E128: 개의 불안증

So I want to kind of start by talking about just what anxiety actually is and kind of what it looks like. So what symptoms are we talking about? Jen, do you want to start yourself again? Sure. Yeah, I think that's definitely a good question to start with. It's not as straightforward, I think, as people might assume. Anxiety is actually a little bit of a slippery concept. So I'm interested to hear when it's Jessica's turn if she has any differences in her definition or if she wants to expand on this at all. But a good working definition, I would say, is probably something like apprehension or uneasiness about some kind of anticipated threat. So it's different from fear, although sometimes we tend to use those words a little bit interchangeably. And so the terminology can get a little confusing there. But a fear response, usually when we're talking about that, we're talking about something that's happening in the moment in response to something that's actually happening. And then once the threat is gone, it's over. And that's not really the case so much with anxiety. So in humans, when mental health professionals talk about anxiety, a big point of emphasis is that it involves worrying excessively about things that might happen or anticipating bad things that the person believes are going to happen. So obviously, that gets a little bit tricky when we try to apply this stuff to dogs, right? Because when we talk about dogs, we can't really know what they're thinking internally. But I would argue that if you've ever lived with an anxious dog or if you work with anxious dogs, it sure looks like they're worrying about things, right? Or that they're uncomfortable because they're anticipating that something scary is about to happen. So as far as what that actually looks like, we know that anxious dogs have a lot of physiological changes like increased heart rate and respiratory rate, dilated pupils, all that other stuff that comes along with adrenaline and increased levels of stress hormones. So behaviorally, this might look like trembling or pacing or circling, hypervigilance, you know, hiding or trying to escape the area, or sometimes whining or other types of vocalization. And then the last thing that's probably important to note definition-wise is that anxiety can be situational, meaning that the dog is maybe only anxious at the vet's office, right? Or only anxious during thunderstorms or when they're left alone. Or it can be generalized, meaning that, you know, there certainly are dogs that are just pretty anxious all the time about life, right?

Without any particular, you know, noticeable stimulus or reason. And we normally consider it an anxiety disorder, meaning an actual pathological problem that we probably should treat in some way. If it's severe enough that it's impacting the dog's quality of life, or if it's interfering with their ability to sort of function normally in their typical daily environment. Jessica, is there anything you would add to that? Do you have a slightly different definition? I mean, how would you define what anxiety is? Well, I think Jennifer did a fantastic job. So she said a lot of what I would have said. I have just a couple things to add. And one is that I feel like one really nice way of thinking about the difference between normal fear and anxiety would be this idea that if, you know, if you're in the same room as a lion, you'd be afraid that it might eat you. And that would be totally normal. But if you were had no reason really to think that there was a lion around the corner, and yet you sat there obsessing about like, is it there? And maybe it's going to be there. And I just don't know. That would be anxiety, right? So it's not that being afraid of things is always bad. It's totally normal to be afraid of some things. And in fact, we might say that some dogs who aren't afraid of anything have no sense of self-preservation. And that goes a little in the other direction. But it's just that this idea of sort of getting yourself all worked up over it when it's not likely to actually happen. And so like my dog, Jenny, who's very shy, you know, she's afraid of strangers. And so it's not, you know, it would be normal for her to be afraid of someone who was actually threatening her, but she's afraid of people who are not even threatening her. And so that would be that sort of where I would draw that line of what's normal and what's not normal. I came across this very cool term in the human literature recently. So exactly what Jennifer was talking about, that they sit and obsess and think about it, and that I definitely see this in my shy dog that she's like, I think, I think dad is going to come home. She doesn't like it when he comes home through the door, right? I think he's going to come and she'll spend an hour before he comes home worrying that it's going to happen and working herself up. And so in the human literature, they call this rumination, which I love this idea of sitting and thinking about something that makes you feel bad and just turning it over and over and over in your mind. So that's a new term for me, but I feel like it applies to anxious dogs really nicely. I like that.

