E36: 패트리샤 맥코넬(Dr. Patricia McConnell) - "반려견 행동 & 훈련"

Excellent. Well, I know that you've shared kind of in some of the other interviews you've done that you've been in love with dogs and behavior for as long as you can remember. So I wanted to ask a little bit about kind of when you decided that was what you wanted to do with your life and see if you could just share a little bit about those early days. Oh, yeah. You know, it's almost like a feminist manifesto. Because when I was, you know, I was born in 1948. And when I was five, there's a story about me being asked what I wanted to do when I was five. And I said, I want to marry a rancher. Because in 1953 in Arizona, women made babies in casseroles. They didn't have careers. They didn't, you know, make shopping centers and business deals or even be veterinarians. And so gradually over time, I had all kinds of different careers. I moved a lot with my first husband. And eventually I got to the point where I thought, you know what, I'm going to go back to school and I'm going to study animal behavior. What I envisioned is that I would teach it. So I would teach at some small private college and I would teach animal behavior because I love animals and I love behavior. And I finally realized in my 30s, early 40s, you know, this is a way I could really enmesh myself in my passion and what I love. But then I went to an Animal Behavior Society conference. It's a conference of academics, people who study behavior, mostly wild animals, mostly in the field. And I ran into John Wright, who was an academic, actually a psychologist, who was an applied animal behaviorist. And so he took all of his training in behavior and used it to help people solve problems with family dogs. And I was like, oh, really? I didn't know that was a possibility. So it ended up that my colleague, Dr. Nancy Raffetto, and I opened up Dog's Best Friend as a consulting service. Most people had no idea who we were, what we were doing. Nobody did it then. I mean, nobody did it then. People would call us up, Melissa, and say, do you guys groom poodles? Oh, goodness. So, you know, yeah. So this was in the late 80s, and this was a really new field. So it all progressed from there, but it certainly wasn't linear. And anybody who's in a path right now of, like, you know, who do I want to be and what do I want to do? Or maybe I'm going in a direction I don't want to go, is don't lose heart. I mean, I didn't get into this until I was in my 40s. And you've quite clearly achieved quite a bit of success. So the hope is not. Well, it's been very satisfying. It really, you know, I just, I feel so lucky.

I feel very grateful and lucky and privileged and honored to be able to find the right niche, you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think the rest of us have been pretty privileged that you've decided to do this, too. Well, thank you. Thank you. So I wanted to ask, you mentioned that, you know, you've been in the field for quite a while. And I wanted to ask kind of how your philosophy is today and maybe a little bit of kind of how even it's changed over that time. Obviously, the world is a very different place for dogs. Oh, man. So true. I mean, you know, I've written quite a few places about the first dog training class I went to when I was, I think, probably 19. The dog trainer was a Marine. And he hung a basenji, as in with a choke chain collar, picked the dog off the ground, so all four feet were off the ground, and hung him there until he started running out of breath and was dying. You know, actually, it was not all that long, shockingly, not all that long ago. Well, somebody, a dog died from that, and someone tried to sue, except they weren't successful because they were told that that was standard in the industry. That was standard practice. So you can't blame the person for doing it. Yeah. So, boy, have things changed. Boy, have things changed. My philosophy now is very much along the lines of least intrusive, minimally aversive. You know, the Lima protocol that I think is fantastic. I would say 99.95% of what I do with dogs is positive reinforcement. And I do use, you know, I will use a correction. I mean, if Maggie starts to eat something I don't want her to eat, sometimes I'll say, leave it. Or sometimes I'll go, uh-uh. You know, and that's positive punishment because I added something to decrease the frequency of a behavior, right? So, but I think, you know, besides the really important focus that you see now on positive reinforcement, which I think is just so vital, I think interspersed with that and twined with that is a change in our relationship and the way we see our dogs. I mean, it was all about dominance before. It was all about control. And you're in charge. And sometimes it was just simply like, well, you know, you have to be in charge. And other times it was suggested as a way of something your dog needed. You know, the old, your dog needs you to be the alpha of the pack. But it was always about control. And now it seems to me, don't you think it's more with many of us about relationship? Because they are our best friends, you know. They're great friends of ours. And that's what I want. You know, my dogs have to do what I ask them to do. Sometimes they have to.

