E83: 낸시 갈리아르디 리틀(Nancy Gagliardi Little) - "어질리티 스타트라인부터 오비디언스 문제 해결까지"

one all breed in the 16-inch preferred. Of course, she, in June, brought me back into obedience for a little bit. Our agility club that I was on the trial committee was also hosting, besides an agility trial, we used to have a two-ring agility trial, and we put on an obedience trial as well. And so I brought her, you know, she's trained in obedience, and I brought her out for the first time in beginner-novice, and that was kind of fun. But you got two legs. That's awesome. So I guess I'll have to finish that off. Then there's Lever. He's five. He just qualified for the first time for AKC Agility Nationals. And he's working on his mock in AKC. And then I have my youngest, who is a, her name is Pose. And she's Lever's daughter, and she's 10 months old. So that's my group. I have a lot of fun with all of them for different reasons. Yeah, I bet. And it's neat, because you've got kind of a wide range of skills and ages and can do lots of different stuff. I'd imagine training day at your house is probably quite the mix of things. It is, because I still want to work. You know, I still, Score goes out with me and trains. Well, he's around, he's around when I'm training all the time. He just kind of hangs out, and it gets him exercise. And, you know, he just enjoys being out with the other dogs. He provides a great distraction, because he's always trying to get in close to me. Since you have a young dog, what are you focusing on with her right now? What do you guys hope to kind of achieve long term? Well, I love agility, obviously, a lot. So my goals are going to be, or hopefully will be, that we compete in agility. But I do, I plan on training her in obedience and herding as well. And time will tell what I did decide to do in those areas. But I absolutely love puppy training. So I'm enjoying this time with her. So she's learning lots of very important skills right now. I'm lucky that she's able to come to work with me when I teach at the training school. Also, when I'm at competition, she comes with me. She goes everywhere with me. She's learned to be relaxed and quiet. And I keep her in X-pen while I'm teaching. Also, when I'm competing with Lever and Schema, she's created. And she's learning how to exist among all the chaos at the agility trials. And, you know, when I'm teaching, she hears my voice. And she's super quiet. So I'm really proud of how she's adjusted to that. And she just acclimates really nicely when she's created at the trials. I really like that. She's one of the best dogs that I've had coming up in terms of just being able to relax and chill.

What she's learning, there's nothing really big right now. She's 10 months old, and it's like I feel like, well, she doesn't know anything, but yet she does know a lot. I've focused a lot on toy games, tugging games, some personal play she's really good at, and food games. And we just do that in different environments. And I've got a lot of opportunities around the school to be able to train around other dogs. And then also including my own dogs, which are quite the distraction for her because it gets her arousal up. And some competitiveness, which is always, you know, good. So we just kind of work on things like that. I like to move her back and forth between high arousal and low arousal behaviors because that's an issue with the Border Collies is a lot of times they get that high arousal, and they just can't mentally function. So just kind of getting her to shift from, you know, from being pretty high to really thinking things through has been kind of fun. So she's done really well. She can make that shift really well. So in terms of the foundation stuff I'm working on, event markers, do a lot of stuff with that, stationing, just to make sure that, you know, I have a place to start and stop and think about things. And, you know, and then I also work my start lines from stations. I start that initial work, pivots, targeting, reps, you know, round wings or cones. And then kind of the beginning of two on, two off. This is funny. I listened to your, to Shade's podcast, and she was talking about her puppy and, you know, the sit. And it's like, oh, that's exactly what's going on with poses. You know, I just, I just recently started working her on her sit because I didn't, you know, didn't really like the way she was sitting. You know, she was growing fast and her rear feet were all over the place. I mean, she would sit, but, you know, she's so bendy and all over the place that I was just like, well, I don't think we're going to do this right now. And I just started working on it now, and she's, she's really tightened up everything. And it's just interesting how many people ask puppies to sit. And she just kind of looks at them like, what? I don't know what that means. So it's kind of surprising for them to learn that she doesn't know how to sit. That's the big thing we just started working on now because I wanted to start working on her, her, her start line and her position. Different positions sit, you know, and down and those kinds of things. So you're talking a little bit about start lines in there. Have you started working on start lines with her yet? Yeah. Yes.

