neither and I was thinking about for a dog is that and I went to his farm and Noel was not there and I was looking in the kennels I did not see the dog and then I went to the trailer and there I

saw a little there in a kennel with no face no mask normally noises black mask and at that moment Nobel arrives and he's a headboard until you find the psychopath and then I did see him but what's wrong with that dog and then he said to me I show you and Noel had the red Royal Canin plastic what do you call kawei kiwi against the rain plastic orange jacket okay yeah yeah in red I never forget it and he opens the door of that trailer and the dog nails him in the middle of his chest and Noel starts hitting him to stop and say whoa whoa come come because I wanted to buy the dog yeah so then he said and then his jacket was totally ripped and the dog was back in the trailer and Noel said you see that dog is crazy he must go away and say wait wait wait and then there was a big brick stone on the ground I never forget it brick stone and I said Noel move that a little bit I want to see if he takes that ah okay he opens the door very gently and the dog nails that big brick stone and he runs around on the farm when that brick storm in his muscle with the tail up I buy him you really give thousand five hundred Euro which was thirty thousand to say yeah you don't want to see him biting and I was thinking I just didn't get home if he bites the stone he will bite a costume also no no because I was afraid the price would go up the price would go up and then I bring the dog home and home he did the same with me I opened that door boom he Nails me I said whoa this is not normal and then I had the lucky shot of my life there was a big empty soccer ball and I could break my key did break my jacket in it was because he had the home Runner and I did open the door again and he did nailed that soccer ball immediately and then he calmed down and put the Leisure on his neck and I never had problems again with that dog and there I understood that dog is crazy he needs something in his mouth and as soon as he has something in his mouth it's like a pacifier and it was calm and as long as that dog had something in his mouth he was even not outing it and from that day I learned to make a big dumbbell with weights so that he was muscled up and when I did do competitions I always had that thing I called it my muzzle so it by holding that thing because he was crazy you would he would attack everything that moved you cannot believe and I showed him a tree and I said bite he did fly in that tree and he did buy the tree that was a psychopath of a dog if that was a human being he was on that road and he would have been executed it was not normal but I did play with that dog and I did win win win win win and then I said I will never breed that dog because

aggression is the first reaction on fear yes so but he did never do fear run away he was not a flyer he was immediately I'm afraid and I'm gonna fight frontal always from but a funny story when I saw a picture fart winning it was on the wall my first trip to Belgium and there's Bart kneeling on the ground and zot has something in his mouth and he's looking down and Bart is looking at him and the the photographer is taking the picture and the you can see there's a communication I said is that the best you could get is that the best you could get and he said yes I have to watch him because if he looks at if he looks at the thug so he he must look away don't look at him and then I Can't Take My Eyes Off him and then I don't forget on the Belgian championships where I win there was local television and in Long down it's one minute long down yeah down and you the Handler you must go away and then the local television the television guy was not doing like an Indian on his belly he can close a call because he listens but yeah he listens like a machine you cannot believe but I was afraid that he would have nailed that guy but that was a psychopath yeah but the grandson was also a psychopath but now comes I did do an excessive breathing fee for that dog because I did not want that dog to go in that what we call mating circuits because people have that crazy idea that you must go to the champs for breathing yeah so I did put breathing money very high but in despite of that they still came so I had to use him as a breeding dog and I must say a lot of times the opposite came out very social dogs very nice dog and fired the old hats um because one of the first songs was flip we called him Bambi and Bambi became twice dvg Champion Germany for a gentleman that never never trained the dog before and that dog was really sweet sweet okay that's why the nickname Bambi all right but when he's working and doing bite work and stuff you're black doctor also came out of the psychopath and what people don't know is that if the male dog has what we call the genotype and recessive you and the phenotype recessive black the black color is phenotype and it's recessive you don't see it if the female is red and also has the gene black color recessive you cannot see it until 32 Generations later the totally black dog can come out of two red dogs and in human mankind is the same yeah yeah yeah yeah the top generation is every year in the human mankind the generation is 20 years later you're gonna see marriages exploding on the color of the child because of this what we call recessive gene but nobody knows that it would be 600 years later

