E308: 크리시 슈란츠(Chrissi Schranz) - 자유롭게 돌아다니는 개부터 콜백까지

And it's just, it's really nice to be back here. Yeah. Speaking of the kind of free roaming dogs, do you want to talk a little more about that? I know you shared a fair bit kind of content, both in terms of like videos and some of the stuff on your website. What kind of draws you to them as you travel? I think it just started with me loving people watching, just sitting on a park bench and watching the world go by. And people watching at some point turned into dog watching. So I can spend hours observing free roamers or following them around town. And I've learned a lot from them and from the dog cultures of Latin America. And even when the dogs are out with their people, they're usually off leash, which is also my favorite way of walking. And there's a tendency of communicating with ease or just politely greeting and moving on when two or more dogs run into each other. It amazes me how socially savvy most of these dogs are. And I love observing them so much that I've even dedicated a YouTube channel to them. And I try and share a video about their interactions and body language every two weeks. Very cool. Do you want to mention the name of your YouTube channel? I think it's called Free Ranging Dogs. Awesome. So if folks want to go look that up, I will try and include a link to it in the podcast notes if you guys want to go take a look. Yeah, I'll send it to you after. I think that's probably a pretty different lifestyle, right? Than like a lot of like your Western pet dogs maybe get to live. How do their lives kind of differ, you know, from those of non-free roaming dogs or kind of like, I don't know, your typical pet dog in, you know, the USA maybe? So I see that what stands out to me most is that I see much less reactivity in free roamers than in Western pet dogs. Or in my clients. But I'm probably biased because the people I work with often look for a dog trainer because there is reactivity. So it's hard to say if that is actually representative of the general pet dog population. But like if it is, I can only speculate why. But maybe part of it is that free roamers self-select for dog-dog sociability. And we don't do that when we're breeding them on purpose. We select for other qualities. And maybe dog-dog sociability is one minor slice of the pie. But it's not the main criterion. And here I think it is, or it's a selective advantage to be dog-dog social. So definitely a much stronger one than it would be in the pet dog or sport dog world. And I mean, it could also be, and it's maybe a combination of all of these factors, that

Western pet dogs don't have the same level of at-liberty dog-dog interactions as free roamers. So these dogs here, from puppyhood onwards, they grow up with other dogs all around them and learn from them as they interact with them. And then, of course, maybe there is more leash or barrier frustration among pet dogs or sports dogs. I really don't know, but the difference is fascinating. And it does seem very obvious to me. But again, that could be my bias based on the dogs I work with. But around here, even when scuffles occur, no one tends to draw blood. And the people, if a dog is out with their people, usually the people just shrug conflicts off and the dogs do the same thing. And everyone moves on with their lives. It's a very different culture than countries like the US today have. And I think this culture still exists in rural parts of Switzerland or Austria. And because you've got free roaming farm dogs there. And US cities also used to have this kind of culture up until like the 70s. Because I looked at some research papers. And there's one about free roamers in Baltimore from the 70s. And I think another one also from around that time, looking at free roaming dogs in Chicago. But I think things just have changed rapidly in the last couple decades. And people don't really remember what it used to be like anymore. And many younger generations never experienced that. So I'm trying to show them a slice of that on my YouTube channel. Super interesting. Because when you do hear about free roaming dogs here in the US, at least in my experience, usually they're a nuisance, right? Like, so I'm currently at my parents' house. And their neighbors don't keep their dogs on leash or in their yard. And their dogs roam up and down the neighborhood. But they also get hit by cars fairly regularly. And they chase cars. And they do all sorts of things that get them into trouble. You know, it's kind of interesting to hear how much the dogs on there seem to be adapted, right, to that lifestyle. Versus like just being able to take a dog here that wasn't necessarily bred for that. Or there aren't the genetics behind it, maybe. You know, just kind of thinking it through as I say it. But it certainly seems different. Yeah. And I mean, I think what you say about them getting hit by cars, that I'm sure that is true here as well. You see dead dogs on highways that have towns next to them. Like you learn or you get run over. And that is the reality. I believe that's just the reality of it. Because other dogs I see who know when to cross the street or to stay on their side of the sidewalk. Because they've learned.