They have to lie down if they're, you know, chasing a rabbit towards the road or something. But I just, I value them as members of my family and friends. I don't think of them as furry people. I think that's disrespectful to dogs. But they are an integral part of my life and my family and my love. That's definitely something that, you know, is kind of a core part of the kind of Fensi philosophy. So, I mean, I definitely think that we're seeing more and more of a shift to that. Obviously, not everybody's there yet. But hopefully they will be one day, right? Absolutely. Yeah. And, you know, I think the kind of work that, you know, Fensi Dog Sports Academy is doing is vital to that. You know, we just, we all need to be out there as much as we can just spreading the word. Because it's, you know, it's not just more fun. It works better. It's, I just heard, I was just at APDT not too long ago and somebody was, I was, Pat Miller was talking about Bob Bailey saying, who was a professional animal trainer. He trained for movies and commercials and he said, I use positive reinforcement because it works better. He said, I don't do it for welfare. I don't do it to be nice. I do it because it works better and it's more efficient. I would do, you know, if I had to use punishment, if it works better in order to do my job, that's what I do, you know. But he said, it just, it works better. But, so it does work better, but it's also so much more fun, so much more fun to not have to be a drill sergeant in your own living room. I did hear that you were awarded an awarded APDT. Is that right? I was so honored. They gave me a life training award. Yeah. That's awesome. Thank you. It was really honored. Yeah. Thank you. Obviously, you're really well known for your work in dog behavior. But I know from your first book that early on in your career, you did quite a bit of research on cues, especially across languages. And I know that cues are always kind of a big topic and of interest to people. So I wanted to ask you to kind of share your top takeaway or two from that work. Oh, thanks for asking. Because, you know, that's how I got into this. I mean, I was started as an undergraduate looking for a project, a research project. As an ethologist, somebody who studies animal behavior, I had no thought of working with domestic animals or being an applied animal behaviorist. I was working with a professor who worked with fish. And so what I did is the question at the time that was really hot in the field at the time was, why do animals take the risk of making noise? You know, what are they doing?

Are they just sort of expressing an emotional state because they can't help it? Are they, is there some function of what they do? I mean, people honestly were asking questions about why are animals making noise? Because it's risky, right? It attracts attention. So I used, I used working domestic animals, the relationship between handlers and working domestic animals as, as a kind of a model for that system. So I recorded the, the, the acoustic signals from over 110 handlers who work with racehorses and all kinds of different kinds of dogs, different kinds of horses. And they spoke, I think I got 16 different languages. And I was, what, what I found was I found patterns in how people speed animals up and, and how they use sound to slow animals down. And so basically what I learned was short, rapidly repeated notes are used all over the world, no matter what language, what field to speed animals up. And long, slow, extended ones are used to soothe them and quick, abrupt ones with an instant onset are used to stop them. So, you know, so it's the difference between, or boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, right? Those are all used to speed animals up. Whoa, lie down, soothe slow versus whoa to stop a quarter horse, for example. And so, so yeah, so what I learned was it's not what you say, it's how you say it. And that's had a profound influence on, on, you know, how I've worked with animals and, and how I think of how we communicate. So how does that continue to kind of influence what you do today? Oh, it does, it does professionally and it does personally. Um, so, you know, uh, with clients, I was always paying attention and I think we all are all good trainers. When we're working with dog owners, we're, we're paying a lot of attention to how people use sound and how they say things, you know? So, so, I mean, this probably happened to everybody who's listening is you had a client who would say, Jasper, come, right? You know, like Jasper would stop at his track, you know? And that was standard in obedience, by the way, is to shout it out like that. I'm just standing really stiff and really still and look straight at your dog and like, come, you know? And, and, and dogs had to get over like, oh, okay, I guess I'm supposed to come forward. Um, rather than their natural instinct, which was like, I clearly should stop right now because they're telling me not to come here. So I pay a lot of attention to how clients would speak. And I, you know, I, I have to work on it too. I mean, I work, I work with working border collies and who are sometimes 500 yards away from you.

