전문견 훈련사가 되는 법, 출연: 톰 데이비스(Tom Davis) & 마이클 엘리스! 개 훈련 팁과 노하우 🐕

so uh what's what's california like right now uh i assume it's like other places but i don't know for sure uh you guys we're just beginning to start kind of reopening stuff up again a little bit like so they have a whole protocol in place of phases for the reopening so certain businesses are now allowed to reopen with social distancing and masks and limits to the number of people that can be in a certain spot and all that kind of thing disinfecting stuff and um and they're gradually doing it in phases to come back through so i think we'll probably resume some in-person classes at the school in june june but yeah so i'm doing everything online right now so that's good that's good at least you get to do something there's a lot of people that are like completely screwed just oh yeah no it's crazy can't do anything so it's kind of forced changes on us that uh that we were planning anyway so i was planning on offering uh live online versions of lots of our classes and so yeah so how i worked out the technology for that and so i'm doing it yeah yeah just ran the first one so adapt what uh how are so how does that work are you are you just are you doing the everything that you would teach all your curriculum and sessions just just like this online yeah so basically we you know at the school the train the big training room yeah we run all our classes in yeah we've i got good cameras we've got cameras in there so that you can see the whole room from any angle you can zoom in or out that whole thing i have a remote mic and you run it off zoom i have a big screen so i can see oh that's cool these faces and when they ask questions they pop up that's great and then they can do practicals too from their end like so you can watch them yeah so the same thing we just flip it over and they stand up and they run practicals and then we with larger classes we'll have the ability to break out and use the breakout room feature that zoom has i don't know whether you've messed with it much no this is like my third zoom i did i did it do zoom with dogtra and another company and this is my third third zoom i'm usually just on skype or facetime yeah yeah i i the the quality of the image and the sound and stuff i've had zero problems i ran a behavior mod class that was two weeks and i had students from singapore italy spain two from canada and then several around the us and we had zero technical glitches i could see everybody here everybody they could see here me it was great it's kind of scary you're like wait what have i been what have i been what have i been doing all these years i should have just been doing this do the old pajamas on the bottom and uh shirt on top

that's exactly right that's exactly right so it's cool it's very it seems sort of futuristic but it's it's the time is here it's totally doable exactly it's that that's why i was i've been talking to some people in the industry about um how this works and and things like that um and a lot of people are you know forced to adapt luckily for trainers like you and i it's like i've had the online stuff in place too and i've kind of switched it over to um i've gotten an influx in training and i just do an hour con like consulting basically just helping people navigate answering q a type stuff uh really helpful stuff if you're sitting at home wondering what else you know what else to do so it's been it's yeah it's been really good so i was i was lucky to kind of just shift right into it we just got busier but i actually started shutting shutting it down on my end because it was just it was too much you know after like the you know as you know just teaching um after like six the sixth hour you're you're not as present as you should be maybe and and so so yeah i started kind of like pulling back the reins a little bit and i was like wow you know this is this isn't you know this is probably gonna go on for a while especially in new york it's it's not uh you know we have to we have to i'm in upstate so i'm um i'm closer to vermont and canada than i am yeah where are you so i'm in close to saratoga springs um right outside of albany yep yeah i used to i spent a fair amount of time there when we were in new york uh i would run up to train with clubs there was a club right outside albany that i trained with all the time yeah i had a couple of the guys yeah a couple of guys that i trained with uh that i'm friends with like on facebook or something like posted a picture of you training with them in new york um ed meyers do you remember ed meyers oh yeah yeah uh-huh yeah so it was funny he put i'm like wait and then i started kind of digging into some of your some of your older stuff that you actually lived in do you live in new york city right yeah we lived uh my wife carol went to grad school at columbia so we were in in uh new york city for four years while on the uh kind of upper west side right near columbia like 100 that's cool that's cool yeah i remember i'd run around and train all over in the like out on long island another state go out to jersey all that kind of stuff you know that's cool now for just so you know michael like my listeners are everything from dog trainers to dog lovers to people who just stumbled upon a random podcast when they're bored um but predominantly just people who are you know interested in dogs and uh and

getting into dog training and or have dogs and so on and so forth so um why don't you just if you if you could well first question i have really quick i want to rewind before i forget so how does the behavior modification work on your end with the online stuff do are you just going through curriculum or do they actually have a dog that they're yeah so i'm going through curriculum so the way it's set up is we have um i run through kind of my ideas in general about behavior mod now it's a holistic approach and diagnosis of problems and taking histories and um kind of getting to the root of things coming up with a management and obedience plan in combination and then finally dealing with the kind of pathology itself and so um i kind of review a lot of the obedience techniques that are necessary i review management techniques which are hugely important if you're going to be successful with any behavior mod you know breaking this up all those sort of things and then um i have video uh to talk talk body language and things like that and video specific problems and then what would be kind of some uh typical protocols for common behavioral issues right right and we talk about the different types of aggression and separation anxiety and obsessive compulsive disorders and all that kind of stuff right cool so so that's pretty successful then you can go through all the all of the the background stuff and the fundamentals of why these behaviors are are there and that's cool i was just curious so and i'm targeting it towards obviously dog trainers so yeah people are going to be doing it professionally so sections i know we talk about like how you you know get clients to give you honest histories without feeling judged and yeah you know stuff that's necessary you know how you get people to kind of buy into the yeah sometimes that's awesome i wonder that's cool because i was curious i saw that uh and i have there's a lot of information that i wanna i wanna talk to you about i'm really excited thanks for hopping on here i appreciate it um so cool i appreciate it so just so just so you know and then my listeners know there's there's a lot of serendipitous things that that that happen to a lot of different people but there's an interesting story between you and you don't know this but when i so when so when i started getting i've been professionally i started dog walking um and and basically organically started working with all the dogs who couldn't go to doggy daycares and so on and so forth i'm like yeah sure i'll take him whatever you know doing pack walks the the usual suspects if you will and then you know just that one phone

call of helping that one shepherd led to the next and then you get it so on and so forth and then and it just it stumbled on into you know a career and i was just like they're like how are you doing this and you know i think it really triggered for me when i um i was i was working with dogs and and and gaining a little bit more ground than some of the some of the other trainers in the area that i uh additionally uh or originally tried to work with um and because i wasn't a trainer i couldn't whatever so it kind of organically i was pushed to the outskirts because i was young i was like 19 20 years old when i was like really trying to get into it heavy and i'm like i wanted to learn i didn't have any money to like learn you know people wanted you know and i get it i get it so so anyway so i talked to my friend janine lazarus um she's an english she's she's an english um she's from england so she's she's really funny uh she so basically i shadowed her she was in the area and she actually used to do uh brother christopher's uh remote collar classes at the monastery yeah and so so she so we started getting into um you know she's like well if you're gonna do it you know just follow me and she she's funny she's an english lady she's to the point she's she's very assertive she's like you know we probably as americans would think she's rude but she's not she's just like do this and that sucks and you know this doesn't so but but i was just like you know janine i'm having a hard time um you know conceptualizing a lot of the philosophy of dog training i i know how to do it you know and i'm sure you see that as a teacher oh all the time you see a lot of people who are very organically innately gifted with working with animals and there's a lot more to it and we'll talk about that in a little bit about how to make that a business and grow that into a training career but so she gave she said you you gotta watch uh michael ellis and i said well okay where how she's like well you can go to learberg and i said okay what's that you know and i'm like i don't i don't know any of these things you know i pick up poop for a living at you know in my mind you know so anyway so she said no you you you have you have what it takes you know she saw me working with dogs and so so anyway so i started watching your stuff this was a long time ago um and i can still hear ed frawley's voice and that little people yeah that little that little jingle in the beginning yeah so so so anyway so i got into your stuff many many years ago and um it was just a lot of uh and then i and then i kind of started getting into other lyric trainers like forest and

