에피소드 08: 스테이시 바넷 인터뷰

I did start out with a little bit of agility, a little bit of rally, not successfully. I don't have a successful path in any of the sports. You know, it really, you know, nose work's really it for me. Well, what led you to specialize in nose work? Obviously being good in it is a big plus, but kind of what led you down that path? I have to say it was a little bit of a whim. And I decided, you know what, hey, I, I'm, you know, I'm going to try nose work. And, you know, I tried it with, you know, with Judd and he just kind of, he gravitated to it. And I just saw this passion come out of this dog. A dog that, you know, he's got a nickname called Fragile Little Flower. He's a, he's a washout. And, you know, I hate to, I'm saying that in a very loving way, but he's a little bit of a washout in a lot of the other sports. You know, I tried all these other sports. He's got some titles. Um, but he was really only, only doing the sports because, you know, I wanted him to, and it was to please me. When we got into nose work, he, he just kind of was like, wow, I really love doing this. And to see my dog so passionate about a sport. And so, you know, this inner drive, this inner, inner excitement, this inner desire to do the sport, it just, it made me passionate about it. Um, and then I saw, you know, with my other dogs, the, the, the benefits that, that nose work provides. And it's, it's just become something that, um, you know, that, you know, I just, I, I eat, sleep, breathe nose work at this point. So you kind of mentioned the benefits in there. Um, I know that nose work's often referred to as a confidence builder. Is that what you're kind of alluding to? Yes. Yes. Nose work is not only a confidence builder. It can also help reactive dogs. Um, nose work itself is very reactive dog friendly in most venues, uh, because the dog doesn't have to work within, um, you know, eye shot or ear shot of another dog, you know, they, they get to work on their own. However, it really does help from a confidence perspective. The, um, the sense of smell is actually pretty amazing. It goes through the limbic system, which means that it goes through the hippocampus and the amygdala. So that's kind of, you know, that's the areas that the amygdala is kind of the fight or flight area. And the hippocampus is responsible for developing those early memories. So what happens is that dog is scenting and the dog is usually using, um, about, you know, one eighth of his brain, um, with scenting. And this is all going through this, the system where, you know, that that's responsible for emotion and responsible for, for memory.

If we can develop this positive, this positive feeling toward sensing and towards scent, we can actually help to put the dog into a really good space so that they can work. Um, and also, you know, as long as you're working the dog under threshold, um, the dog is able to continue to work and, and you can, um, and will actually become more confident over time and, and actually less reactive over time. I saw this particularly with my little dog, Y. When he came to me, he could not work at all away from the house. Um, he was also fairly reactive to other dogs, had about a hundred foot visual threshold to to seeing other dogs. Um, now through nose work, he has, uh, developed a lot of, a lot of confidence. He's now able to search in novel environments, you know, with, with very, very little acclimation. And he's also, uh, quite a bit less reactive. I can actually take him. He's got about an eight foot visual threshold now to other dogs, which, which I think is absolutely amazing. So the behavioral benefits, especially for a dog like Y have just, they're off the charts, absolutely off the charts. I hadn't realized that part of that was tied into the actual areas of the brain and some of the science behind that. That's really kind of neat. Oh, it's fascinating. It's absolutely fascinating. Um, you know, and then it's also, you know, if you have a dog that is, um, that has a lot of energy or a dog that might be on the hyper side, it's really a fantastic way to get them, you know, get them all on the tired side because they're using so much of their brain. You know, they're also have a tendency to be less reactive in the moment because that an eighth of the brain of the dog is being used at the time. Um, so, so they're a little bit less focused on what they, what they see and what they hear. I was going to say nose work seems like it's really unique. And just even in the sense that most sports, we really want the dog focused on what we're telling them to do. And it's really dog led, right? Oh, it is. It is. It is. And I like to say it's actually kind of, you know, when I tell my, my students, um, when they're handling, I say, try to think of it as 80% dog, 20% handler. You know, you're, you're in there and you are, you have responsibilities for the search, but the, but the search is really driven by the dog. We use something called scent theory. Right. So, but, but again, it's just theory. So although we have ideas of what scent does, we really don't have a perfect representation of what, what scent does, except by watching the dog.

