E135: 마이클 바디알(Michael Badial) - "공격성 다루기"

5:27

And so growing up, we took a lot of pride in just our ability to hang out, you know, in visual sight, you know, like in sight of people. Because that wasn't something that was always safe. And so I think that the number of fights I got into as a kid that kind of lent to that mentality, you know, not that I was I wasn't to bully myself. I just was somebody who wasn't willing to back down from from problems. And so I think that has helped for me to maintain a perspective that helps me in this this work. Have you always been a positive trainer? No. No. Okay. What got you started there? Yeah. So with that dog I mentioned, I used in the beginning with the first mentor, I used the prong collars and I used the choke collars and I used the e-collar. And he was very obedient. And that was for about two years that I used those tools with him and then helping out in the classes and that kind of stuff. And it. I had a dog who listened to everything I said. He looked super amazing. Considered competing with him in agility. He did so he did so well on the agility course. And I could be in a room with other people and other dogs, but they couldn't touch him. They still couldn't get near him. And it didn't solve my problem. Like I remember there was a day where I'm walking him and I'm watching him as he's on the e-collar. And I take his leash off and I let him run because, you know, he's on e-collar. He's not going anywhere. He just wasn't happy. And I remember seeing him and thinking like he's not a happy dog. He's. His emotional place isn't a good one. And then I started tuning into myself and like thinking, am I happy? You know, am I happy about what's happening here? And I wasn't. And it was always sort of there, but I just kind of brought some noticing to it. But so then I decided that I needed somebody else to try to help me and show me a different way. And so I went to a different trainer and then that trainer showed me that there was a different way to train dogs. And that's that's really what opened up the possibility of not having to use, you know, physical pain or fear to train. And and then it helped him and he overcame the issue. And I is like he went from walking down the street, biting people out of nowhere because the punnet effectively punished out his his warning behaviors to him being able to walk down the street and pay attention to me instead of, you know, voluntarily pay attention to me instead of threat assess. And, you know, he became a very, very good dog. I mean, he was always a good dog. He's just he became a dog that was less of a threat to society, I guess.

8:18

I know kind of from from other conversations, you've talked a little bit about you did a fair amount of experimentation and kind of thinking through things yourself to like figure out methods that worked for you. Can you do you want to share any of that? Yeah. So when I started up my rescue, so I started up a rescue organization when I worked at the kennel, they gave me six runs. They said you can have six runs to work with dogs. You don't have to pay for the runs. They're yours to use. The only thing we ask is like if, you know, you don't have a dog in that run and we can make money off of it that we do. I said, yeah, absolutely. So I made sure those runs were full all the time. And I had these six dogs. I would I I got really involved in the local community. And so anytime there was a bite case that came up, some of the local municipalities reached out to me and say, hey, can you take this dog? Can you work with this dog? Can you come pick up this dog? We can't give this dog off this property. And that kind of became my life. And so at the time, I didn't have anybody showing me really like I had that one person with the one mentor who helped me with with that one dog. But outside of that, I didn't have anybody showing me how to actually address aggression without the use of punishment. And so I just said, well, you know, I screw it. I'll figure it out myself. And so I went through this phase where I really just analyzed every single aspect of handling a dog. I thought to myself, if I could just successfully handle this dog without getting bit, without him, him or her making attempts to bite me, then I'm successfully reproducing what I need the dog to do with anybody else. And so every little step along the way from breaking it down to how do I successfully get this dog out of this kennel to, you know, how do I get them out the door and then past other dogs and then down the street? And then, you know, I analyzed how do I hold the leash so I don't get bit? How do I, you know, how do I hold the leash so the dog feels comfortable? Because that's the thing that's possible without, you know, any other tool other than just the leash. How do I pay attention to the environment such to the effect that I can have my eyes on the dog but still know what's going on around me? And so I would go into these deep states of learning and the environment helped too because it was very rural area.