um so on and so forth and then so i was like okay this makes sense and you were like the first person i saw that made dog training to in my opinion the way that i saw it you were the first person that i saw that actually made it look like a career i didn't you know i didn't i didn't see other people that were you know because you had your school and you were teaching i was like you know people are you know i could there's a living out there and i didn't i just was young i didn't know so and and then organically i got into remote color training working with her and then it got into like you know me offering it to clients and then and then i i started to realize the political standpoint of it um and i was like wait what do you mean it's just you know as as a as a professional dog walker at the time you know just working with dogs in general but anyway so long story short uh it was it was interesting because when i went out to so i became friends with forrest probably five years ago we've been tight we talk regularly um and then i went out to learberg uh for a tyler muto uh seminar and it was funny because after watching all your videos at the at the end forrest knows that i was interested in in protection work i like the idea of it i like the i just like getting into it so the decoy work it was interesting to me so he actually said hey do you want to you want to do a little bite work after you know tyler's thing i said yeah sure that would be cool and then he's like well uh why don't you i'll go grab rush and we'll we'll do some and i'm like wait wait rush rush like like like learberg michael alex right yeah it was it was just it was just so like it kind of came full circle so i ended up taking bites from rush and it was just so funny because i i i kind of like i remember just as you said like so many people go through the same process with you of like remembering the old times and i just sat on the computer and watched rush and then i was taking bites from him which was so cool um yeah it just kind of like came full circle and then um forrest was like you know because next time i went to oregon he's like we should go down to michael's school hang out you can meet michael and all that stuff i said yeah that would be awesome that would be cool and um and then we went down and i know that you and forrest hadn't trained in a while together um and he hasn't been he hadn't at the time been training at the school like he had been in the past and so it was kind of cool to be part of like you know two of the people that i kind of watched uh helped me get into the career made me confident in the career and then i kind

of saw you guys kind of reignite your your training uh relationship together and that was that was pretty cool i was really happy when forrest landed out on the west coast and we got to spend time together again so yeah it's been really good so you you hooked yourself to some to the right kind of person he's a he's a super good dude yeah i love forest yeah training chops kind of his ears so yeah and it's good i'm just like you know just listening to him talk and rant once you get them going is always pretty fun so anyway so i just wanted to share that with you that it was a very like yeah it was just a cool story how it kind of all came full circle and uh i think you know i i worked really hard and just you know got my got got myself at the right place at the right time and i'm grateful for uh getting to know you guys and be able to communicate with you guys really cool that's fabulous it's lovely to hear i mean you always it's always nice uh when when people connect with the right people at the right time in their development i'm i'm a big proponent of exposing yourself to lots of different trainers and lots of different ideas and that kind of thing because you don't know when your your growth is going to be ready to receive a certain idea and i know certainly when i was learning about dog training right early on i had people tell me things and show me things that i wasn't prepared to receive at that point in time you know what i mean like i didn't have a place to put it it all made sense it seemed logical but my experience i had no place to put any of that and so it drops away and two years later you're like oh yeah oh that was a good idea that was i know i know why and it's connected yeah and so by kind of um keeping yourself open in that way then you yeah when you when you hit the right person at the right time it can really move your way of thinking forward so it's a it's a lovely thing yeah it was very it was very organic and anyway so i just wanted to share that story with with you and then my listeners as well just because it was like such a full circle thing so for those of you who don't know uh who you are and what you do um just quick you know quickly i don't you don't have to go through your whole your whole uh where you started and stuff like that but um why don't you just tell a little bit about yourself what you do how long you've been training and and things like that really quick yeah so uh i've been training since i was a kid so i i got a german shepherd when i was uh 12 and the parents said i had to train it so i happened to take a class at the local german shepherd dog club of san diego an

obedience class and then i got kind of hooked got involved in in junior showmanship showing dogs and confirmation and got into akc obedience and all this stuff as a kid and had german shepherds all through junior high in high school and so dog training was always kind of a big hobby for me i had no intention of doing it professionally and then when i was 18 or 19 i got connected with a sport club uh with a schutzen club i was at a dog show and saw police and shut some demo at a dog club and i was dog show and i was totally stoked to do that so i went and none of the dogs i had were suitable and i started doing decoy work and so it was a hobby all into college and things like that and um i taught some classes at pet stores to uh you know to make money on the side and like big box stores or local big pet supply warehouse was in those kinds of places that they were in san diego i worked uh a friend had a boarding kennel and i would do part-time inboards for him and stuff like that um at that point in time but really no intentions of making it a profession and uh i got asked by a club that i used to work with that i had gone and trained with if i they had a bunch of new members and asked if i'd come in and kind of show the new members the ropes did a little kind of clinic-y thing for them and i did that and it went relatively well and then here you are somebody referred me to another club and so i did one for another club and at that point in time i was contemplating grad school my wife was was too and i'm they start that started to pick up steam and i wasn't really like setting out to make a career out of it but getting asked to do seminars in the seminars kind of started to expand i had worked with some police departments and next thing you know i was doing seminars around the country full-time and i did that for 13 years basically traveled full-time giving seminars to either dog training clubs professional organizations like service dog organizations police departments you know all that sort of thing and near the end of that time i just couldn't handle the traveling anymore i was traveling between 40 and 45 weeks a year wow 40 some seminars a year and at that point i'm like what do i do i can stop and start a dog training business but i've spent the last 12 or 13 years coaching other dog trainers to be better dog trainers and so of course you're training dogs and in that period of time i took in inboard dogs and gave people lessons and stuff while when that was starting but pretty much i was training trainers full-time so that was the impetus for me to open a school for trainers and that was 10 years ago so