She does have the beginning of a start line. The sit is not really something that I need before I start working on the beginning of a start line. And as we talk through here, you'll see that, you know, most of it is just for her learning what the release cue is. And so you can do that from any position. So, yeah, she's actually got a fairly decent, and I'll still call it beginning of a start line. So I'm kind of happy with that. I saw a question pop up from one of the Fancy Facebook groups the other day where a competitor mentioned her dog's start line had eroded and she was starting to retrain it. What are, you know, some of the early signs that a dog's start line may be beginning to or about to kind of fall apart? What happens is most people watch for the dog's feet or body movement as mistakes. And by doing that, you're missing really the early signs that there's issues. So I think in terms of getting early signs that the start line is about to fall apart, I think it's more important to pay attention to facial expressions and, you know, what's going on emotionally. What's she looking at? How is she processing? How is she evaluating what's in front of her? How is she releasing toys? You know, as reinforcements or, you know, whatever is happening there. And then, you know, just paying attention to how she's appearing and how she's responding. And I know whether the start line is confident and stable. Those are the early signs. And I really don't think people pay attention to that, that just that look in the dog's face of, huh? You know, or something's kind of bothering them. Their head dips. There's lip licking. Years are back. Like the kind of facial expression that tells you that there's something happening. And that's in the context of the start line. And once that starts happening, you're going to start to see more movement. So it's kind of a head issue. A mental issue is just checking their emotional state. So if somebody does kind of catch it earlier, they start to see some of the signs start to creep in. And, you know, what are some of the ways or the best way, I guess, to reestablish that strong start line that hopefully they had at one point? If they had a really good start line and they're catching it early, then there's some things to keep in mind. So when there's mistakes, like I said previously, the focus should be first on the dog's emotions. Because a confident, happy dog is much more likely to be able to understand what's being asked. It's also going to make the trainer more aware of frustration or confusion coming from the dog, focusing on that emotional state.

And like I said previously, the trainers are relying on dog's body movement as an indicator of an issue. And that's almost that, well, that is always too late, in my opinion. So that's the most important step in reestablishing or maintaining the start line. The second thing would be teach a reliable release. And the release cue is really, truly the easiest way to get a reliable start line stay. Training a strong release cue. In the world of agility, there's so much information for the dog to process because of the atmosphere and the energy in the sport. For a dog to have a well-trained start line, the handler needs to eliminate all these extra prompts and movements that are associated with. And they also predict the release cue. And so many dogs are breaking the start line because they're frustrated. Or they're anxious or confused because the actual release cue is different than the handler is intending it to be. The other thing that can happen, too, is the dog just can't predict when the release cue will be given. There's all kinds of extra motion. And they're back there, you know, watching the handler and just, you know, just getting all twitchy because they're not sure when they're going to turn and give the release. Training a reliable release is, you know, another one of the big ones. The third one is, this is another issue, too, that I'm kind of surprised at, is start line behaviors that the dog has or what you have to train. Make sure that the dog is trained so that they understand the criteria and the dog is in control of it. A big issue is when handlers attempt to control the stay. They physically place the dog in the position or they're repeating the stay cue over and over. Verbal, I'll say, threats, you know, like you stay, you stay, or hey, things like that as the handler leaves. Or the other thing is like facing the dog as, you know, the handler is moving away, they're facing the dog. All those behaviors are really, these are behaviors by the handler. They're all controlling behaviors. And it just, it's a sure way to create a frustrated and confused dog. And those are eventually going to break down any trained behaviors. Because dogs, they want to be in control. And they like being in control. And the funny thing is, I hear this a lot, is that, you know, handlers will label their dogs as pushy or naughty. And usually it's really the handler's fault for not training the behavior so that the dog offers it and maintains it on their own without the handler intervening. And then the very last thing that is important is handler connection.