10:42

And so I had like this spot near a creek where I could just sit quietly with a dog and just, you know, watch them and listen with my ears and pay attention to the fact that it's actually tracking the bird that's up in the tree or the, you know. And so I would go into a lot of states like that. And that is actually what taught me the most about dogs and their reactivity issues and their sensitivities to the environment. And then through play, once I started saying, okay, cool, now I can handle this dog effectively. Because with every dog, it was like a little bit different of a process. But you quickly learned how not to agitate the dog through the leash or how, you know, how to get them to move or even sometimes how to agitate them. Because if they wouldn't move, you know, you needed movement. And so I went through that learning process. And you quickly figure out, especially with dogs who are quick to bite, how much of an impact agitation has. And agitation flows down the leash. And if you're frustrated, that's what ends up happening. So then I started integrating play into it because I needed control over the bite. And I figured if I can get them to bite something, then I can start getting control over the bite. And so I would wear protective equipment, whether it was gloves or it was, you know, scratch pants or a jacket. And I would go through it. And I knew that my movements are either going to trigger or avoid a bite. So if I closed in on the dog too quickly or if I, you know, made too much of a dominant posture toward the dog, how they're going to respond and react. And so I just would really go through processes of feeling it out. And all the while trying to keep the dog's emotional state at top priority. So I didn't want the dog, I knew that I didn't want the dog afraid. I knew that I didn't want the dog to feel, you know, scared or lack of confidence. I wanted them, I didn't want them necessarily to be confident because I was worried at the time that if they were too confident, then they were going to revert back to the strategies they knew worked, which was the bite. And so I was, it was always just teetering through that emotional scale while working and playing with them. And then what would happen is trust would kick in. Oh, Michael is, is going to read me. He's going to take off pressure, you know, when I display certain behaviors. And, and then once that trust kicked in, it was easier to get everything to happen. And so then I would just try to replicate that ritual over and over again and then show potential adults. Adopters, the ritual.

13:27

And if they couldn't perform the ritual, then this wasn't a good dog for them. Because I never approached it from the aspect that this dog is now cured of aggression. I didn't, I, and I still don't, I don't think that that's a truth that anyone can state, you know. This dog has, has displayed a willingness to use this level of bite to, to solve conflicts. And I don't think just because now he's willing to display less, you know, more, you rely on more dominant behavior versus aggressive behavior. That he is going to never bite again. I don't, I don't think that's true. And I don't think anybody can say that. So I would always present it to the people who wanted to adopt these dogs that, hey, look, here's the risks. Here's the past, what he's done in the past. Here's where we've gotten. Can you replicate this? Can you successfully handle this dog? And I was surprised at how many people could and wanted to and took that risk on. But, um, I know I'm getting a little off track from the original question, but like going through that process and even, even just trying to teach those people how I did what I did was a lot of observation. Hey, I need you to come to the field and I need you to watch me work this dog. And, you know, they would watch before they would ever interact with the dog. And then I would start slowly integrating them into the play. And then once they were involved in the play and the dog was accepting of their presence in the play, then it would, it just made it more and more easy. And I was overly cautious, uh, because obviously I didn't want anybody getting, you know, ripped apart. Um, and, uh, the kind of what I ended up doing was if I could never get to a point with the dog where they were, um, you know, I was able to handle them. Then I would seek out another trainer if possible. Uh, but that very few and far between people weren't just volunteering to take the dogs who were causing damage to people. Um, and then if that didn't happen, then I would have to euthanize them. And, you know, and that I would sit there with the dog and, you know, go through that. And ultimately that's what made me stop doing the rescue is that I just couldn't take that anymore. You know, but. If that's how you kind of got into things, you know, where are you today when you kind of look at your approach or your philosophy or kind of how you, how you handle cases and things like that? How would you describe the approach you bring to training today? Yeah. So, uh, I, today with aggression cases specifically, uh, I'm way more about teaching the owner how to be successful.