the school's been open for 10 years wow and and i think we just had our 1200 1200 student go through wow that's cool yeah so it's been yeah that's cool cool yeah because i was interested yeah that that's cool because i was because i was going to ask you how you transitioned into so you you basically started off doing club seminars and clubs are usually a group of dog trainers or hobbyists or yeah exactly and then you're like well i've been doing this for so long i might as well just keep doing it and and you got a place and did that in santa rosa and yeah so originally so when i opened the school we were in the east bay and we were just out on the over near what would anybody recommend we were in a little town called fairfield which was over on the east side of the bay near berkeley and that area and then we were there for five years and then carol and i bought a place in sonoma and so we started looking for and we moved we moved into the santa rosa place five years ago okay we bought an old school there yeah it's like it's perfect it's perfect it's like it's so set up for for what you guys do and i remember when when i was out there last time we went out to uh we got lunch and stuff and and then we went uh so are you are you planning on expanding i know that you you're in discussion about potentially doing something like that are you are you still so we have lots of changes afoot expanding uh is yes it's going to expand in that we're going to be able to serve more people so i'm gonna do less um kind of of what i have been doing for the last ten years which is basically stand in front of a class for seven hours a day and talk and train uh so that's getting broken up we're gonna do more hybrid live and online classes yeah so people can take them remotely i have forrest who's now working working for me again which is great and i have a couple of other trainers that are very familiar with what we do and so we're starting to kind of work on options where they're teaching more classes there and a little more focus on our long-term students and then more remote classes for the short term right no that makes sense that's cool so i think we'll we'll wind up serving more students but um um i won't be like teaching live as much as i have been right yeah so you're kind of just stepping away from from you know stan like you said the day-to-day operations of yeah so that i mean for years i taught everything which meant you know basically our classes you you've been there you know what they're like class starts at 10 in the morning and we wind up at 4 30 or 5 in the evening and typically one and two week long classes they're intensive

type classes on specific subjects outside we have a long-term program where students are with us for five months but most students come for a one week or two week long class but pretty typically those are those are full days of me teaching yeah and then everything else that we were doing was happening outside of that so if i did any video projects or i did any online classes and any of that stuff that was happening outside of that as well so my schedule was pretty much shocked you know it was a lot of a lot of hours that's a lot and so it's a lot of work to hit a spot where i want to slow down a little bit on that like last year i started training my own dogs and competing again a little bit and so i've been jocking the schedule to make that kind of stuff happen so um and the this pandemic and the force yeah pause allowed me to push a whole bunch of energy into the online stuff that i've been talking about doing for years i've been talking about it forever and just never get around to it yeah this sort of kind of forced it to make it real and i think it's gonna help we'll actually be able to reach more people yeah for sure with a little less time on my part and um record some of the lectures and stuff like that people can listen to and then my time can be used in a more yeah that's that's a smart idea and that's something that i've always i'm trying to that's why i i'm really big on uh like i'm getting into more of the uh like the zoom stuff and kind of doing like what you're talking about is just setting up a setting up more of like a scalable operation where you're filming maybe one of the classes with some of the students and then you're you're putting it out for purchase so people can can do that and it's more scalable yeah absolutely that's cool and ultimately the mission is to reach as many people as possible with good exactly exactly exactly at the base level and there are lots of people that can't afford or the time and the money to travel to the school like it's a big endeavor for people so we certainly have lots of students that make it work but it's it's it's a big commitment yeah i'm off they need to find places to stay when they're there yeah sort of thing and so um being able to offer more stuff to the general public and and you know kind of just get good training information out there as much as possible yeah no that's that's cool i like that that's a that's a good idea and it saves you too so that way your quality you know over time and and and everybody's getting like what they want from you instead of you know you're basically just copy and pasting that makes sense that's cool um cool so that so that's what you're

doing right now that's the operation uh and that's your that's your goal for the next year or the next two years and that's that i think that'll work out good for you just because like you said this kind of force pandemic has made everybody uh adapt and say okay well now we're doing this and if we were thinking about doing it now we're definitely going to do it excuse me so a couple couple questions i have um that i want to to discuss with you and get you or get your opinion on it and i'm sure that you've covered these topics before um moving forward with technology and and the dog training industry um what's your how do you feel so for me um like i said before i i got into talk about remote collar training or e-collar training i i got into it very organically i basically my saint bernard which is over here he's one of my pets um he played chicken with a train one day and i it was just a really tough thing i basically had to make the decision to either run and risk my own life to get him off or watch him you know get it by the train really dark but anyway it taught me a big lesson moved me towards how can i train my dog off leash and i literally asked my friend janine and she's been doing e-collar training and so i got into it um and then like i said before it wasn't until i started asking my clients if they were interested into remote collar training that i found the political side to you know i i think the i think it's ignorance probably is a good is a good way to put it um so the e-collar band is happening in in more countries now than than before um what is i'm just interested in in your standpoint because of how how involved you are in the dog training world and how much you've been doing it how much knowledge you have in it and i just want to give you my standpoint on it just really quick and then i and then you can reflect on what what i have to say because i think like for me i've changed my opinion so many different times where before i was like so mad about it i'm like this is this is just crazy i just don't understand you know but then i started kind of thinking i said well well maybe it might be better in some places because people really don't have the tools knowledge or accessibility to use maybe when i said and i started taking a step back and i think that that's part of being a dog trainer is constantly evolving and shifting um so anyway so i'm kind of like in limbo i'm like maybe some places are better off without them and then other places aren't what's your can you can you give me your opinion on on that yeah i i think i think it's a it's an incredibly valuable tool if it's used correctly and the the reason

that we see tool bands in general is because twofold one people don't understand their use and they don't understand good dog training and um there is a psychological um aversion to the use of electronics and as a form of punishment people just think of getting shocked people are very i think on an atavistic level very um sensitive to that like people touch something and shock you people get really edgy about that they find it very um uh psychologically scary in the sense a little bit so they're projecting that they don't kind of they don't know what the stimulation feels like they don't all that stuff so if you're talking to people that don't know anything about the tool then you say shot caller you say these things and people have ideas about people shocking dogs and and so there's a psychological aspect that allow people to go that tool seems like it shouldn't be used right and people don't understand its use either and there's a long history of people using it poorly right so you can go out there and people can drop videos of people using the absolutely poorly and that tool because people are a little bit resistant to its use in general because people are like oh i don't want to shock my dog or anything then people only want to bust it out when there's a problem exactly look at it like it's the largest stick you know okay exhausted all other possibilities now it's time for the e-collar which is absolutely the wrong way to approach its use yes yeah it's not going to fix a problem of communication it's not going to fix a problem of timing it's not going to none of the rest of these things it's a tool like any other and it's subject to all the same laws and so for me i'm obviously a huge proponent of educating everyone on all the possible aspects of dog training and all that possible aspects of all the various tools that we might use and the good things about them and the things you need to watch out for and that takes time it takes energy it takes people committing to that process and and so i think because the tool has is easy to abuse if you're not paying attention um then it lends energy to the people that want to ban it that people out there are people out there that i mean we all know the the divide in the dog training world which you know a huge part of what i'm trying to do is get those groups to talk to each other and understand each other but i think a lot of that is from a lack of experience or the wrong kind of experience with the tool i mean i think everybody that's seen them used properly and appropriately recognizes their value yeah that many dogs they improved and so for me all those things come together and it's

