E53 - 에스더 짐머맨(Esther Zimmerman) - 변화하는 도그 스포츠의 세계

Elphaba is my nine-year-old Skipper Key. She happens to be Jeeves' niece. She has her CDX, which when she earned it included the group Out of Sight Stays. Those were a real challenge for her. She doesn't like other dogs looking at her. But we persisted and succeeded. She's almost ready for the utility rink. She's the first and only Nosework Elite 2 Skipper Key and is a real little hunting machine in that sport. She also has her FENZ Team 1 and Team 1 Plus titles. Friday is my three-year-old Skipper Key. His titles at this point are in NW1 and Team 1, 1 Plus, and 1H. She just passed his 1H, which was very exciting. Congrats. He's teaching me the importance of patience, a trait that I already have an abundance of, but he really requires it in spades. He really does. He can try my patience sometimes, but he keeps me honest as far as that goes. He's got tons of obedience skills under his collar, but there's no way he's ready for AKC competition. I'm hoping maybe by next year. And then I have Taxi, my 17-month-old golden retriever. He's had a gold spot in an academy class almost every semester since I brought him home as a baby puppy. He's got great potential, like all of our dogs do. I hope that we get to reach the goals I have in mind. And he's a typical, happy, fun-loving dog. He's a real joy. And that's the three dogs that I have right now. How did you originally get into dog sports? Well, it's interesting because back in the beginning, I didn't have my own dog. I didn't have my own dog until I was 15. But I've been training dogs since I was five years old. I grew up in New York City, and every apartment superintendent had a dog that they were more than willing to let me borrow. I read every dog and dog training book in the library, much to my mother's dismay, because that's all I read. And with those dogs, I switched what I was doing based on whatever the advice was that the author of that book gave. So I had a real eclectic education as far as training dogs, not my own dogs. And I did something different all the time. The very first dog show I ever attended was Westminster in 1969. School was closed because we had a snowstorm. But the trains were running. Westminster's on Monday and Tuesday. Always has been. So the trains were running. And off I went with my tokens, and I went to Westminster. I was in heaven. I had no idea that they had 50% absenteeism because of the snowstorm. And I thought that the most beautiful dog there was the Basenji. I did not get a Basenji. Okay. The very first obedience trial I ever went to was the Bronx County Kennel Club.

And there I saw a woman in a wheelchair competing in open with her Labrador Retriever, which just blew my mind. I couldn't conceive of such a thing that not only was this dog doing all this amazing stuff, but that his hand was in a wheelchair. And she was around for a really, really long time and quite well known on the East Coast and in New England as a competitor. So I got Juno. My first dog was a German Shepherd. I got it from an ad in the newspaper. The best way to get a dog, right? Of course. She was one of two 10-month-old puppies who were so fearful that they were climbing over each other in their pen trying to get away from me. So, of course, I said, I'll take that one. And that was Juno. I used the same kind of eclectic training with her, doing something different each week based on what book I was reading from the library. It did apparently work, though. Because seven years later, after I got married and moved to Massachusetts, I joined New England Dog Training Club, which is the oldest still-existing dog training club in the country. That summer, we entered our first trial. We earned our first leg. And I got my first high-end trial on this fearful dog. Wow. And that's how somebody gets really hooked on the sport. First time you go in the ring, you win high-end trial. You want to do that again. Oh, yeah. And coincidentally, my first paying job as a teenager was as kennel help at Captain Haggerty's School for Dogs. Actually, pretty well known. He used to train dogs for movies a lot out in Hollywood. But their training approach was break them and make them. They would get dogs in there for boarding and training, and they went home trained. They were not happy, but they went home trained. It was absolutely pure compulsion, which, as a teenager, was really eye-opening and a little bit scary, actually. I imagine. So that's how I got started in dog sports. Wow. So you've really kind of been doing it almost your entire life, but kind of an interesting, different story. Yes. Yeah. You mentioned kind of it's been eclectic, and it's been a little bit here, it's been a little bit there in terms of reading. But what really got you started on your, you know, positive training journey? What kind of got you hooked there? Because I certainly know that's where you are now. Yeah. So I think this is a good time for us to talk about Patty Russo, because she's a big part of that whole journey. So in the early 1980s, there was a really tight-knit group of us training at Tales You Win in Connecticut.