16:03

I'm not about, you know, like I, again, like I said earlier, I don't teach them that, Hey, you're going to eliminate your aggression problem. You're not, you're not going to cure your dog of aggression. Uh, you're, I want to teach you how to be a successful handler of the dog you have in front of you. And then as that process grows and as the trust grows, then you're going to see more and more success. And for me, a big part of that is communication before we ever work with or touch the dog. So I mentioned those processes that I went through, uh, with, you know, as I was learning and growing with the dogs, I've gotten to a point where I have a condensed teaching of that. You know, like you, as you practice something over and over again, you become more efficient, obviously, and you know more about it and you become confident in the fact that like, okay, this works. So now before we even start working with clients, I'm teaching them the things I need them to know to keep me safe. Right. So like, I used to just be like, well, screw it. Bite suit. Here we go. You know, and then I could just go and start working with people and I would get bit. And, you know, like after a while, it's like, Hey, I can't do this anymore because these people are not strong handlers, which is what's leading to the bites. It's not that I was forcing the dogs to do anything they shouldn't do. It's that most of the time the handler errors was where the dog would lunge and then they would lose the leash and then the dogs on me. And then, you know, like, and so I put a lot of emphasis in like, okay, I need to teach the client what to do before I even get there to the point with the dog. And, you know, I used to also focus a lot on, I'm going to become this dog's friend. And that was helpful to a point because it would prove to the client that it's possible for your dog to accept new people. Now we're talking like extreme levels of aggression cases here. Not like your, your normal, like, Oh, my dog barks, you know? And then after five minutes, I'm not talking reactivity. We're talking, we're talking about, yeah, he wants to eliminate the person in the house. Um, you know, so I would get to these points with these dogs where they're like my friend and they're great. They accept me now, but that doesn't necessarily help them with the next person, you know? And they would be like, well, why doesn't he accept that person? And I would have to repeat to them, like, do you remember the ritual that we went through and how long it took?

18:25

And the surprising part really is like, you know, most cases, three, three, one hour sessions. So if you really think about that, it's, yeah, it's three weeks. It's spread over three weeks, but it's three hours. I'm with them for three hours. And then after three hours, the dog's cool. You know, like that a lot of times that's what it was. And so it's really just trying to get them to understand like, Hey, look, there's a ritual to this that your dog needs and we have to figure it out. Um, but now I actually don't even want the dog to get comfortable with me. I don't, I don't want them to get to the point where I'm their friend. Uh, because it's really hard to generate strangers who want to take on this work with the client. And so I need the client to know how to train and handle the dog in the company of strangers. The, the interesting part though, is to this, even though I don't like, I'm not petting the dogs. I'm not interacting with the dogs. I'm not playing with them. I'm not delivering any of the food or the reinforcement. I'm simply acting as a stranger in the environment. They still get to a point of, Oh, I know this guy, you know, cool. I've never physically sniffed them. I've taken in his scent from afar. You know, I've watched him enough to know that he's not a threat. And that's ideal. Like to me with, with clients who have a dog who will bite, it's ideal for them to get to the point where they can trust that there's a process they can implement where their dog will not aggress toward the people in the home, you know? So a lot of it for me is instruction upfront and then, you know, really focusing on getting the, the, the handler to a point where they're going to keep everyone safe, the dog included. So as a professional trainer, is this really, you know, the, the kind of training you focus on? Are you mostly doing aggression cases these days? We get a lot, we get a lot of it because we are, I mean, there's a couple other trainers in our area who promote that they can do this, you know, force free or with our plus training. But a lot of the times they're sending us these clients and, you know, then there's a lot of trainers in our area who address this kind of stuff through. The use of e-collars and prom collars. And, and then I ended up getting those clients a lot of times because they end up making the situation worse. So we don't shy away from these cases by any means. But I am reaching a point now where it's like, is this always what I want to be doing? You know? Because for me, I never, I never stopped thinking about these clients.