all about education uh the whole thing's about education yeah should the tools any of the tools for dog training um uh be used in a knee-jerk fashion no none of them should right there should be a thoughtful plan for all of that and and so i get the idea that you would want people to you know have to demonstrate some kind of like they are in certain places where they're wanting the idea that you would you know license people to right to feed them or things like that's it's it's a it's a hard world to navigate but i think i i get the impulse yeah i understand yeah i have that sometimes like don't use this until you understand timing and you should be able to demonstrate certain proficiency the problem is that that's hard to apply in a large way so i think our job is not to kind of vilify any of the tools it's to get out there and educate people about their proper use and they do get used in the wrong situations and they get used the right way a lot too but yeah so yeah i think it's i think it's good what you said in the beginning i recently had a post that i that i did um because a lot of my clients are are really um what i often find dog owners do is they say i don't want to have to use the e-collar and for me i'm like that's like saying like i don't want to have to like break out this really nice bottle of wine but i will if i have to it's like really like that you know so for me i i've exactly like you said like it's it's something that people like don't want to reach for necessarily and for me i'm doing the best i can to wrap my head i think being i think i'm trying to and again i'm trying to be devil's advocate glass half full um being super empathetic to the ignorance that is there because i think that like you said i think that that's what it's all about is people just having no idea of what it is now versus what it was and how it's being used in the variations of stimulation and and levels i like go ahead and i think for me that part of the the thing you have to worry about like so that there are people that don't want to use dollar because of the way they think about it they don't want to use a remote collar because of the way they think about it like oh that's mean to my dog kind of thing and that's not that that's the wrong way to think about it certainly like and that's certainly not the case if it's used properly yeah um not that there aren't places where you're using it in a way that's unpleasant for the dog for sure there are situations in which that is necessary there are emergency situations and things in which that's necessary but the idea that um it's somehow bad to the dog to mean to the dog

right that that's a misconception that if it's used properly what i see on the other end like when people people get dog trainers get really enamored with it too yeah and so you want to use it for everything even things that you wouldn't technically have to use the collar for right yeah i've been there and when people get that enamored with that tool you can become reliant on it and it is a piece of technology right and so if it's not applied properly not only could you can make a dog that's not responsive without the collar really easily and then if collard doesn't work you have one that malfunctions or your your dog's run over by the train anyway right exactly so there's ways to use it properly and if you want to have your dog be responsive without the collar too it's a more involved longer training process to do correctly to make sure that the tool is there to reinforce your training but the dog doesn't become reliant on that tool right so there are things that people need to navigate i think that's important yeah but you're spot on the people that are like i don't want to have to use the call that where meaning they don't want to they think they're being mean to the dog and they don't want to happen to them yeah which is a misconception yeah and i and i've just been and i'm guilty of of if a lot of that because i'm just so like enthusiastically passionate about like i'm over the top sometimes you know and expect and using my platform on on social media um you know on youtube you know same thing with you if you watch the video of training that you did five years ago six years ago you big you know my my my process has changed a little bit but anyway so i used to i used to just be so like you said enamored with just like people like you can use it for all these different things and like that you get caught up where you're like somebody like myself a new a newer balanced dog trainer 10 years ago i was just like the e-collar you can use for everything like let's just just trust me and i was so i was so trying to get people over the fact of how how it doesn't shock your dog you know i i just try to use it for every application that i that i could be that i thought of my head as creatively as i could of you know using it as a marker and using it as an association and and just just i'm trying to get creative and and turn the wheel a different way and just and try to and mainly it was mainly because i was so frustrated with dog owners um shying away from it it was very it hurt it almost hurt my feelings i was like i want you to understand so bad that i'll i'll you know do do a circus to try to get you over that

over that line um which leads me to like another conversation too is is how how do you how do you approach situations and i'm sure being on the level that you're at in in the seminars in the in the the crowds that you draw if it's 10 or 100 how how do you deal with somebody who just won't accept new information because of a because of an opinion on a you know a one-dimensional um thought process um i i know it's a layered question but no no so i what i my goal is to present the information that i know from my personal experience and from science to the best of my ability and then respect people's ability to make their own decisions about that and their dogs got trained uh for many years without electronic collars for many years without treats for many years so there are methods out there and approaches out there i think there are benefits in certain circumstances that that where the e-collar works better and is the kinder option in certain cases but there are other but there are other approaches and so if somebody is really resistant i'm not on me to judge their their stance on it and as long as i've done my best to give them what i consider to be the best available information at that point i do my job there and then if they're still resistant my next job is to just try to supply them with alternatives yeah and so better than uh if emotionally or whatever reason for whatever your st you're at the stand the point where you take the stance you are and you don't want to use that child cool then all right yeah i've given you what i why i think it's it's the right tool for this situation or it might help in this situation and i give you the best science i can give you and now okay here's some alternatives here's the other ways i know of thinking about approaching that problem yeah i think now like in dog training people have a tendency to specialize right so the rewards clicker trainers are really in their niche and the e-collar trainers getting in their niche and so it's easy to kind of disregard other branches of the training world and i would encourage anybody that that has an interest in training and certainly anybody that's doing this professionally to get out there and and dip your toes in all those waters because then you'll have solutions for those people because you're going to run into people that you won't be able to help if yeah if they won't use the tool and maybe you can use one of the alternatives so that's kind of how i approach it yeah yeah no that's good yeah that's good that makes sense have you ever had anybody go go through your school that tried to just because you said 1200 students right is that what you said

1200 individual students yeah that's a lot have you ever have you ever had anybody uh go through your school trying to just just push against what you're doing i'm just curious if you've ever had anybody okay i've had lots of people like that at seminars yeah like i did when i did seminars because go do one and two and three-day seminars all over the place and so you all well you'd get a really resistant person at a seminar but pretty typically if somebody comes to the school they've done their research they yeah they like they like the way we think about dog training yeah you don't just casually pop into the school it's not like oh hey yeah i just thought i'd pop in on your class right they're a pretty good big commitment for people in terms of time and energy and so they've usually done their research so not really they're people there that like it turned out to be different than they thought and things like that but they're yeah nobody that's strongly resistant but i we used to get those kinds of people at seminars all the time at the back of their arms crossing yeah i in the early stages of my training uh giving seminars and things like that that i was that would make me a little uncomfortable would rattle me a little bit i still did my thing but it would rattle me a little bit as i got along i i loved those people like i looked at as a challenge you're a teacher ultimately like if you're if you're helping people with dog training you're a teacher right and so i like how do i reach this person yeah because i know uh the information i have to give them is is useful for them and they don't have to take it all but there's stuff in here that's going to help them and it's going to be useful to them and i just have to get them in the place they can receive for me and so i always looked at those people as as uh yeah as a little bit of a challenge challenge yeah it's seminar about talking to that person yeah in a non-overt way but yeah i've done that i've done that before too if i if if i feel uh well you you'll get the husband like not not at seminars but like you know in private training where they're like for sure no and then i'm i'm talking to him as i'm talking to her exactly right and it's it's so and and again it's just like you know as as dog trainers i think that there's a there's a level of passion for the animal i think that that's where it starts and then it kind of builds on top of that as far as a career and different paths but it's tough because you care so much and you know in the back of your head that what you're trying to apply or the the the things that you're trying to do with the dog ultimately i mean

