E257: 셰이드 화이트셀(Shade Whitesel) - "장난감 행동 훈련 + 힐워크 셰이핑"

of dabble in french ring a little bit so yeah that's about all excellent so i want to talk about toys and heel work today so um start with the toy stuff i know it's pretty common i think for a lot of sports dogs to have some natural interest in toys but obviously natural interest in toys is not the same thing as being able to kind of play in a way that's cooperative with their handler right so what are some of the common issues we see when looking at toy play um so like dogs with strong feelings about toys or biting you know they often like grab toys and leave they won't give it back you know they run away um or they try to tear tear the toys up you know they're like we call that dissecting where you know you got the beautiful expensive rabbit fur toy on a handle and the dog just like takes it to the ground and rips it up um also dogs get really kind of like some of the issues with the stronger minded dogs are like they might start body slamming you or kind of chewing on you a little bit or like really shoving the toy into you um so those are issues we see kind of on you know we got dogs that like run away or destroy toys and then we have dogs that understand that it's kind of about the person but they're kind of really pushy about trying to get us to play and that can be equally as as problematic and we want to kind of train away from that as well so yeah those are the most common issues so what kind of criteria can we install um for example with fetch uh to make the game more cooperative and maybe even turn the game into something that we can use as a reward when training yeah um so and i i like that you said you know uses a reward because like lots of dogs have toy interest but they're not it might not be um kind of without some structure in it or without a lot of interest we can't really use it as a reinforcement um for our sport behaviors our life behaviors so that's kind of the ultimate goal of this class is not so much to like learn how to play with your dog but kind of learn how to teach your dog how to play with the toys in a way that eventually you can use for reinforcement for teaching behavior skills so um so that's really what the toy class is about um and let's call fetch let's call it chase because what it really is is the opportunity for the dog to chase it's not as much like a formal thing of like fetch that thing you know which usually isn't as reinforcing like the bringing it back part is the hard thing for the dog but the opportunity to chase it is like the exciting thing for the dog so so anyway um as far as like what we want structure wise

the biggest thing we want is for the dog to bring it back and drop it um because we need to get back for another rep you know that's the biggest thing and essentially i want the dog to learn how to push me with that drop push me with the return and by that what i mean is that i don't want to have to like command it um i don't want to like have to coerce it with the sight of another toy or with food i want the dog to eventually understand i spit that toy at you and you um and you throw it again you know so i want the dog to have that concept and if we think about like i think about my childhood or like dogs i've met with training and um dogs that are like you know humans are vending machines you know i just spit the toy at their feet and they throw it again you know we want that type of attitude eventually and when we get that attitude that's when we can really use that for uh training our sport skills so yeah so that's the big thing and also kind of i do want to reiterate because we do use two toys in class our ultimate goal is to get the dog to um drop it at our feet without the sight of the toy that we have and that's kind of a big thing because people are always like oh i i i did that but they're always like luring or prompting the drop with this side of the other toy and so eventually we want that uh the dog doing it by themselves without us kind of prompting it so and that's a kind of integral piece of that uh for the dogs so yeah what about um kind of the other game right so tug what criteria do we kind of want to install there um well again we wanted to bring it back because like a lot of times we're tugging with the dog and then um you know they we let them have it and they leave and a common complaint that i get from students early on is like they're like i don't never want to let the dog have the toy because then they'll leave and um and what they're kind of not knowing is that not letting the dog have the toy actually like makes them more likely to leave when you finally do give them the toy they they need to like do the short little tugging sessions where the dog is like oh i can beat you and get it and then they'll be more confident about bringing it back again but if you always keep it then the dog's like i really can't beat you and so then they want to so we wanted to bring it back um a big thing that um i think that is challenging in class is i actually want with a really kind of the the dogs i mentioned before like one of the issues is like pushing you with the toy and body slamming you um going you know grab it grab it um for those types of dogs uh