And together, we had our first exposures to Karen Pryor and Gary Wiltz and John Rogerson and others who totally and completely changed the way we were training and how we even thought about training. We were all attending every seminar we could go to, every clinic we could go to. We were reading dog magazines. I was amassing a huge personal library of dog books. And that was all before the internet, before YouTube, before Facebook. So Patty was an interesting person. She was a really quiet force to be reckoned with. She was a great competitor. She had a great rapport with her dogs. Anyone who saw her in the ring with her magnificent turf, Luca, will always remember what that looked like. They had such a presence about them. And it's an image that I always aspire to. It's one of those things that if you close your eyes, you can still picture it all these years later. So Patty was my friend. She was my training buddy. She was my coach. We were determined to pursue a force-free, reward-based approach to training. The first thing we eliminated were the leashes and collars. No more leashes, no more collars. We stopped any physical corrections. As our skills and understanding got better, we were able to even avoid applying psychological pressure to the dogs. And that was a big deal. And my dog at that time was a Skipper Key Zapper. She was a dog that really pushed us to examine what we had been doing and to see what we could accomplish with this new, to us, approach. And she became my first utility dog. Patty was a really tremendously creative person. She was continually trying and then discarding ideas. It could be dizzying to try and keep up with her. Sort of like Denise. Patty passed away 12 years ago. It was a real tragedy for the world of obedience and for me personally. Several of us from that original group have worked to fill the void by becoming instructors and trainers in our own right. And we all made that commitment to stay positive. And I think the group of us really has done a good job of that. You know, Denise kind of brought up the fact that you knew Patty when she and I were talking about having you on. In case anybody kind of doesn't really know the name, do you mind just sharing a little bit more about kind of the impact she had in the sport in the area? Just a little bit more about her background or her history or kind of the role that she played? Well, so she had multiple arch dogs. She competed at the Gaines regionals and did really, really well at those. She had a Sheltie. She had a Border Collie and then Luca, the incomparable Luca. And then she got a Whippet.

You know, it's a dog like that that really tests your mettle and your commitment. And she was totally committed to being positive with this dog. But when I tell you that he was not able to do a sit stay of any sort until he was about two and a half, I really mean it. And she just would keep saying, don't worry. He'll do it. Don't worry about it. He'll do it. And that don't worry about it is something that I say all the time to my students. But my dog's not doing that. Don't worry about it. He will eventually. And she was just like that. So I'll tell a little anecdote. This will tell you everything you need to know about Patty and the influence that she had on people. So she has two sons. She has. So the younger one was about four when this happened. And they had gone grocery shopping. And they came home. And he wanted to help her unload the groceries. So what did he want to carry up the stairs? Take a guess. The eggs. The eggs. Yep. The eggs. Of course. So he goes up the stairs. And of course, he trips and falls and drops the eggs. And she hollers up the stairs, are you okay? And he said, yes, six of the eggs did not break. Right? So just that switch. Six of the eggs broke. Six of the eggs did not break. That's how she raised her children to focus on the positive. Part of the impressive part is that, you know, back then nobody was doing that, right? Like there weren't people achieving those kind of things with positive training. And there were a lot of people saying it could not be done. Right. So the early dogs, it would not be fair to say that she was totally positive with the early dogs. But by the time Luca came along, it was very, very positive. And by the time Flyer, the Whippet came along, it was totally positive. She didn't get a notch on him. Things happened. And then she passed away. But there it was. And she put it out there in the competitive world the way nobody else was at that point in time. We've kind of danced around this question a little bit now. But how would you describe your training philosophy now? That's a good question. My philosophy is fairly simple, actually. Treat dogs and handlers with kindness and patience. I could probably stop right there, but I won't. But really, kindness and patience. Break things down into manageable pieces for each of them. Use varied approaches to explain the same exercise because dog training is not one size fits all. The theories, learning theory applies equally, but not necessarily the specific approach that you use to help them understand. I try to use a lot of humor to diffuse tension in classes, in private lessons. People are a little bit nervous.

