E392: 알렉스 우드로프, 줄리 사이몬스, 카일라 데버, 스테이시 바넷(Aleks Woodroffe, Julie Symons, Kayla Dever, and Stacy Barnett) - 노 더 노즈(Know the Nose) 2

my dog going into a trial and uh my topic is tips for training and trialing a sensitive dog uh so it's been fun going through that material i mean there's a lot of information um that can you know can be reviewed in that um but i'm really happy with um you know how it came out so awesome hey hi uh i'm keely deaver uh i'm the owner of every dog nose work uh in rochester michigan the metro detroit area uh i'm a nacsw uh certifying official and uh trial host for nacsw um in michigan um teach nose work classes in the detroit area uh when i'm not doing nose work uh i'm a nurse by trade uh doing oncology um and uh primarily uh do nacsw uh with my dogs i have three uh elite champions uh two labs and uh shelty um and uh um competing at summit and elite with them uh currently um but uh have done uh akc cpe ukc uh to high levels um because that was before when i initially started that was what was around in michigan uh before i started hosting um in that area um the topic i'm gonna be doing is uh sniffing about town so uh by you know how do you find locations to train at uh how do you be a good uh human when you're at those places and a good representative of the sport how do you set your dog up for success whenever you're training um at novel locations um and that's and that's new to you um why do it you know what's the benefit to uh all teams whether you're going to compete or just doing nose work for fun and uh looking for the benefits uh it has for uh all dogs uh so yeah that's a super fun topic i love it's a it's a topic i'm passionate about i love going and finding new places to train my dogs and um i think it's one of the most fun aspects of the sport that we can do it anywhere and it's always different and it's not you know you don't need a obedience ring and you know you can really train all over um so i'm excited to talk about it i think it's a uh fun one for kind of teams at any level so yeah it'll be good awesome stacy uh stacy barnett and um i have uh sensibilities nose work and i've been uh faculty for fenzy dog sports academy since 2015 um wow that's like wow that i'm sorry i just did the math in my head that's just really kind of funny anyway um i compete in nacsw um i've competed now um at the summit level with four different dogs and actually just earned my 12th title which is really exciting um absolutely i'm really really excited absolutely love the competing part of it i also um have i also do search and rescue with one of my dogs um and recently certified her in wilderness area search um so i do that and uh basically my conference topic is going to be on the virtual

walkthrough because there's an amazing resource that is used more for you know taking a look at your search areas the next day but if you look back at it historically it can help to inform your training in really amazing ways so um my conference topic will be getting into how do we how do we do that and how can we leverage that for um for our training plans going forward awesome um all right so uh we've got quite a group here um have you guys seen any impact you know either on your dog's search performance or on your training you know from doing different venues or multiple venues kind of switching from one to the other um and if folks have multiple venue options locally are there any benefits to doing either more venues or kind of picking one to go all the way in julie you want to start us off yeah i personally haven't had an impact um training in multiple venues i think that's partly because i started in nacsw and i think going from ms csw to the other organizations is an easier um you know transfer of the skills i tend to train with a lot of odor i mean i obviously train with lower amounts of odor but i do a lot of odor bomb training and and stuff so akc uses a lot of odor there's a lot of people um who go to that to that um organization have a hard time with you know multiple highs with a high amount of odor you can have more fringing and just be overwhelmed with odor um i do uh i do find though people who maybe start with akc um there's a kind of a bigger jump into nacsw with the with the larger um search areas um i think that that would be you know probably the biggest challenge um and also that you kind of have to be a little bit more accurate um uh to you know to pass the lower levels whereas with akc it's it's it's nice that they're different right because akc um has it you know you get the three legs um to title and in nacsw you have to um pretty much be be perfect or or a few errors to to to get a title in the early levels um i actually think it's great to have more options because i think uh you get really rusty uh do you remember stacy when we would trial like two times a year because that's all the trials that there were you know in our area and you just every time you went to trial you were like feeling like you were trialing for the first time and you just kind of made all those like mistakes again and so when i know when i started trialing more i was doing better you're just able to to to get more experience that because it's such a new sport that there isn't really

anywhere else to go except for training on your own to kind of get that experience and uh so whenever i have somebody say oh i got into a trial this weekend and next weekend is that too much i'm like no because you're going to be like in the zone you're going to be like totally in that trial zone and so i think that having some of the other venues um is great uh just to kind of you know test out some things you might want to try just you know kind of uh just just keep your your team well oiled and everything not that i think you should try all the time as training is is where it's at to be prepared for that but i think it's a good thing that there's there's more options out there yeah um yeah i mean i think i i know i started in uh cpe and ukc were what were in michigan at the time whenever i started um a few years ago uh there had been any csw prior but those uh hosts had had kind of fizzled out um or relocated and so um you know at the time that was what was there um and so you know it was still good i got experience and i had a really uh generous dog um as far as what i could get away with um which was nice it was great to learn with him um i think one of the things you just have to be thoughtful of i think in any venue but it's a little bit more uh uh nacsw definitely does a really exceptional job of preparing their certifying officials and the the trial environment is very uh carefully cultivated um and i think uh in a way that some of the other venues are are not um it's not bad it just you just need to be aware of it and definitely um you know if i always recommend if people can go volunteer at a trial before you run in one you're gonna get an idea of what's happening you can see what type of setups are happening you can see the the way that things are handled and you just it just gives you a little bit more information um i think uh one of the things that i experienced early on was doing a lot of uh trials at training buildings and i felt like my dog was alerting on things that they were i was being told there wasn't a hide but they would find a hide later or you know very hard alerts and so i think as a novice handler that was a little disconcerting at first because i felt like oh my gosh my dog who's really solid is like what's he doing and um and that now i just know that like okay odor's kind of all over and my dog wasn't wrong and just give them a meatball and move on uh you know but i think it's uh it's one of those things just kind of be aware of um definitely for me i i i very much love nacsw uh for a lot of reasons but um i think