So, yeah. I mean, you can romanticize it all you want. That is definitely part of their reality as well. Yeah. Yeah. It's really interesting. How has, you know, your observations about these dogs and kind of the time that you've spent watching them and learning from them and learning about them kind of influenced the approach that you take to training? Like the biggest influences it has had is it has made me more aware of a dog's baseline needs and the importance of having them met. So, if someone comes to me with a behavior problem, I want to first make sure that the dog has an opportunity to be out and about and sniff and just be a dog. And do whatever it is. And do whatever it is this particular dog enjoys. And then we address the behavioral issue. So, it's secondary now. And it used to be primary for me when assessing a dog. But now I feel like the dogs I see around here are kind of the proto dog. And many of the behaviors that they are showing are those are normal dog behaviors. And giving Western style pet dogs an opportunity to display a version of those behaviors may up their life quality quite a bit, in my opinion. Anyways. I think I've kind of seen a trend towards that, right, recently in the last, I don't know, I've been doing the podcast now for about five years. Maybe in the last, like, two to three years even of folks who, at least anecdotally, have noticed a definite correlation between dogs being able to get their behavioral needs met. Like, just in terms of, like, being outside and being dogs and getting adequate enrichment and what have you. And it's significantly reducing a lot of behavior problems. It's really kind of an interesting thing, right? Yeah. And it makes perfect sense once you think about it. And, like, all those food toys, for example, are snuffle mats that we have or make or give our dogs in the house. Like, free-roaming dogs basically do that all day long. They snuffle and or they use food toys by getting into a trash can. We're basically just recreating these behaviors for them in a way that can be brought into the living room. And, like, an off-leash walk where the dog gets to set the pace and sniff and run or walk or whatever. Like, it's different for every dog. That, again, is what a free-roaming dog would do all day long. They get to set the pace. They get to wander. They get to sniff where they want. So I feel like we rediscover this. And we kind of think of it or often we have this tendency to think of it as this new thing that Western-style pet dog or sports dog trainers have come up with. When really, that's just what it is to be a dog. Yeah.

So to not totally change topics, but shift a little bit, since we talked last, I believe you also started a podcast, right? Yeah. Do you want to share a little bit about it? Way too long that we've last talked. I seem to have done a million things. Yeah. I started the kind of podcast that I wanted to listen to. And it's called Our One Wild and Precious Lives and Our Dogs. The title is taken from the last line of a Mary Oliver poem that I really like. And the original line is, tell me what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life? It's a storytelling podcast where I have conversations with people I appreciate about topics I care about. And it's about living off the beaten track and, of course, about dogs. It's very eclectic. But somehow it all ties together. That's not the only new thing you've kind of been up to, right? I believe you also became a certified control unleashed instructor. Is that right? Yeah, that's right. I've wanted to do more CU stuff ever since reading Leslie's first book. Many CU games and patterns are approaches I've used. I've been coming back to over and over again for my own dogs and client dogs. And then one day I talked to Leslie because I wanted to learn more and have a mentor. And then I ended up working on the certification. And it's a really amazing program. Yeah. I say all the time, I think she's brilliant. I don't know how she quite comes up with some of the concepts that she does, but a lot of them are simple enough that they're easy to understand and implement, but complex enough that they seem to tap into, you know, whatever the dogs actually need in the moment to kind of help them overcome things. It's really quite fascinating. Yeah, I love how adaptable they are. It's really amazing. Yeah. Can you share a little bit about kind of the experience of going through the program and maybe kind of how you're applying what you learned? Yeah, I think it may have changed by now because I believe it's now being run on clean run rather than by Leslie themselves. So I'll just share my own experience. It may be different now. I don't know. Because it was COVID times, we could record videos of working with clients online as well as offline. And we could use our own dogs and client dogs. And I personally ended up doing a bit of everything because I wanted feedback on a bit of everything. So in my video submissions, there are some online clients, some in-person clients, my own dog, and also a puppy I borrowed. And some of the submission videos ended up being step-by-step guides for how to teach a certain pattern.

And others just show the first step or the final result of a game. And I really like how much flexibility Leslie gave us in approaching this so we could share different steps in the journey towards different goals with different dogs and get feedback on that. And that was just a really, really amazing experience. And Leslie's feedback is always kind and constructive. And, yeah, I've appreciated it so much. And one of the best... I know you've shared some interesting content on your site, just kind of adapting some of what you learned. Yeah. Sorry, go ahead. You started to say something about the best. Go for it. Yeah, no, no. And that is actually what I was going to say. Okay. So, like, in the pattern games, that's one of my favorite parts, is that Leslie really stresses that we should modify the patterns so they make sense for the learner in front of us. It's not about teaching this one pattern and then sticking to it and doing the exact same thing for every single learner. And it's been so helpful to experiment with different patterns and really tailor them for a particular dog or other animal and their needs. Because the concept behind Control Unleashed is making the world a little more predictable and a little less scary. But what exactly that means looks really different for every learner. Yeah. And in terms of how I've been applying it, there's a little bit of CU in my out and about class. But I mostly use it for private students online or offline. And more so now than previously. I currently, for example, have the amazing opportunity to explore Control Unleashed patterns with two amazing horses and their awesome person. And I am so grateful for this. I am learning so much about horses along the way. It is really cool. That's pretty neat. Where are you? Are you doing that locally? Are you doing that online? I'm doing that online. That's so cool. There. Yeah. All the way across the world. I don't know if that's better or worse in some ways. You know what I mean? Sometimes it's so fun to be able to see some of that stuff in person. But also like online. Then you have video content and you can watch it again. Yeah. I feel like it's both. It's like, yeah. It's always both. All right. So you've got kind of to shift to some of the FDSA stuff you're working on. You've got your recall class back on the schedule for this coming term. I was taking a look at it kind of before we hopped on and really loved kind of how you broke some of the stuff down in your description. So what goes into, you know, building a really fantastic recall? So my answer today is two ingredients. One, the science of learning.