They're a little bit uptight. So I try to make people laugh. If they can laugh, they feel better about themselves. And then whatever just happened isn't nearly as important as they thought it was. I try to be supportive when the dog or person is struggling to learn something. We've all been there. We've all done that. It's not easy. We're trying to teach new mechanical skills to people. They're trying to teach new things to their dogs. That's a hard combination. And I really respect people who make the effort to do that. At the same time, I encourage independent thinking and problem solving for the handler and for the dog. I cannot be there all the time when the handler is working with their dog. No instructor can. Even with the online classes, we can't be there. So if we give the handler the tools to come up with solutions to the problems on their own, now we've really accomplished something. Let them figure out how to solve the problem on their own. That's a big deal to me. I don't want to be spoon-feeding the answer to every little thing that's happening. So I applaud all their successes, however small. We celebrate everything. My students know that I always advocate for the dog. Whatever the situation is, I'm on the side of the dog. And I urge them to do the same thing. When they find themselves in other places, other situations where perhaps the atmosphere is not quite so positive or stressful for some reason, advocate for your dog. You're the only one that's looking out for them and they're counting on us to do that for them. So I really, really urge people to do that. And it's not just about using a clicker and cookies or any kind of a marker and cookies. It's about having empathy for a creature who is trying to communicate with us while at the same time we are struggling to communicate with them. It's all really very simple, but none of it's very easy. So that's my philosophy. Pretty simple, don't you think? Simple, but not necessarily easy. But not easy. But not easy. Yeah. Right. You kind of mentioned you've been in dog sports, you know, in one variety or another for, you know, you said since you were 15, I think. A long time. A long time. I was 22 years old the first time I set foot in the ring. Okay. So now people can do the math. So you know how old I am. So as someone who's been in dog sports for that long, what are some of the biggest changes you've seen, you know, over the last 10 or so years? Well, for even longer than that. But the sport of AKC obedience has changed dramatically since I started. Classes have been added and deleted. Exercises have been added and deleted.

The OCH, the Obedience Trial Championship, was introduced in 1977. And they added the UDX in either 1992 or 1993. I couldn't find the definitive answer for that. And I couldn't remember off the top of my head. The group stays, as of May 1st, have been made safer in the novice classes and totally eliminated in open. They've added a new and interesting and challenging exercise to open. Jump heights have been lowered twice. My little German shepherd, she jumped 32 inches when we started. Now she would have jumped probably 20 inches. And there are tons of exceptions from that, from the ones that jump height now, for the really giant breeze, the heavy bone breeze, the short-legged breeze, the brachycephalic dogs. They just have to jump three quarters their height at the shoulder. So that's a big change. Now, you've got to remember, all of this has been done with the hope of drawing more people into competition. And all of it has been done with the accompanying drama, controversy, charges of dumbing down the sport. Nobody's ever happy with whatever the changes are. But we've survived all these changes. And as far as, you know, what changes do I want to see in the sport? I don't really want to see anymore for a little while. I think we need to give things a chance to settle down. I think we need to give people a chance to simmer down because this was a very controversial thing, getting rid of the stays. And then people need time to train the new open exercise and give that a try. New people coming up will not know that things were different before. The command or cue discrimination exercise will be something that you teach for open. As opposed to people in a little bit of a panic now, if they've got their CDX and they're going on to a UDX, you know, they have their UD, they have to go back and teach a new exercise. And not everybody's happy about that. But I think it's all going to shake out in time as it usually does. People resist change because inertia is a really powerful force. And I think we need to move on. So that's how I see the changes in the sport. I'm very passionate about the sport or I wouldn't still be doing it. And I try and go with the flow with all these changes that have happened. Do you think or maybe you could talk about how, I guess, the addition of other dog sports, right, has changed obedience in particular? I mean, I feel like originally it was really confirmation and obedience, right? And now there's nose work and tricks and all sorts of things. Yeah. So I think that one of the main reasons for the decline in obedience entries is the proliferation of alternate sports.