I like that phrase. I think it... Yeah, totally. It does really fit. What do we know kind of about what actually causes anxiety? Jessica, I know you can get into some of the genetics on this. So do you want to talk about that? Yeah, so it's definitely a combination of genetics and then experience, environment, whatever you want to call it. And so the way I like to think of it is that genetics gives you some measure of risk for developing anxiety so that a dog is born with low risk of developing it or high risk of developing it. So pretty much any dog could end up having such traumatic experiences early on that they ended up being an anxious dog. It would be pretty hard to breed a dog who was so resilient that they would stand up to just anything, any sort of horrible early environment. And then on the other hand, there can be dogs who are born with a much higher risk of developing anxiety. But if they had a really, really ideal early environment, they might turn out to be fine. So it's really all about risk interacting with how their environment sort of rolls out. And when we talk about environment as well, people sort of tend to think about it as, you know, did I mess up while I was socializing the dog? Or was there a thing that happened that was traumatic? And sometimes that's the case. And it's nice when there's an easy thing that you can point your finger at. But there's just a lot more really detailed stuff that goes on in the environment that we don't even perceive. Starting, you know, when the dog is still in the uterus, that's part of their environment. And, you know, how the mom's stress is being passed on to the puppy while the fetus, while it's still in the uterus, can certainly affect how the animal grows up to be as an adult. You know, very early on in the nest, what the interactions with the other siblings are, what the, you know, interactions are with people at the breeders. Then there's the, you know, how the dog is socialized. And just all kinds of things even there that you might yourself not even be able to perceive. That's something that the dog perceives. So it's, when we talk about the environment, it's just, it's such a richer, more complex, interesting thing than we tend to think about. And it certainly seems to span a longer time span than most people tend to think about, right? If you're talking about in utero is the start. Yeah, exactly. And when we're talking about the genetics of it, we don't actually know really specific genes that promote either risk or resilience. But we know, we do know a lot about how those various systems that the genes themselves affect work.

So we know a lot about how the brain works and how the brain works differently in an anxious animal. And we know a lot about how the endocrine system works, so hormone levels. And we know a lot about how those are different in anxious animals. There's still a lot to learn, but there's a lot that we understand there too. Would you be up for getting into that just a little bit? Like, what do you mean by differences? You kind of just stuck it out there. It was, it was, yeah, it was, let's see. Differences in how the brain works, for example. There's one particular region of the brain called the hippocampus. And we know that it's really important in learning and memory and in things like, do I feel safe in this particular situation and not safe in this other situation where the situation might be, I'm safe at home. I'm not safe when I'm going for a walk or I'm not safe at the training facility or I'm not safe out in the open or, you know, differences like that. So we know that the hippocampus has a lot to do with the, where the dog perceives attaching the anxiety to. And we know that in humans particularly and rodents, and I'm not sure this has been done in dogs, but it may have, that you'll actually see that the hippocampus is a different size in people who have particular behavioral disorders. So somebody who is depressed or anxious a lot will tend to have a smaller hippocampus. Someone who's very resilient would tend to have a larger hippocampus. Another brain region, the amygdala, is the one that's associated with sort of our emotional response to events. And that would tend to be larger in someone who has anger problems or anxiety problems. Those sort of negative, it tends to attach negative emotions to events. So we know there that there's differences in those different brain regions. And then hormones, I think most people have heard about cortisol, which we refer to as the stress hormone. And that's just the end of a very long series of what we call a cascade of hormones. You know, this one triggers, that one triggers, that one. And how all that interacts together also is very different in animals who are very anxious compared to animals who are resilient, calm. So interesting. So really kind of on a biological level, looking at it. Jen, do you have anything you want to kind of talk to there about what we know about what causes anxiety? Yeah, super interesting. You know, I think Jessica definitely did a pretty comprehensive job of summing that up, which makes sense. I know that's like, that's what you do, right? So you're the big expert on those things.