is going to to benefit the dog and the individual that hired you is also arguing with you it becomes kind of kind of tricky 100 and you have to and you have to be patient with people because you've spent a significant amount of time developing an expertise and working at this right yeah and that doesn't happen overnight like you weren't able to process and certain ideas at a certain point either and you're talking about you're 19 and you're dog walking right your instincts you're feeling things you're starting to know some things but what you don't know far outweighs what you know right and so i always look to newbies that same way like there are people there that are going to be resistant because it doesn't jive with the rest of their experience yeah so i have to be patient with them while i bring them along and what they need to know to accept this idea may be built on a whole bunch of other building blocks that they haven't been supplied yet yeah sometimes way back to basic basic learning stuff and that kind of thing in an attempt to get them to the point where they can receive what they need to receive right well i think what you said in the beginning was good about uh and i and i'm still i'm still in that level i'm at that level where i'm getting information that i know is good but i don't know where to stick it i'm like you know some talking to like somebody like forrest where there's a lot of this stuff going on with obedience and i'm like uh if there's a you know because i'm more of a behavior mod guy i'm like if there's a problem that's what gives me goosebumps that's what i'm like let me in like the dog's trying to kill people let me in and then you know but getting the information about you know competitive obedience and and you know different rings i love i love everything with dogs and i like in taking it but i don't know where to compartmentalize it i'm like this is important but i don't know where to put it and i think that that was a really good way to to look at it and i think that that's that's true because that happens you take that information in you don't really know where to put it um but so michael like you taken you know 1200 1200 1200 dog trainers um where do you think taking a step back and like overall looking at the bigger picture of the dog training industry where do you think it's going because i think in the last i don't know just it's hard for me to say because i've i've i haven't been in it long enough to take a big look back and see the development of where it's come from where it's at but it seems to me that it's becoming because of i think a couple different things social media

um creating an instagram account and just um fido's doggy boot camp professional dog trainer behaviorist boom i'm there i am you know ordering business cards and um you know it is what it is um but anyway so it kind of just seems with with social media and people having a love because they love dogs and and business is being created and there's a time and a place for that i think you know on a very micro level of doing basic obedience i think it's pretty much harmless for the most part but what i'm what i'm more like i want your opinion on taking a step back and seeing the development of dog training and where do you think it's where do you think it's headed yeah so it brings up a whole bunch of interesting thoughts and questions in there so one i think that the trends in dog training mirror the trends in society at large right yeah the ideas about dog training began to evolve as ideas about child rearing did as well you know uh some of the the reward based revolution that began to take place in the 80s right is when it really started to take off in later 80s especially and into the early 90s is when things started to hit before that people weren't doing rewards and dog training to speak of and and so that was also mirroring a time in society we're talk people are talking about hey don't spank your kids and you know okay ways of thinking about behavior and all that kind of stuff right and so i think that a lot of the trends and ideas there follow along and so people get really enamored with one idea they take it kind of to its logical extreme and then they realize ooh you know some things that we were doing before were better than these and it starts to find its way back right and it has little swings like that and i think it'll continue to chase those things as people try to find the best combination of all the new information that we get to do the best job for the dogs and so it's always kind of adjusting a little bit based on on kind of society's ideas ultimately um it should be about what's best for the dog in front of you right right but it's also not just that simple for people that are doing it professionally they have to be able to get somebody else on board right they have to be able to get on board for their protocols and that means selling it to them in some fashion even if you like i don't like to call it but you have to convince them that what you're talking about is the right way to do it right and the trends in society the way people look at those things affect people's ability to do that so i think that it's swinging around and it's trying to find its equilibrium i think we were we were way too aversive at one point

now we've went the other direction too much and now they were trying people lots of people out there trying to find the right balance and the balance is a different place for different dogs and so there isn't a sweet spot is what sweet spot for one dog isn't for the other and all that kind of stuff that we know um social media and the internet uh is a double-edged sword right yeah so it allows the free exchange of ideas in a really easy way information is available to people that certainly wasn't when i started dog training right if you were to learn it you could go get books you would go to the library yeah and that kind of stuff but you were not getting the same kind of information you can just go on the computer and see video examples of all kinds of stuff right so the amount of information that's accessible to more people in the industry and to the lay person is astronomically higher but the double-edged sword part is they have to wade through what's good and bad because there's so much crap out there like that's and there's so many that you alluded to it instant experts all somebody can do is if they're good if they're good social media influencers they can take some nice pictures and videos and yeah you know they can be giving lots of people advice when they may not really have giving good advice and people have to kind of wade through the people that really kind of know what they're doing and know what they're talking about and don't and that gets harder when you don't have the same kind of personal access to people right you see what they want you to see yeah when i started you went out and you saw people in person working with their dogs and you and after a few rounds i could tell whether somebody knew what they were doing or not because i could watch them with their dogs yep if it's over the internet somebody can take the perfect clips and throw them on here and you don't know what they know and you don't know what happens when they're not doing it so there are parts about it that i think are great in parts about it that are a little bit of a problem also without going too far down the rabbit hole i think we live in a society where um instant gratification is a huge part of what we do people want what they want now they want to get i want to be a professional trainer tomorrow and it takes years years and years to get really good at anything it doesn't matter what it is you want to be a plumber you can go to plumbing school are you an expert plumber when you get out plumbing school hell no right 20 years down the road now you're an expert plumber you know every little problem you know the you've seen it all right that point and

