E142: 낸시 갈리아디 리틀(Nancy Gagliardi Little) - 힐워크에서 핸들러의 역할

So I invited you on today because I wanted to talk about heel work. So let's start by just kind of talking about what it is we're looking for, right? As somebody who is an obedience judge for a long time, what is really necessary to get a perfect score on the heel work portion? So we have two elements, or two, the dog and the handler. Both are going to be a part of the score. So a perfect score for heel work is going to be basically the dog and the handler are both going to be judged in that. So from the dog, you're going to need decent attention, good attention, and the ability for the dog to maintain heel position. In AKC, heel position is spelled out precisely. So the dog would have to maintain and hold that perfect position all the way through the healing portion of the exercises. For the handler, that would probably be more the person responds to the judge's directions and there's smooth transitions between each of the healing elements. And then there is a handling. That's kind of what we're talking about here. The communication of the handling to the dog is very important. So that's clear. And all that goes together into a package of, so a perfect score would just be in a judge's, from a judge's perspective, their perfect heel work would be a picture in their head that's going to be different for each particular judge. So it's just kind of a big, big, it's a big subject because every judge is going to have their ideal picture. And it's difficult. So exhibitors that do get that perfect score, those are nice performances. What are kind of the most common ways that teams lose points during kind of the heel work exercises? Yeah. Yeah. So there's handling mistakes that are going to happen. And they're not going to necessarily lose points, but they can't, those handling mistakes, they can actually confuse the dog and cause errors from the dog. So the dog could be penalized because of something that the handler did that caused some confusion. That happens quite, quite often. For instance, like the way a handler executes a halt, that's, that can be confusing to a dog depending on how they do it. They might, they might slow down a little bit, which might make the dog think that they're doing a slow change of pace into the slow. And then when they stop, the dog might stand there for a minute and then maybe not sit or sit. And that, that slowed down halt that the handler did, they wouldn't necessarily cause the penalty, but the dog was certainly confused and that would be penalized. Um, but the handler can lose points as well.

Um, if they don't follow instructions or, um, if they anticipate a, uh, uh, command that the judge is giving. Um, I would say though, that the most common way to lose points from a handler standpoint is the handler that is adapting to the dog. And that happens, that happens a lot. Um, and it's, it usually is unintentional. Um, the, the handler focus, focuses a lot on the dog and, and kind of adapts their pace to that dog. And, um, instead of letting that dog do the job that it was trained to do that, I think that's kind of the most common thing I've seen happen. Um, but one other common way to lose points from handlers is the, the handlers that don't move in a predictable manner. Like they're not moving in a straight line. They move away from the dog a bit or they move towards the dog. And that happens quite frequently. Again, that's caused by too much focus on the dog instead of on the handling. When you say, uh, they adapt to the dog, can you just kind of explain what you mean? Um, so like for instance, when they're walking in a straight line, they might be looking too much at the dog. Um, and maybe the dog slows down a little bit. So the handler slows down a little bit. Um, and, and what usually happens is the dogs start, it's very difficult to maintain heel position for dogs when handlers aren't just moving at a predictable, um, rhythm kind of a temple, you know, their, their footfall is in a good beat. Um, instead they're too aware of the dog and then they end up slowing down depending on the dog. And then the dog is like, what's going on? Um, it's hard. It's like, like dancing in a way. It's, it's, if you have, um, a dancer that, you know, is leading and I'm not a dancer, so I'm sorry if this is, if I'm not explaining this well, I'm terrible. Um, but if you have a dancer that is very good at leading, then it's easy to follow. But if you have tentative handling or whatever that's called in dancing, um, you're going to have a performance that's not so good. Also adapting on about turns. So that would be another place too, not just in straight lines. So like about turn would be, um, a turn, a complete turn. So you're, you're moving one direction and you do a 180, a complete turnaround to the right. Um, and you do that in place and that should all be done in a nice beat. No waiting for the dog. You just turn and the dog should, the dog and dog should show that they can maintain position while the handler turns. And what happens a lot of times is, um, the handlers kind of waiting to see what the dog is doing and going slower. Um, and that can be penalized that adapting.