wow that's crazy black doctor came out of that crazy psychopath and he was nice to everybody he's totally of the dog you cannot believe yeah so that was the first video I saw of you training what people don't know is that was a shop non-stop no cut it has been edited like it was filmed yeah yeah yeah in those days we wanted to go away from the bite work to show people something else right control has been the best Ambassador ever for Michael and Lee because black doctor did bring people together from different breeds the labrador people did see something in him as a Labrador the German German Shepherd black German Shepherd people the Rottweiler people everybody did recognize something in that door he looked like a German Shepherd Alive At First Look I thought he was a German Shepherd too because he looked like a bi-colored German Shepherd yeah yeah yeah and beautiful in those days Helmut rise of my good friend in the eres file 2000 said Bart I can make that dog a German shepherd and I said papers of FCI of Malinois I cannot do that because we we are we are already persona non grata if we do that there is a big big but now Michael and I have the same type of dog we have a [ __ ] she's black she's the same totally the same as store 100 the same lived in the house like our [ __ ] lives in the house you don't hear them they are the best guard dogs ever if something happens they tell you and they only tell you if needed they don't have that excessive barking they just smell it they are good dogs yeah but that's genetics well good genetics and good training yeah I agree but too many people try to put a square peg in a round hole and they get these dogs that are genetic messes and try to train them you know and or the dog doesn't have something and they're trying to put it into the dog like the aggression and it's so sad but that's the problem today with the type of dog they are looking for the what we call dopamine dog the tail of dog so they think they have a dog with drive but they don't see that they have a nervous rack yes because a dog must be able to calm down the dog must have moments with tail down and relax yeah that's a good dog but they must wake up the working dog must wake up and then the fire kicks in when they have to work and they calm down and they must be able to sleep you know if you cannot achieve that you will never have success never so what do you think really is the answer to this because seeing your background and Michael's background I know you you had your training in Washington DC or a very very successful training there I I when I first met you talk to you started talking to you guys

um Bart with your European background where does this really come together like how what is the future of because I think the sports are so important and I think if they go by the way if they go for igp Belgian ring French ring monitoring and all that the next thing they're going to go for is they're going to go for agility they're going to go for barn hunting they're going to go for dock diving they're going to destroy every dog Sport and this is why um I've talked to the people over at canine Sports in Germany we've got to pull together at some point you know we've got to unite against this radical force-free movement because there is no future for Dog Sports and then there'll be no future for dogs what what do you see as the future because you've watched the evolution of this over 40 plus years well let's say like this huh politicians that play a game and they want to please the majority so the majority does not want that type of dog so they will killed the whole thing bring Sports the ring sport is not five before 12. it's 30 past 12. it's over and out kmpv is close to over and out French ring the same there is no young people coming it it it's sad but it is what it is and you see the same in all the other sports in in the sports even without dogs when I was a young kid in the soccer teams we could line up 16 per age now they cannot line up one team per age you're right it's over and even even horses they're they're outlawing it in certain and then in my days you started something and you had to stay in that yeah that means that you started Judo well you do Judo all your life don't dare to speak about soccer to your parents nowadays with more the tendency of doing a lot of things but going to Doc sport back I think that about the working dog The Last Mohican the movie is going on the last moiken it's playing we are we are living it living it in Europe certainly yeah and what you do see is that Americans start to teach in Europe about dog training which is totally new normally it was always the other side it was Europeans that they teach the Americans but we do see that all the classic countries came PV Belgian ring French ring there was no Evolution it was a cultural game where you do it like you granddaddy did do it and it's over granddaddy to do it so there was no modern things involved in it by the way we never gave a seminar in Belgium never nobody was ever interested to hear it sure it's always like that eh so sure but we see that that's dying and the politicians make the big majority happy but they also want to make the minority happy so they're gonna come with exceptions on the rule and the