And the dogs do much better with start lines when the handler leads out and super connected with their dogs. Some dogs don't have issues with the lack of connection from the handler. But lots of times the start line issues are resolved when the handler learns how to lead out and continues to stay connected with the dog. So those are like four areas that I like keep in mind when there's mistakes. And those are, you know, those are really based on what, if the dog had a strong start line previously. That way when it's, some of these things are caught early, it's really easy to fix. So I'd imagine, though, that sometimes kind of figuring out what it is or kind of breaking it down can be hard. Especially, you know, if a dog doesn't maintain their stay and you are getting some movement. And then you let them run anyway, right? That's reinforcing that behavior. But if you, assuming the dog likes agility, which I think is probably a safe assumption for our audience. But, and then if you don't let them run, you're increasing frustration, which might further erode the stay and have other fallout. So can you talk about that a bit? Just kind of how you handle problems if they do pop up? And maybe what some of the pros and cons are of the options that competitors have in that situation? You're right. Every time the dog leaves before the release cue, that behavior gets stronger. And as you said, dogs love doing agility. And so it's a really strong reinforcement to go and to run. And so there's lots of strong behavior chains that are unintentionally built into the start line routine as the dog starts a set of unwanted behaviors. Those behaviors continue to be reinforced as the handler moves forward in that routine until the dog's running the course. So problem solving start lines are kind of complex. And they depend on the history of the issue, the dog and the handler. The cool thing, and the reason why I like this so much, this stuff, is there's never a simple cookie cutter approach. But obviously the best scenario is just catching it early and not allowing it to occur at the trials. Once it continues at the trials, you get a long history of that behavior. It's a little more difficult, but you can still fix them. So I like to help handlers develop a plan for their particular situation, and they vary a lot. And it would involve a training plan, handling plan or changes, and how to handle mistakes. Those are big ones because, you know, every dog is going to be different. It's going to vary a lot between teams. Regarding the pros and cons, that's going to vary a lot also depending on the situation.

For instance, there can be both pros and cons leaving the ring. You know, if you actually remove a dog, like say if the dog breaks the start line and you remove the dog or you leave the ring. Some dogs have, they've built up such a strong reinforcement history for going before the release cue, that leaving the course without running will eventually get rid of that behavior. And it's sometimes the best way to do that. But it's also important when you do that that you're not adding any more emotional baggage, that you just leave happy because these dogs, those dogs that they want to run. So even when the handler leaves happy and even reinforces the dog or rewards the dog on the exit, it's going to still positively affect that dog's ability to focus on the release cue in the future because that's really what they want to do. But then there's other dogs that are more sensitive to mistakes. And then if you remove those dogs from the course when a mistake happens, it's going to cause a lot more anxiety and frustration. So in that situation, I'm going to probably suggest running the dog and then evaluating the training and the handling plan to ensure success because those dogs care a lot about being right. And so something probably was a miss in training or handling. So let's say kind of looking at it from the opposite angle, right? So somebody has a strong start line now and they realize that kind of an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. You know, is simply reinforcing that stay by allowing, by continuing to release the dog to play agility, is that going to be enough to kind of maintain that behavior? You know, are there other things they should be doing to maintain that behavior? Once the dog has a lot of value for agility, obstacles, and a good understanding of handling, and then has a well-trained start line, then yes, I really strongly believe that releasing that dog from the stay at the start line will reinforce that start line. And most dogs love agility and they want to go, and they're much more reinforced by going forward than having the handle return to reward them. So strong start line behaviors, they can deteriorate a lot, and I've seen that happen when the dogs, all they want to do, they want to go, and the handler wants to reinforce that or wants to reward that, and the behavior is interrupted by the handler returning to reward. So I really feel that, you know, if they have a strong, a solid start line, and they like agility, they like to play agility, then releasing them forward is a great reinforcer. I want to dig into, you talked about this a little bit,