for for a lot of folks it's it's a nice option to have um have other options you know for uh some dogs the area coverage and and for some teams the area coverage in nacsw is is a barrier um but like julie said there's definitely some advantage to and i think how all of us kind of train is really looking at really solid foundations that will carry you across venues um and so laying like really focusing on the foundations that um that is going to set you up for success at nacsw is going to set you up for success in any of the venues um so yeah that's there's a lot to talk about there but i'll stop it enough stacy yeah you know and i i think these are all really really good points and i'm hoping i can add to them but um you know i kind of i don't although i really only trial in nacsw at this point um mostly because of time but um i don't generally train for an organization i just train for good searching and it then i just choose where i'm going to trial there there are definitely differences if you were to take a look at akc and nacsw that go really beyond even the amount of odor but it's a um a result of the amount of odor so if we look at kind of the smaller search areas with akc and the amount of odor that's used and the fact that as you start to go up the levels they use more and more hides what you end up with are very few areas in the search area that are actually devoid of odor so i think it's actually really helpful for teams to also think about kind of more the nacsw style of searching where there may be larger areas of the search area where there may not be any odor because i think from a training perspective if you can kind of um prepare yourself for that where your dog is working both in and out of odor i think what it does is it helps to educate the handler's eye a little bit more because one of the best ways to really learn how to read your dog is learn how to read your dog when they're not in odor and if they're always in odor then you're always only seeing one half of the story so if you can um train quite a bit where the dog is also is not necessarily in odor the whole time i think what you're going to see is a bigger story about what your dog is trying to tell you about the hide behavior and the odor behavior and ultimately it's going to make you more effective as a handler so you know i really encourage people not to necessarily train for the organization you know but also just think about what makes a really solid searching dog um and i i really um encourage people to train in um situations where they're just not that where the dog's not just

inundated with odor so alex oh um different venues seem to be like what i do all the time i'm jumping back and forth between akc and nacsw i think it's because i judge a lot and i compete a lot in nacsw so i'm always going back and forth um kayla mentioned this but working multiple venues is really about your expectations and keeping an open mind that each venue has their own rules and way that the game is played um because you can't go into akc and want it to be nacsw nacsw has its really cool moments and a really cool environment for what it is and same with akc akc works a very different kind of game in a different kind of style uh because akc is so very available for the majority of the country that's often where people get started and they get the bug so it's kind of nice to have that so available and it almost becomes the playing kind of venue and i think all the other organizations tried but at the same time uh they just didn't have the reach that akc does and so as a result akc clubs are doing scent work to build some money which gives everybody else an opportunity to get into the sport and playing um by trialing and being able to do that you do get those chops those back to back to back to back weekends which can be really good for the dogs to keep working odor especially when you're not being tested and you're kind of in an environment where you don't have a lot of blind searches or trainers that can help you out um so they can almost become good for that but at the same time they do create habits and you get into these little habits that might be just for that venue and then you forget that the other venue has different kinds of habits that you need uh so then it's a little bit of a mental push for that so it's it's fun i like having multiple venues for that purpose uh but it's maintaining that expectations for what you're going into especially because like for example a lot of people here are in acsw and you know what to expect it's very um controlled type of an environment and setup versus akc is club up so every akc event can be very different so if you didn't like your experience with one club maybe you want to go to a different club it's a different style of the game and how you wade where you search where you're creating all of those kinds of things can be different so uh keeping an open mind for those kinds of things awesome um since you're all experienced trainers and competitors i thought it might be fun to uh kind of ask you guys a little bit about what you wish you maybe knew when you first started

out in the sport any missteps mistakes anything you wish you'd done differently or just kind of known from the start uh kayla um i think your first dog you know obviously we we all were blessed with a first dog most of our first dogs were very uh kind to us um as learners um and and that's a wonderful a wonderful thing about uh those those first dogs and no matter how far you did or did not get with them they they're they're special for a lot of those reasons but um i think really for me the thing that like i'll never forget taking my first fdsa class with stacy and it was uh her foundations class that she's running right now actually but it it was you know prior to that i was in a local class with with a very talented dog who um we just were having a good time um and i was like you know well i i i retired him from our our primary sport um fly ball before then and and um covet happened and i found uh fdsa and and uh took this class and my mind was like i just didn't know all there was to know i think it's easy to get like overwhelmed by a lot of it but if you can i think the the biggest thing is like find good instruction don't you know and um find good instruction and and it can be uh there's there's so many voices in the sport it can be almost overwhelming to like you know it's like this person says this and this person says that and you're like especially when you're new and you first show up to a trial and this judge told me this and this person told me that and you're trying you're doing you're just trying to to do the best you can i think there's a lot to be said for like kind of listening but finding one instruction like finding an instructor who you um enjoy working with and who can you can and get you know specific feedback to you and your team um because it can be difficult to to kind of tone out all of the cacophony of advice and um you know there's so many little moments where yeah that judge their advice was not bad but they're seeing this little tiny moment um you know and not even across venues like you know a judge will write something on your um scorecard in any csw and they saw one search you know that's not your entire journey or your entire history so i think i think if there's like one thing that i would tell people is like find good instruction whether it's online or in person find someone you trust and and do you know listen to one voice if you can take in other things you know learn from from as many voices as you can but definitely there is a lot to be said for having an instructor who is helping you

craft your team and develop as a and who knows you and your dog um i think i think there's a lot to be said for that somebody who can see the bigger picture and knows you and knows and has seen your dog and you through through your journey um i think there's a lot to be said for that awesome stacy well first of all i love brennan like yeah what a sweetheart what a sweetheart that's kayla's kayla's for the dog she was referring to and um i also had a dog like that um his name was judd and when i start to think about what i wish i knew back then you know it really is amazing every time we start a new dog how much more we learn and i think it's important to make sure that we kind of give ourselves a little grace when we look backwards and we see some of the mistakes that we've may have may have made in the past and realize that every dog that we work is going to teach us something different um if i look at my training now compared to when i started with my first dog i i would have to say i'm a lot more clear and my criteria is a lot more clear um i have a very clear communication system with my dogs um and i think that's especially important considering the dogs i'm working right now are a lot more high octane than um than the dog you know than judd was originally but i also look at like for instance oh my gosh i'm thinking back to oh geez he was a box smasher on white or tea boxes to the day he died and it was just one of these things where i just made mistakes with my criteria in the very beginning and it wasn't as big of an issue back then i mean it was it was kind of you know early days and um now if i saw that if it i would be like no no we have to stop that right and you know and i went through a whole retraining process with powder um and now she actually she has amazing containers now and it was a matter of just really learning how to communicate to her in a way that was a lot more clear and really driving home um how important things like clear markers and um and clear communication is and really making sure that she understands the difference between my my voice my praise and my movement so all of those things i i think for me that's one of the things that um it made a huge difference in in my training now as opposed to when i started alex um i think i've got two big things that i i keep thinking about when i go back to when i started uh the first one is that it's better to assume my dog is working than assuming they're not working um because when i started i would always think my dog's distracted or just doing whatever and they