So you really have to pay attention to tone, um, you know, and how you sound. I mean, I've learned Maggie, for example, Maggie's super sensitive and she can get really worried. And, and, um, so when I ask her to lie down, I say, lie down, lie down, just really sing songy, really easy. And she's so responsive that, that she'll do it right away. Um, so both personally and professionally, I, I just pay a lot of attention to that. Am I perfect personally? No, of course not. But the other thing, the other thing I learned, Melissa, after I, after I finished my dissertation, after I finished all that research on sound, when I started doing dog training classes, is I discovered how, how, yes, sound has a huge effect on how dogs behave, that, that they're primarily watching us and how unaware most of us are of how our, the movement of our body affects dogs. So that's the other big takeaway that I've learned about cueing is that it's like just whether you're leaning forward a half an inch can make a profound difference in whether your dog is comfortable coming towards you or breaks its stay, or you turn your head away from a dog who's uncomfortable or, or stare at it, make it uncomfortable. So, so, so, you know, that all my training as an ethologist and studying communication and subtle, subtle, tiny, subtle little signals, I think stands everybody who loves dogs in good stead, because it's so important to be aware that less is more. The tiniest little change in inflection, the tiniest little movement can have a huge effect on your dog's behavior. Mm-hmm. And it goes back to like the example you mentioned kind of of somebody standing straight up and strict, and as they all come, it's not just the language, it's also the body language there that's just so counter, counter their purpose. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I wanted to make sure we talked a little bit about the new book, because I know there are a lot of people who are very excited that you wrote it. So how does the education of will differ kind of from some of the other books that you've written? Hmm. Oh, well, thanks for asking about it, first of all. It's hugely different. It's, it's, it's just, it's a totally different work than I've ever done before. It's, it's a memoir. So it's very personal. It's a memoir about me and Willie. That's why the subtitle on the hardcover anyway is a mutual memoir of a woman and her dog. Um, I intertwine stories about getting Willie as a puppy who came as if he came, come straight from Afghanistan with some canine version of PTSD. He was the most, he was fearful. He was sound reactive.

He was pretty much a mess as a young dog. And he really was. And, but he also, you know, he was, when he was good, he was like the best dog ever. Um, he has a face on him that can just melt your bones and he still does. I mean, there's something about Willie's face. That's why the publisher put his face on the cover of the book, which I still am not crazy about because I don't think it tells people what the book is really about, but his face, he's just got the most gorgeous face and he's so loving and so friendly and so playful. You know, the, the, the, the best of Willie is like just the dog everybody wants, but he came with all this baggage and his baggage, as it turned out, triggered all kinds of stuff that I thought I had resolved from my past. I had a lot of traumas in my past. I was raped. I was molested. Um, I had somebody fall and die literally out of the sky and like fall by surprise out of the sky and fall at my feet and die. Um, yeah. And you know, when things like that happens, it really changed. It structurally, physically changes your brain. I mean, when, when individuals get traumatized with that kind of a trauma and they can't, they don't have enough resilience to bounce back from it. It literally structurally, physically changes that your brain structure, your amygdala gets more active, your hippocampus shrinks. I mean, all kinds of things happen. And so I had my own version of PTSD and I thought I'd resolve it. But when I got this super, super sound, reactive little puppy who, when a butterfly in China came out of its chrysalis, um, would, you know, would leap up barking and, and it set off. It triggered all this old stuff and all these old symptoms with me. And so I basically figured out eventually that I couldn't heal Willie until I really healed myself. So he forced me to go farther down and face some of the things I thought I dealt with, but I really hadn't finished. So I didn't, I didn't start writing it to publish it. I actually started writing just segments of it, um, of, of some of the traumas that happened to me as part of therapy, because it's very therapeutic to write out, very therapeutic to write out just about anything. Um, I highly strongly advise it to any of us. I write in my journal almost every morning and I find it so balancing. But so I started, I wasn't going to publish this, Melissa. I was just, just verifying myself and trying to get better. And then as a part of that process, I read a couple of books that literally changed my life. I mean, you know, that sounds, that's used so often and I know we can ever use it, but they really did.

That really is how it felt. And I started thinking if I could, if I could write this book where I intertwined Willie's story and my story to show people that both people and dogs can, that the effects of trauma on both people and dogs, because dogs can be traumatized. And I think a lot of people don't acknowledge that. Horses too, any mammal. Um, but also that we are ultimately so resilient. And if we have the right support around us, people can heal from just an amazing amount of things and so can dogs. So that's why I ended up finishing it, publishing it and putting it out in the world. How are you and Willie both doing today? Oh, we're good. We're good. He's 10. I can really believe that he's 10 years old. He's really happy. He, I think he loves having Maggie there. Maggie is, Maggie is great with him. He's, you know, he's, he's, he's so much better now. I mean, he recovered so much. He's still super reactive, but now it's like happy reactive. You know, it's not panic, scared reactive, but he's also, you know, he's not the best dog around other dogs. And so when Maggie came, she'd like try and play and he'd get grumpy and, you know, do a little, one of those little tiny little, you know, little grumpy tooth displays, you know, like, and, and she literally would be like, Oh, Willie, come on, let's play. And you could just see this be like, okay. Aw. So they, yeah, they play. He gets to work sheep. He gets, he and I still cuddle. It's belly rub. He's really good. He's really happy. And it makes me really happy. Yeah. Good. Thanks for asking. Yeah. When you wrote the book, kind of what do you hope people will take away from it? I know you mentioned that you wrote it kind of inspired by these other books that changed your life, but, but when somebody finishes reading the book, what do you hope they've kind of learned or that they walk away with? Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for asking. Um, I would say one that about, about that resilience, about the fact that it's just, it's amazing if you know how to handle it, you know, you have to have the tools, you have to have help, you have to have a village, but if you have help and you know how to handle it, it's astounding how resilient people can be. And, and, you know, I've since heard stories and we've all heard stories of people who've been through just unbelievable nightmares and yet they're doing good, you know, like, how do you live through that? So people are really resilient. I really want to emphasize to get out into the world, you know, past, uh, sort of the dog fancy world, um, that dogs can be traumatized.