When I started, like you said, it was basically confirmation, obedience, tracking, herding, and field. That was pretty much it. Look at what's been added, not only in sports in general, but there are multiple organizations now that offer their own variations on some of these previously existing activities. So I'm just going to rattle these off. Besides those, we have rally. We have agility with various venues. Earthdog, fly ball, multiple venues for nose work, lure coursing, barn hunt, dock diving, parkour, freestyle, weight pulling, frisbee, karting, sled dog, tri-ball, tricks, IPO, French ring. And that's without even really thinking about it terribly much, I came up with that list. And I'm sure there are ones that I have overlooked. So depending on what part of the country you live in, there are many options to choose from on any weekend. And some of these sports, at the beginner levels at least, seem to offer more immediate gratification with a shorter investment of training time than AKC obedience. This can be quite appealing to some competitors. But you have to, when you get to the upper levels of almost any of these activities, sports, training matters. It really matters. But there's another influence on competition, and I think that's the advent of the private training center. Back in the day, if you wanted to train your dog, you went to a training club. Once you got out of the puppy class, you were encouraged to join that club. In order to join that club, you had to attend meetings. You had to help out. You set up equipment. You swept the floor. You rolled up mats in the gymnasium. You stewarded the annual trial. And sometimes you became an assistant to a trainer that was already at the club. You became part of something. Now, don't get me wrong again. Training centers like Masterpiece, where I work, offer far more than the clubs ever could. Masterpiece has classes and activities seven days a week, morning, noon, and night. But most of the people come for that class and turn around and go home. So their exposure to the notion of competition may be more limited than it was when they went to a club. So only AKC clubs can put on an AKC trial. Without the clubs, there are no trials. Several New England clubs no longer exist because of the lack of membership. They had to just fold up and go away. So consider that. I want people to consider joining their local clubs. Support them. If you want to be able to compete, there have to be people working to put on the trials. And another thing, I also want to put in a plug for experienced exhibitors to become judges.

I don't care what your activity is. I'm an AKC open provisional judge now. In case anyone has missed this fact, the average age of judges is getting higher and higher. Without new, younger judges in the pipeline, competition will disappear because sooner or later, these judges have to retire. They can't go on forever. And there have to be new people coming up to step up and judge. Competition requires judges. So the other thing is that becoming a judge really changes your perspective of your sport. It's so easy to criticize the judge from outside of the ring. He didn't see this. He didn't see that. She missed this. She did something wrong. Yeah. Try stepping behind the clipboard and see how hard it really is to keep all the rules and regs in mind, to see everything that's going on. Mark it all down. Yeah. It's not that easy, guys. But I encourage everybody to do it because how else will we go on? So the other thing, I can only compete in New England. I go to my national specialty occasionally, not that much anymore, but I have traveled. But in this area, there seems to be an improvement in the general competitive environment. Experienced handlers seem to be a little more welcoming of newbies and more supportive of each other than maybe five years ago. So those of us in the FDSA world would like to think that training overall is moving in a more positive direction. Again, in my area, we have pockets of people devoted to that concept. But we're surrounded by more traditional training. That can feel a bit isolating. But the ripple effect that we talk about is a real thing. We do reach out to support each other. And we have an influence on what other people decide to do when we show how we behave with our dogs when we are in public, when we're at competition. People are watching when you don't think they're watching and seeing you celebrate with your dog, even if things haven't gone quite well. They don't miss that. And that's an important thing for them to see. So, yeah, things have changed a lot. Things have changed a lot. Yeah, for sure. But I'm hopeful for the future. I'm very hopeful for the future. So you kind of mentioned FDSA in there. And I'm really curious, what led you to the academy? I mean, how did you wind up there? I first encountered Denise at a seminar. And she's a dynamic presenter, right? She's got all this energy, talks really fast, is very excited. She's also passionate about what she does, committed to it. And her messages resonated with me in a way that nothing had since Patty. So I started following her blog. You know, there's a lot of information there.