Cause it, it does make it a little bit easier. It makes it easier, um, to maintain, well, um, easier probably isn't the correct word, but, um, a dog it's, it's much easier for a dog to be in heel position when the handler is changing their pace to that dog. So the team that just moves out where, and the dog does their job, the handler does their job, that team should get a better score. Right. So I asked about the rules, but obviously like kind of the rules and an ideal picture in a trainer's mind, aren't always the same thing, right? You kind of mentioned that when you're talking about each judge kind of has their own ideal picture in their head. So when you specifically, you are thinking about that ideal picture, can you describe that for me? What does that perfect picture kind of look like for you? Sure. Um, so, I mean, there would be two ideal pictures. One would be as a trainer. And so as a trainer, me as a trainer, that perfect picture is going to be quite a bit different than as a judge. So as a trainer, I'm very picky about that picture for heel work. Um, perfect for me, for my dogs would be when the dog is floating at my side or at the handler side to me, whether I'm talking about my dog or another dog I'm looking at, they're just floating at that side. And it almost looks like the team is physically connected. It's wherever the handler goes, that dog moves perfectly in line. And then the other piece of that for me is that, you know, looking at the dog, there's well, dog and handler, there's that joy and enthusiasm. To me, that's, that's an important part of healing. As a judge, however, it would be different. Um, unfortunately the obedience organizations here in the U S, um, it doesn't, it's, they're not going to penalize a lack of enthusiasm. Um, so you're going to see performances that have high scores where the dog is not showing that enthusiasm. Um, that to me is important as a judge. You cannot score that. If the dog maintains position, um, it, it would be perfect in terms of, of performance, um, in terms of scoring. So the ideal picture for me in training is not going to be the same as it would be for me as a judge. Right. Or a trainer. So you, you, you kind of talked a little bit about, you know, heel work as a dance earlier, kind of that idea of a partnership between a dog and a handler. But I think a lot of people often think about healing kind of as the dog's job. So can you talk a little more about the role the handler plays? Mm-hmm. Sure. Yeah. I mean, it, it is truly a dance. I mean, and when you have a dog that can heal really nicely, it feels, it feels so connected.

But to me, both the dog and the handler should have equal roles. Um, the handlers, it's super important for them to focus on their own execution of handling. And the dog should follow based on how they were trained. Um, so if the handler pays too much attention to what the dog is doing, then that execution of the handling is going to suffer. And when that stuff, when that handling suffers, so the performance is going to suffer from the dog because the dog's not going to necessarily know what is happening. Um, handling, if handling is going to be tentative, um, and too focused on the dog, the dog's going to pick up on that. So, um, I know Denise talks about leadership a lot. It's super important for healing to be, be a leader. Um, you exude this confidence. That's the wrong word, but you, you're, you're displaying confidence to the dog. Um, and the dog picks up on that. And if they're trained to maintain position, they're going to be there for all the moves. Even if your handling isn't perfect. Um, if they understand how to maintain heel position, your handling can be flawed slightly and they're going to, they're going to do their best. So I guess you're kind of talking about this idea of, like you said, confident wasn't quite the right word. So there's kind of this idea that, you know, you need to act the same way you acted in training rather than being more hesitant just because you're in the ring. Right. Is that kind of what you're, you're getting there? Okay. Yes. Just focusing on it's specifically focusing on execution of your handling and not as concerned about what the dog is doing. Um, so just more, more independence from, from the handler and their executes dog, dog follows. Um, so really, like you said, it is, it's, it totally is a dance for people. And I do think it's 50, 50. I think if we do our job and we've trained the dogs well, then the performance should go fairly well. I mean, obviously there's going to be mistakes. Dogs get distracted. Handlers get distracted. Um, so things like that can happen, but if both are focused, you know, things should go well. Um, but if, if the handler's too focused on the dog, then, then we have, we have an issue because they can't, you cannot execute the handling when you're too focused on other things. It's, um, whether it's distractions or, I mean, well, the dog is a distraction to, to the handler if they're focused too much on that. So it is just another distraction for them. For those like me who are fairly novice handlers, right? What does it mean to, to handle turn starts and stops and healing?