were working the whole time and so believing them a little bit more and having that piece of it in my mind and so then i was able to reward enthusiasm um which kept that joy for the game uh versus kind of nagging the dog uh when i got tana so she's my third dog in the sport um my big goal with her was i'm not going to nag this dog i wrote it down everywhere i'm not going to nag my dog uh and it definitely helped we developed a way better relationship and the joy of the game as well as all the other games we played um kind of maintained the other piece of it is the enthusiasm tana being very enthusiastic for the game uh i ended up setting a lot of high hides kind of near the beginning because they were fun and she solved them great but what happened is she started associating a lot of high odor meaning it's just holding above her head with a high hide and then it looks like a high hide and i got uh i wouldn't call it i don't see many high hides here out in arizona we don't set very many of them because often they go poof and they disappear um but i wasn't ever going to call any of them but she still thinks about them so i changed my whole tactic and now with george i train every high hide as sourceable he can put his nose on every single high hide he works and at the last trial he went to he solved i think it was eight or ten feet high on a balcony he's fine he solved it he was perfect right underneath it no time whatsoever because he always had the belief he could put his nose on source and he never actually had that idea so that was my biggest like aha like we're never training high hides i was just like suspended in the air um that's going to be something very well thought out because i just don't want to distrust my dog i want a high to be a high awesome julie um yeah so talking about our first nose work dog so i just did lose savvy who i did start at nose work um so over 10 years ago and as you know she was just like a well-worn pair of jeans right like she was just my dog that had done a lot of other um success in other sports so she was a fun dog to learn with and she did make it really easy although she definitely isn't wasn't my best nose dog right you know i think our newer dogs we learn more and we do better um this is a great question melissa um so what i think i wish i knew and i want to also answer what i wish my students would would know now um but is what i wish i knew how capable our dogs were they can find multiple hides they can find close hides they can um understand hides that they found i think a lot of our training

was you know feeding uh repaying hides because oh my god we have to pay odor we can't not pay odor and that could spiral out of control so of course what i you know i know now i'm not going i don't pay hides um again i start that from day one i'm very clear on that criteria um but just you know knowing that they're so good at the sport and and of course dogs will vary with with their you know ability olfactory ability um but we don't give them enough credit to what they're able to do and i think we kind of tend to fix problems with handling and and that kind of thing um not understanding if they're working you know like alex said so that was that's the one thing and i do remember with savvy i think i worked on single hides for over a year i just got advice that you shouldn't have them have to pick between different you know odor you know plumes and and and and it was really hard for her to move on to multiple hides so one thing i do a lot differently now is i i train advanced skills early they're working blanks they're working um close hides they're working multiple hides and things like that so that's definitely a change i've made and um or wish i knew um but it's kind of okay that we didn't know that right because i think like like what kayla said is there's so much information um some people think it's it's an easy sport but there's a lot to it and i don't think we can possibly know everything so we have to kind of go through that process so i wish that my students would trust the process because they want to either jump ahead um they don't um kind of like want to listen or believe what you're saying is from our experience and why it it you know will make a difference and you can't like like you have to go through the the time like you have the time has to go by for your dog to just gain that experience you can't rush the experience and the time you have to let that time go through you know i have a one of my students reminds me i don't even remember saying this that i should like a two-year-old dog and i said a two-year-old dog is young in the sport don't expect it to you know be a master at it so so that would be one thing i'd i'd um suggest something that kayla said earlier about um input from multiple instructors i actually in my handling class right now at fenzy i actually wrote a lecture on that because it's something that i hear about and and i feel i feel bad for both the other instructor and being me on the receiving end because it's very difficult when you get multiple inputs so i i just wrote a lecture about you have

to respect your instructor if you're paying them for their information you have to be open and listen um and it's hard though and i mean i think you have to kind of pick pick a few people to listen to because if you're always going all over the place you are going to get yourself confused and then and then what i always tell people is you have to just um take what makes sense to you you know that's just the bottom line just um do your best understanding what people are saying and do what makes sense for you and for your dog so there's you know the saying of like dr phil you know how's that working for you like yeah yeah i mean i've had people come to me and say well i'm doing this now and i said well well why did that person say that and they had no idea why and they had nothing was broken and i'm like okay you know but i i was trying to understand this one person didn't know why and then there was somebody else that i was able to talk to later and i understood why they were saying that and at least it's still not what i would do but i could understand the logic of it so you know and i i understand that i'll go to a seminar and you're so overwhelmed you don't think to ask the why and then you walk away and you're like oh i don't really know why you know so it's it's it's hard communication is hard and listening is hard and processing is hard so yeah yeah yeah i feel like that's especially true at dog sports seminars where you're trying to both manage your dog and listen to the instructor and change your behavior and learn new things and and and and and and and right oh yeah like being a student putting myself in other you know um like new new um sports or whatever and and to be a student again is is good to know what it like again to not know what you're doing yeah it also like i think it challenges us too as instructors like when i hear sort of like it's almost like the telephone game like what what gets said and how it gets interpreted and it's like you know you'll hear like something and you're like well this is what you told me to do and i'm like oh that's how that was interpreted okay that's not what i said or what i meant i have to i have to be clearer you know and it challenges you to to be a to be clear with your with your explanations yeah yeah uh so i want to talk about strategy for just a second so uh when it comes to training and trialing i'm curious how much does your handling strategy depend on the dog kind of the dog that you're working or the dog in front of you um kind of in that moment and how much does it depend on the location or the environment