Before FDSA, she offered an online course of relationship building through play, through another organization. I thought the idea was intriguing, but was really unsure, uncertain of how that could possibly work. So I got a working spot with Elphaba. And as we all know, it works great. And it was a fabulous class. And I've been a devotee of the academy since its inception. So that's how I came to FDSA. So we've talked through, and you had a ton of experience before that point. So what is it that kind of, I guess, keeps you involved in coming back? So this is a really easy one for me. I love dogs. I love dogs, number one. I love training, number two. I personally love how detailed oriented competition obedience is. It's not for everybody. I understand that. But I love that aspect of it. I love every training session. I love every class I teach. I love every lesson that I give because every single one of them is different. I really love how my classes are a level playing field. Everyone that comes to the sport is a newbie. Regardless of their professional and personal fields of expertise. I have doctors. I have veterinarians. I have lawyers. I have chefs. I have people who are really accomplished in their respective fields. They're all starting at the same place when they come to dog training. And none of that other stuff matters in the least. I love dealing with all the different breeds that come to me. That makes me a better instructor and trainer. I think to some degree, people like to bring their non-traditional breeds to me since I have skipper keys. I think they think I will have a different sympathy and empathy for the perception of what we can expect from the non-traditional breeds. And to a degree that is correct. Because I don't feel, oh, it's a terrier. It can't do that. It's a sighthound. We can't expect to be able to do that. Right? It's a fill in the blank. And therefore, yeah, there are predilections. But we can be successful if we work at it and if we want it with most breeds. And with SDSA specifically, I love how we have access to such a wide variety of subjects. World-class instructors from different parts of the world. And we never have to get out of our jammies if we don't want to. That makes me think of Sue's competition, her PJ competition of everybody posting pictures of themselves training in their PJs. Exactly. And I don't know if you saw it. Somebody was talking about SDSA swag that they bought. It was a sweatshirt or something. And I said, how come there are no SDSA pajamas? Yep. Yeah, we were looking at that. And they said, try to look at you.

I found on, this is an aside, but I found onesies, pajama onesies that you can get with your logo on them online somewhere. And I was sharing them with the other instructors. Like, I don't know. I think this should be what we wear to camp. I think it got vetoed. But I don't know. I still think it was a pretty good idea. It was small for some of us. Well, it's, you know, footie pajamas. One piece footie pajamas. Yeah. Hey, why not? You know some people would take you up on that. Right. Well, this has been a lot of fun. But since it's your first time here, I want to ask you kind of the three questions that I used to ask almost every episode. But now that people have been on once or twice, we kind of haven't gone back to them. So the first question is simply, what's the dog-related accomplishment that you are proudest of? Well, I'm not going to limit it to just one. I have a couple of things. Okay. To say. I'm really proud of the titles that I've earned with my dogs. With the Skipper Keys, some of them have been firsts for the breed. And it's really a nice thing to be able to say. What I'm most proud of, though, is how much I appreciate the partnership that I develop with my dogs as we go along. I have a bunch of candid photos that people have taken. And almost every one of them shows me looking right into my dog's eyes and my dog looking right back into my eyes. And I cherish those pictures and that feeling that I have. It's so special. And I can conjure that up at a moment's notice. And I almost get choked up every time I talk about it because it's just me and my dog and everything else just goes away. That is something that I'm proud of, that I have that connection with my dogs. That's kind of beautiful. I love that. Thank you. The second thing is that I love to share in the accomplishments of my students. That brings me so much joy that they are finding success and happiness in this sport. And I'm just thrilled for all of them. Every little thing that they do. And it doesn't always translate to a ribbon. If a person can come out of the ring when they have not qualified and come up to me and say, did you see that drop on recall? Or did you see how she worked articles when maybe that's something they've been struggling with and the dog did it? Even if something else went badly. And I've done my job of teaching that person to focus on the positive. And not worry about the rest of it. Because we can make that better too. So those are the things that I'm really proud of. I love that. So our second and second to last question is, what is the best piece of training advice that you've ever heard? Okay.