Cause the dog is, um, dogs are able to, I don't know if you know this, but they're able to scent directionally. Um, which actually means that, you know, like with a human, we can hear directionally. So if I'm talking to you, you know, if I'm in front, in front of you or behind you, um, dogs are able to do this with their nose. So they really have to drive the search. This is something that, you know, we're, we're not able to get in there and be involved in this, but at the same time, we have to make sure that we're covering the search area and we have to interpret our dog's body language, uh, because we have to be able to say, has, is the dog at source and, and call alert so that we can get credit for that hide. Um, it's, it's, it's really, um, so it does require a lot of, a lot of teamwork, but it is driven by the dog. Absolutely. And, uh, you mentioned kind of reading your dog's body language. I feel like that, that in and of itself is such a valuable thing for people who have dogs who are behaviorally challenged in whatever way. Just, yes. Yes. So I don't have official figures, uh, but at least anecdotally, it seems like nose work is one of the fastest growing dog sports out there. Do you kind of agree with that? Is that accurate from your perspective? It's growing by the pretty, pretty good clip. Yeah. Um, last figures I heard, uh, with the NACSW, I think there are like 15,000 dogs registered at this point. That's kind of incredible. I mean, I'm a tri-ball competitor and I can see just comparatively speaking, nose work has taken off in a huge way. So I was wondering if you could give us like a 10,000 foot view for people not involved in the sport, you know, maybe what venues are out there, um, anything else that people should know if they're just learning about the sport or just starting to, um, become interested. Oh, certainly. Certainly. Um, essentially what the dog is looking for is, is essential oil. And what we use, um, we typically use, we use scented Q-tips. So the dogs are able to actually source or actually find these scented Q-tips and they're hidden. We call those hides. Um, they could be hidden in a number of different elements and depending upon which organization you're competing in, you might have different elements. And these are just basically different searches that the dog has to, um, has to do. The searches could be inside a building. It could be outside a building. You know, in some venues, he might have to search the, um, search vehicles. Although we never actually searched the interior vehicles. We're just searching the outside of them.

Um, or you can be searching containers. So containers could be boxes. It could be luggage. Um, or, you know, in some venues they're, they're even height, you know, they're even burying or starting to bury, um, the scent in the ground. And the dog has to be able to, to locate the source of scent and then to communicate the location of that to the handler. You know, what we do is we train the dogs very similarly to the way, you know, like drug detection dogs are trained. Um, so it's kind of like having your very own pet detection dog, which is, which is actually, which is a lot of fun. It's really a lot of fun. I mean, I, you know, as an aside, I mean, I was driving down the road the other day and I saw, um, you know, a couple of police cars pulled over and I saw somebody putting a Labrador into the back of, um, back of a vehicle or, you know, a policeman putting a Labrador into the back of a vehicle. I'm like, oh, I know what you're doing. It's kind of exciting. Right. Right. You know, in terms of venues or organizations, what, what does that look like right now for the sport? So that, that's also growing. So the, uh, probably the largest organization in the United States currently is the National Association of Canine Scent Work or NACSW. Um, that's one, you know, it's a very large organization. I compete a lot in that organization as well. Um, in the United States, we also have the United Kennel Club or the UKC, um, that also has, um, has their own version of scent work. Um, AKC is coming out with a version, um, that's actually going to be, um, those trials should be available starting in October of this year. We have, uh, organizations popping up worldwide. We have a, um, an organization in Canada, which is SDDA. We have others, and they use, you know, some slightly different odors, but then there's a handful of other venues. So basically if you want to do nose work, there's something out there and available for you and it's just growing. Is there a lot of crossover between the different venues? Like if you train in one, is it possible to compete in others or is that kind of difficult to do? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, I've trained in, um, or I've, I've, I've competed in NACSW. I've gone up to Canada. I've competed in SDDA. I've done a little bit of UKC and I've also, I'm a performance scent dog judge. Um, that's another organization, uh, that's also growing. I compete there. Um, most of the organizations will use, you know, a lot of the same odors. Some of them use slightly different odors, but it's very easy to get your dog onto a new odor.