we want them to wait we want them to wait for the cue the physical cue of hey put in my hands and now we can play and we want to get um train away from the the body slamming and the pushing us and the jumping and even though eventually we may want to like present our hands at chest uh height and have the dog jump up and put the toy into our hands um we don't want them like throwing their bodies at us with the toy you know until we say okay now's your opportunity to stick it in my hands and so um that can be challenging for like the the more pushy breeds that kind of like to invade your body space um and the reason that i want all these rules uh is that if is i want more thoughtfulness in it like i don't want i i don't want the dog like not thinking and just grabbing or not thinking and just pushing it at us because i find that if we put some kind of operant behavior we put some structure in there um then we can bring that thoughtfulness and that makes the arousal of the dog go down because toys oftentimes make the arousal really uh high for the dogs and so a common complaint is you know my dog can't think with the toys and so that's an issue because i want them to be able to you know heal um and healing if they're not thinking they're like screaming and bumping and all that kind of stuff so um so kind of i find that by putting some structure in it and like making the dog wait for the physical cue to tug or getting them to drop it without the sight of the other toy um all those things put some a little more thoughtfulness in it and they don't take away from the focus and the drive of the dog once you work through this but they they are very helpful to bring the dog's arousal down and have the dog practice uh being really excited and fun and focused and and chasing and tugging and all that excitement but still able to think if if that makes sense um yeah i absolutely yeah so one more thing i want to say too about it is that um i am super focused i don't think everybody's like this and you know we all do things slightly different but i am super focused making sure that the interaction between the handler and the dog with the toy is the key so i don't want it to be about the specific toy um i want it to be about the interaction the dog understanding that we need to make that toy active we need to make that toy go and that is the fun part of it because when we teach in my experience when we teach dogs it's about like a specific toy then they get more into possessing that specific toy uh and that's not useful for us um because we if they want to possess the

toy then we can't get it back for another rep so um so i like to teach it's all about the interaction uh either the chasing of all the toys you know we use the same marker cue chase means chase everything uh not just a frisbee or a ball and tugging tugging with everything so it's more about those actions from the dog rather than specific toys uh hopefully that kind of makes sense absolutely and i think it's um kind of an interesting note to make sure you include it right because ultimately it's more useful for us to have the behavior if it's more generalized and if the value is in interacting with us rather than the item like that's going to make that's going to carry over more for competition that's going to carry over more for like the things we want to do with our dogs other than just the toy play right yes and it's going to actually make the dog realize that they need you and that put brings in that cooperation rather than us kind of trying to get the toy from the dog uh and the dog wanting to possess it because it's about that specific toy um plus it's it's just all about expectations for the dog um i get dogs into class a lot of times that think tugs are for tugging and balls are for chasing and heaven forbid you ask them to tug with a ball on a rope they're just like no balls i i don't tug with that or like if you throw a tug they just can't like they don't understand that you can actually chase a tug you know so um so i really want dogs to understand that it's about the opportunity to do this thing with the handler rather than the specific toy because we we as people get really caught up in our toys you know finding the perfect toy and things like that and uh while definitely we need that as when we're first teaching them i mean we need to find that ideal toy that's hard enough not to chew up and soft enough that the dog will tug with it um you know we it's kind of that goldilocks toy that we're always seeking when we're teaching our young puppies eventually we really need to generalize that behavior and get a dog that um tugs with anything and chases anything and of course everybody's individuals and dogs will have different preferences but as as you're working your way through class we just try to generalize that as much as possible so and that can be challenging with some dogs absolutely so kind of thinking about all of those rules are there prerequisite skills that we need or that can be helpful in teaching toy play things that they need even before they kind of get started

there um i'm not sure i'm answering the question you're actually asking but one of the things that i'm noticing in my um toy class right now is that and i i changed the description of the class to reflect this is that we really need space like if we're gonna do chase we need space for the dog to like run and chase rather than sort of like um try to get the the ball from the wall or like if we're trying to do chase in a in a room inside um you know the the toy will roll under stuff um and for our young dogs that are just learning the the joy of chasing we need enough space so that they can kind of run and discover that moving their body and running is fun uh and then they actually a big contengel part of teaching chase is actually teaching the dog to like catch the toy off the bounce or or swipe it out of the midair and that's exciting and if we can't throw the toy like that then the dog doesn't learn that this is fun if they're like trying to to get the toy off the floor all the time if that makes sense um and then we also so with the space we also need then we need the flooring for the dog to be safe so like and i think this is coming up right now because it's my winter toy class uh and it's snow outside and snow can do bad things to toys you know that's either icy or slippery or the snow covers the toy and then the dog that's no fun for the dog uh or you know the uh the snow itself makes dogs excited and want to run zoomies and so you can't practice you know chase with a dog who's like it's snowing outside you know so i totally understand that we don't have a lot of room but ideally we need a lot of room we need safe footing for our dog to run and turn in uh and i say this even though people are like oh well i just can do tugging because we can kind of do tugging in a smaller area but oftentimes we need at least a bit of the chase game to teach the dog to bring stuff back because if we do tugging which is like really high arousal a lot of times the dogs are like okay oh i win it and then i take it down the ground and dissect so um so we kind of need both places for the dog uh for that so i'm really just noticing that um we do need some physical ability on the handler's part because this is a physical thing for the dog and it can be really physical for the handler so we kind of need that too and then for the dogs um they need to have a confirmation or age that supports being really physical and i'm really as as i get older like this is not something i ever thought about uh nine years