And two, lots of fun. So really quite a simple recipe. You just have to find the right ratio for the learner in front of you, right? Very simple, but not so easy, huh? Yeah. Do you want to elaborate just a little bit? The way I teach it in this class, I'm just starting from scratch. So it's really a gateway class. And you can take it with a puppy or a newly adopted dog. Or you can even take it if you have never trained a dog in your life. So I'd call it a beginner's class. But it can also be taken by advanced trainers at the gold level. So if you're new to recalls, bronze should give you all the information you need. But if you're struggling with a particular recall challenge as a more experienced trainer, yeah, gold is a good way. And you'll get personalized feedback. And we'll tackle that challenge together. I really like making my gold spots about whoever is taking them. And I don't mind going a little bit beyond the class material there. So that's also always an option. And also this term, I have an amazing TA for the first time. And so I believe this will be the best round of calling all dogs yet. So thank you for TAing, Chris, in case you're listening to this. Awesome. You mentioned kind of advanced skills. Do you have an example maybe you could share that somebody might ring true for someone? So in the past, I've had a really, really good trainer with a border collie who tended to chase cars. So like in their yard. But they wanted to be able to interrupt that behavior. And that would definitely be an advanced skill. Something like that. So you already have a really good baseline recall. But there's this problem you're really struggling with. I'm not like the class materials do not focus on that. They really focus on building a recall from scratch for a dog who does not have a recall or who has a very weak recall currently and needs a new one. But whoever shows up at the gold level, I just make it work for them. And sometimes that means, you know, we work on not chasing cars. Right. Yeah. But otherwise, like in general, out and about would be you could like would be more advanced in that respect. But I usually have like there's usually one person or two who already have a strong recall and this very specific issue that they really want resolved. And if it's gold, I can make that work. So can you tell us just a little bit more about the class, kind of what you cover and any prerequisite skills maybe that teams should have? Or I mean, it sounds like it's pretty, pretty low on the on the prereq skills. So no prerequisites.

We start with relationship building and games as a foundation for a strong recall. So the first two weeks are not about the recall at all. They're just about getting to know your dog, having fun with them, connecting with them in new ways, including out and about or in difficult environments. And also testing out what their strongest reinforcer is. And then we break things down as finely as they need to be broken down for a particular dog. So, for example, I break things down in terms of environment. So easy environment, intermediate environment, difficult environment. Then there's a long line stage and a stage where the distraction is being protected, for example, behind a fence or in a wire crate. And then an off leash stage. And we also introduce distractions, again, starting with an easy one, going to an intermediate one and finally a difficult one. And not everyone gets to the distraction step. It really depends where you start out at and who your dog is, because every dog learns at a different speed. And every student, every human student has a different amount of time to dedicate to a class like this. And this is a class that will require you to sometimes go outside. Like you can't do everything in your living room and then expect it to work on the trails. So it really depends also on how much time you have to put into the class, how far you will get. Yeah. Any kind of final thoughts or kind of key points you want to leave folks with before we call it? Well, I thought about this question because you sent me the question earlier. The questions earlier. And if I could make a final point today, it wouldn't be about recalls. It's just to love your dogs. They are amazing. And they take us so many unexpected places. And I'd be a different person today if it wasn't for all the dogs who shared my life. And if you're listening to this, it's probably true for you as well. Yeah. I like that. That's a good place to leave things off. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Chrissy. Thank you so much for having me. I know this was a little bit of all over the place, but it has been a lot of fun talking to you, as always. Likewise. And yeah, we talked about a bunch of different topics, but I think it's good, right? I think that the variety is the spice of life. Yeah, I agree. All right. And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week. Don't miss it. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available.

Today's show is brought to you by the Fendi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fendi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Body. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. See you next week. Thank you.