I know with my clients, you know, when we talk about these things, because people that I see clinically for behavior problems, anxiety problems with their dogs do tend to want to know, like, well, why does this happen? And so usually the sort of, you know, 30 second summary that I try to give people is, you know, there are lots of different things that can contribute to why a particular dog might develop an anxiety disorder. Probably the big four factors would be, you know, genetics, perinatal, you know, stress or other issues around that, like, you know, things that happen in utero or during that neonatal period, lack of appropriate socialization during that, you know, really narrow window of time in puppies when they're really primed to be learning about what's safe in the world, and then negative experiences, you know, probably the big four things. Again, as Jessica was saying that there is a lot of research, I know in humans, but I guess it sounds like also in some other species as well, Jessica would know this part better than I do, that there is a lot of evidence that she was saying that it's really multifactorial, you know, it's not like, well, which of these things did it? It's like, well, it's kind of, kind of all of the above in a lot of cases and the way that they interact, that genetics can certainly increase the risk or susceptibility of an individual to develop anxiety issues. But then the environment and, you know, that individual's experiences are going to act on that genetic blueprint. And that's what ultimately influences whether or not a problem actually develops. So pretty complex thing, but pretty fascinating. I think that's a really fascinating area of research. So kind of to pull that apart a little bit more, you know, if it's something where, you know, some of those factors are obviously things that, you know, happen right away, like genetics, it's there from the get go. So is anxiety something that we'll see start to develop even in our really young puppy? Or is it something that we're more likely to kind of see come out kind of as the dog gets a little bit older? I mean, what's typical? What do we, how does it usually kind of present? And Jen, if you want to start? Sure. So I would say certainly could be either or depending on the specific situation. We can absolutely see puppies who have obvious anxiety issues from a pretty young age, you know, the sometimes puppies who come into our vet clinic, right, you know, and it's an eight week old puppy. And instead of, you know, coming up to me and, you know, happily eating string cheese out of

my hand and checking out the room, it's like hiding under the owner's chair and it growls, you know, when you try to touch it, you know, that's not normal for an eight week old puppy. So we know that if we see that in a really young dog, that's a pretty strong indication that, you know, this, this dog is going to be at a high risk to have some pretty significant anxiety issues as it grows and develops. But we also see other dogs who can develop issues later in life as a result of, you know, having some bad experiences or sometimes medical issues or other factors. So in general, I would say that the majority of dogs that have serious anxiety issues are showing pretty clear signs of a problem by the time they hit social maturity. So around one and a half to two years old, pretty rare in my experience to see problems pop up completely out of the blue after that. Although we can certainly see some dogs that have mild problems when they're younger that can get worse with age. Jessica, do you have anything you want to add to that or maybe a little bit from Jenny's history you want to share? Yeah. So she, Jennifer covered it great there. Definitely these behavioral problems often are things that sort of appear as dogs are reaching maturity and as they're changing the way that they interact with the world and sort of starting to see themselves as adults and to take more responsibility for how they interact with the world, but absolutely can show up in, in very young puppies. Jenny's case, I got her when she was 13 months old. She had been born on a farm as an oops litter, or I like to say as a, well, the dogs just do that sometimes litter. I guess I don't think they had taken any real steps to prevent it. So she had been born on this farm and lived on the farm and never left it until she was taken into the shelter at age 10 months. And the owners didn't realize that she was an anxious dog until they brought her in. And I think that was, that suggests to me that it was very much a failure of socialization, that she would have done much better if she had ever gotten off that property during her socialization period. But for sure then as well, there's going to be some amount of genetic risk. I mean, she was really severely anxious when I got her. It took me several weeks to be able to touch her without her peeing. I tried to touch her as little as possible, obviously. Um, so she was, she was a real mess when I got her. And I think a lot of dogs would have managed the situation that they found themselves in better. So there definitely was probably some amount of Ellen elevated risk genetically.