but kind of that emotional component of start lines for a minute. If a dog is breaking their stay, what is that really saying about their emotional state? I mean, how does that play into kind of that bigger game of agility? I believe this is the area, like I said before, that most trainers miss, that emotional component. And it's about recognizing the expressions or behaviors that indicate the dog is frustrated or anxious and confused. And when they miss that, they continue on the same path, and they're working skills, attempting to address mistakes. And then really what happens is that the dog's stress level continues to increase because they're feeling all these emotions. And as you know, when the dog is stressed, they can be over-aroused or they can be even under-aroused, and they can't think or function anymore. And then any of the skills that we're taught are going to deteriorate, and there's just going to be bad feelings at that start line. So when there's a negative emotional issue at the start line, once they go, that's carried into the performance once the dog starts running. So, yeah, it's a big deal. I'd love to talk a little bit about proofing and lead-outs. With the variety of, you know, all the different course layouts out there and all the different options when it comes to course layouts, you know, there's so many different pictures that the dog has when working on their start line or that they need to maintain that start line for, right? So do handlers really, you know, is it really just about kind of training as many of those pictures as you can, or is there a better way to kind of help a dog generalize, you know, an awesome start line to understand that no matter what obstacle or no matter what layout they see, that it's still the same behavior? Right. That's a really good question. And it might be another thing that is missed a lot. I'm pretty proud of my dog's lead-outs because they're fast, and I've always got to, you know, it's such an advantage to start out running the course being, you know, fairly far ahead. So I have some pretty nice lead-outs on my dogs. Part of it is practicing all different types of patterns. And the first step is to, you know, teach them to be able to jump. Like most of the start lines are either tunnels, which, you know, tunnels or jumps. And I practice a lot of slice jumping so that the dogs can take a lead-out but still take a jump at a sliced angle, even though I'm very much in the picture. They'll still take the line that I set. And that gives me a lot of options. Basically, you're going to leave them at a jump at a slice.

They might be facing the jump at sideways while you're, you know, while you've let out. Most people, what they'll do is they'll just face their dog straight ahead towards the jump, and then they're at a disadvantage because the dog doesn't really see obstacle one and two. If I can put my dog on a slice, then he or she can see jumps one and two or obstacles one and two. And it's an advantage for me to be able to get out a little bit further because jumps one and two are taken care of. So I do a lot of complicated patterns, mostly with jumps, but then I'll add some tunnels as well in there because tunnels are super arousing. So those patterns are really important. The other thing I'll work on is long lead-outs. There's many times it's a jump to a contact, jump dog walk or jump weave. Can you lead way out and, you know, way past the beginning of the contact maybe to the end, and can your dog do that pattern? So patterns, yep, they're very important. And as long as you're consistent about the dog's line and supporting the line, they should be able to handle that. But the other part of that question is that, you know, I'm going to also add lots of distractions to start lines because there are distractions at the trials. And, you know, one way I do that is, you know, I'll use other dogs or people or just set it up in a variety of environments. And then what I'll do is I'll execute like a start line routine, which means just come into the ring, do my setup, lead out, and release. So that's just basically, and not really necessarily running a sequence. And I'll do that with, you know, starting like with dogs, maybe standing still at a distance, or then, you know, the dog is moving a little bit at a distance, or the dog is running sequences at a distance. And then the other thing is you add people because there's people at trials. They're everywhere. They're behind the dog at the start line, getting ready to take the leash. They're sitting in chairs. Sometimes they're moving to set bars. You just start adding movement, decreasing distance, having a leash runner behind the dog. These are like all external distractions that are, you know, you don't want to just have them happen once the dog starts trialing. You want them, you want the dog to be introduced to those things because they are a big part of, you know, of the start line. And can the dog focus while the distractions are there? Can the dog execute that start line routine? And then the other distraction I like to add is handler distractions. So like, you know, can you hold your stay while I'm disconnected? If I'm super disconnected handler