kind of what you're seeing around you and stacy i'm sure you're thrilled that you get to go first for this one uh the answer is just yes you're saying how much is and how much you know this or that and the answer is just yes um it's always for me a combination of the dog in front of me and the search parameters and because really kind of what i look at is first i handle the dog then i handle the search so i kind of need to know not only the dog i have in front of me in terms of like is it powder is it brava is a prize is it why right but it's also that dog in that day because so for instance when i did the summit trial in georgia with powder she was on the very very high edge of her arousal spectrum that i want to work her in like on the very high edge and i knew for instance if she went off leash it would be terrifying so she was on leash the whole time now granted if she had been if it had been a couple weeks before when her arousal was just a little bit lower i would have taken her off leash so how i handle is really so not only specific for that dog but it's also that dog on that day and even that dog on that day in that search and then i take a look at the search itself and perhaps you know like especially at the at the summit level where she's competing i was we also do elite premier which is a lot of fun by the way these new nacsw levels are a blast um you know we have either searches where you have unknown number of hides we have a range or we have a known number so for instance based off of those parameters if it's either a known number or a range i'm going to do what i call what's called like a hasty that's kind of what we use um it's terminology that we use in search and rescue which is basically mean meaning rapidly move through the search area kind of a first pass so if we kind of think about it that way like i might hasty my way through the search area um because of the parameters but also because i know that she works really well that way so that would be kind of powder but then if i'm looking at another one of my dogs i may work it slightly differently so the answer to your question is really from my perspective is just yes right i kind of start with what dog do i have you know in front of me what what dog do i have on that day what dog do i have in that search area and then what search parameters do i have and then i may even flex once i'm in that search and i may decide you know what i need you to kind of clean up anything you know that might be hanging out there so here we go off leash or whatever um if we have

that opportunity so some of that is a little bit moment to moment but you know that's generally how i do it anyway alex um i'm with stacy on that one is it really depends on the dog and the search and it's the combo of the two um because each search is really designed to test something else sometimes you get to a trial and they're all kind of testing the same kind of thing um but often each search area especially when we're talking like akc they'll talk about that venue it's all different judges typically you have a totally different flavor for each search um and so as a result each search is testing something a little bit different and that's going to push you a little bit differently for straight strategy um i my mind right now goes to george my young guy because he's he's my project and he's a lot of work um and so strategically for him i'm going to choose to run things very differently based on his emotions and based on what's in front of me if it's containers in front of me it's still stressful for me but um often i'm doing a little bit less leash control less control on the leash itself because if i put too much tension he's going to actually hit a container because his feet just fall because of the tension versus if it was an area search i would be letting the line out a little bit more but also a little more tension in the line and keeping connection the whole time because it helps him stay in the moment um so each search is going to be so different and then looking at my older girl she's eight and a half and it feels like old shoe we go out there it feels so good every time we do it um and it might be things like off leash at the beginning and then putting her back on once we want to settle in and find some harder problems um and that's kind of worn and easy kind of strategy that we always do every trial and so it feels good julia well you guys have a good answer so yeah i mean absolutely right you know and i uh um i have more methodical dogs than a couple of these ladies here um so i you know don't have those arousal spikes but i do have a recent more recent situation with moxie who developed sound sensitivity and um unfortunately it's not really um um improved the point where i where she's working back out where she was originally but i've had to handle her differently because of the sound sensitivities um you know playing music and always keeping her on leash and that that was i love running her off leash you know because she has such a you know moderate or uh you know i guess arousal and um so she was

never going to be crazy out of control or anything but she was felt so much better on leash so the on leash was was it was a great way to run her um she was a bit more efficient um i also might make changes you know of course the everybody said that the parameters that you have the time the number of hides definitely make make a difference um but you got to take in to you know weather you know if it's hot um you know you there's some ways you may um you don't want your dog to over over you know heat um or get too tired and so you might you know i like that term hasty i've been calling it kind of a trajectory like i kind of like i'm gonna like have a truck trajectory that i'm gonna take my dog through and get them somewhere um so i think that that's um strategic you know based on um weather conditions or how your dog is doing um yeah and you know you know you guys will all agree with us isn't this one of the number one questions you get from your students and it's very hard to answer because it's so situational and it's not even just situational if you can look at the walkthrough you don't know the parameters yet until you get there and then like you said how your dog is that day um but i would say you know besides maybe the arousal of or the weather we probably have a general you know understanding of how our dog is gonna gonna work and run so hopefully we don't have we're not doing huge you know swings of strategy um but it is uh often just in the moment too right you can have all these plans um before you start but then you have to just be so present in the moment when you're searching and you have to just you know hold it together and make all those decisions um in that moment whether you stay on leash put off leash whether you you know need to cover another area or just you know let your dog continue to um to work it out um that's what's really hard to you know to uh describe and to bottle up um and it's it's practice and uh it's it's tough yeah it's tough i i actually think um i think if we just if handlers maintain good mechanics you know stacy mentioned the communication and um you know reinforcement strategies if you keep a lot of that thing the same then that's something you don't have to worry about and change right and you know the good leash skills and the reinforcement strategies and uh start routines and things like that are going to go a long way of being very similar and then you only have some of the big hitters that you might have to strategically decide what to do differently um but yeah i also

liked alex how you said it is so true each search is testing something else and we don't always know what it's testing until it's done right i mean a lot of times we won't know what our we could have done a different strategy if i knew where all the eyes are you know obviously where the eyes were you would have a different strategy but um yeah so yeah it's a good question and uh i think it really is as we're all agreeing um it's it's that day that search yeah i think like uh i remember when i was doing my elite journey with brennan and um you know what i realized is that whatever whenever you think you've got it figured out you're gonna have a search that takes you back to the drawing board and makes you reevaluate uh your hand your strategies uh in moment to moment with it with each individual dog i think really the biggest thing and i think there's just no substitution for it like you talked about like uh you know that well a couple of you mentioned you know that's my dog like well-worn pair of shoes or well-worn pair of jeans and what makes them that is miles on the team like it's just miles on the team it's uh i mean how many hundreds of searches have you done with that dog where you are that in tune and and able to make those decisions that are not even a sometimes not even a conscious thought they're feeling um i don't it's how it like it's a it's just a you're you're in a free fluid state with with that dog and you're not even nervous you're not even that nervous either no it's just uh it's it's but that's the thing it's it's miles on the team and there's no shortcut for that there's nothing that is pretty about it there's nothing that like there's no amount of money you can pay or seminars you can take or people you can teach or you know people who can take your dog and train it for you or any of that like it's really it's miles on the team and i think that's the like the the that's what makes you that's how you learn you know whenever your student asks you oh should i've gone on or off leash well what what does your experience tell you like what does your in training and in trialing and you know looking for those opportunities like early on you know some of it's going to be dictated you know like early in the early days like right a lot of us start foundations off leash independent building and driving and so for a lot of folks that's kind of their comfort zone initially so they'll take their dog off every chance they get because that feels like oh i can't get in their way and then they'll just you know and early on whenever there's