And then she was dealt a very poor hand environmentally as well. So, but she, um, what's been interesting to see that with medication and management and behavioral modification over the, what, nine years that I've had her, she has continued gradually to improve. I kept assuming she would plateau at some point, but she has just kept gradually improving. And she's, you know, she's better today than she was a year ago. And she's massively better than she was nine years ago. So that that's been hopeful for me to know that it's not, you know, dogs aren't stuck just because you get them as adults. And that's quite a story of, you know, kind of hope for folks out there. If somebody else is dealing with it and they want to kind of dedicate time and effort to really working on it, that there there's a chance, you know, things will get better. She was a massive amount of work when I first got her, which of course was while I was in my clinical year of vet school. So my wife, she was scared of, had to manage her a fair amount when I couldn't be at home. And there'd be times when he'd call me up, um, and I'd be on clinics and couldn't leave. And he'd say, you know, I let her out to pee and now she won't come back in because we had a stranger in the house earlier today. And she's afraid that they're still there. They're not still there. So there's perfect case of rumination, right? Um, so she won't come back in and, you know, this was like January in New England. And so I can't just leave the door open for her and I don't want to just leave her outside, but I have to leave now because I have a job interview. So what am I supposed to do? I don't even remember what we did in that particular one. Um, but I was like, I'm on ER. I can't come home and get her, you know? So there were definitely cases of him leaving the door open January in New England and walking out deep into the backyard to get behind her. And then she would go into the house, stuff like that. But, um, she was a lot of work at first, but she's, she's massively better now. If we have a dog, you know, either like Jenny or just, you know, somebody else's dog, is it possible to even pull apart, um, the cause of anxiety for that particular dog? I mean, I know you talked a little bit about, you think in her case, it was probably, you know, a little bit of the lack of socialization at least. Can we pull it apart? Is it even worth pulling it apart? Yeah. I think asking whether it's worth, worth pulling it apart is a really good question because in most cases, I don't think it is worth pulling it apart.

It's just, this is the dog that you have in front of you and you just try to deal with it now. I mean, obviously if there's a current environmental issue, then it's very important to figure that out so you can change it. But if we're talking about stuff that's going on in the past, you hear a lot of people saying things like, oh, well, it's genetic, so it can't be fixed. And I think that's very much not true. Um, there certainly can be a genetic risk for it developing, but that doesn't mean it can't be fixed as well. Um, and, and, you know, and when I say that it doesn't mean, you know, sometimes there are dogs that we work with really hard and it just, it comes to be clear after some amount of time that we're not going to be able to make that dog able to fit into this environment. And the dog does have to be, um, either rehomed or euthanized. And that's really hard. But what I am saying, so I'm not saying that those people are wrong to make that decision. What I am saying is deciding that a dog is, um, that the anxiety is genetic and therefore it's not worth even trying, I think is a mistake. I think that genes will point the dog in a particular direction maybe. Um, but that doesn't mean we can't turn the dog around and point it in another direction. So, and again, I think Jenny's anxiety probably was in, in large part, her genetics added to, uh, you know, a total, total lack of socialization attempts from what I can tell, but I'm sure genetics contributed to that, but that didn't mean that she couldn't improve. It just meant that it was work to get her from where she was. So. Yeah. Jen, anything you want to add to that? Yeah. I think that, uh, I would tend to agree with just about everything there. You know, Jessica, um, put it really well. You know, I think it's interesting, you know, to, to talk about why a particular dog might be the way that they are. I think it's kind of natural for us as humans to sort of wonder about that. And, um, clients often, you know, are interested in, in talking about that. And I don't think it's necessarily harmful to at least talk a little bit about like, well, what do we know? You know, are there any educated guesses we could make, but I would totally agree with Jessica that it's, you know, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter all that much and that we should not confuse thinking we have an explanation with, um, locking us into anything as far as our expectations for the dog. You know, there are definitely times with client dogs when we can make a pretty good educated guess, right. About why they, they might be the way that they are.