exceptional rule is the licensing the licensing on Doc training will come it already is here in certain States the only way out of yes in California isn't don't you have to have a license no business license but not a dog training license there's no such thing oh okay in Germany to do dog training as a profession you need the license from the circus clone Martin Luther yeah crazy I didn't realize it that's interesting yes yeah but this is something we talked about you know so many times like when I got in the argument with the guy here um you know the science-based dog trainings or they're calling them it's actually a shame to science-based dog training because science-based dog training is understanding classic conditioning the four quadrants but in nowadays science-based Doctrine has a whole new definition science based dog training means purely positive but it's not science-based art training understands the four there are four quadrants and a dog learns equally well from all four quadrants that's why they're called four quadrants not one is one third and two-thirds um right I mean it's it's it's it's super simple to understand what I'm concerned about though is is there closing our conversation is there something because you said politicians listen to the majority I think think politicians listen to the noisiest people and I think it happens here you see a lot of the whole movement of go won't go broke you know they they're going to go into this they're going to really Embrace this one ideology and I don't care what it is 100 right yeah Robert you are 100 right the minority is what we call the sea girls and that's why it's seagull politic it's a minority that acts as a majority yes and the majority is silent silent yeah so this is what I'm saying how come or how can we pull people together like you and I you and I have always been very outspoken I'm very outspoken a lot of enemies but I don't mind but the people who are in Europe the top people in the sports in the games in the training how can these people finally just stand up and go hey you know what I'm like what you're saying helmet Riser okay he's a he's a he's a model for these ideologies this is what I believe in yes do I use an e-collar yes will I correct a dog will I you know I had a dog a Malinois that came out after me I corrected the dog because other people won't take that dog as a client or they will destroy this dog through positive reinforcement of those bad behaviors so much so I'm not afraid to show it I'm going to correct the dog because I'm not going to get bit I hate getting bit yeah you know I mean I give credit to people who like

it and who do it but how do we unite people to say hey we we are the dog lovers we are the ones who care about the future of the dogs of all dogs because in my house I can have a 10 pound Dachshund and I can have a 65 pound Belgian Malinois and everybody's happy well what I I think there is a lot of backbiting in the dog industry yeah and what people don't understand is that there are plenty of dogs to go around sure so if you're a good trainer helping some other trainer doesn't hurt you because there's plenty of dogs there's plenty of business there's more business you're you're in business for a lifetime you have a lifetime worth of clients in front of you waiting in a line right and I just think it's a little bit I I I was speaking with a guy today and he said it's a little bit interesting how the the dog people fight amongst each other yeah and they will work on a dog and let the dog if the dog has a problem they'll spend a whole so much time and efforts to make sure this dog is good but with people they're not like that with people they want to cancel them they want to fight with them they want to have a tribal war with them they want to say your training isn't as good as mine and Bill and that is part of I think what is really killing the industry and the tools and the freedom that we have to breed own and train dogs the way we want okay so on that I want to let me ask you one second because this is a it's an excellent thing you said Michael my wife Janet said something really interesting she said it's unfair to let's say us in this country because we're going to say yeah if we're training a dog for let's let's just take igp for example okay I'm using an e-collar to correct this or to do this or do that now if I'm competing with somebody let's say from let's say um I want a country that nobody's gonna whatever Finland okay and in Finland it's illegal to use an e-collar and people say well that you know John Smith from Finland won the World Championships and they don't use e-collars there how come you here in America have to use an e-collar so first of all well we know they're using them we know they're using and the thing is is that well it's an easy answer the penalty on using it is five years of jail right and the penalty is 25 000 Euro and most people are afraid of that and if your profession is I don't know what and you want to have how should I say peace of mindset you don't speak about it because if you speak about it open and free they come on your property they poison your dogs and so on and so on it's a minority that does stop for nothing and the thing is we have our top dog Jack that was

