니노 드로바에르와 래리 크론(Larry Krohn)의 훌륭한 개 훈련 대화

Like, how do you aesthetically portray your dog training, which in some sports always look the same. You've got the healing. You've got the stops. You've got the sit fronts and the flips. And basically, it becomes a little bit of the same. And I've been guilty of watching IGP championships. And after 10, 15, 20, 30 minutes, I start, you know, skipping things. You know, I'm like only looking for that sit front or that down in the send away. You see, I'm looking for the highlights. And, you know, but I'm really inspired by any sport. And but what I do basically in my backyard is try to assemble a bunch of highlights in a five-minute routine. And that's what makes me happy. I'm not saying that everybody else got to go out there and do that kind of stuff. But it's something that I like. I like the action a lot. I like a lot of sports, like protection sports. And I think they're very inspiring. But watching them, and especially if they're like sequences that are always the same, it kind of, you know, gets a little bit dull for me. If I look that, you know, for more than 30 minutes straight of the same thing. I know how you feel about that. But that's just my personal opinion. Yeah. You know, Nino, it's funny you say that. That's similar with me. So I'm training my first dog for IGP, right? I've never competed before. And anytime I've gone to a trial, I'm excited. Because I love seeing dogs perform at a high level in anything, in any sport, any competition. And I really love watching, especially some of the everyday high performers in IGP, the guys and girls that do it year after year, dog after dog. But what I find is when I go to watch these competitions, I'm really paying attention and studying the handler as much as the dog a lot. But after 30 minutes, I have a hard time sticking around and not going to work on something myself. Something that I saw that I could make my own or maybe change or something just goes off in my head. Like, I think I could do this with this guy. That's so cool. I didn't describe that feeling. Yeah. I can't really get through a whole trial. I've never played through a whole trial. I know. It's so funny you say that. Because when I go look at the championship, like, for example, Belgian ring championship, after one hour, and I love it. And I'm like, oh, man, I think I want to try this now. And this one is stuff. You're definitely right on that. It could be very inspiring. Now, the thing is in trials sometimes is if you watch people, you're not going to get a whole lot of feedback on what they've done on the backside. Right.

It's a result, obviously, of months and years of training. But I like to watch sometimes just, you know, guys work out and not show, you know, the end result. Just how they work in the moment. To me, that's one of the most important things as a dog trainer. If I have to make assessments, I'm not going to look at the overall result of the demo. I'm going to look at trainers in the moment. What are they doing within that moment? Where are they making adjustments? Where are they seeing, okay, here is a little bit off. I'm going to rewind that. I'm going to fix that. I'm going to enhance that. That is what I'm looking for. And you can make the perfect demo. But if you roll over some of the sequences or, you know, spots that you didn't really like or they were off. And either you didn't address it or you didn't see it. That I'm not such a fan of. For the high level players I'm talking. For the trainers that want to aim high. They got to make sure that they're on point. That they see things. Like have a visual talent basically on to analyze what's going on. And to make those adjustments on the spot in the moment. That's what I'm really a fan of. And that tells me, okay, this person, woman or man, is on point. They know exactly what they're doing and what they want to achieve. And working a dog in the moment to me is one of the most important things. It's not like backtracking. And then, oh, yeah, I missed it six times in a row. Now let us fix the whole thing. I think, you know, the really, really good competitors. They're so good at anticipating on what's going to happen. And analyzing in the moment. That's what sets them apart. I've seen it. And I've studied it. Not only seen it. I've studied it. Why are these guys always the same guys always so good? I have a privilege to know one of the best competitors out there is Mario. Six-time world champion IGP. Nobody's ever done that. Nobody won the IGP six times. And he's got also the record on the most executive points within, you know, the Fridays, the tracking. And then on Saturday, Sunday, you've got to do obedience and the protection work two times because you've got to do it the next day again. I think he lost three to five points in the whole thing. Mario lose so people could look him up, you know, which is his last name. Mario. Yeah, he's phenomenal. So the IGP people that don't know him, you've got to look him up. He's phenomenal. So his name is Mario. Mario. M-A-R-I-O. Verslepe. And that is spelled V-E-R-S-L-Y-P-E. Yeah. Six times. That's unbelievable. Six times. And then with different dogs. He's done it with different dogs. He's been in there for a long time.