And then other times it's a mystery. It is harder for us because, you know, we can't do talk therapy with dogs, right. The way that a psychologist or a therapist could do with a human patient, you know, they can't tell us about their past. They can't tell us if they have bad dreams about things or, you know, what they worry about. So it's a little bit harder, but sometimes there are some pretty definite clues, right. Sometimes the owner is aware of a specific incident that seemed to be the starting point of the problem. Or we might know that a particular anxious dog like Jenny, right. Didn't get much socialization as a puppy, you know, so we could plausibly infer that that's probably a contributing factor there. Or we might know that this puppy's parents and litter mates also have anxiety issues so that it's, it's likely the problem has some genetic component to it. But there are an awful lot of cases, especially in dogs that maybe the current owner has gotten as an adult and doesn't really know much about their history and, and the dog just is the way it is that we don't know, you know, which is also fine because the good news is I always tell my clients, it really doesn't impact our treatment plan, right. We're going to treat the situation the same way, regardless of what we think the underlying causes might've been. So at the end of the day, it doesn't matter all that much, but I do agree that in cases where we're able to figure it out, it can definitely be interesting. Yeah. I am. I was actually thinking that kind of, as you were talking was, I was wondering if, or how much, you know, kind of understanding the cause or where something comes from might impact, you know, the plan you create going forward. So let's, let's kind of get into that. Let's say we have a dog, they're showing signs of anxiety, you know, what are those next steps? Jessica, maybe you want to start on this one? And then we'll have Jen talk about it. Uh, well, I guess from, so from my perspective as a researcher, I tend to immediately defer to the people who are actually in practice about exactly what to do about it. So what I talked about with, uh, Jenny was, uh, medication, um, which with a, who had, with a dog who's having real issues with dealing with their world, medication is definitely something to consider. So I would suggest that I would suggest that I would suggest to someone that they find someone very competent to help them, um, and not try to go it alone. And I would, you know, point them either to a behavior consultant. So IAABC is a great place, uh, international, oh man, we're applied. Yeah.

Of animal behavior consultants, I think. Right. Acronyms are hard. IAABC.org can help you find a behavior consultant. Um, they will not be able to prescribe meds for your dog. Um, but they can, hopefully most of them would be great at working up a really good behavior modification plan and help you figure out the, um, you know, how to manage the dog, stuff like that. Um, and then, uh, veterinary behaviorists obviously are also a really great option. Um, often working hand in hand with a behavioral consultant and a veterinary behaviorist would be someone who would be able to provide medication for your dog in, in general, I would warn against going to someone who doesn't specialize in behavior. So, um, either, either someone who, you know, is a boarded behaviorist or someone like Jennifer who really cares about it and has done a lot of thinking about it and a lot of self-education about it would also be a fabulous option, but just your regular primary care veterinarian tends not to be the best option. They tend to only know Prozac as a medication and not recognize that there are others that are more appropriate for certain diagnoses. Um, and they tend not to have the training chops that are, are really required for something like this. Yeah. So I think that's a, that's a good summary in general of kind of how we approach treatment for these guys. There is a lot that we can do to help them, which is good. So I know in my, um, webinar that's coming up, I am going to be talking a fair amount about treatment and I, but I can definitely give kind of an overview of the main points here just to give you guys a general idea of what that tends to look like. You know, with pretty much all behavior problems, I'm a veterinarian. So when I see behavior cases, I'm, you know, looking at it kind of through that lens. We basically take a three-pronged approach as Jessica was saying. We look at management, we look at behavior modification, and then we look at meds if, if we think that they're going to be useful for a particular case. So when we apply that scheme to anxiety disorders, management usually means avoiding situations that trigger the anxiety as much as possible, except when we're actively working on the problem. Um, if that's not possible, because sometimes it's not right. Like if you have a dog that is anxious about thunderstorms, sometimes it storms, you know, say you have to do what you can. Then we want to do whatever we can to make things easier and less stressful for the dog in that moment. So again, if we're talking about the example of a dog who gets anxious during thunderstorms,