or super overexcited handler, or, you know, I might pair some movement with a few releases. And then I go back to a clear cue release. Just, there's just some fun games to kind of ensure that the dog understands the whole start line routine that I've set up. Of course, we're talking about start lines because your class on the topic is running this term. So anything that we didn't get into that might be useful for students to know if they're kind of considering the class? Lots of people ask about, well, what type of dogs, what type of dogs are best for this type of class? And, you know, it's one of my favorite subjects. So I love doing it because of the variety and creativity. But it's great for young dogs because the class is basically building that start line behavior and then also working with handlers so that things are going to be maintained properly. But it's also good for, you know, it's good for dogs learning start line behaviors and it's also good for dogs that are having issues with their understanding of it at trials. I'm working with the handlers to ensure they're giving clear information to their dogs because lots of times they're not aware that some of that is actually causing the issues. And once they see that, it becomes clear. You know, I help the handlers individually, you know, changing their behavior. And then, you know, as I mentioned previously, there's different strategies to change the dog's behavior too. And it's just going to, it's going to vary with all the different types of dogs. The question too is like, people have about taking it at the bronze level, which, you know, you can't really ask questions. You're just going to be watching the gold students and looking at the lectures. I'm really good about explaining to people why I'm telling somebody, giving a certain advice for a certain dog because I want, you know, I realize there's going to be bronze students out there that are going to be wondering, well, is this something I should do with my dog? Or, you know, I want them to understand that this is in particular what I would do with this type of dog. With this particular class, because it started today, it's October 1st. So it just started. I do have a very interesting class. There's a lot of variety in it. There's some dogs that actually need a little more speed. And then there's the other typical lightning fast dogs that just require a lead out in the class. So there's something for everyone. That's awesome. I want to change topics a little bit. I know you have your open and utility problem solving class on the calendar for December. So I just want to chat a little bit about obedience.

What are some of the common problem areas when teams are competing at that level, places where the teams just seem to struggle? Well, for some reason, the most popular exercises seem to be signals and directed jumping and specifically go outs in utility. There's a lot of that. And in open, it's usually just a variety of issues, lots of healing, fronts, finishes, drop on recall. That's more of a variety of things. But signals and directed jumping are really, really, really popular exercises to work on. That's what people seem to struggle. Yeah. It's one of those classes where I'm sure you see the same couple of issues or common issues kind of come up. The same exercises really pop up over and over and over again, right? It does. But interesting enough, there's always a little bit of a difference between each of the teams because of the dog or specifically what the issue is in each of the areas. Once the handler kind of has identified the signals or go outs or one particular exercise is really kind of the sticking point for their particular dog, what's involved in developing a plan for taking and saying, okay, this is a problem. How do we improve our dog's understanding of this exercise so that we can get it right? The first thing is just figuring out where's the issue within the exercise. And lots of times, it's a little bit different than what might have been explained or noted by the handler. Lots of times they're dead on, but I might find a little detail that I think is probably going to be important to work on first. Then we just kind of find a plan together to address that particular issue and then I try to get it so that we build that piece back into the exercise. And that's assuming that the rest of the exercise is healthy. I'm making sure that the handling is in place too. That's super important for all of the obedience exercises is to make sure that the handling is consistent and the dog is not confused. And it's not like I'm proposing certain handling of all exercises because I'm going to work with whatever they have. And if the dog is confused, then we need to make a change. So depending on the problem, it might be like teaching different skills. It might be working on handling. There's other things too. We just, we create a plan then to move forward. And it's much bigger than that. That's a pretty simplified answer. Well, I mean, you know, there's only so much you can do if it's a six-week class to try to explain the podcast, right? Exactly. Would it be helpful to kind of talk through an example? So maybe take, you know, one exercise and, you know, talk us through an example of a previous dog or a previous issue? Sure.