one hide out there that might be the right strategy right um and then as the game evolves as you move up levels and the game changes to now you're not just finding hides you're clearing areas and you're um you know the the time restrictions get tighter and your communication and the odor signatures are different and more complex and everything it all it all evolves and there's just it's miles on the team it's just it's just part of that that journey and learning i think too you know looking for those opportunities whenever you're a newer handler to feel comfortable learning and experimenting like i i know my first nw3 attempt i did with my younger lab davy um you know every just because you've titled with other dogs does not mean that you are new like this is a whole new dog this is a whole new team you're learning this is this is that very brand new pair of shoes that is not worn in yet and you are still learning and i remember i you know even though i was at working well into the elite level with the previous dog i had you know i um was nervous and i got a no in containers and then went out and just totally mishandled vehicles so right like that first two searches no mistyed you know and and it's like okay well that sucks i'm in maryland i'm from michigan i drove eight hours from here but you know what was wonderful that was his first nw3 so that means i'm not titling that day but that means now guess what there's two interiors that are up that are coming up that i don't really have any stake in this game now i can just go let's experiment let's learn let's see what i got and you know i was able that was a great opportunity for me to be able to take him off leash and he did one he worked really well um and so that was you know a way to you know kind of make a a win out of what was felt kind of like hmm um of a trial day so you know looking for those opportunities to learn about your team um in those like less you know the stakes are not as high in those moments um but really there's no shortcuts for the time yeah and something just to add to that is you know i i know it's it's heartbreaking when you're not doing well and i know i've known people who have left and i'm like you could have gotten so much experience i remember i'm on a drax nose or three he got like two nose in his first search the first search out i got two nose and the rest of the day i decided that i was gonna like really you know sharpen up what i wanted to work and like do the opposite of what i ever did and i had the i had a clean i had a clean i was clean the

rest of the day and it felt so good and i and that experience is what made my next trial you know better i had i had a similar experience with judd and nw3 and i had like interiors this is back when we had to do three interiors in a row and interiors were always this thing that i was like terrified of because we had these three searches in a row and everything and i had never really done that well in interiors and i had gone to an nw3 and i had gotten a no in containers and a no in an exterior and at that you had to be perfect anyway so i'm like you know the day's over so i just went in like let's just have fun in interiors and it was the best nw3 interiors i think i've ever done i had ever done to that point with him i think i got like i don't know i got my first placement ribbon and in an nw3 interior and everything and i just remember like how freeing that was that really was it was amazing which leads us really well into our next question guys so when a competition search goes sideways um i'd love to talk just a little bit about kind of what are the most likely culprits what causes things to go sideways and then how do you kind of evaluate that after the fact to can to create a new training plan you know to kind of ensure that things go better the next time you're out there uh alex you want to start us off sure when they go sideways so if they're if you're still holding on and things aren't like bad they just feel bad um normally it's because we're taking over and we're getting nervous and we're starting to hold on harder and maybe we're thinking it's got to be a high hide my dog doesn't know high hides i'll go back to it um and so then i start presenting or make things up and guess what that gets you in trouble right letting go watching the dog let the dog tell the story of the search and that often gets you out of some of those problems but what if it goes bad and you get a no and okay we're out any csw out um george has given me a lot of opportunities to experience this because he's just like he likes to push every button have a joy in every search um but i've really taken advantage of any csw's ask for information because it means the rest of the day can be a really fun training experience i've had some of the best trial days asking for information because hey my confidence got shot a little bit or we really struggle on containers i already shot it in exteriors or something we got to know and i think we missed a hide so i'm just gonna ask it for info on containers okay there's two hides okay perfect i know when to call finish we can work we can solve the problem

and i can get better at watching my dog or maybe i need to know where they are um i did a did a leap premiere with him he did feo while i was running tana and it was fantastic because the first search i asked where they were he nailed them i didn't even need to ask he was doing his own job so then as the day progressed i asked for less and less information by the third search i didn't ask anything and i was looking at times and placements and stuff he would have done very very well he would have been placed at that trial so it builds a little bit more confidence and a little bit more joy of the day akc doesn't really give you that option to ask for information but you just have to realize each search is totally separate and you don't have to have a perfect day each piece is separate from each other and so it allows you to say okay my interiors went to crap we were out in the first room but that means i can still go have fun in exteriors or containers does really good for me we're gonna see if we can get first place right so you can start changing how the day goes and maybe the goals shouldn't be tied to placements and things that are out of your control and how other people might do that day making them tied to something that personally that i can manage a little bit um so if the day feels like it's going badly i'm going to say okay my goal today was going to be to watch my dog every subtle little change of direction that's what i'm going to watch today or i'm going to maintain my leash it's never going to hit the ground when a reward that is my one goal for the day and so that makes me improve as a handler and so i feel like i come out of the trial day with a lot more and it feels good even if the day goes sideways julie i would definitely say that over handling um is a cause a culprit um of uh search going sideways and it's it's not only just over handling but then it's putting pressure on the dog to keep working when they're maybe just not able to so when they sense our nerves and then we're like nagging them as alex said earlier um that's when i start seeing dogs have displacement um behaviors and then the people want to figure out how to solve those issues when it's really is about your your you know your mental state your your your overall being as the handler and just um needing to be a little more patient and trusting the dog i think the other culprit is sometimes just teams aren't prepared you know that's probably pretty standard but like you know the novel areas is is what makes i think nose work the hardest part i think it's the most exciting part because i think

you have dogs who start to really to really you know can like crave and get off on those search areas like pulling to new doors and going to new places but um novel areas and dealing with distractions can usually be how a search goes sideways for dogs um either just you know from worry or from just being you know just distracted um by people or noise or whatever um i mean and so if it's training then i'm gonna abort and stop um and trialing you should do the same thing if it's really you know severe but you can also salvage um you could salvage a search by pausing and stopping and this is probably one of the only sports i know we can you can do this is just stop and love on your dog stop and do some tricks give them some treats and i recently we've had some local um teams here do that just that and then they they resumed and the dog had a great day and and like titled and stuff and we forget to just take stop for a moment chuck on our dog and then break them out of whatever is they're worried about and get them moving you know it's getting them moving and and not freezing up and um just supporting them and then and again if people don't know this and nose work there's no rule against that you can whip out a toy you can you can give your dog food anytime um you can restart the search you know it's just going to take up time um so that's uh you know what i think of the culprits and and how i would address those um in a nutshell and then um and you know the goals uh would be to like what alex said is you have your goals can only be what you can control you can't say i'm not going to get any nose you can't say but you can say i won't blurt alert too early you know that would be a good goal i'm gonna i'm gonna have a little bit more i'm gonna breathe i'm gonna take a breath before i call alert um but process goals things that you can you know you can um change like uh leash handling i'm gonna you know make sure i do good leash handling um i've been playing around with these you know my the the three p's that i've been repeating to people is being present being patient and being purposeful so the three p's are kind of my mantra now and if you are those three things um if you can go into a search saying those three things i think you're gonna be able to control those and you're gonna have a pretty good search if you're present and observing um you know somebody else mentioned that about you know learning just to read your dog and being patient um to not overtake and to also be purposeful so if you are going to make some strategic changes you're very purposeful with