And every time he comes out with a dog, it is just phenomenal. It blows your mind. But you've got to understand, like, if you analyze these trainers, people look at the tangibles. What are we seeing? Oh, he's using a ball. Oh, I see he's using this kind of collar. Or using this kind of jacket. And he feeds this kind of food. And they use this kind of ball equipment. And so on and so on. The intangibles is what I'm after. Absolutely. What is this person about? Like, what is his control mechanism like? What are all his skills if you separate them? And what if he combines all these skills? That's when he becomes Mario. When he combines all his skills. And that's how we define talent. It's a combination of skills. And, you know, if you break down the skill, it's incredible what he can do. But the thing is, if you ask people, now, what have you seen? That makes them so extraordinary. They start looking at the dog. And they start looking at some details. But they don't really understand the whole framework. And that's why. And I've been there, like, literally. I've been in a club where there's one top competitor. And then there's people hanging around this top competitor for 10, 15, 20 years. And they're not looking like him. Sure. So you've got to wonder. How come these people don't look like him? Because they've seen him do it for 15, 20 years. Sure. And I don't look like him. So there's something to say about that. So it's not just observation, imitation. If it was just that, I mean, it would be easy, right? You'd buy anything. Well, I think what you don't see, Nino, is the little things. The little things that maybe people don't even really think too much about behind the scenes. And it's like that in behavior, too. If you're working with troubled dogs, like, everyone looks at what you're doing, what you're videoing. But they don't see all the behind-the-scenes things, the little things. The little training and behavior modification that goes on throughout the day. All the little tiny things that make that final picture successful. You know, they think they can go out and work their dog for 30 minutes and practice on something, and they're going to get there. It's constant. You know, it's absolutely constant. You know, and I think that's where people overlook. One of the best things that I've seen in high-level trials is when some of the best of the best, their dog blows in exercise. Okay? Particularly, in case I lose you, Nino, just go back in and click on the link. You'll be able to come back in. Okay?

One of the things I've noticed, I've seen some of the best of the best in the IGP, their dog blow the send-out. Right? The send-away. Right? And they've done it a thousand times successfully. And all of a sudden, one day, the dog halfway down doesn't down or downs halfway down. And so I'm always looking around, trying to figure out why. What made that dog do that? What didn't it see in training that caused it? You know what I mean? And I don't know if you ever find the answer. But I guarantee you, those people that did, I think they usually do find the answer. They know they could pick out maybe, I think this is why this dog did this. And then that's something you prepare for the next time. You know? Yeah. So that's the beautiful thing about working with the animal. No matter how good you are, eventually, there's going to be some errors. You know? Yeah. I'm going to catch up on you. For sure. For sure. The animal is a living being on itself. And you can display all the skills in the world and all the talent. The dog still has its own demeanor as well, has its own talents and has its own way of anticipating on things. It's definitely that combination. And that's why. And that's something that some people don't understand. Even the top competitors need that special dog. They need that dog that has that X factor, that has that, you know, unique ability to understand and to transcend skill in both ways. It's going both directions because the dog is giving a lot, the handler is giving a lot, and it's that synergy that brings them, elevates them to the top. And that's why, and I think you have that also, is people ask you, oh, well, you've done it now with a Malinois. Now, show that to me with a Hushky. And I like that comparison. Oh, I hate that Darcy. It's a fair comparison because if people don't understand the game, of course, they're going to say, well, that's one dog. Now, show me with a lesser dog how you can apply your skill or your methodology, and then I'll believe you. So I do understand where they're coming from. But in sports, and I like to compare it with the F1, is you don't put the best pilot in the worst car if you want to see what he's capable of. That's right. In a car that's at least capable of finishing, that's one, and that, you know, has an engine that rolls, and then he can show what he can do in his bent and in what his analytics and what his, you know, multitasking in that cockpit, that's what it's about.

And people don't understand that if the dog is not eligible to do these kind of things, it doesn't matter how good you are or how good your system is or your methodology or your ball play or whatever. It doesn't matter if you're a dog. And I already saw you laughing, so please give me your take when you get that question. I hear it all the time. Yeah. I hear it all the time, and I'm not doing the performance to the level like you are, and I still hear it all the time. I heard that same thing two days ago, and it was the same breed. They laughed and said, okay, now show me that with a Husky or a Northern breed. Yeah. Well, what sense does that make? You know what I mean? I don't understand that. How about you show me that with a Malinois or a German Shepherd, okay? How about that instead? Because if you think you can do that, if you get a better breed, just show me that. Why dumb my stuff down or dumb your stuff down to appease you so you don't feel bad? That doesn't make sense to me. You know what I mean? But, you know, I've seen you work out a little bit too, right? So you work out, you're the guy that goes to the gym. And the people that don't go to the gym, and if they would see somebody muscular, and I'm not even saying huge. Sure. But he's ripped and everything. They're very likable. Not everybody, but some people are very likable to say he's probably on juice. Because that would simplify the fact that they have something that they don't have or that maybe they give up on. And then it's easier for them to relate to, okay, well, of course, they do it because it's a Malinois. Well, of course, this guy looks buff and great because he's on the juice. Of course, it's possible. So you kind of downgrade a performance, and then you go, well, of course. And because if I would do that, of course, it would work, right? Yeah. Deep down, I think they know that that's not the truth. But, you know, what can you do? I think it's a little bit how people are like, either they want to downplay you or your performance, or they want to downplay the dog. And it doesn't really only relate to dog training, I feel. Well, I'm glad you brought up working out because I compare the two often, okay? And so when I started lifting weights, I just got out of high school. I graduated high school at 6'1", 135 pounds. I was as skinny as could be. I started lifting weights. I stopped playing basketball. I stopped boxing. I stopped doing all that stuff to get big. I was in the gym two, three hours a day, and I wasn't gaining nothing. And I did that for a while.