poisoned we still don't know who and I don't want to know it but it was poisoned of course and if you know who well that guy has bad cards or that lady I don't know but it there is bad people in this world you cannot for sure and they do that in the name of Animal Welfare but you and I and Michael we do Animal Welfare our dogs they look good they are brightening they have air they can swim they have social contact Freedom everything they need yeah well I I tell you a little a little story that uh I was speaking with a guy I'm not going to mention who it is because he was telling me a story about how he lives on a farm and he opens he he opens the gate and he has a big place that's available to him a couple acres and then there's a a not a very uh busy street so he's shutting his gate one time and he's not very rigorous with his dog and his dog is not wearing an e-collar and he's shutting the gates and there's a truck driving by and the guy throws out an apple core and his dog thought that the guy was throwing out a ball he happened to be looking and he ran over and ran to that thing and another car came by and hit him and then he went and to make a long story short with positive reinforcement you cannot have an immediate must and that's why it's very interesting we were in a podcast with someone and the guy said if you could train your dog and train them perfectly would just using positive reinforcement or Naple bow which would you do imagine that they look the same well we we would train them in Naple bow because we have a good relationship it still looks sparkly sure it's on cue with heart and soul but in the case of somebody throwing an apple core out of the out of the car window we have an immediate must should we need it and positive reinforcement you don't have that so it's responsible it's responsible ownership I mean if we can get people to understand that single Theory I think people would change it's you know if you go to a you go to a nice party and you're driving in your car this is an analogy I use um you're wearing a seat belt in case you get an accident but your shirt is going to be wrinkled from the seat belt pressing against you right overall you're going to get there alive everything is safer but but people take this out of it you still have insurance when was the last time you got in a car accident right never yeah okay Auto Insurance it's a crazy thought I mean it's I mean I like your idea we do need to pull together you know again I've given away more clients than I've ever taken on because my business I'm sure you guys you know have more people coming to you and whatever if we could just pull

together more people you know and this is why I wish I could get more people to come on the podcast like you know like who were completely opposites of me which is sad we agree on 99.9 of everything but this conversation bridging this gap of understanding that we can Bridge a gap between people who love dogs but want to see it differently those are the conversations we really need to have as well but reaching the Gap is easier we need tolerance for the full quadrant and the full quadrant is all the rainforces must be accepted for example Michael and I we use the full quadrant we use everything but we accept other trainers to only use positive reinforcement if they are successful for that no problem but why do they have critic the way we do it our dogs look happy they do it with heart and soul they do it on cue and have a nice life what's the problem so your question was what's the solution in Europe what can we do well all over I'm saying in Europe we're really seeing the decay of of freedoms in dog training and we will see it here I know I know I agree nobody didn't believe it come yes I'm nobody I know but and that's what they're saying here well the same mentality here yeah did you see the movie from Mel Gibson Braveheart well there if my memory does not lose me Braveheart is the guy that was trying to bring the Clans together against the king of England Scottish Clans and then he's on the battlefield and then he's winning over the enemy and it takes the the mask off and what does he see one of his own clan members that was supposed to fight at his side that's a little bit what happens in Doc world that means that wherever Mel Gibson is there is always the manipulations from the federal sport federations the manipulations from everybody you cannot believe I was in meetings for ekma in Belgium my country and then all the stakeholders were invited police gender Marie passport and they all come and sit there and then comes the question from the minister of Agriculture do you guys use the e-collar Mr Bellum yes and then the round of the table no we never use it and I said my God but are you lying so they all lie of course the police just sent their chief officer which is a vet which never did train dogs and the Army also did send their vet which maybe did not know that the low rank all uses equal or pinch color and so on and so on because what they don't understand is if a dog bites a human being a police dog if a war dog bites the enemy you must as soon as possible stop the biting action from the dog on a human being as soon as the person is restrained or giving up if the Geneva Convention right yes and if you don't do