So I've got a couple of things here too. Okay. I do like to talk. That makes for a good podcast. So we're good. Well, thank you. Patty always said, when in doubt, put a cookie on it. That's it. That simple statement can address so many issues. When in doubt, put a cookie on it. Sheila Booth said, and I don't know, not, I don't know if too many people know who she is. But she's also in Chitzen circles, IPO circles. I think she's a little better known. But Sheila Booth said, they can do it for what they couldn't do before. So she's saying what they can do at age four, they couldn't do before then. Which again, speaks to patience and not showing prematurely. I firmly believe the dogs will tell you when they're ready to show. And don't rush it. There's no rush. Take your time. Put in the work and you'll be way happier. There are flyers. There are dogs that you can take at it one or two and accomplish great things. But for the most part, not so much. And then I have to say, I have a saying that I say to my students so much that one of them embroidered it on a vest for me. So in class, it always comes out when someone says, how come my dog did that? I always say too far, too fast, too much, too soon. So it's don't go too far, too fast. Don't do too much, too soon. That's how it got embroidered on my vest. So that's my biggest piece of training advice to put out there. Don't go too far, too fast. Don't do too much, too soon. I love that. That's awesome. Thank you. It has a certain sing to it. Too far, too fast, too much, too soon. So last question here for you. Who is somebody else in the dog world that you look up to? This is going to sound like a cliche, but I really admire Denise. In addition to being an outstanding dog trainer and instructor, she's a really smart business person. She works harder than any five people I know. She's created something unique with FDSA and surrounds herself with other smart people who help keep it running smoothly and efficiently, specifically you, Melissa, and Terry Martin. Yes, Terry's fantastic. It's an amazing thing. Yeah. Yeah. And then Denise's generosity to the dog training community always impresses me. There is so much free material and information out there. The blogs and these podcasts are free, of course. She joins in the conversations on the various Facebook pages and gives training advice there. She does her free live Facebook sessions. It's all free. I think the scholarships for free bronze-level classes and the contests for free bronze-level classes are amazing at making education available to everybody, even if you have limited means.

It's just a wonderful thing to put out there for people. And then, of course, the inception of team, that was also just brilliant. It's brought high-quality titling opportunities to anyone, anywhere, anytime. It forces people to pay attention to detail. There's a lot of precision required right from the basic foundation skills through the advanced levels. And people who do that are pretty well prepared for success in other types of competition. It was a brilliant concept and brilliant in execution. So I don't know what Denise has in store for the future, but I know she's been teasing us about something new coming in April. I don't like doing a piece like that. But I also can't wait to see what it's going to be because it's going to be great. I know it is. I will. So I have to say it's Denise. I will say that she is by far the most productive person I know. She gets more done in a few hours a day than most people do in a week. I don't know. It boggles my mind. It just boggles my mind. You are not the only one. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Esther. This has been great. I really appreciate it. This has been fun. I know it took us a little bit of time to be able to connect. I had a cold. I hope I sound okay because my voice was shattered last week. It was worth the wait. It was a lot of fun. And I'm very honored that you decided to ask me to do this. Well, I'm definitely glad that you could. Thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week, this time with Debbie Traca, to talk about exercise for puppies. If you enjoyed this episode, I hope you guys will consider hopping over to iTunes and leaving us a review. I know I've mentioned this the last couple episodes, but reviews really help the show. We've gotten a few new ones since I've started including this request. Like this one from Shout. Melissa does a great job interviewing accomplished guests filled with useful insights and funny anecdotes. Thank you, Shout, whoever you are. And while you're there, if you haven't already, I hope you'll subscribe to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Music by Chris Lang.