20:57

Like I work with them and at night I'm thinking about them, you know? And then like a month later, two months later, I'm thinking about them. I'm wondering how they're doing. I'm wondering, you know, are, is their dog safe? Is their dog still alive? You know, like it's, it's very emotional work. And, and, um, you know, but to, to answer that question, uh, yeah, we do a lot of this and we, we do promote, promote that we take on these types of cases. And I used to take it in, in a board and train setting, but now that I have children, I don't do that anymore. I do it strictly in private lesson format. What, what do you do for your board and trains? Cause I know you guys do a fair amount of those. Um, what is that type of work? We do a lot of reactivity in our board and train. Uh, we will at times take on, uh, cases where dogs haven't necessarily gotten along with other dogs, but a lot of it's puppy stuff. A lot of it's, um, just not listening, not coming when called and they're just busy people and they don't have the time to put foundations in place. Um, and for me, my approach to, to life with dogs here is that it's, they're living with us, you know, they're, they're going through as much of our day-to-day routine as they possibly can. And I'm going to be working them out in public a lot. I want them to get to the point where they're just good dogs, you know, like they're, they're being dogs, they're displaying natural dog behavior, but they're responsive to their handler. Uh, and you know, they're, they're able to enjoy life as well as their, their handler be able to enjoy life. That's, that's my goal in our board and train. You know, it's not, it's not to have a robot dog. It's not to have, you know, a dog who, you know, the, the 100% of the time listens 100% of the time. That doesn't exist. I'm going to say that right now. Like, I don't care. You know, like so, so many people, uh, you, you, you know, that's the, it's the selling point to a board and train, right? Like your dog's going to go to this board and train and he's going to come back and listening 100% of the time. That's craziness. You know, like no being does that. No being, no human being does that. You know? So, so that's not my goal. Our, our board and train, the goal of our board and train is that they, they learn how to, how to be responsive to their handlers and, and, um, you know, do listen better, of course, and, and understand the words we're using. Um, also the rules and boundaries of the house, you know, um, and just, you know, have overall better manners, you know, when they leave here. Um, so, and it's fun to work.

23:25

It's really rewarding actually. To talk a little more about the reactive aggressive dog stuff. Um, I know you said you, you often start off kind of by talking to the handler and kind of coaching the handler on how to be safe, even just during the training sessions. Can you go into a little more detail on that? Or is there like a, a very first step there where you usually really begin the work? Yeah. So once during the phone consult, when they're now, I don't do any in-person consults. I don't meet the dogs before I start working with them. Um, and that's more of a state of my confidence and my ability than it is anything else. Because I know there's a lot of trainers that want to see the dog first. And I think that's probably the riskiest thing, you know, like, because I did that, you know, we used to do free consults and I would go to a home for free and evaluate their dog. And that's when you're most likely to get bit. Isn't that an initial consult? And so I realized like, I've seen enough of this to know what's going on and know how to handle it. I don't need to see the dog. There's no, there's no new behavior is going to be thrown at me, you know? Uh, so I do the consult over the phone. Now, once I realized on the consult that they are going to sign up, I'm already instructing them on what I want them to do. That information is then repeated in an email. And so like in our email for onboarding process, they are given very specific instructions on what they are to do with the dog before I even get there. And then I'm calling them before I get there, especially if I'm, I'm concerned, you know, about the case and I'm making sure that they've implemented things I've asked. And then, um, you know, I'm, I'm doing as much education around what I want them to do as possible. And then the beginning of the appointment, it's, I don't, the dog's not out. The dog doesn't have access to me. You know, um, I'm trying to eliminate as many possibilities for this dog to get to me and bite me as possible, right? Because what they paid me is not going to cover the medical bills, you know? So, um, then I, once it's just me and the client, I'm instructing them again, I'm showing them what I want them to do. I'm giving them examples. I'm taking a look at their equipment that they're going to have the dog on and I'm trying to find any failing points, you know, that way that, uh, the clip doesn't come off the harness or the harness doesn't have tears in it or the, you know, I like being in the military for so long. Uh, one of the things we do before we use any piece of equipment is we inspect it, you know,