ago when i formed the class but um it is something i think about now our dogs need to have the physical structure uh to make this safe for them uh and so they oftentimes like growing puppies uh have new legs every day you know or they don't have the coordination to chase something so while it's ideal to start this stuff really early on with our puppies you know awesome uh it's actually sometimes for with our larger breeds they don't feel comfortable in their bodies and we can make chase really not reinforcing for them real quick when they kind of splat on their legs and and can't really catch stuff so i feel like we need to have a good body on our dogs and that might mean for the larger breeds they need to be a little bit older uh and then good surfaces good you know good everything on the handler and then some interest in biting and chasing um i'm not the handler or the teacher that is really good at teaching dogs to play that aren't already really driving for the for the toy so we do need to have interest from our dogs and then we take that interest and then we can form the reinforcing part of it and the structure and stuff but um but yeah so the dog needs to have some interest already in chasing things and putting their mouth on toys and stuff like that and that's the easiest uh thing for us to do is then kind of mold and channel that already their interest so yeah yeah so those are kind of our prerequisites and skills need so obviously we're talking about this stuff because the toy class is happening now right yeah you can still sign up um anything else you want to share about what you cover or about who is or isn't appropriate for the class or kind of any other details you think it'd be helpful for people to know um so a lot of times i get people who um okay this class can really help you if you have conflict over items like you have a dog that steals the the thing and leaves or you have trouble switching your dog from toy to toy or you know you have your agility dog that you run the course you give them the ball and they take off um this class can really really help with with teaching and building toy play as a reinforcement and then adding the sports skills back in um using that as a reinforcement so i can totally help with that and i love that uh just kind of to molding that when we have um dogs that are really have big feelings about toys and and kind of getting some structure in there um definitely i can help help with that um and it's fun for me to to help handlers do that so yeah

excellent all right so the other thing you're teaching right now is your class on shaping heel so i wanted to talk a little bit about that too um what are the benefits to shaping heel um so for me um okay first and foremost i'm a very good learner but i am not a good fade the learner person um so that made me go to shaping because i could i didn't have to fade the learner the dog was doing the behavior and i could click okay now now we do have you know it's a little more complicated than that of course but because the dog doesn't just magically get into heel position you click and you know if they did it was accidental and they never do it again um so we've of course got to break it down but um i do think that shaping and making it the dog's idea creates a really pushy and confident dog it really for me and i i know everybody has different ideas but for me the shaping part of it creates a really pushy healer uh a dog that pushes you to heal and and kind of leads the dance rather than us saying hey follow me uh so i really like that my sport likes that um i have the dogs that like that and that's really uh the the attitude for my dog that i get my dogs love healing and i i think that shaping and making it their idea is a big part of that um also um my sport of schutzon is starting to point um what they call tight body language um and so i do think that shaping because we're getting more of the natural behavior of how the dog moves because the dog can't offer something that they don't kind of naturally do uh that i actually think it gets more loose and easy body motions from the dog uh and that can be pointed by your sport or not okay so um so kind of sometimes you got to look at the pluses and minuses of that so that's also what i've noticed that shaping creates um yeah so pushy confident and loose natural body language um is what i think the shaping gets and why i do it that way um yeah yeah so i know that you kind of approach that by breaking it down to all these itty bitty pieces so what are some of those component pieces that you kind of break your work down into well we kind of start i mean we actually i have written on my little notes here that sit is last um and then i'm thinking of the homework i just you know released last week and sit is first um how to sit in a collected straight up and down way is first but we don't add sit to finding heel position till the very last because one of the things so this class that i'm teaching right now is about um it's about stationary heel so it's a it's really about the dog finding heel with no