management might mean using a white noise machine or music or noise from the TV to help mask the sound of thunder and keeping your curtains closed to block out the flashes of lightning. And it could also mean something like, um, you know, providing a safe haven for the dog to hide in if that makes him feel better, like a closet or the bathtub or a spot under the bed in your bedroom. So just kind of whatever you can do to either avoid the problem or make the dog as sort of comfortable as possible if there are times when you can't avoid it. So with behavior modification, that is the part of the plan that, you know, a lot of people tend to think of as training, right? Even though it's really not about training per se, in the sense of teaching some kind of specific skill or behavior. Our goal actually is usually, um, to try and change how the dog feels about the trigger. The details of how we do that, obviously that can get complicated and could take up a whole podcast, but basically what we normally do is we try to set up some type of controlled exposure to whatever the dog is anxious about and pair that situation with stuff that the dog likes. So a lot of times that might mean really tasty food treats, but it could also be play or petting or anything else that the dog really enjoys. And the goal, if you're doing everything correctly over time, is that the dog is going to learn to associate the trigger with good stuff and doesn't feel anxious about it anymore. And then finally, um, Jessica is absolutely right. Medication can be a game changer for a lot of these guys. We have a few different types to choose from. We have daily meds, we have situational meds, and different ones are going to be, um, often a better choice for certain specific diagnoses. So it is good to kind of know what options are available and be able to tailor that to the individual patient that you have. That is something that we're going to be talking a little bit about in the webinar. So, um, definitely tune in if you're interested in that aspect. So speaking of the webinar, that was kind of the impetus for us chatting, right? It was, um, was the fact that you guys are going to do back-to-back webinars, um, on anxiety on August 29th. So I wanted to, um, just kind of have you guys each kind of briefly share a little bit about what you'll be covering, um, and who maybe you might want to tune in, um, if folks are debating, if they should join us. Uh, Jen, since you already talked about it, do you want to start us off? Sure. So, um, in my webinar, we're mostly going to be looking at the clinical side of things.

So what does anxiety look like? Um, how do we define it in our patients? And then how can we help dogs who have anxiety disorders? So I would say that if you, certainly if you have a dog currently who has any kind of anxiety issues, there should be some good practical information in there for you. It could also be helpful for, um, trainers or behavior consultants who treat anxiety disorders. And even for regular dog owners who have nice normal dogs at the moment, because you never know about the next dog, right? I will be talking a little bit about what you can do to help, um, prevent your dog from having these issues in the first place. So that part should be relevant to just about everybody. Mm-hmm. Um, is it something where, you know, maybe it's something good for dog trainers to kind of understand or? Yeah, absolutely. I think that, um, particularly for dog trainers who maybe don't do a whole lot with anxiety stuff yet, but they'd like to get a little more involved in that, you know, that certainly could be a good starting point. You know, certainly people who already do a lot of anxiety work, you know, a lot of it may be stuff they already know, but the medication discussion might still be a little bit helpful for them, you know, if, if they're not coming from a veterinary background. Awesome. Uh, Jessica, do you want to talk about what, um, you'll get into with your... Yeah. Um, as we discussed before this had started, I, I haven't actually started prepping this yet. So here's my, here's my current plan for what it'll be is, um, is sort of two pronged. One, uh, walking through different phases of the dog's life and what the risks and the issues are there. Obviously a lot of stuff going on earlier in the dog's life, less going on later in the dog's life, but talking a lot about the different phases of that early part of the dog's life and, and what to be particularly careful about there. And then separately also walk through what we know about the biology. And so just digging in, in more gory detail to what goes on in the brain and what goes on with the hormones. Um, and what we know, you know, maybe, maybe even a little bit epigenetics if people are interested in that, although that ends up being such a big topic, uh, that it can be tough to, to get into, but I'll try to, I'll try to cover it, particularly if people wanted to message me ahead of time and, and encourage me and that would, that would make it easier for me to, to figure out what to, what to put in. Um, but so, and I'm, I'm thinking that who it would be appropriate for would be, you know,