I saw that in your description and I was hoping you could kind of describe it a bit. Okay, sure. So in healing, there's many different elements. Um, there's turns, you talked about turns, starts and stops. Um, and we have to learn how to handle that appropriately with the dog so that they pick up on clear communication or cue. Um, we want the cue to be super clear so that when, when, when the dog sees that, they execute that behavior. Um, so it's, and it is important because different healing elements, the way they're handled by a person might be confusing. Just like any cues, when we teach dogs cues, sometimes we find out later, oh man, this, you know, the way, the way I'm cueing this particular behavior is very similar to the other. And the dogs kind of tell us that. So, um, so that, that's important that we, you would really look at, um, what is the dog saying? Um, is something confusing to them? And then we have to make sure that, that those cues are clear. Um, like for instance, um, I think, I, I don't know if I've mentioned it before, but, um, the change of pace from slow to normal, I think I mentioned this with the halts previously is the one, when handlers go from, um, a slow to a normal pace, that can be very similar to how a handler stops. If the handler starts slowing down first before they actually stop, that might, that, that beginning of that slow down before they stop might look very similar to the slow. Um, and so you might get a mistake from the dog because they're seeing that cue of slowing down and they're not sure what that means quite yet until the handler stops. So they have to wait to see as the handler continuing to move forward. Oh, okay. We're still going or, you know, Oh, the handler stopped. And, um, so that's a bit of confusion. So we need to, to make sure that all of those cues are very clear in terms of handling turns, starts and stops in healing. I think it's super important to do those in a consistent rhythm. So in other words, when I talk about rhythm, that's just kind of the beat that your feet hit the ground. Um, if you go in a, in a consistent rhythm and you execute those turns, the starts and the stops, all of those in that same beat, the dogs usually read those perfectly fine. It's when you go out of that rhythm that the dogs are alerted to that something's happening. And usually going out of that rhythm means that there's a change of pace, like a slow going into a slow or going into a fast. Um, but staying in a rhythm like that, dogs love that it's consistent. And so it's interesting to me that, that you picked up on the turn starts and stops.

Cause those three things, um, it's super important in healing. And if you watch some of the best handlers out there, they might not even know that that's what they're doing, but that's, you watch them and they're in a beautiful rhythm. Um, and I think watching that as a spectator, you feel that rhythm and it's pretty. Um, but, um, that's, that's what the dogs love. They pick up on that. So that tempo, it creates kind of a consistency to the dog and predictability. And that's huge for them. So, so, you know, dancing is always in rhythm. Um, it, you know, I mean, it's the same way it's, um, it's predictable and precise, you know, between movements, between partners. And without that rhythm, the dance would be super disconnected. And that's kind of what happens in healing is without that, that precise rhythm, you can get a big disconnect from the dog and you might not even know that that's what's happening. So that's one of the big pieces of handling. And I think that's probably one of the things we focus on at the start, um, to really make sure that everything's built on top of that. It's kind of a big foundation piece of training handling is getting that rhythm from the handler. You mentioned in the long answer for, for a short question. Yeah. Totally cool. Um, you actually kind of mentioned in the beginning there that, you know, it's particularly confusing if you're going from normal to slow or, you know, a stop is the same. So I'm trying to kind of, kind of trying to picture those, like how you would stop in rhythm in my head. Can you, it's hard to describe something like that in a verbal way when it's a visual thing, but. Sure. Um, yeah, no, it's, it's very easy to stop in rhythm. It's just, uh, it, it basically what you're going to do is you're going to shorten your strides a bit so that you can hit, you know, your feet can hit the ground and the same beat. So, um, as you, as you come to a stop, um, you're just the, your feet are just going to continue to hit in that same beat, um, by shortening your stride. Gotcha. Um, and the same thing when you take off, when you start, if you start with a couple short steps, kind of falling into that rhythm and that takes practice. We work on that in class is making sure that you can start and you can stop in that beat. And that solves a lot of problems. Mm-hmm. So we talked about that. Does that make sense? Yeah. That actually helps a lot. Cause it kind of helps me kind of picture in my head, right? Like, so instead of slowing the rhythm or slowing the speed, you're actually shortening your stride as a, as a nonverbal cue for the dog. Right.