that's when you're expert and no matter what there is no substitute for that but there is there feels like there's a lot of trainers out there that are in too big a hurry like enjoy the process like it's dog training is fascinating it'll never be more endlessly interesting and enjoy the growth let it happen the way it's supposed to happen like you can have ideas and you can understand i can explain something to you and that makes sense to you and you can turn around and tell somebody else the same thing but that doesn't mean you've done it 50 times and you know in your body what it's like right just with life experience and so i think just kind of coaching people into like take it a step at a time it's going to take you a while to get very good at this yeah and don't put the car before the horse a little bit i'm telling students all the time like hey don't worry as much about your your business cards and the van wrap and stuff right now figure out what you're doing that stuff will take care of itself i don't know a single dog trainer that hat that's good at what they do that doesn't have more business than they can stand right they can't keep up with it if they're if they are truly qualified but everybody's looking at way angles to sell what they're doing in the beginning yeah slow down that get good at what you're doing and then the other parts will take care of itself but anyway yeah no no no that's it my soapbox no no no it's good it's good i love that and that's they know that's the beauty of the of the podcast it's it's it's it's very informal and i love that and that's true and and um and i and i get that question often very often and we'll talk about that in a minute of um how to build um how to how to i remember i did this seminar in la um and i actually it was i did it for free i did it for um i did it for a uh raising money basically yeah for shelter dogs yeah and so um i remember this one guy came up to me and he said hey man uh how do you how do you get to travel how do you and i had a i had a video guy with me to record my my sessions and you know to to to to put it out and um and i said i i said i don't i don't understand i don't understand the question he's like well how do you get to a point where your people are are flying new places and and you can go places and people will tend to know who you are and i was just kind of taken back i'm like that you can't pay for that i said and and i started kind of thinking about it i'm like people i think people think that there's this secret that all of a sudden you just hit the right key on the right board and poof you're like and and it kind of

it made me put things into perspective that i think that that's what it comes down to is is dog training and actually you and i had this conversation um at the uh the mexican place across the street um we had a conversation about uh we were i was talking about um because i'm sure you you get this too and we we had this conversation about production companies and tv and the amount of the amount of inquiries i get of like hey we want you to be involved in this next big hit tv show and you're like we had this conversation about actually dog training is actually pretty damn boring if if it's good um and you gotta exactly and you got slowly yeah i remember we had this conversation because you you you had a friend um that was in tv and you're like really and they asked you to do it and you're like it's not it's really not as as glamorous so anyway so that that's something that kind of clicked with me that um going back to social media and things like that that it you gotta the proof is in the pudding you have to and for me like uh there's there's i i started putting content out on on youtube um because i wanted two things i i thought that some of the basic stuff that i was teaching people how to put colors on right um so on and so forth uh little tiny stuff micro stuff could help people the macro for me at the time and still is but now it's it's being overtaken is i wanted feedback because i i i wanted i wanted to work with other people i wanted to get information out for feedback and mirror and i didn't and i was i i didn't i didn't know um anything about youtube and how it was gonna grow to where it's at now um but anyway so so anyway so it's just like one of those things that i think having like you said like going out and you just have to put them put the time in and for me now that i deal with like really aggre like so when i when i do a title on on on youtube here's what i do is if i have a dog that comes in that's barking at me habitually barking showing t uh showing teeth as they bark but not showing teeth separately um i'll say aggressive blank so german shepherd pitbull whatever um blah blah blah and the reason i do that and i get for it sometimes because people like that dog's not aggressive i'm like i i know that but the people who are who don't know dogs who are searching because they have the same issues are saying my dog's aggressive when it's a very fear-based um genetical uh not confident very vocalization type barking and and so anyway so there's there's just an interesting chemistry that that happens when you you put stuff out on the the interweb um but what i started doing is i started i started doing almost live

sessions where dogs would come in um some of them very rarely were they actually aggressive very rarely do they actually back up what they mean and and in display and normally uncommon yes exactly and in my opinion in my um experience the dogs who were serious never were vocal they just went in they were like i'm i want a piece of you or the other dog and if they were if really truly aggressive dogs were that common then we'd have a lot more dog legislation we wouldn't have people wouldn't have dogs yes like the truth of the matter is if you figure like half the households in the country have dogs yes yes if if they were if there was a 10 of them were really actually truly seriously you aggressive dogs anymore exactly no it's a good it's a good point and and so anyway so going back to what that guy was saying in life i just said man you go you got to just put put yourself out there i mean if you're like you said if if if you believe in what you're doing is purposeful and meaningful could help an individual on the other side of the world that's desperate and needs help and they can watch a video of you putting on you know instead of getting a 3.2 prong caller hanging down to their neck getting a 2.25 that sits properly can change their life on a walk then put that content out as long as you're confident with it and so anyway i guess i was just getting into a lot of people are in that instant gratification of i want to be this i want to be that and it's like then put yourself out there there's not many if you look at dog training um in scenario-based situations there's more there's way way way way way more talented dog trainers out there than i think people realize however there's there's not a lot of people who are good teachers and are able to teach humans how to take that information in and make it digestible and understandable i tell that to people all the time that email me and they say i want to get into dog training but uh and i always tell them like there's a lot of people who are really great with animals but there's you have to be able to do a little bit of both of being a good teacher a hundred percent you do like that's people are a lot of people are attracted to dog training because they uh they're uncomfortable with people yeah anxious and yeah that's a good point they don't like dealing with people and like the dogs like they can have these relationships without yeah i just didn't see so there are lots of people that are drawn to this unfortunately if you're going to make a living at it there are very few options for people to make a living where you just work with the dogs and you don't have to deal with

the other 100 so and it's and you will realize very quickly that your success yes by how well you reach the person yes on the other end of the leash yes and people like it like those people like inboards but it doesn't matter you take a dog in you can do the best job in the world if you can't communicate to those people when it goes back and you can't get them on board and you can't get them enthusiastic about working with the dog it's going to go away yeah like there's no magic bullet it's not going to last you don't have to for six weeks and then there you go or yeah yeah that transfer that trend it's all about your human interaction it's huge and and i say that all the time to to my my staff i say you know we're really not in the dog business guys we're in the people business and and like i said if you can be a better communicator and kind of a less less talented dog trainer and have more success because of your ability to communicate to to individuals and to people and i think a lot of people struggle with that that conversion i would call it a conversion i don't know it just popped in my head that people need to be able to convert that to the owners and educated and of course it depends on your your niche too exactly finding their things so like obviously if you're training police dogs and things like that then at a certain this point you have to have a certain level of skill like otherwise your product is not gonna get you and you're gonna be out of business right yeah so pet dog training uh lots of people that are not doing super great training can still make a living because they're dealing with people that don't know what they're doing right it's better than nothing and yeah so you look like a genius because the people you're talking to don't know anything about dogs so there's there's these gradients as you move up through the the different levels of training where things get more involved and the actual skill of a trainer you don't have to be a super skilled trainer to if you have good if you're a good teacher to help somebody with their dog right so you don't have to be a high high level sport trainer high level obedience trainer you don't have to train tracking dogs not a very complex difficult dog training behaviors don't need to be on your plate if you are good with people and you get them on board you know the basics then you can help somebody with their dog right yep and so kind of knowing your niche too yeah that's that's what i was gonna i was gonna get into um and i know that we're uh you know i know that we're about an hour so i wanna i wanna cover just a couple more things with you um