26:01

like, so if you're handed a rifle, you inspect your rifle right there in front of the person who's going to sign this rifle over to you for a couple of reasons. One, you want, you want it to be serviceable, but you also want to be able to say, Hey man, this site post is broken. You know, I didn't break it. You did, you know, uh, that type of stuff. And then especially like in vehicles, you know, if we're, I, I operate vehicles in the military that have high explosive rounds. And if there's a misfunctioning piece to that vehicle, that could mean the death of the entire crew, you know? So it's serious business to inspect your equipment before you use it. And I don't know, you know, how many dog trainers actually take that aspect seriously. And, but it can prevent, you know, a life-threatening situation. So I think the army just really hammered that home to me. And then, you know, the understanding that, Hey, you know, crawl, walk, run. That's what we do in the army. That's what you should do with aggression cases too. Let's crawl through the information first. I'll show you some handling stuff before you even put it on the dog. Let's walk through it. You know, now we're moving a little bit faster and then let's run through it. The dog's now involved, you know, um, that, that process alone, I think has dramatically increased my life expectancy. You know, um, but, uh, but yeah, so that's, that's, you know, the process in a nutshell of what I do, you know, with those clients. You mentioned, you know, that there are things you do or you're showing them to kind of create safeguards to kind of prevent things from going wrong. Um, can you give me an, just kind of an example of, of what you're talking about there? Yeah. So, uh, you know, one of the first, one of the key pieces, right. Is a leash, let's say. Right. And so it'll go just like this. Let me see your leash. And they bring the leash out and I go, okay, great. You know, six foot flat nylon. Awesome. Like it, you know, oh wait, it's got this bungee extension to it. No, that's not going to be able to use it. Do you have a different leash? No, I don't have a different leash. Okay. Then we can't work today. You know, or I've got one, you know, because I knew you might not, you know, um, but, uh, like it's, it's literally going through, um, okay, the leash is now good. It looks serviceable. Can this snap come off and let me see your harness. And then I'll, you know, I will, um, a lot of, a lot of leashes can actually just really quickly come off the harness. If the, if the leash snap is positioned, uh, correctly for it, you know, or incorrectly,

28:39

I guess would be the case. So I'm testing that kind of stuff. And then I'm saying, okay, great. Now that we've checked your equipment, now I need you to hold the leash. Show me how you hold the leash. And then they'll show me how they do it. And then once they show me how they hold the leash, I say, okay, hold onto that leash. And now I'm going to start trying to take it from you, you know, because this is the other part. How strong are they? Are they actually strong enough to handle the dog that that's, you know, going to come out? Um, and then what's their handling technique look like? And then, uh, once I've tested that, okay, great. That looks good. Now we can move to the next step, you know, or nope, this needs improvement. You know, here, I'm going to give you some, some ideas, some ways to help yourself out here. Um, you know, I'm trying to eliminate all the, all the, uh, points of failure as possible. And, and a lot of times what happens with that's very valuable information. Like, I think people feel like, well, I'm not working with the dog yet. And so I'm not doing any good, but that's not true at all. You're, you're teaching these people how to handle the, you know, the, uh, the dog, you know, the dog who's displaying aggression in front of them. You know, you don't hand somebody a rifle and say, Hey, good luck. You know? So you, you go through a class, you know? Um, so that I, I look at dogs the same way, man, that, you know, they've got a bunch of little knives in their mouth and they're fast and they're strong and, you know, they can do a lot of damage. And if we're not, we're not going to handle them appropriately and we're in trouble. So I run through all those things with them before the dog comes out this way. My chances of staying safe are going up, you know, and I go over distance, uh, you know, how to utilize distance. Um, and so many people, so many clients want you to see what the dog's doing. Cause they feel like if you see it, then you know better and you can help them address it, you know? And, you know, logically that makes complete sense. Hey, look, I'm working on this problem, uh, in, you know, in the code of my, um, my website. Can you look at the code? Yeah. Let me look at the code. Okay. Yeah. Oh yeah. I see what part of the codes broke it. So in the, in the human problem solving process, that's a very logical step when it comes to, to animal behavior, not, that's not the way we want to approach that. You know, like the whole goal obviously is to have the dog not display the behavior. And so I don't need to see what they're dealing with. I trust them.