handler help again the shaping uh how to get to heel and how to rotate all the way to heel without the handler using all the handler help that we want to do or you know we're looking over or we're moving our shoulders or we're kind of moving so the dog gets in the heel we really want to um get away from all that um and then we add sit last so kind of order wise we want value for heel we want hind end movement we want the dog understanding how to move the rear end into correct heel position um for me i want the handler's body language to be different so i don't want them having their sport hand position right away because i want to build a really robust um dog that understands how to get to heel position regardless of hand on the waist or hand outside the head so i kind of want to desensitize hand position and and i teach that in class and then we have to fade that platform and we want to fade the platforms that we've used to get that rear end movement we want to fade those pretty fast because we don't want the cue of hey i get into heel position to be dependent on like the pivot platform or things like that so we want to fade that and after we get all that we want that sit uh so we want all the rotating into correct heel the dog able to get there and then we add that beautiful tuck sit that you've worked on the first week of class back to heel position so yeah so that's kind of it in a nutshell excellent so those are the pieces and that's kind of how you start to put them together yeah anything else that you want to share just about the healing class or who is or isn't a good fit for the class or prereqs or kind of anything else you want to talk about about that yeah well you know like any skill motivated thing um the best dogs are the ones who are motivated like and and especially like um food motivated dogs do really good in skills classes because we can oftentimes get more reps and we can break it down more than like the toy oriented dog so even though i concentrate really hard on getting my own dogs to like toys i do a lot of this imprinting stuff with food because it's just so much easier to get um a lot of reps and to get more thinking um more calmer behavior as we're doing it so so i want them to be motivated because it it's harder to teach dogs that aren't as motivated so the best fit is motivated dogs and for this healing class um it's an advanced class um so it's not a foundation class and even though we're talking about foundations of heel class i do expect people coming in to have some um training language with your dog and uh to have a

history of training with them and a little bit of a knowledge of shaping you don't have to be a perfect shaper um your dog doesn't have to be you know one of the internet stars that are really good at stuff um but i do want people to have at least some experience um in in training and shaping their dogs um and we have a lot of courses at fenzy that support that uh that um you mean heel work isn't the first behavior you should try and teach your new dog it's a hard behavior it's a hard behavior you might not be setting yourself up for success if that's the very first thing you ever try to train we should really we should really start with like go to a mat or you know sit or building grand posters yeah and that is a thing i mean and and kind of you know like i said in in the toy class i want a dog that is like comfortable in its body and the same thing for healing honestly um you know like healing's a hard expensive behavior for dogs um especially the way we want it in sport now we want kind of an unnatural stance and gate for the dog so it's not the easiest thing for the dog and it's not the easiest thing for us handlers to teach because it's incredibly complicated it healing is made up of a lot of moving parts uh and you know i i try very hard to break it down in the class but it really is a complicated behavior and um it's fun it's a fun behavior i don't want to like make people like scared of it but it's definitely um people who do best in class have already have some behaviors on board that the dog already knows um and a training language so uh yeah it's it's much more helpful if if that is is on board before you do the class so yeah excellent all right so to kind of round out our chat for today one last question if we were to kind of drill down all the stuff we've been talking about into um one key piece of information or one key piece that you really want listeners to understand and kind of take away from our conversation um who would that be um i got one for each class so for toys it's build your reinforcement build your spend some time building that toy reinforcement um i see so many people who have drivey dogs that like to grab toys and kind of take that for granted that they can then use that to teach healing and i think it really is smart to take some time to build some structure within your toy game so they can get that toy back and do another rep uh and so i i would just say building a reinforcement is all about what that toy class is about um healing this specific healing class is all about breaking it down uh little by little breaking really um piecing out um

the dog's knowledge and the steps it takes to get a dog that can come in to heal from any angle uh and without that platform and without any handler help so we're really breaking it down um and the thing i want handlers to understand in like the healing class is it's about marking behavior you want and having a really clear idea of what behavior you want rather than marking the behavior that might sort of get there uh so having a clear eye and being able to understand what exactly we want from the dog so like um a good example of that would be as i was doing forums today um we're starting rear end awareness and it was it was awesome everybody was doing so well but we want more movement you know we want the dog to move all the way to heel position and even though we're kind of prompting it learn it a little bit right now we need to mark moving back legs you know we we need to make sure because we want more movement rotating into heel that we're clicking or marking at the moment when the dog is moving those hind legs not stationary hind legs because we want more moving instead of less cocking out at a 30 degree angle that dogs always do you know so um so it's just like sort of understanding those things um and knowing how to communicate that to your dog um are are something that i just wanted to mention so because i'm fresh from working this morning doing all my answering doing all your forums yeah right excellent all right all right well thank you so much for coming on the podcast shade thank you so much and it's always a pleasure and a joy it's fun to chat about all this stuff um and thank you to all our listeners for tuning in we'll be back next week don't miss it if you haven't already subscribe to our podcast in itunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available today's show is brought to you by the fenzy dog sports academy special thanks to denise fenzy for supporting this podcast music provided royalty free by bensound.com the track featured here is called buddy audio editing provided by chris lang thanks again for tuning in and happy training