You know, I don't, I mean, I'm sure I don't have to tell you or listeners is that so much of quote aggression and quote disobedience are, is basically behavior that's motivated by fear, you know? And I, I see a lot, I saw a lot of dogs who I think were traumatized. I mean, even just in the dog park, they got attacked from behind by some dog. Um, and then they become dog, dog aggressive. And, and, um, so knowing that, you know, this is not about dominance. This is not in the, this is not a bad dog, you know, that we need to be really thoughtful. Veterinarians need to be really aware of how terrifying it can be to a dog to have certain medical procedures. And, you know, I think veterinary medicine is starting to come on board, um, which is really gratifying. Dr. Marty Becker has a book coming out. It's actually available through DogWise. It's coming out, um, in April, um, commercially or everywhere else, but call from fearful to fear-free. And a lot of what he's trying to do is to change vet clinics so that they're more conscious, you know, using a lot of the kind of methods that Sophia Yin, um, did such a great job of spreading out into the world. So, so that's another one of the things that I want people to be aware of that animals can traumatize and we need, they need understanding. They don't need dominance. They need understanding. But, you know, the last thing that I would love people to get is that we all have stories, you know, every, you know, we all have stories and we all have things that we're ashamed of or afraid of. And I'm a big supporter of Brene Brown and her work about facing those fears, about putting light onto some of that rather than hiding it in the dark. And, you know, we need to be aware of the person we're sitting next to or the person who was rude and lying at the supermarket or something. You know, we don't know their story. And even when people are successful and productive, um, you know, you don't know, we don't know. So the more empathy and benevolence and kindness we can have to everybody and anybody, whether person or dog, the better the world will be. I think that's such like a powerful and important message to kind of get out there and think about and to be aware of not just in your interactions with dogs, but, but also with people. Um, Thank you. And don't you think, I mean, this is an authentic question I'm asking you. My, maybe because of social media, I don't know what it is about the world. Is it the water? I don't know. But, but, you know, in the, and, and it's true in many fields and, um, sort of parts of social

behavior of humans, but, but there is, there is a certain amount in the dog world of snarkiness of, you know, um, snappiness of, of a lack of real thoughtful, benevolent consideration of other people. And I think, and I think that's too bad. Um, I do think it's partly because of social media, but I just want everybody who loves dogs and is promoting positive training with dogs is we all, and we all need to be reminded of me. Believe me, I am no saint. I mean, I have to take a breath sometimes too, but, but we all, you know, we all need to remember that no matter what method somebody uses or, or, you know, how much we disagree with them, um, we need to be as positive with people as we are with dogs. I think especially in kind of the sports world or the competitive world, you've got a dichotomy there between competition where people want to be better than the others around them. And they also do have that relationship with their dogs. So I definitely do think that there's a snarkiness and we all have to be conscious of, of our own behavior and our own words and kind of fight against that a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. I can, you know, I don't do, I don't go to agility. Um, I've never competed in it, but, but I don't go, I watch it sometimes, but I don't do it a lot, but I'm in sheepdog handling and, you know, we all know how competitive some people can be. And, um, I just, I love the people who, who are competitive in a really good way. You know, they want to get better and they'll, yeah, they'd love to, it's way more fun to win. I mean, it's way more fun to do well. No question about it. There's way more fun to do well. Um, but overriding always has got to be the health and happiness of our dogs and our relationship with them. I could not agree with you more. No good. So I know we're kind of getting towards the end of the call, but there are three questions that I ask everyone who comes in the podcast and I wanted to make sure we kind of got them in and I got your perspective. So to start out, the first one is what is the dog related accomplishment that you're proudest of? Well, you know, I have to separate it out. Um, personally, I think I'm proudest of giving my dogs a good life. I feel all wussy when I say that I could just get all soppy and Oprah ish. Um, but I, I, you know, I'm not perfect. And I mean, I can beat myself up over things I haven't done perfectly and I could have done better. But I think in general, I think I've provided quite a few dogs a really, really good life and, and understanding them as individuals rather than just dogs, um, and making them