Um, that's a very easy thing to do, but essentially at the core of it, the dog is still searching. The dog is still, um, identifying, you know, where the location of, of, of the hide and it's still communicating that location to the handler. So although there are small nuances between differences between the, uh, between the organizations, they're all pretty much consistent. So you mentioned AKC's new program and congrats. I hear you've been approved as a judge. Thank you. What do we know about the program so far? Uh, you mentioned they're starting up in October. It's a, it's a new program. The, um, the preliminary rules and regulations are out there. There's still, I think some discussion about the fourth odor, which right now is identified as peppermint. Although I think they are, um, they're still, you know, trying to decide, I think if that's going to be the final odor. I've heard, I've heard some, some things that, you know, they might be reconsidering that, but otherwise it's still the same first three odors as a lot of the other organizations of perch, and it's in close. Um, the AKC, um, also is going to have buried hides. So this is where, um, at the, the novice and at the advanced level, you're going to have, the hides are actually going to be buried in dirt in a container and the dog has to be able to pick out the right container. At the higher levels, they're going to have a, a larger area and it just might be outside and the hides will be, be buried up to eight inches deep into the ground, uh, for the dogs to be able to find. Um, they have that. They also have as a part of the AKC program is handler discrimination, which is essentially the dog is looking for the handler scent, um, which is, you know, trained very similarly to looking for an essential oil, but it requires, you know, some, some different skills for that. Um, and, you know, I think it's going to be a lot of fun. I think it's going to provide, um, you know, a lot more trialing opportunities for folks and, um, and, and open up a lot more doors for a lot, for a lot of dogs. Obviously just AKC's marketing program in and of itself is so much more robust than any individual organization can easily kind of manufacture. So hopefully that'll, uh, give the sport an additional boost too. I heard a rumor that there's a new FDSA class in the works, uh, specifically to prep competitors for, uh, the new AKC program. What do you know about that? Well, uh, funny that you ask. I was working on a syllabus for, uh, for, for one of them, um, this morning. We're actually taking a look at the, the, the whole program.

And we, we think of FDSA nose work as preparing the competitor for nose work, regardless of what venue you compete in. So we're not focused on just one specific venue. So in order to, um, prepare our students also for AKC, we're going to be making some, some key changes to our program and adding material. Um, there are a couple of different classes that are, um, in the works for April. Um, that, that people, um, can register for, you know, come registration, um, that have to do specifically with AKC. Um, I'm doing one that's going to be, um, AK intro introduction to AKC scent work. And in that class, what we're going to be doing is actually practicing each of the different elements and learning how to do buried hides and learning how to really, um, you know, work the dog within the, you know, the, uh, with using the challenges that AKC is going to provide and a lot of the, you know, within the guidelines of AKC. And Julie Simon is doing a, um, going to, going to be doing a really great class of handler discrimination. Cause you know, she's got, um, she has an arch. She, so she's done a lot of scent discrimination work. So she's able to actually take, um, her obedience side and bring a lot of, um, a lot of that experience to the table as well. So, you know, so we're going to have the class on handler discrimination. Um, and then we're also going to be looking at our core classes and saying, what do we need to do to help to make those, um, more applicable to people who want to also trial on AKC? So there's a whole lot of stuff going on with that. Um, and, and I think it's really going to position our students into our, you know, and really put them into a good position to be able to take advantage of AKC. I think Denise had mentioned the goal is kind of to offer enough classes between now and October that theoretically FDSA students could be competing when the, uh, first trials are available in October. Is that right? Yeah, I think, I think that's about right. Yeah. So my understanding, not being a nose work competitor is that there are a few common methods out there for teaching the fundamentals. Just based on my research at FDSA, you guys use operant conditioning. Can you explain a little bit what that means and maybe what some of the other things are out there, what maybe the advantages are, um, to that method? Yeah, sure. Certainly. Um, basically what I want to do is preface this with all methods work. Um, there are a lot of methods out there, uh, for, for teaching those work. And, um, as long as they are, you know, and I have to say that all the methods I know of

are based on caring for the dog and they're really positive in their approach. So I do want to say that all the methods work. Um, so I'm not, you know, one to say, you know, one method works and one doesn't. Um, but I do think that the method that we teach at Fenzie Dog Sports Academy is, um, is a fantastic method and it does use operant conditioning. So basically the dog learns, learns clarity at the get go. They learn kind of a cause and effect relationship. They learn that, you know, putting their nose on, um, on source or on the source of, of an essential oil, right? The, the, the odor from the essential oil, um, results in the cookie. Um, or, you know, I, I use cookie generically. I use, I use things like hot dog. Um, but it, it, exactly. That's still a cookie, hot dog cookie. Um, so, but what they learn is that they learn the very, very clear from the get go that, um, their action results in reward. It's a very, very clear, uh, way of, of teaching those work. We also introduce, um, hunting very, very early on. So they, they understand the discrimination. You know, it's defined odor, you know, like, so for instance, we'll start out with containers and they can actually pick out the right, the correct box with the odor in it. And then we also start, we, we build hunting into that, um, uh, into that approach so that the dog also learns that they have to, they have to search for it. And it's not just selecting, um, one box out of money. You know, one large method is use, uses, um, hunting for food initially. And then they use classical conditioning to, um, pair odor with the food and then wean off the, um, wean off the pairing. All of the, I'm sorry, wean off the foods that they just have the odor. So all of the methods do work and, um, and they get you to the same place. But I have to say, I think our method, it, it, it's very quick and it's very clear to the dog. And I think from clarity perspective, clarity builds confidence. So I really think that the method itself helps to build confidence in the dogs. The other nice thing is that, you know, as the dog goes up in levels, food is used as a distraction. So if we start the dog on odor only, the dog never, um, feels that they can self-reward on food, right? So food is, is already out of the equation. We don't have to teach the dog. Okay. You know, I know you've been searching for food in the past, but now, you know, food is, is no longer an option. So I think it's, um, it's a, it's a really clear way of, of the dog being able to, um, understand what, what's going to result in a reward and understand exactly how to, how to