31:11

You know, and I make sure that I'm, I'm conveying that in this beginning phase too. Like, Hey, look, I trust you that it's real because oftentimes what happens is because I've refined this process over years is that I'll never see the problem. A lot of times I never actually see the dog aggress and they'll be like, I swear to you, he is aggressive. He's bitten. No, I trust me. I get it. I trust you. Like I wouldn't, you know, like I, I don't understand what it is that makes you think I don't. It's just that, you know, I've set this up so that your dog won't do it. And I need you to memorize this ritual because this is what's going to lead you to success with your dog. And, you know, especially if we're not going to be using suppressives, right. Or aversives people call them. Um, you know, like the whole idea behind aversive use and training is to suppress the behavior we don't like, right. Okay. He's, he's acting aggressive. Let's zap, zap, zap. And then we go, okay, cool. He's not acting aggressive anymore. That's not true. He's still sitting there stewing. You know, he just doesn't feel like it's safe to have an outward expression of that anymore. And so, you know, like that's where people kind of get like wrapped up. Clients get wrapped up like he, but he's not displaying it. Yes. That's the whole point. I don't, I don't need to see the rifle shoot a person to know that he can shoot a person. Right. Yeah, exactly. I trust that it works, you know? Yeah. Right. Right. I love that you kind of talked through, you know, how much detail you go into about, okay, the leash and let's test how you hold the leash and stuff like that. And I'd imagine that, you know, just having gone through that process makes the clients take the little details a lot more seriously, right? That they, they, they get that this is suddenly like a really serious, like I'm sure they, most people are like, yeah, I have a dog that bites people. That's pretty serious. But like to actually sit there and go, okay, this is how you hold a leash. And okay, this is how your equipment's supposed to work. And I'd imagine that those, those details kind of start to drive that point home in a slightly different way for a lot of people. But even with that, I'm sure that you still have like there, there, I'm sure you're dealing with some dogs and some people where you just need to have some really hard conversations at some point just to ensure that they, they get the danger levels that you you're potentially talking about here. How do you approach that kind of thing? Yeah. So, uh, I use everything that's been given to me, right?

33:35

Like, so for example, I've had my, I've had two fingers on my right hand torn apart by a dog. And so my, my middle finger nail is mangled and I got this big scar on my pointer finger. And, you know, so like in the beginning of the relationship with them, I design it, you know, I design the relationship with them. I say, Hey, look, you know, I need you to take a look at these fingers. Uh, I can't use this hand the same way anymore. You know, that I used to be able to, this will never grow back. And I have a constant piece of scar tissue that hurts frequently. And that's from a dog bite from a handler. Didn't handle their dog correctly. And, uh, you know, I, I can't get this back. And I let that sit with them so that I understand their brain is in the place of, wow, this is serious. And then I tell them, Hey, look, you know, before any difficult conversations come up, uh, I'm going to tell you things that you're not going to like to hear. And I need to know that that's okay. Are you going to be able to hear those things? And I let that sit. And they always say, yes, you know, they, right away they go, of course. Yeah. That's why I hired you. And I go, great. I just really want to make sure you understand that I'm going to deliver some hard news sometimes. And, you know, that right away takes out all the, the difficult elements down the way, you know, because then I can reference that. I go, Hey, remember when I said I was going to tell you some difficult things? And they go, yeah, I go, okay, this is one of those times. And they, they, they're already prepared for it. It's not a shock, you know? Um, and I, because I also want them to know that I am going to be honest. I'm not going to sugarcoat anything. You know, I'm not, I'm not going to tell them that their dog is good when it's, you know, like good to go visit kids when it's not. Uh, and that's just the way I proactively handle it. You know, I, I don't want it to become a sticking point. Uh, and I think that anything about me that, that people will learn right away is that I am going to be honest with them. I'm going to listen to them, uh, very well. And, you know, I'm going to call them out at times, especially if they're saying things that just don't line up or don't make sense. So I know that your, your PPP class on some of this stuff, um, keeping safe, how to handle aggression cases. It's active. It's running this week. I want to make sure we, we do just talk about that, um, for a minute. So can you share a little bit about it? You know, what do you cover? Who should really consider taking it? Anybody work in aggression cases.