You know, for example, utility signals, it's a big, seems to be a big thing. So like say somebody comes in and they have issues with signals. And so after I look at the video, I'm going to actually probably first review the handler signals without the dog to ensure that they look clear to me and they look different. I'm really picky about signals. I like them to start differently. You know, the sooner the dog knows what that signal is going to be, the faster the response from the dog. If they have to wait until the signal is complete before they recognize cue, then obviously the signal is going to be, or the response from the dog is going to be super slow. So then I'm going to develop a plan for handling, you know, maybe make some, I'm not going to change everything, just the parts that I think are unclear. And usually the dog's telling us that anyway. So I'm looking at the dog's response. I'm going to look at also, I'm going to probably have them do verbal position changes and take a look at those and see how the dog's responding to the verbal cues, making sure that there's no additional prompting occurring from the handler. If the dog can't respond to the verbal, then I'm going to probably work on that first rather than the signal, because signals can be a little more complicated. So get that going first. And then we also have to incorporate like a good reinforcement strategy for that dog. So, you know, so that we can, you know, maintain the distance from the handler. And then gradually as things improve, build the distance with the verbal cues. And then I'm going to start to add the signals in with shorter distance, gradually increase that distance. And also, you know, some of this I'm using props to help the dog depending on the situation. Some dogs just don't need it. They're doing just fine. Some might need it. And then the other big thing for me for signals is just, you know, making sure that we're reinforcing the duration in each of the positions, that it's not just about changing positions. So there's a lot of different things to consider and a lot of different, you know, tangents that we can go on. Certainly makes it easy to see why it's a sticking point. Lots of different pieces. Right, right, right. Yeah. Right. There's a lot of stuff going on. Yeah. And the thing, too, about signals is it's difficult for the dog, too, because, you know, I think the reason why, one of the reasons why it can be so difficult is they're healing and they're with the handler and then all of a sudden there's this transition, you know, to this distance work. So I think that's really hard for some dogs, especially the utility aid dogs

that are the new dogs that are trialing. All right, Nancy. I got one last question here. It's the question I'm asking everyone now when they come on. What's a lesson you've learned or been reminded of recently when it comes to dog training? All of the podcasts, I'm like, oh, my God, I don't know how I would answer that question. You know, because there's so much stuff out there. But then, you know, all of a sudden it just, you know, when I got this question, it was just like, bam, I knew exactly what I was going to say. So, and it might be a bit different, but so I attended an event a few weeks ago was honoring my dad. And I was reminded of something that's important in training dogs and life in general. So he coached college football pretty successfully for 60 years, over 60 years. And he's actually the winningest college football coach of all time. So he did things unconventionally then. And it's actually unconventional now even. So he made changes in his own program that built kindness and respect into like a pretty violent sport. So, you know, and I think I even talked a little bit about this in the original podcast that I did with you where he had no hitting or blocking in practice. And that was way back in the late 50s, allowing, because he just noticed that some of his best players weren't playing in the games because they'd get hurt during practice. So instinctively, it felt right to not hit in practice. So that was 50 years ahead of the game. Like these are actually practices now that are being looked at and incorporated in some of the pro teams and big college programs today. They're just looking at that. But he trusted his instincts and he didn't allow any of the distractions of how things are supposed to be done to guide his decisions. You know, this has kind of always been my thing is just I think it's really important for all of us to focus in what we believe in and to trust our instincts because if something feels wrong, then don't do it. If something feels right, do it. Don't overanalyze why you should or shouldn't do something. Trust your feelings. I don't think we really trust our feelings enough. It might be different than when somebody else is doing, but that's how new ideas are discovered. So you can still make detailed plans. You can still obsess about those plans and execute those plans and evaluate the results and develop more plans based on the results. But be aware of your feelings as you train and trust them because if you're feeling frustrated or there's negative emotions, then something is wrong. And if you're feeling great, then keep going. You're on the right track because I firmly believe

that emotions are going to guide you in the right direction. So trust them and don't be distracted with what your friends on Facebook are doing. So be aware of those feelings. They can help you stay on track and move in the right direction. And you might discover something incredibly wonderful and different. Right. I like that. I like that a lot. Thank you so much, Nancy. This has been great. Thanks. It's been great being here. And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with Sarah Bruschi to talk about evaluating potential rescues for dog sports, fostering potential sports dogs, and more. Don't miss it. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast on iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. We'll see you in the morning. Thank you.