play the game and how to win the game. Now, I know that a lot of the kind of the questions I came up with because I don't compete in those work. We're a little bit beginner things. So I wanted to make sure we included something for the people out there who are probably your number one fans who are actually actively competing in the sport. I was curious if there's one skill or one problem that you find people having issues with again and again, and, uh, kind of what you recommend or how you typically suggest they tackle that. So I don't actually necessarily see a particular skill. Actually, I do see a skill that, uh, that I see that people have a hard time with, but I'm going to talk about this in two stages. So the first thing that I, that people that are focused too much on skills, um, and not enough on, on the foundational aspects of, of good training, um, is just what I see in general. Um, it's not focused, you know, anywhere specifically, but it's just what I see in general. When I teach, I use a framework and that framework is built like a pyramid. So at the bottom of the pyramid is, is the first layer is confidence. And then on top of that layer is motivation. And then the third layer of that pyramid is skills. So you don't even get to skills until you've, you've built up a good foundation of confidence and motivation. Then the final layer of that pyramid is stamina. So what I like to do, you know, when I'm taking a look at a, at a dog and I want to see, you know, do, does the dog have an issue and what kind of problems is the dog exhibiting? I try to take a look at this framework of confidence, motivation, skills, and stamina to try to understand where, um, where the breakdowns are occurring. And a lot of times the breakdowns do occur in confidence or motivation. It really isn't skills based. So when I see a dog that's struggling in nose work or having a really hard time with one thing or another, um, what I'm finding is it's not a skills issue. Usually, usually it's an issue with, um, with a motivation issue or, or it's an issue with the dog's confidence, either their confidence in their skills or the confidence in their environment. I find that if you remedy these things that, you know, then the dog is able to tap into their skillset and they're actually able to be a lot more successful. So that's kind of, um, the one side of things, cause I like to, again, diagnose based on, um, that framework. The other side of things that, you know, if we're going to talk about specific skills that I think a lot of dogs, um, do have a problem with, and it's, it's a fundamental

skill that I think, um, you know, sometimes we, we don't pay enough attention to, um, is actually, uh, when the dog is, is searching at the higher levels, they have to be able to search and source more than one hide. So what I've actually taught my dogs is once they find a hide and they get rewarded for it, that hide is essentially finished. So the dog is able to then work on the next hide versus if we say, find another, the dog might just go back to the previous hide and expect reinforcement. So there's a, you know, a certain amount of training that has to go, um, and that has to be put in place so that a dog can effectively search for more than one hide. Um, this is especially important if you're working on a converging odor where the scent cones overlap and the dog might have to work for, uh, find multiple hides within a small area. So by being able to, um, give this dog this skill and if the dog has the skill, they're able to find a hide, search, find another hide, search, find another hide without having, um, to be, without being enticed back to an original hide. And I find that that's a really core skill that, um, that is really essential for being successful at all those levels. Well, I'd imagine that's something that's incredibly hard to teach because you're rewarding the dog for a behavior and then expecting them not to repeat it. It's, it's actually not that hard to teach. Really? Um, you know, yeah, it's really not. Um, dogs are, are really smart and we have to give them a lot of credit. Each hide has a different scent profile. So they're not only looking for birch anise or clove, but they also can smell, you know, where the hide is placed. They can smell, you know, it's in a tin, how much quake hold is used, the magnet, the Q-tip, everything. So there's, there's a whole scent profile associated. And they realize that once they get rewarded at that, at that hide, that, that hide, yes, it's valuable, but the next hide is even more valuable. So we teach them to actually go to the next hide as being something even more valuable. And then they realize, they start to realize through training that, that a previous hide is no longer valuable. Um, so it's really just working with the, with a value that you place on, on what's going to be reinforced and what's not going to be reinforced. To kind of round things out, uh, there are three questions I've asked everybody who's been on so far. I wanted to make sure we got to them. Um, so first, what's the dog related accomplishment that you are proudest of? I have to say that it's got to be quitting my job and going full-time does work.