36:10

I think it's going to be very, very helpful for, uh, I did have a couple of questions. People ask like, is this good for shelter workers? It's, it's not, um, it's not specifically like, here's how you get the dog out of the kennel. You know, it's not like that. Um, it's really about how to handle aggression cases. There will be elements of it that are helpful for people in that kind of situation. Um, but it's really, it's, what I did was how can I feed as much information as possible into this timeframe? And, uh, so it's like, okay, here's, here's the beginning process. And I tried to, I try to organize it in such a way that says like, here, here's how you onboard the client. Here's, you know, what you go through process down the way. I explained some tools and protective equipment and how the benefits and downsides of those things. And what I'm hoping happens is that, um, people take this and then in the feedback, they, they want to know more and then it can draw more detail into the feedback video. Um, you know, because there is, it's, it's so much to cover that, uh, it can honestly be built into really large course. And, and some people have done that, but, um, you know, it's, yeah. So I, I, I just basically opened up a fire hose and said, here, here you go. Let's drink some water, you know? Um, but yeah, it's really good though. It's, it's very good. And I organized it in such a way that here's the beginning of the case. Here's the things you need to think of through the process. And, and, uh, you know, by the end, this is what you should be looking at. It's not an address, like it's not going over like how to address aggression. It's how to keep yourself safe. It's how not to get bit. It's all the things you should be doing and thinking about both dog behavior wise and tool wise and approach and communication wise, um, to prevent, you know, medical bills and losing time. And, um, you know, because like so many dog trainers work for themselves and by themselves. And if you sustain a nasty bite, that's it for you. You know, you might be done for months and then what, how are you making money? You know, how are you feeding your, your kids? And, and so it's a very, very serious topic that I think people should invest in. And then I even put in a first aid part in there, uh, cause I think that's important. If you don't know how to treat yourself for injuries or wounds, you need to, there's, that's covered a bit in there. Um, and so, yeah, I, I think it's, it's, hopefully it's a, it's very, very valuable to people.

38:30

So it kind of builds on some of what we talked about here about, um, you know, how you approach clients and dogs and how you handle all that. It kind of walks them through some of that. Yeah, absolutely. What red flags to look for and, you know, how to assess the property before you even go in. And yeah, there's a lot of, a lot of cool stuff put in there. Awesome. Well, um, so I have three questions here that I kind of want to round things out with. And they're the three questions I always kind of ask folks when they're on the podcast for the first time. So, uh, I'm just going to kind of run through them with you, which the first one here is just what's the dog related accomplishment that you're proudest of? That's the dog related accomplishment. I think that for me, what I'm most proud of is to be able to do this full time and rely on nothing but the income generated by myself and my wife in this business. I think that's the most, that's, is that dog related? It's my business, but it's a dog business. So I feel like that's dog related. Uh-huh. Absolutely. Yeah. The next one, uh, what's the best piece of training advice that you've ever heard? Work the dog in front of you. Like not one size doesn't fit all, you know, it's not, every dog's not the same. And even though you might be doing the same B-mod case or the same, you know, same type of B-mod case or the same type of sport, the dog in front of you is different than the other dog you worked, you know? So understand the dog in front of you as best you can before you, you start creating approaches. Who is somebody else in the dog world that you look up to? Oh man, there's a lot. Uh, there is definitely a lot. I think right now I, who I've been listening to the most and learning from the most has been, uh, Roger Brontes, a lot of his information. Um, you know, Denise, uh, is, is amazing and I love learning from her too, but I think right now I'm, I'm big on Roger Brontes' stuff. I haven't heard of him before. Do you know how he spells that last name? Yeah. A-B-R-A-N-T-E-S. Awesome. He's an ethologist. Uh, he's very, very good work. I'll have to look him up. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Michael. It's been great. Yeah. Thank you for having me. I appreciate the opportunity. Absolutely. Absolutely. And thank you to our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week, this time with Kat Warren, author of What the Dog Knows, to talk to her about her upcoming Young Readers edition. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice

41:01

to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Line. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Thank you.