fit into some kind of slot that I wanted them to fit into. So, so I'm really, I am, I'm really proud of that. And I'm also, I guess, professionally, I think I'm proudest of, of combining my, um, my respect for good writing and my passion and love for dogs and my interest in science, combining all those three things. Um, I love to read, I love good writing. I don't think anybody needs to hear how much I'm just stupid and love with dogs. And I think science is really important. And I found a way sometimes, sometimes, you know, I get on the right track and I combine all those three things in a way that I feel is good enough. And, and when that happens, I feel really good about that. I love that, especially, um, the bit about just knowing that you've provided a good life to your dogs. That's such an awesome thing to be proud of. I really, I like that answer. Thank you. Thank you. So this one, I may be a hard question, uh, but what is the best piece of training advice that you've ever heard? Oh man. Oh man. Oh wow. Oh wow. Let's see. Oh, I do. I have to pick one. Okay. I'll be really fast. You can share more than one if you want. I'll let you get away with that. Good. The thing that pops up in my mind, the first time I, I hear that is actually, it's not a piece of advice. It's just a saying and it makes me want to cry. I sound like such a crier. It makes me want to cry. The, the, the saying is we train by regret. It just hits home so hard to me because, because I think every one of us who cares deeply about dogs and is really honest and insightful and, and learns and grows, you know, admits that there are things we've done that we wish we'd never done. And, and, and, you know, some of them are just tiny little stupid things. It's like, Oh, I can't believe I didn't think of that. Or, you know, so, um, I think that's, that's a really important thing. But I think the most important part about it is to remind all of us to be kinder to ourselves. I think a lot of the people I work with who are progressive dog trainers who just adore their dogs and move heaven and earth for them. We're so hard on ourselves. Don't you think? I mean, we're just, you know, I, I, I've worked with clients who are just, they're just, Oh, they're being so hard on themselves because they haven't been perfect or they made this one mistake. And it's like, Oh man, you know, you are so, we are all human here. So I think, I think that strikes home with me a lot. And I guess the other just sort of solid, quick, concise piece of advice is basically say less mean more. I just made that up, but I've heard people say versions of that, you know?

So basically another version is just shut up. I think I, I, I mean, you can hear, I like to talk, right? So I can get badly with my dogs and I think it's confusing and tiring to our dogs. And I think, you know, some of the people who, you know, those people who dogs just don't ever want to leave, you know, they meet them and the second they meet them, they sit down beside them and don't want to leave. There aren't many of them, but, and I was never one of those people. I, I sometimes am now, which makes me really happy. But, um, those are often people who are really quiet. So I think being very mindful of the way we use words and sound, um, around our dogs is really, really important because I think frankly, our dogs are often just simply exhausted trying to figure out what the heck we're trying to convey to them, you know? So I guess, I guess I'd stick with those two things. Excellent. Well, thank you. Kind of the last one here is who is someone else in the dog world that you look up to? If you'd asked that first, we would still be talking. That's cruel to ask me last. We're going to run out of time. Okay. I'll talk really fast. Susan Friedman. I kiss the hem of her skirt or her pants. I bow down to her. I think she's brilliant, funny, amazing, wonderful. I love fancy dog sports. I think that incredible work's being done. Suzanne Hatz is doing great work. Her husband, Dan Estep. Julie Hatz at Dog Spies. Karen Pryor. Oh my goodness. Trish King. I mean, how can you? Steve White. Chris Zink. Everybody in, you know, dog sports knows. I mean, those are the people who just like rattle off the top of my head right now, but I could go on and on and on. But there are so many amazing people in this field right now. It's just so gratifying. That's awesome. Those are just a few of them. Yeah. We'll have to see if we can get a few of them to come on the show. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Patricia. I really appreciate it. Oh, it was really fun. Thanks for having me. Awesome. Well, and thanks to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with Sarah Streming. Sarah and I will be talking about life with your dog outside of training and how what you do then impacts that training. Don't miss it. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com.

The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang and transcription written by CLK Transcription Services. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Today's show iso. Thank you.