And the dogs respond to that amazingly well when you insert them. I imagine it takes some practice on the handler side, but it does. It totally does. But the dogs once, once that rhythm is there from the handlers, the dogs just love it. Mm-hmm. So we talked about kind of a novice handler, right? What, if we're to kind of flip that and we're talking about, you know, maybe a less novice handler, what are some of the kind of the bad habits that they fall into that can, you know, throw things off? Uh, so like the, the more experienced handlers? Yeah. So just somebody who's not a novice, you know, maybe they've been doing this for a little while. What are some of the bad habits they kind of fall into that, you know, the class can help them fix? Um, I would say that again, it's too much focus on the dog. Um, it's, it's a distraction. And rather than just really focusing on the handling, um, itself, I think people in general try too hard, you know, they're trying too hard to make sure that the healing is perfect. And when you do that, you're focusing somewhere else. And the dogs sense that, that you're not focused on your handling anymore, like you are in training. So that's, I think probably the biggest thing is just where handler focus is, um, just making sure that they're, they're not distracted. Um, the other thing that happens, I think for more experienced handlers is, um, sometimes that change of paces are not quite as they're not done as well. Um, they don't, they don't go into the slow quite as smoothly and maybe to come out too quickly. Um, that kind of thing. But, you know, again, there's lots of, there's lots of things that happen. And, um, but I really overall, I think even novice, whether it's novice handlers or experienced handlers, I think it's the focus, the focus on the handling itself. Mm-hmm. If a handler is, you know, sitting here and listening to all this and they're thinking in their head, you know, something is definitely off when it comes to their heel work, but they aren't really sure what, right? So how can they tell if the problem is a training issue? So it's something where they need to work on it with the dog, or if it's a handling issue where they just need to get their stuff together a little bit better. Yeah, that's, that is a super great question. Um, and it's, it's not as easy, it's not really easy to answer, but you know, I'll give it my best shot. Um, so I think if the dog's been taught attention and they, they can maintain heel position, like I said previously in lots of places.

Um, and then also the same thing when, you know, you, you've got, you've got somebody else calling a pattern, a healing pattern, and that can be a distraction to, to a person. So if, if, if the dog does that well, but they're having issues otherwise, then it probably is a handling issue. But if you're, if the handler's not sure, okay, then I came up with a little checklist. Okay. If, if you're focused on your handling, so number one, are you focused on your handling and not the dog? That's one question. Do you maintain a nice temple while you're in a normal pace? That's another question. Are you moving in a predictable pattern? So like straight lines, are you moving in, you know, straight instead of veering to the dog, towards the dog or away from the dog? Are you turning in place when you turn around and not stepping into the dog or stepping away? Just kind of looking at those little pieces. If all of those, if you, you say no to any of those, then it's probably a handling issue. But it could still be a training issue too. So that's the tricky part. Because it could be just that you, maybe your dog needs more training on an about turn or, but you know, so it's really, it's really important to figure out the handling ahead of time. Make sure that that looks good. In agility, we do this a lot. We, we handle without the dogs. We do that a lot. You have, you have walkthroughs to make sure that, that your handling's in place and you visualize it. Um, I think it's super important in obedience to do the same thing is just make sure that you feel confident on each of the different handling or healing maneuvers. Are you comfortable with it? Are you doing it in a nice rhythm? Um, um, are you turning in place? Are you, is your, are you, so I always tell people in my class that, that when they turn in place on an about turn, make sure that they're, there is, they're in place just like a cone, like, so a dog can wrap a cone on the, you know, on a, if you send the dog on a fly, you don't want that cone moving to the right as the dog is going around it. You want to be just in that one place as the dog is wrapping. So those are the kinds of things that you want to look at as you videotape yourself handling without the dog. And I would really recommend people do that is do a few about turns or do a few halts or, you know, do healing in a straight line, handling in a straight line. Um, do it, videotape it, see what you think and, um, see if you are veering towards the dog or away from the dog on those straight lines. See if you are turning in place, see if you're keeping a good rhythm.