I like to say that I'm not the practical person. I'm more of the like understanding what's going on person. So if you have an anxious dog and you kind of want to understand a little bit more about what's going on inside their body, then I'm, I'm, I'm good for that. Like I'll tell you guys more than you ever think that you wanted to know about that. And to be able to come away from that feeling like it does provide some practical benefit for them, at least in understanding a little bit more what their dog's perspective is and how it feels to, to be living in the, in their dog's skin. Um, but also for people who are thinking about getting their next sport prospect and who recognize that real importance of getting a dog who's super resilient and can go into the ring and be like, that's fine. You know, I don't care that some strange dog is staring at me. I don't care that somebody else is barking. I don't understand. I don't care that this stranger just walked up to me and petted me right in the face without permission. Like it's fine. I'm ready to go do my run and focus on that. Um, because I am not ruminating about it. That's really important for sport dogs. And so if you want to, uh, maximize the possibility that you get a dog like that, obviously with biology, there's no, there's no perfect ways of doing it, right? There's no way of having 0% risk, um, of, of having an anxious dog. But if you know, so I, I also try to provide information for how to think through how to find your next dog and, and how to minimize that risk when you do that. Despite what I said here in the episode, the ladies actually had to reschedule the webinar. So instead of August 29th, they've been bumped back to October 31st. So if you're listening to this and you want to attend them, um, you'll want to mark that date on your calendar instead. So Jessica will present at three o'clock Pacific time on October 31st and Jennifer will present at 6 PM Pacific time on October 31st. Thanks. All right. So I feel like we've covered a lot of ground here, ladies, but if, if you could each kind of leave listeners with one big takeaway or tip when it comes to anxiety, you know, what would you, what would you really want folks to remember? Jessica, you missed yourself. Yeah. I think my biggest takeaway is that you should try to work on it. And, uh, a lot of people I talked to a surprising number of people, even people who I consider really, really high level dog owners who will sort of say, well, that's just the way that dog is. And, you know, so maybe I got her to do sports and she's not going to do sports and that's okay.

She hangs out on the couch and I have another dog who does sports and that's fine, you know, but what is that, you know, the dog was hanging out on the couch. Who's really afraid of the mailman or the visitor or, you know, too scared to go on a dog walk. Think about what that dog's quality of life is and don't, don't take it for granted that the dog is always going to be that way. There's often stuff that you can do. Um, so look into it. That that's my biggest takeaway. Yeah. Great minds think alike. Yeah. I, my biggest takeaway as well is that, um, I would love for people to know and keep in mind that this is often a really treatable problem. Um, you know, coming from, like I said, I I'm coming at this from, you know, a clinical perspective. This is what I spend a fair amount of my time doing, um, is evaluating dogs who have anxiety issues and then putting together treatment plans for them. If we treat them, they get better guys. They, they do, they may not get, you know, a hundred percent to where, you know, your, ideal social butterfly, super resilient, not afraid of anything dog might be, but there's a really good chance we can get them, you know, better than they are right now. So that would be, you know, the, the biggest thing I would try to emphasize is that if you have a dog that has anxiety sometimes, and it seems abnormal or excessive to you, then we definitely want to try to address that if we can. Um, you know, so if you, if you do have that issue with your dog, it's absolutely worth getting in touch with some kind of behavior professional about what's going on, who can help you, you know, whether that's a veterinary behaviorist or an applied animal behaviorist or a trainer who has some experience and expertise dealing with anxiety issues. Definitely well worth it. Awesome. Well, thank you so much ladies for joining me. Yeah, no problem. It's been fun. Yeah. Thanks for having us. It's an important topic. So it's always a pleasure to get a chance to talk about it. Oh, well, well, thank you. And thank you, our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back again next week. Don't miss it. If you haven't already subscribed to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in. Happy training.