that um and those are things that you can control and uh yeah i find i have found teams having a lot of success and maybe that's calming them down or making them more relaxed i'm going in with that and then like we said earlier each search is something new and i think that's a really kind of hard thing to embrace because we are very results oriented and we we really get down when things don't go well but i would just look forward to the next search and um you know and i'll create some new goals and um and just keep practicing yeah yeah i think you know you mentioned just like people being underprepared i think is is very common right i think one of the things that's great about the sport is there's kind of a you can get in at novice levels pretty with not a lot of training and do well fairly quickly um and then people get excited and it's it's fun and you're you get ribbons and then people choose to move up too quickly or they don't really fully realize the skills that are being tested at each level or how much of a skill jump there might be um and that can kind of set you can set you up for for failure before you you've kind of even uh gotten there so i think you know one of the things like i think that a lot of us commonly say but really is like i i tell my students all the time like really i am training for at least the level above the level that i'm currently showing at um ideally even a little bit ahead of even further than that so that whenever i do decide to test my training i know that this training is very fluent and solid because i'm working well past this level that is being tested um and then you know how do you know what's being tested um i think you know really looking at you know like stacy's gonna talk about the walkthroughs like those are great insight into the types of skills that are being tested at icsw uh the rule book spells out a certain amount of it like whenever it says these are the things that might you're gonna see or you could see at this level expect to see them at that level right it will tell you hides up to this height distractions of this type in in containers um you know like it it's you know what types even just like you know you know you're gonna have vehicle searches you know you're gonna have interiors you know you're gonna have exterior so you know getting out to those novel locations knowing having a dog who's very prepared to be fluent in new locations um that they've never been before so those are all like i think like the meat and potatoes of stuff that you can do to set yourself up for success is really train

past the level that you're gonna test and know what you're being tested on um it sounds silly but there's definitely a lot of people who you know knowingly or not you know show up and don't quite realize what was in the rule book or what could be uh tested on that day so i think that's you know one of the big the big things um and definitely the mental management side of it is like huge especially as you move up the levels it becomes even more and more impactful you know when you're new you're nervous and all of that is normal and i think like i said before that's that's miles on the team and for me the thing that made me work through trial nerves was just exposure therapy was really just the more i trialed the more i was i got used to functioning in that state and the more i got desensitized to it and the more it became like this is just how it is and now i don't even i mean at the last summit i did i don't even know that i could tell you i felt very nervous at all um which is exciting but that's just exposure um you know but the the um mental management side of it being able to run your race you know the that's one of the i think the great things about nose work is that yes there are levels that you're i mean you're sort of being you're competing with other people but really you're competing with yourself and your team and doing the best you can on that day anyone else you know you can't you have no control over what anyone else is doing and so you know it can be very intimidating as you move up levels and you know you show up to a summit and there's very high level competitors there and you know these are really great teams and it can be very easy to say like you know oh there's no way that we're you know doing but like that was terrible oh my gosh you know oh i only found two of the known five hides and this is the world is ending and this is terrible and you know there's all these amazing people and then you know but the reality is they're all having the same thoughts as you are all of us are in the same boat and and you you know they may not have that like in order for you to have your best day you have to have your day you can't you have no control over anyone else so i think for me that was like one of the most uh one of the things that i really really try to focus on anytime i like find myself feeling that is like snap out of it it is just you and your dog every time you step to that line it is just you and your dog there is no one else in the room no one else matters and no one else has control over that moment and so they just have to

kind of be able to take those little it's a lot of mental compartment compartmentalization of like here's this moment this is the i literally imagine like taking boxes out off of a shelf and it's like okay this search um and like when i'm doing like summoner elite i quite literally will okay i get out of that search and maybe i give myself three minutes to think about it whatever it was i'm gonna think about it and then that time is done and i will envision wrapping it back up and putting it up on a shelf and then i take down a new box and i will go watch my walkthrough for that search like okay next search new box next search what's happening next and um so those like little like mental tricks are definitely but really it's about like julie said it's about being present and in the moment and uh running your race safety yeah i think when things go sideways it's usually one of two things it's either skill related or it's kind of handler like headspace right so it's one of the other and you know if it's skill related okay well that's usually preparation and a lot of times i find that if it's a skill it's really interesting um if you look at what the skill is a lot of times you'll see people kind of avoid that skill so it's kind of like like so for instance like containers like you know people are a lot of people are afraid of containers so they'll avoid containers and they don't want to practice containers and they just want to kind of like grin and bear it and get through it in a trial and i guess my um advice for that is take the bull by the horns like you have to sometimes just decide to like something um i know um back when i uh authored my container class it was one of these things where i actually used to hate containers i'm just using this as an example right and i just decided one day i'm gonna love containers i'm just gonna decide to love containers and it was a decision point and then i ended up just really breaking that skill down into a lot of different pieces and it turned out i did decide to love them and i actually do really enjoy them now but it's one of those things where if you have a skill gap you have to make the effort to close the gap so if you're always going to kind of go and cross your fingers and just kind of hope for the best it's not going to get better so from a skill gap you've if you've got the skill gap you either choose to close it or you choose to ignore it if you choose to ignore it you're probably going to suffer for it you know later on um from a handler heads like uh that your headspace that's something entirely different we were talking