Those are all super important things to pay attention to. Then insert the dog and move the dog and see if that looks any different. If you're all of a sudden your handling starts to change and you look like you're not moving out as fast, then it is, then it probably is the handling. If you are moving out fast and, or, you know, in, in this moving similar to what you've done, um, without the dog and the dog isn't maintaining, then it's probably a training issue. That makes sense. Yeah. So we've kind of been, for lack of a better word, dancing around to like the class, right? I want to, I want to talk specifically about it for a minute. So can you just describe what it is you're, you'll cover and kind of how the class is structured? Sure. So we're going to cover all elements of healing. And I've kind of talked a little bit about them, um, throughout the, uh, the podcast here is, you know, we start with rhythm. Cause I said that previously, it's very much the foundation to the way I teach handling. And we work then into a normal pace, walking a straight line. We work on turns, we work on change of pace, um, and then the halts. And then lastly, we pull everything together and work on a figure eight, which is quite difficult. Um, it's a small space for a lot of healing. And so the way the class is structured, that's kind of the syllabus of the class. Um, the way it's structured is, uh, students are going to do all the homework without the dog. Um, and I, I really love to start students with exaggerated handler movement. On each of the different, you know, we'll, we'll go through each of those, um, healing or handling elements. And I like to work them so that the handler feels they, they really have to exaggerate their, their body movement to become more aware of what their body should be doing. And I feel that's really important because we do that with, when we train our dogs, like, you know, if you're working on left pivots, you really exaggerate that rear movement. Um, so that the dog really knows how to move that rear. Otherwise you get a little bit and they don't really know. It's the same thing with people is we want to make sure that, that, you know, for handling to really exaggerate that movement. So you become aware of it. And, and some of the more advanced or experienced handlers have a lot of trouble with that because they're very used to being stiff and still. And, um, um, and I really want to get that body moving so that, um, so that they understand the difference between the upper body, the lower body movement. Um, so I do that exaggeration first to kind of set the, set the ground.

And then as, as, as each student becomes comfortable with that, we start to make it a little more subtle so that it, it starts looking more like handling. Um, and if anything, you know, if there's any issues, we go back to that exaggerated movement again and pretty soon the handlers, they, they, they've got that subtle movement and I don't even, I don't stop at that then too. I like to challenge handlers then by making it a little more difficult. So with each of the different handling, um, pieces, I then challenge the handler on them by making it more difficult and see if they can rise to that occasion. Cause if they can do that, then when we insert the dog, it's less of a distraction. And sometimes we do insert the dog if everything's going well and they have a particular issue, we might get around to putting the dogs in as well. So like, I'll give you an example. Like, um, I talked about rhythm quite a bit here. It's kind of a big thing for me. And we work with a metronome, um, for, um, to really make sure that people can stay on a good, good tempo, um, when they, when they walk or they move out. And so somebody might be comfortable at, um, 132 beats per minute. Um, and, but I'm going to keep challenging them and make them, okay, let's see if you can keep up with one, one 36 and what about one 40 or maybe even higher than that. And that doesn't mean that that's what they're going to work their dogs at. But if you can maintain a rhythm at a very high rate, then you can maintain what happens to people is then they all of a sudden say, well, one 32 feels really slow to me. I'm, I feel much more comfortable at one 36. And, and what it does is it kind of pushes people out of their comfort zone and it, it, it allows them to find what's really necessary to become a good handler. And I challenge myself all the time too, is I, you know, I'll, I'll raise that metronome up to really high number and see if I can, you know, keep up, keep the beat. That doesn't mean you're moving faster. It just means you're shortening your stride because you have to hit the ground faster with your feet. So, um, but that's, it's a, that's one of the things I do with each of the different handling pieces. It sounds kind of fun. Yeah. It's super fun. So for those listening, this class healing, your healing handling, there we go. Is registering now it's open for registration until December 15th. Is there anything else students should know if they're kind of debating signing up? Sure. Yeah. Well, the one thing I want to say is I'm not trying to, I really want to emphasize that

I don't, I don't want to change anything that's working. So if people are happy with handling of certain pieces of their healing, there's no need to change. I'm not trying to, you know, shake everything up. Um, but if there's, if, if people have pieces that they feel uncomfortable with, then it might be worthwhile to take a look at the class. Um, the other thing that I want to mention that I haven't mentioned before is, um, this class is really based. I really promote it as, um, uh, a lot of people struggle with footwork. Um, and, and that's the whole reason why I developed this class. I had developed this as a class locally. And then, um, I think the history of this is I gave, I gave a session at one of the, the FDSA camps. I think it was the very first one, Ferret Palooza. And I gave, I gave a session on this and people loved it. And they said, you got to do a class on this because it really makes sense. And the reason why I developed this and, you know, I'm sure other people have done this. It's not, you know, but, but I, I saw my students struggling with footwork and, you know, judge, the judges call a pattern, healing pattern. And what, what, what happened to, to students is they would hear the judge say about turn and they would be on the wrong foot. And so they'd have to, they'd have to, they'd get all stiff and paralyzed and they couldn't function because that translate the translation from the head, the hearing, okay, about turn. Didn't translate well into what the feet were doing. And so I wanted, I wanted a way to get people away from thinking about what their feet are doing to think about how they move better spatially. In other words, you know, dogs pick up on, on movement of, of the handler. They, they naturally pick up on where the motion is going, which, you know, is a very natural thing. They also pick up a lot on upper body movement. So if you're just kind of sitting or let's just say you're, you're in the house and you're in the hallway and you're walking one direction, you naturally turn. Like if you think about, Oh, I need to go back to the kitchen to get whatever my, get some water or whatever, or wine. Um, and you're gonna, you're gonna, you're not just going to turn in place. You're probably going to look that direction first with your upper body and then your feet are going to follow. Well, before your feet even move your, if your dog sees that your head turn and your shoulders move, they already have switched directions. So it's super natural for them to do that. We use that in agility all the time.