it's a great great point that you were talking about and that's what i recently started getting into as a as i'm evolving and and people are asking me for advice on on their career which i feel a little um i don't know i don't know how i feel about it because like i said like you just gotta do it just if if if you feel like just put it out there i mean just just do it i mean if you're doing a good job then and a lot of people just aren't um you know not necessarily on the internet just in general like showing people and and whatever but i tell people to find your because the dog training uh industry is such a big bubble and two things that i talk about a lot about um primarily with my um my clients my pet clients because that's all i really do is dog training is such a big bubble and what happens most often times unfortunately for the dog is when you bring your dog to a dog trainer and they're just a dog training company say a franchise or something like that and yeah they do dog training but you they don't do a certain type of dog training so if you need a behavior modification or if you're working with a dog that is just way out of your comfort zone and i think oftentimes too the the comfort zone gets mixed up with um levels of ability or or importance i think people think if they do basic obedience or they do puppy uh foundational training that it's not as cool or not as not as not as good as as behavior modification and i'm like what are you talking about that's this it's your it's two different things it's you know pasta over potatoes man it's the important part like if if more people were good at that yeah the behavior odd people would be out of work exactly exactly so if if you could get good basic training information to people from the beginning yeah puppy dogs starting out and understand behavior and under all that stuff and it was getting mass consumed we would have way fewer behavior problems right stuff winds up as emergency behavior mod problems are because somebody missed the boat we talk you know there's a difference between raising a dog to prevent a problem and then dealing with a problem that's established in an older dog they're very different yeah right so it no it's totally valuable for sure yeah 100 so for for a new dog trainer or somebody who and and i and i feel like the market like we we've talked about just it's very saturated and i think that the the turnover or the transfer from people loving dogs i think there's a significant difference between a doc as you probably know as well and you talk about is a dog lover and a professional or like two like two different things um so what what advice would you give

and i'm um you know and this is something that like you know my listeners are going to benefit the most from what advice would you give for somebody who is either looking to get into dog training or their novice um five years or less and they're trying to find their way of um what they want to do what what advice would you give that person um so one and you have to learn if you don't to enjoy the the day-to-day process dog training is a process driven thing and good dog training is small incremental undramatic change right ultimately it happens before you show up every day and it's boring right well it's i it's not boring there's lots of things that in there that are beautiful yeah there are little things that happen over time when you show up and you're consistent and you really learn how the process works right but you have to enjoy that day to day like if you're all about the end result like then you're going to be unhappy as a dog trainer because you spend a small amount of time there at the goal spot or okay this dog's finished it's good and you spend a lot of time in process and so the day-to-day aspects of that you have to like that right you have to like showing up you have to like the going through things in small steps you have to like repetition right it's all about repetition and consistency and communication so learn to like that part of it learn what it really is to do good dog training so obviously learn your craft right and don't be in a hurry in the initial stages to get your business up and running like take your time with that like businesses built fast are usually built on an inadequate foundation and people are going to see through that and you're going to alienate people because you're going to wind up having taking on clients and situations that you probably shouldn't because you move faster than you should have so if you and if you enjoy the process then it doesn't matter that it takes you longer to get there and a business that's built slowly on experience and knowledge and somebody that really enjoys the day-to-day aspects of handling a dog and teaching people and watching people make breakthroughs with their dogs you'll have a lasting business and you can make a really good living at dog training like you really can but if you try to blast dude that do that quickly and if you overly romanticize what dog training is on its base level yes you're spending a lot of times with dogs but it's it's the grind of animal husbandry that is taking care of them every day doing that thing and so one i would say expose yourself to as many good trainers as you possibly can join clubs do any of that kind of stuff

where you can put yourself around other trainers you pick up little stuff along the way these days there's more educational material than ever available to people avail yourself of that get out there try that stuff and then do it like you said you've got to get out there and do it every day like you got to put your hands on dogs borrow your friends dogs while you're trying to get it like hey let me like dog walking is a great way of getting into dog training i know many dog trainers that came into it that way that's your chance to put your hands on lots of dogs and so while you're learning your craft you're gonna need to find ways to be able to handle a lot of different dogs because you training one dog you you got a dog you did a good job you're not a dog trainer yet like you did a good job one dog that doesn't mean you you know the nuances and your next dog could be really different and so as much as that process is possible commit yourself to the journey of that and if you like the journey the day-to-day part then you'll like dog training you're one of those people that want to solve problems be done tomorrow and do things fast and look for quick fixes and that you're not going to enjoy yeah documenting as a cursor it's not it's not for you and and let your built you had mentioned the term multiple times and you started this idea of kind of an organic move through the process get into it experience it try as many dogs as you can expose yourself to as many different aspects of draining as you possibly can and something will start to speak to you you'll find your groove like hey this really appeals to me and some of the things that appeal to people it takes longer to develop a reputation and get there but you're doing something that you that really appeals to you which makes it easier to put in the day-to-day time if you're like you know i really don't like working with this kind of the dog but i should because it's my job you're not going to put in the time because you don't like going to work every day isn't fun at that point so there's some aspect of of that that you have to enjoy uh the day-to-day and so find the part of dog training that appeals to you like i have a woman that that um took a lot of classes and she loves the puppy stuff right she loves early foundation work like crazy and every good dog trainer would love to have a business where they like got people from the beginning and from the ground up but she has realized that about herself she said like this is what i'm best at this is what i really love and it took her five years to get her business to the point where she she had a second job she was doing other

stuff it took her five years to get to the point where she had a business that was supporting her that was doing just that but she she did she got really good at her niche and she had all these different creative classes for puppies because that was a sweet spot right and it takes time to develop that and so don't be in too big in a hurry yeah no that's that's great information and one thing one thing too for the for the listeners and uh if we end up putting this um up on video form too is one very underestimated very easy thing to get into to learn about dogs is doggie daycares that's how i that was my second step i did dog walking and then i got into doggy daycares and i have a doggie daycare and um i just did a video on it uh yesterday and and i tell people like if you really want to know dogs and you really want to watch them interact with each other and learn from each other and how they communicate go spend a half you know for me it was like a couple years just with different dogs in in and out different pack dynamics on different days just putting your hands on that many dogs and really watching them and studying them i did a lot of stuff with wolves too in colorado i did a lot of stuff with them watching and studying and interacting with them and that's one thing that people can do and i tell people all the time like find a local daycare and and do it do it for free just say hey i just i'm trying to learn um it you know you don't even have to get paid just say do you mind if i come in and do some part-time hours and you don't have to pay me i just would like to you know because the most of most of donkey dick again like when we talk about the glamour of of the dog industry most of doggy daycare is picking up poop making sure dogs don't hump each other and fight that's it that's it it's really just separating and but if if you watch and you learn it's a great way for seven hours a day and just watching dogs when they get tired when they get mad when they get possessive when they get jealous when they get um all of that and it's it's great that's that's the other thing how do you feel about how do you feel about um dog training certifications like online and the many levels of those i understand them like i understand the the goal for that and mostly their value is as a marketing tool for the most part so that you can tell people that you've been through some process yes it's a little like going to college or going to school it's the same thing it basically says you you you jump some minimum level of hurdles and so if somebody's trying to weed through trainers you can say hey look i i've educated myself in some way which