you know kayla was talking about mental management quite a bit that's a huge piece of it and the higher up you get in the levels the more and more this starts to play out um handler arousal is real it is a real thing it's one of these things where we i mean we're always thinking about the arousal for our dogs but when we realize that when we come out of a search and we can't remember maybe where the hides were or maybe we don't remember them in the moment and we're like did we call that did we not call that that's all handler arousal so we have to find a way to quiet our minds and take our time and actually be a little bit more patient when we're searching so that we can really observe the area um things like overthinking um overthinking is a really big um culprit of making mistakes it's when we all of a sudden we get in our heads so this is when if we if you know people talk about taking over over for the dog well it's that's when we're overthinking and we get into our heads that's when we're at risk of doing that so we need to kind of think about how do we um how do we get out of our heads a little bit and that i think is one of the hardest things to do as you go up the levels so that's a little bit of a harder thing from like a training plan to try to fix i think that really does come down to a little bit from a mileage perspective learning how you know yeah you know breathing all that kind of good stuff like that's really important um smiling is huge like all those things but you you can't really replace the time and experience and i think that's a really big piece of just being able to kind of go and be able to do the compartmentalization that kayla's talking about you know um we had a search at the last summit where you know there's always like a twist one one of one of the searches every trial is always a twist and it you you know if you've done enough enough summits that you're you probably can't title without getting the bonus so getting to the line and knowing that you might have a title writing on that search there's a lot of pressure there and i think it's one of these things like that's an example of needing to be able to compartmentalize so that you're not putting that extra pressure on yourself when you're trying to run a search like that because it's really the only way to get through it so i think it's one of those things that the skills that kind of develops a little bit as you go through the levels the skills honestly like technical skills that's the easy stuff

you know closing that we have to choose to close those but from the the handler headspace and all that that just takes time all right so you guys mentioned gold a couple of times in there and i want to kind of stop and go back to that a little bit and talk about that for a minute so how do you kind of set goals for yourself when it comes to nose work are you uh you know thinking about um skills are you thinking about competition stuff are you think you know what are you thinking about when you're thinking about goals and what tips do you have for listeners and how they should choose what they want to accomplish either in a given search or in a trial or with a particular dog and how are you looking at that what advice are you giving um what do you wish students were thinking about all of that julie um yeah i did mention a little bit about just some of the goals for you know the search right just to be present and purposeful and and patient and things like that um you know if you're talking about you know training i you know i think it's you know learning and um learning about your dog and learning about you know how odor works and um just being open to how uh how dogs um solve things um they don't you know they don't see it in the way that we we see things um so i just think our goals have to be you know within each sport you're learning the skills and then you're learning your dog and you know how they how they work with that um i like what alex said earlier was you know you let the dog tell you the story of of the search area you know um but um i don't know if i have anything else to add there um and i just i just think it's it's gotta not be i i want to find all the hives i guess i think that's a good goal um you know we all haven't talked about that one yet is that we all want to find we all want to find all the hides and we always think there's more hides and i i think we have to you know get rid of you know confirmation bias and not think what a judge or a co might set um even though you can have some you know you can you know look at the debriefs and i think that's that that's good to know in the back of your head but we can sometimes make assumptions um but i would just have to say to let go of finding all the hides and just enjoying being at the end of the leash and i always tell people that you have the best seat in the house at the end of the leash with your dog and just you you want to use those searches as as as learning because our dog is our best student on how odor works and that's why as judges those of us who judge

i think all of us um do or uh or teach teach or judge teacher judge or host because you're going to see a lot when you're hosting um you learn so much from just watching this uh many dogs work like a like a search area and um so yeah so that's what i had additional for that um yeah so i think i think there's kind of two parts to this right like there's like your goals like in the moment in a search training goals or like you know what's what are um what are your goals i think all of us uh would agree like for i think it's good and functional to have like solid goals as far or tangible goals as far as you know i would like to get this title or i'd like to move to this level and that kind of thing i think that's okay and reasonable and and it's okay to be to to want that um but i think the the way to get that is to think about those performance based goals those things like okay i want to get a summit title what does that look like what do i do to get that what does my actual performance look like in each individual search throughout a trial weekend what is my what does my uh training goals look like how do i prepare for that you know it's not you don't just show up and take your ribbon you know um so there's a lot that happens leading up to it so i think it's being able to really um honestly it's almost like reframing your brain in a way to like think about to to take that long-term goal off and say and be able to see it and break it into okay what does that mean for me in this search what am i working on um and so i think some of it is just like active i think it's a lot of active intentional um you know trying to formulate those purpose-driven goals each search so you know initially like i'll i'll have students like do this even whenever they're running searches in class like what's your goal for this search and and make it and it needs to be a performance-based goal it's not i find the hides it's i'm going to take a breath before i call alert i'm going to try not to crowd my dog or you know i'm going to stay you know six plus feet away from my dog or i'm going to stay behind my dog you know whatever it is but they need to so that you can start um like teaching your brain how to even think that way um because most of us are not we're not conditioned to think that way as a society we're thinking about the end goal and not all the pieces that that go into getting that end goal um so i think it's uh a lot of a lot of that and being like yeah yeah okay i want that and that's cool that's okay i i think um

i think sometimes we can be a little like and this coming from someone who i mean we all deeply love the sport for a lot of reasons that are very personal to us and our dogs um but like if we're competing we want to do well and that's okay um but i think um the other the other side of it you know yes we need to break these down into into actual perceivable things but also um for me a lot of it is uh with my goals thinking always about like what am i really doing this for um what why do i do this sport with my dog whenever something doesn't go well like remember okay did my dog have fun and did i have fun did my you know i remember screwing up nw3 on my very last search which always stings whenever you've like been perfect all the way through the day and that last search like you drop the ball and um i remember talking calling my mom on the drive home being so mad at myself and she said okay did gaby get his meatballs and i said yeah she's like okay i think he's probably okay so you know remembering that in the end it is q-tips and their dogs and they got their meatballs and it's all it's all good yeah i think i think we need to you know thinking about our goals um a lot of times i think people sometimes have goals that almost depend on other people and we need to be careful about that so as an example like a summit title right you have to place in a certain this is just an example like the certain top you know placements in a in a trial but honestly that goal is dependent on everybody else so you're only ever able to affect your own performance so for me you know yeah that that's that's a nice that that's you know it's awesome right but you also have to kind of think about what do you have to do to kind of manage the you know how do you handle the dog in front of you so my goal might be make sure that my dog's in the right arousal state my goal might be make sure that i'm present in every search um my goal might be to make sure that i cover the entire area and there oh yeah there's that that room over there that i better get in that room and you know things like that where i'm trying to look at smaller pieces of that where i can look for um how do i build success in smaller components because when you start to put those smaller components together that's when you get the get overall success and if you look at something and again summit's just top of mine right now just because i've been um my dogs are more like at that level right now but um you know that's eight searches so when you start you've got to really like my goal is can i keep it