Congratulations. That just happened, right? It is. I'm, I'm completely free of corporate. I just love the sport so much that, that now it's my, um, my complete, you know, this is, this is what I do for a living. I train dogs and set detection that I have to say is my biggest, biggest dog related accomplishment. Um, because I just finally, you know, figured, you know, Hey, I have one life to live. I could either be, you know, semi-miserable in my day-to-day job, or I can really embrace my passion and, and work on something that, that I love where, you know, I know I'm working like 24 seven at things, but, but I love it. And, you know, and it's, it's really, um, to me, that's a really big accomplishment because it also means that I can share this passion with other people. And I can share this passion with my dogs. So what does that look like? Obviously you're teaching through FDSA. Um, I know that you're doing some seminar work. Are you teaching locally as well? I do. I do. I have about a dozen, um, live in-person classes. Um, I teach seminars. I do webinars. I do, I write a blog, you know, I do the podcast, you know, I, um, I have to say that, you know, the bulk of what I do is, is, um, is teaching with, with FDSA, but, um, but this has just kind of become all encompassing and it's really what I, what I do basically day in and day out and I absolutely love it. So for those who may be local to you, where are you based? New Jersey. I'm in Northwest New Jersey. Okay. And then for those who are not close to you, what's the best place to go to find your webinars and your blog posts and all that stuff as they come up? So I have a website. Um, it is www.sensibilities and that's with an S S C E N T S abilities and w.com. Um, I also list all my online classes there through, uh, through FNZ Dog Sports Academy. Those are, those are listed there. Um, my webinars are listed and my seminars, my seminar schedule is listed as well. Um, there's also, I write a blog. Um, the blog is pretty informative and, um, and seems to be well read and, and that's on my website as well. So I definitely recommend that or just contact me. I'm, I'm on Facebook. You know, I love chat, chatting with people. So, you know, go ahead and, you know, reach out to me and, and I can point you in the right direction. So the, uh, next question here is usually my favorite of the whole interview, which is what's the best piece of training advice that you've ever heard? I have to say the most impactful part, um, is, is actually, I have to credit Denise with this. It's training the dog in front of you.

Um, it is so easy to take a, take a dog and try to apply a recipe to it and try to train each dog the same way. Um, but that's, that's just not going to work. Um, you know, even when I look at my own dogs, each, each one of my own dogs is, is such an individual, you know, Judd's kind of a rock star, but he has a little bit of a fragile past. Um, Joey had some motivation issues. I had to really work through, um, some really, you know, really big motivation issues with him. Um, why comes to me with, with a whole history, you know, whole baggage behind him. And he had to really learn how to be confident. So in order to set out, um, you know, the way I was going to train each dog, I had to understand what, what that dog, um, came to the table with and what kind of, what kind of, um, history the dog has. So having that, you know, understand where, you know, the dog that, that you're working with, um, as a starting point can really help you figure out what is the path forward. So I think that that's probably the best piece of training advice I've ever had. Mm-hmm. And our last question, who is someone else in the dog world that you look up to? There are many, many, many people. Um, I have to say from a detection side of it, I really look up to Randy Hare. He is a, um, he's a, um, a professional detection trainer and, um, I have his DVDs. I watch his DVDs. I've learned a ton from him. You know, at some point I would love to be able to work with him in person. Um, you know, just learning a lot from, from him. I look up to him. Um, that's for, on the detection side, on the, um, the other sports, I have to say every single instructor at Fenzie Dog Sports Academy, I look up to because I started out as a student. You know, I, I didn't start out as an instructor. So I've learned so much from each and every, every one of the instructors, um, and all of that information, all of that knowledge, I've been able to transfer and translate a lot of that into how I teach those work. Um, so I, I just find there's so many more, so many people that I really can't identify just one person, um, that, you know, people that I look up to. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Stacey. I really appreciate it. Well, thank you for having me. Absolutely. Uh, it was great to dig a little bit into nose work. Um, and hopefully we'll do some more nose work focused stuff in the future. So, and for our listeners, thanks for tuning in. We'll be back in two weeks with Julie Daniels, one of the foremost names in dog agility in the U S she was one of the early champions of the sport and helped many clubs throughout

the country, get up and running. If you haven't already subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang and transcription written by CLK transcription services. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Music Music Music