might make someone that's sitting the fence about you uh decide to hire you in that case yeah but of course that like they all have their own kind of agendas and so i wouldn't want to tie myself to one specifically right meaning i wouldn't want to say oh apdt or whatever their certifications are i'm just tossing them out they have a an idea of what good dog training is and so you're going to learn their part of it right and they're going to say you've done the minimum level yeah little like titling dogs and so it's a it's a good stepping off point it doesn't hurt you in any way but don't box yourself in either yeah i mean expose yourself to other methodologies and other other training ideas uh get out there and then for the people that are looking for trainers don't just look at the certification and say that that that says anything about the person's ability because there are lots of people that get certifications and do those sorts of things that yeah not good they're doing in any way so it's just a base level of things for people and for from a dog trainer's perspective yeah i think probably most people should go through some certification because it'll help you a little bit definitely to say you're you're doing your continuing education yeah i get a lot of uh i'm one of the abc mentors which is cool because i have an opportunity to actually help people get their hands on dogs where they're like you know i'm like you can't go and flip through your book once a dog starts to try to you know bite you or whatever i said you gotta so but but you're right i do deal with some people that are just like looking for something to do because they're retired or you know they're financially stable in other aspects and they just want to do it for fun and i wouldn't let them walk a hermit crab of mine because they just they don't they don't know yet and that's just because they don't know yet so i just wanted to get your opinion i think from a training perspective it's fine it's good it's not going to hurt right i heard anything and it might help you in certain circumstances from a uh somebody looking to purchase services yeah and there's other stuff you should look at you would want to see i like for me the the gauge uh of someone's training ability is watching them with their own dogs yes right yes ultimate that that that's the proof is in the pudding like if i can i can watch you with your dog for 10 minutes and i'll know if you're doing good dog training or not doing good dog training right really quickly um and so uh there there's other things that the the person that's buying dog training should do to research the people that they're

yeah it's a good point operating from besides just saying oh they got certified by ex organization right yeah that's a bare minimum that you want us yeah and i think it i think it comes down to as as the time goes on like you said not only in the marketing standpoint from the dog trainer but companies are just like hey we're gonna start certifying dogs because the dog industry is getting big and there's money to be made and i think it's just like they're read this book read that book okay you're good i had um somebody asked me the other day about this you know what type of certifications i say well i don't really have any but um i helped certify other dog trainers i said but i don't have one i said it's kind of an it's an awkward thing but uh you know because of my experience and my my um my work i've done before i've you know i've been able to do things like that for different colleges and it's a weird weird thing i think it's it's frustrating for for uh new trainers too because they're do i spend all and i tell people like don't if you're really like pinched on money go work for somebody for free just say hey i'm i'm new i want to i want to help out can i watch can i shadow can i i think that's the best thing to do yeah certainly if you as long as you connect yourself to the right person and they're willing to yeah exactly yeah careful about shadow but like aside from aside from that and i think like the continuing and the continuing education aspect of it's really yeah that's good yeah anything that encourages uh trainers that already have businesses and things like that to continue to grow a good thing and so some of the organizations that certify require continuing it a certain number of hours yeah and you can get checked off in a lot of ways you can go to a certain seminar that somebody's giving or and you can get checked out i think pushing people to continue to better themselves is a good aspect of 100 if you want to maintain that certification then you're going to at least have to go sit in front of yeah some different trainers a certain number of hours a year which is good for everybody everyone should be doing that like and the people that are serious about training are always checking out people and watching what people are doing they're they're trying their best to expose themselves to new ideas all the time but it sort of forces somebody that might be reluctant into sure yeah genuine education yeah that's why i was so bummed uh we were gonna come out me and actually one of my trainers signed up for your e-collar uh i know i know yeah i'm gonna we're gonna do them again and uh and i'm about to probably do one on zoom so

yes i i'm down yeah i'm totally down because i was so bummed because because that's it man it's hard it's hard sometimes when you're like especially you know like i'm so passionate i want to help help help help teach teach teachers give give and i'm like but i need to also make sure my my knives are sharp too i need to make sure that i'm not getting stagnant or i'm not um not being a sponge anymore and i'm trying that's why i'll just go into daycare i'll just literally like at least i can go into daycare and watch dogs and oh that's interesting and and take pull pull things from dogs because ultimately they're the masters at teaching you describe something that's hard for anybody once they get successful too you're busy and so you tend to like get insular you're in your world it's tough and your your time is full and so getting continuing your personal growth is always hard it's hard all industries it's the same thing for no matter what it is like you get good you get busy and now your personal growth takes away exactly 100 and that's it doesn't mean that you're not giving people a good product but yeah you know yeah it's tough it's tough and that's why like we were i was so stoked to come out and hang out with we were going to hang out with forest a couple days before and then but we'll we'll do it we'll have it we'll have an opportunity again yeah absolutely eventually we'll be back to something and then yeah and then we'll we'll wrap it up by um but yeah we'll we'll we'll catch up again that because that was that was something that we were all looking forward to but um one thing before i forget too is um the place i think you referred us to i don't know i think it was you because you you live there is the um the like uh there's like a it's like a village of places it's like a brewery and a winery and um yeah the the barlow in sebastian yes we went there and it changed i was i've been wanting to go back there oh yeah for years i'm just like that that was like a little it was like a movie set almost where you're walking and it's got all the lights and there's different just every every business is different and it was so cool and my girlfriend and i just we sat down and we had a beer here and wine here and you know being in california it was it was it was it was perfect so anyway so that was really really cool well it's still there it's not fun fully right now so wait till this is all over then come back out yeah yeah we're gonna um as as of everybody else too you know once things start to open up it's gonna be the floodgates so um i definitely want to get out to california again and do some stuff but

um so why don't you just tell people where they can where they can find you and how they can see the stuff that you're doing and interact with you on so you have the instagram and yeah so um yeah i i am much less social media savvy than you but we we definitely have a it's the michael ellis school for dog trainers we have a facebook page we have an instagram uh and then our website so it's michael ellisschool.com and so um all those things are uh about to get super busy because we're launching a new website and a lot of the online options the the distance learning options are getting launched here and then over the next two months so that's awesome so there would be a bunch of stuff happening there yeah i remember i remember you were developing when i i took all those pictures last time i was there yeah they're great and i remember you developing your website then so that's cool i'm glad you're uh getting wrong with that cool well again man it was a pleasure absolute pleasure to talk to you man yeah and when when uh whenever this is over i'll uh hopefully be able to come out we can take a rain check and come out and train some dogs and have some wine and have a good time that'd be lovely cool thanks tom i really appreciate it yeah thanks michael all right take care bye i literally can't film anything outside today it is so windy but anyway thank you guys so much for watching listening this is going to go live on my podcast tomorrow so if you want to listen to this in audio format all you have to do is head over to my podcast i appreciate you guys watching michael thanks for hopping on i will talk to you guys next time peace [Music] you