together for eight searches things like that where i'm not looking at the outcome like i'm not saying my goal is to win the summit right that may end up being the outcome and if it is that's awesome but that's not actually the goal you know the goal is to make sure i've got a dog on the start line that i have i have focus that i have a dog that um you know it isn't spiraling up right that that i'm maintaining that line of communication and i think if we can keep our goals um kind of at you know the more qualitative level i think we ultimately end up more successful on the back end so that's what i would suggest to people is kind of think about you know how do you have goals around the quality of your searching alex um i think the piece that we really haven't touched yet maybe is the training goals for day-to-day kind of training what are we doing how do we get there how do you build those progressions to get to those spots i find myself going back to smart goals which seems kind of like oh it's so structured um but smart goals are specific measurable achievable relevant and time bound and normally i get stuck on the s which is fine because the s is normally where the problem is specific because and i did this recently with a friend of mine on our podcast is okay what's what's the goal and when we started asking the questions like my dog needs to be better with pooling so we ask questions was it you watching pooling was it your dog actually working out of pooling what was the actual piece and we started diving down into it it became a very actionable training goal that we could actually work on compared to my dog needs to be better on containers well containers general is not my problem it's maybe that he's stepping on them maybe that he's not sniffing each one right and so once i start diving down into all those little details i can start coming up with maybe four training goals and if i can work on those maybe once a week twice a week i'm actually going to get some really nice results that feels really confidence building and then i can go into a trial and test it and see how it goes and the results will speak for it and if they don't great test to go okay here's the new hole now i can build my new goal around that and build towards it i like those long-term goals because i think they give you the direction and like the motivation and the motivation to keep doing it but then it's those little goals that give you those little cookies the click to repeat so that we can actually want to keep doing it and i think those are pretty important um and 2025 it's the beginning

of the year it seems like a great time to kind of come up with a few of those little training goals that we can kind of play around with absolutely all right i want to give you each just a chance to maybe share any final thoughts or maybe key points that you kind of want to leave folks with maybe just to take away um i think it's been a great conversation there's tons in here so um maybe just we can drill it all down to one or two tips that would be awesome kayla you want to start us off oh gosh um question on the list i know yeah i think i think quite honestly uh not to get like sentimental but as someone with a couple senior dogs like enjoy the journey like it's uh all of it is good all of it the good the bad the yeses that knows the the the miles just all of it is good stacy yeah you know i'm gonna try not to get sentimental also but on the same that same line listen to your dog you know this this is a game let's straight up i'm just gonna say that this is a game that we play we do this for fun and i know a lot of us are really serious about it myself included but it's still a game and if the other end of that leash isn't having even more fun than you then thing you need to reassess some stuff right you know go out enjoy it and really embrace the fact that this is this is time you get to spend with your dog and it's really special alex yeah kind of along the same lines uh tana was diagnosed with cancer a year ago and so i got a whole year of playing summit and masters and we got all these titles and felt so good um but it was all the memories that we could do it was the year that i didn't know i would get and the friends the friends that we get to hang out with and enjoy and experience especially at the upper levels you don't get to see each other very often uh so it's really kind of nice to have those moments still so appreciate all of them like not just in the search but around the parking lot too it's a special sport that we actually get to be with each other and enjoy people as people without like watching each other search so it's almost like you get more people um as a result julie yeah um gosh you guys gave great you know great stories no they were wonderful um what two things came to mind for me was um one just about the community of nose work and also just about the conference um but for the community we had a little um get together with our local uh community and people who get their champions every year will have an event and they they all talk about their experience and you know show maybe their best or their their other search they struggled in

um on their way to their journey and one particular person um would would enter far away and travel far away and she went to one out of town i'm in rochester new york and she went to like indiana or something and um she didn't know anybody um but the host and this might ring a bell but the host had gotten in a bad like car accident and um was in the hospital so like the whole community like rallied and helped keep the trial going and they you know have raffles to help them you know help with the bills and and she just was so touched and then she went to another um trial in our area um i think it was when she finished her championship and there was somebody who was there that she knew wasn't trialing in but she drove somebody her friend to the trial um i think she had had some surgery so she couldn't drive so she just was struck so she didn't even talk about her her her dog she talked about the those are community and her travels going to different trials and and then afterwards she came up to me so i'm sorry i didn't like thank you or whatever you know and but she just was just so touched and she wasn't you know somebody who ever really you know posted a lot about you know her titles and stuff and so that was really touching to hear um and then and and um i remember i went to my first few trials i didn't know anybody and um and i still enjoy meeting new people because now you kind of know everybody and it's nice to go somewhere and you know i remember one of my first um my first um one of my neighbors my parking lot neighbors we you know you stay in touch with them you know and and you just remember those people from the parking lot when i used to always hated that we had to keep dogs in the car and they couldn't come out of the car a lot it's just become like the parking lot has become kind of really special now that i don't even really like to bring my crates into other you know venues if i'm doing agility i mean i do it but you know it's like i kind of like just working out the car now you know it's so funny because i like hated it at first um and then the other thing yeah so that that that that's actually a really nice i should just probably end it there but um um the other thing i just wanted to mention about you know you know my presentation and just as nose work as a whole you know the things that we're going to go over i'm assuming i can speak to everybody is it's not it's not insurmountable it's it's doable like the things i'm going to go over are very doable you know sometimes it seems you know so hard how do you get your dog that to be so distracted or how do you

help your dog when you support and and these strategies and tactics are very very simple and very doable so i'm very excited to um share that to to show that uh you know we can do it we can all we can all um support our dog as needed we can find the resources for training and um it's yeah so nothing should ever feel overwhelming um for training this sport um definitely there's challenges in the in this research you know set up some parameters but you know everything that we're training is at at our fingertips and um and there's just a lot of support as you can tell already from this conversation um of people in the community to um to help as needed awesome it's a good place to round things out so um thank you all so much for coming on the podcast this has been fantastic thank you thank you it's been great talking with you guys yeah it really has all right and thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in we'll be back next week don't miss it if you haven't already subscribe to our podcast in itunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available today's show is brought to you by the fenzy dog sports academy special thanks to denise fenzy for supporting this podcast music provided royalty free by bensound.com the track featured here is called buddy audio editing provided by chris lang thanks again for tuning in and happy training o