this the Geneva Convention kicks in and then the general is in problem and that vet that did came on the table and did lie and it is for that reason that in France recently there was again because in France it's the same situation like in 2004 the green party did bring in again a low proposal to stop and to ban page colors e colors and show Colors one exception the French army because they use nepopo a nepopo stands for the full quadrant that's it we were nearly falling down our seats when we did hear that and it's written and it's typed in the whole thing that means that the whole help did not come from our Allied people the help that came from our enemy that want to stop it because we are Michael and I already since years with the full program they never asked us to help we have everything ready our e-color we can tune it so that the minister of Agriculture could see all the steaming behaviors from everybody and if somebody exaggerate in steaming Behavior we could send a person to say hey we do see that with a little bit too much on the high levels what's going on here and if the person gives a nice explanation no problem eh but if you see that there is animal abuse you immediately interfere so we have all the technology we have we are ready we are ready with the full quadrant teaching so your question to us what can we do Robert to tell you the truth we are sick and tired to sit on tables with the Allied tribes the Allied Clans and when the reality is there they are fighting in the other camps yeah Michael go brutally our way and our way is we gonna reach millions and millions of people with online training with a free application free application positive reinforcement negative reinforcement nepopo that application the price is one million dollar Michael and I we can go in pension we sell everything we say bye bye Focus we don't need your whining anymore no we stay in this Bloody Business because we are 100 convinced that we can still put something in the scale and it's about the full quadrant hey we know for example in Holland there was discussions about this 10 years ago and then they asked me to lobby and I said well if you ask me you must pay me because I'm a professional oh you don't do it for free I said no and then later I do here that at the negotiation tables the name nepopoded fall and then the Allied people our friends all say no no no we don't need that they prefer everything in the ditch than to go for licensing and I'm gonna tell you another thing about licensing one day there was a king and he his people in his country were stupid so and he obliged the kids to go to school because there was too much an

alphabetism an alphabetism is not genetical it is a learning process it has nothing to do with genetics nothing it has to do with the environment where you grow in one day there was a guy saying there is too many accidents on the road let's introduce a driving license and of course there is still accidents but much less so by implementing a license you will make the whole thing survive another anecdotes 20 years ago in Germany making education 20 years ago in Germany they were second tight of the hunters they want to get rid of the hunters so they did Implement a very hard hunting examination it was to give them what they called the neck shot to kill the whole hunting business what did he see instead of killing the whole hunting there is a new Revival of hunting like never before in Germany due to the very hard licensing we must go for licensing that is one and we must go for Licensing in the full quadrant no that's the point of course right now I think if yeah if they're going to push if they're going to push licensing now from the way things are the licensing is going to come through through a positive only thing and that's why I pushed back against licensing you know if licensing was truly licensing like hey this is this this here's all four quadrants this is you must understand it and then you get your thing now however you teach is up to you right that's freedom but on the negotiation tables you say no against licensing they say yes against licensing they say only positive reinforcement and then you say well licensing only if it's the full quadrant that's what we do on negotiation things right it's finding the middle of yeah yeah yeah make a little bit of people right of course of course yeah if everybody stands on the no no no you have no d I agree and I agree the deal you need the deal and the deal is the full quadrant and Michael now we go further Michael and I we do full quadrant and we give people the license in full quadrants are they the best dog trainers of the world no but give them time and they become better and better yeah it's not because you are a doctor as a study that you are immediately a good doctor some of them maybe are but most of them not and just because you got a driver's license doesn't mean does it mean I agree it needs time so we do believe that the must-com license and that license must be the full quadrant yeah rigorously and we believe in parameters on tools because now comes by being in manufacturing we see that the whole industry was based on all technology inventions were based on due to pressure of the market that wanted cheaper and cheaper and cheaper tools what they do the most

Fabrics that did produce cheaper and cheaper tools but not better there is a moment in the last 40 years yeah innotech was years ago the first company that did bring Innovation innotech and then it was bought over by radio system and all the Innovations stopped there immediately so innotech was the big innovator now for the moment we Martin systems Michael and I we are two dog trainers you know the first thing we did do was killing the anti-bark killing the offense those are the things we killed we knew that the lobbyists are pushing for that and we say no we don't want it because in our opinion the anti-bark will stop maybe The Barking but it will create another nervy Behavior that's what we do see and the fence for us there is legal problems you can train a normal dog to stay in the fence but you cannot train the psychopath to not go in your family and kill your dog in a fight right so it gives a very false idea of security that's another thing and we knew exactly what the politicians are going for but Michael and I did kill it also for the reason that in our bark in a bitter there is no contact measurement in which we do believe that the color tells you you have contact with the skin or not to prevent what we call the unvoluntary oversteam and our our anti-bar from the old days had no SSC so we killed all the products that had not the patents we do believe in for animal welfare and our colleagues at and crying Michael bark we're gonna go bankrupt and say no you're gonna go rigorously this way and we don't go for cheaper we go invest in better and better well what a lot of e-color companies do now when they make a new product is they change the shape or they change the color yeah but but the the functionality is not much different now Robert we don't pretend that we are without problems every brand has problems sure fix them as soon as possible and as soon as possible is not fast in industrial process what I did understand very much better with Michael and me being in the business is a little change on a PCB is a huge change in reality sure you cannot believe you cannot believe so we know exactly that when we have a problem and we have we are very lucky we make small badges thousand pieces thousand pieces 1000 pieces if we have contamination it is only on thousand pieces sure and yes we do have problems but we Face the problems and we try to make a good deal for the animal and for the owner yeah while we smell immediately is that when people want to cheat on us that we smell immediately yeah because there's also a bad tendency we do see that to cover a lot of that's my my wife just got back