Um, and, um, and so it's like, well, I, I wrapped that into, um, obedience and really get the handler to focus more on that upper body moving first before the lower body moves. And what that does is it really gives the dog some subtle cues that that's the direction they're going before the feet move. And you can have just a beautiful performance because the dogs know, um, seriously where they're going before the feet turn. And so that's, that's what I really emphasize in this class is to kind of get away from worrying about what those feet are doing because you can do just about any turn and people do so many turns as long as they're in place, as long as there's forward movement motion, as long as it's in rhythm, dogs will read it. It, it's just, it's pretty amazing. Can you share a tip or maybe a sneak peek that people can try, um, you know, from the class? Sure. And, and actually with that question, I was, it was actually gonna talk about the rhythm part, but, um, so what I would, what I would suggest is get, get a metronome, get a metronome out. Um, you can, you can get it, you can get them on as an app on your phone and that's really nice. And, and, and just start moving and trying to follow a rhythm. Start slow and see if you can keep in rhythm, um, moving a big circle or moving a straight line and see if you can follow that rhythm and see if you can start in rhythm. See if you can stop in that rhythm. Um, and, and, and the important thing is to feel that rhythm rather. This is what puts handlers in a zone is really feeling a rhythm. Um, and I don't know that, you know, I'm speaking from a handler standpoint. I didn't really, I didn't really think about, well, what do, what do I do? Cause it's really hard to know really what you do when you get into a zone. Um, you know, like when I would be healing my dogs, what do I do? And if I, if I really thought about it, I, you know, I would, once I started, I would just get in a certain rhythm with the dog and I wouldn't, I would not, I would stay in that rhythm. I would stop in the rhythm, start in the rhythm. And if, if, and one of the tricks in the tips I tell people, and it's in the class is if you can just sit there and move, you know, just kind of step in place, like you're marching, this is obviously without the dog, um, you're marching in place to that beat. See if you can just step out in that beat, start at, start at 128. Cause that's super slow and see if you can work yourself up to 132, maybe even higher. See if you can start and hit that beat right away and see if you can stop in that beat.

That's, that's a super, super good exercise. And if you can, you'll have beautiful starts and beautiful stops. Awesome. So I've got one last question here that I'm asking all of my guests lately. So what's something that you've learned or been reminded of recently when it comes to dog training? Yeah, that's, this is always such a hard thing because it's like daily I'm finding something that's, that's really important. But I think at least today I'm going to say sharing in the joy with others. So I really want people to not be afraid to compliment other, others, um, when they're struggling, when they have success, when somebody feels really excited and you think, well, that's not really that exciting, but still sharing that joy because it's super important to that person. And, and sharing in that joy just makes a big difference in, in people. We want to be surrounding ourselves with happy people. And then I think the reverse is just as important. So if somebody compliments you, make sure to thank them. Many times like we'll hear somebody, somebody will compliment us and we'll think, well, what were they thinking? But if, you know, if you happen to disagree with a compliment, just hold that thought to yourself because belittling your situation or disagreeing with that person when they made a special effort to tell you, they think you did a good job is really unkind to both yourself and that person. So I think that's kind of an important thing is I, I think we end up, um, being too hard on ourselves sometimes. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Nancy. This has been great. Yeah, this is fun. It's always fun. And thank you to our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with Denise Fenzie to talk about engagement 2.0, what's changed and how she's updating things. If you haven't already subscribed to our podcast and iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Line. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Today's show iso. Thank you.