I don't use bar collars you can tell no yeah you know that she's back yeah but that's not the job of a dog eh yeah yeah yeah of course it's natural they should not bark for 10 hours there but listen this is a whole nother conversation this whole idea of the collar we should have another conversation about um the technology and stuff like that I wanted to get into that in this conversation just again like whatever we talk the conversation do it next time no problem but let's we should talk about that yeah yeah people will fall asleep but let's let's wrap it up on this and let's get another time where we can talk about all the Innovation which again I was heading in that direction with this conversation when we first started but what got so interesting about all the other stuff that I think it's a great chat um but yeah let's do that because that's something to talk about it's all these changes and why the contact measurement and and all these things you have that I'm a big fan of in your collars um are important and again people have ordered to call us through I've become an affiliate of yours I believe in your company believe in your product I'm going to put a link to your website as well in the video description so people want to learn more about bart and Michael they can click on the link below you guys are fascinated Robert before we bought Martin's system we always we always who are the same people yeah we were the same people and we still spoke highly of it and it was the only collar that we used we believe in it we're not I know most people we we can only speak about it it's like it shows on our face yeah of course so I'm the same way I've got so many offers from companies I only I only talk about products that I believe in and I guess yeah you guys are the same way you just happen to buy the company I didn't buy it so yeah it sounds it's it's not no it's not I totally understand I wouldn't be I wouldn't even mention the product I didn't believe in it I use it my wife's got one and I bought one for her um it's a good product but let's let's let's set a time aside and really kind of break down why why it is what it is we'll do that in a future episode okay all right so it goes on our nerves and that's the last thing I should say is that people like to use tools without knowledge of a tool and without knowledge of the system they are in in that must change and that's why good professionals that teach the whole quadrants quadrants are very necessary we're gonna reach millions of people like that over that free application yeah you remember that little game tamaguchi yeah yeah you have an idea how

many pieces were sold worldwide you have millions I don't know Millions 84 Millions wow we're gonna give that application for free and we're gonna reach millions and now politicians are gonna listen to the full quadrant story because well because the majority we are in the majority and we are not silent and we need soldiers that stand up and hold the lines we don't need soldiers that go in the camp of the enemy or with the hidden bandana and beat on and backstab the other yeah of their Partners yeah I agree but I do want to say um Robert uh we're sorry if we said anything that offended anybody no no no no no no it's you know it's it's in just normal conversations the the Holocaust is something I always I always go you know when people say this people use terminology and stuff and sometimes people don't know you know I mean I studied really into the Holocaust system so people are sensitive to it for the right reasons it is I understand when six million people die for no reason it's one thing but it's it's a totally it's it's a it's a I know you didn't mean it like that I just want to make it known for all our friends because we have a lot of friends in Israel and all over the world who love our work and we want everybody to make sure that they that they know we're very sensitive to their emotions yes and their their lives so that's a big danger big danger about everything we said is the globalism where yeah some people died for the whole world that's dangerous thing and that's going on for the moment I agree but I want to make sure our message should not get this way because somebody says oh they said this it wasn't said it was not meant that way and as long as it's clear we everybody can see it so cool hey guys you email us okay and well I'm gonna I'm gonna call you you call me all the time anyway so I'd rather chat hey thanks for this this was fun and yeah very direct conversation thank you yeah we'll talk soon I will okay bye guys [Music] [Applause]