And then it dawned on me one day, after like two years, I'm looking at all the same people doing the same stuff every day, and they never looked different. Yeah. And I said, something's not right here. And so I dug deeper into the science, okay? Now, for me to start putting on weight and getting bigger, I had to sacrifice a lot, physically and mentally. So instead of working out two or three hours a day, I'd walk into the gym. My weightlifting session was extremely intense, but 15 minutes, 20 minutes tops. And then I'd go sit on the couch, and I'd eat a whole pizza and a Whopper combo meal and not move. And in two years, I gained 90 pounds. And I started hearing the steroid thing. He asked the beef dude. No, I just knew that I had to look what everyone else was doing and not do the same thing. I had to find a different way. And so I study a lot of different people with the dog stuff. I don't try to copy anyone. I try to take what I can use from everybody and make it my own. And that's a constant work. You know, the tracking thing right now, I'm brand new to tracking, right? And so I'm lucky to where I have good people I can call and talk to and follow and help. And I'm kind of doing all kinds of different tracking, you know, to kind of give my dog so many different pictures. Because I, at least in my opinion, I truly believe, not just in fixing behavior, but in teaching behaviors, I like to show the dog as many pictures as possible. Because I think the more pictures I show the dog, the better they learn something, whether it's behavioral or obedience. And that's just the way I'd like to do things. But it's not just dog training. Like you said, it's everything. It's everything you do. It's all kind of related. And you have to be able to break things down like that, you know? So one of the biggest questions I got about you, Nino, is your dogs perform at a super high level, right? Really high level. And one of the main things is people wanted to know, and then we can get into a bunch of the questions. What is it exactly that you look for in not just the puppy, but the mama and the daddy? What is it that you look for? Oh, okay. Well, here you go. The traditional way of thinking is what's in these dogs that makes them stand out and makes them produce all these great things with Nino. But I keep saying it, and this is part of my methodology as well. It's like you have to make an assessment on both, right? Because like, for example, in my MVP class, I just made a video where I'm working an eight-week-old puppy for five minutes straight, okay?

Then I give the same puppy, and he's still got enough food drive. And I give them to my student. He was on the spot. And I have the camera. And I said, now you're working for five minutes straight. And the puppy looked completely different. Completely different, right? The way he moves a little bit, it stiffens up. Like, the way the wrist is handled, the way the action's going, how it's flowing, the energy levels, and so on. And you can see, well, this kind of looks like a different puppy, right? So, I understand that people want to know everything about genetics and what do you look for and all that kind of stuff. But the truth is, you've got to make an assessment on yourself as well. I'm asking just like, and I just did a challenge, the middle to right, for example, which is a very rudimentary, basic move. I'm always surprised how stiff people are and how agile these dogs should be because they're doing it with Malinois, they're doing it with Pitbulls, they're doing it with all these working breeds that are supposed to be very fluid and agile. They still look stiff as a board. That tells me, okay, well, you've got to understand how to unlock potential, how to unlock agility, how to unlock energy. And that's one of these things, like, if you don't understand how that process works, well, I can tell you everything about the parents. I can get you the greatest genetic dog in the world, and it's still going to look stiff if you don't know how to transcend technique, if you don't know how to extract energy, if you don't know how to manage your time so the dog on its high energy is being worked and out on its low, right? And I'll give you, I mean, I don't need to give you an example. You're a dog trainer. That's a great thing about it. Don't you have that time of the day where the puppy is on its high and sometimes the time of the day is on its low? And usually, that's between 2 o'clock and 4 o'clock, he's not on his high, PM. He's not on his high. He's like a little bit. He comes up, yawning a little bit, the sun's shining. I don't know what's up with that time, but they're not doing the best they can. So that's just one of the things. And I can show you a completely different dog being worked at night and the same dog in the afternoon. And then you go, how's that possible? Yeah, sure. So it's one of those things, again, the intangibles, nobody sees that. There's not a clock on your video that tells you, hey, we're also in energy management, not just time management, not just when we come home from work, we work the dog and there's low energy and you think that's it.

It's not going to get any higher than that. Well, first of all, and that's also one of the primary skills that I teach is how do you play ball? Let me see you play ball. What I see is a mismatch of movements and the dog grabs a string. He's missing six times. They're really good dogs. They keep clapping the teeth, but the other ones already gave up on that. They're just jumping around a little bit. And I'm thinking, well, if you do not master that kind of skill, that kind of game, how can you elevate this dog's drive? You can have the best dog drive in the world if a dog misses by a mile 10 times in a row. You don't think he's going to slow down? Exactly. Exactly. People use so much negative punishment in tug and ball play. They expect the dog to keep going harder and harder because they think it's building frustration when they don't realize the dog's finding out it can't win. So my older Malinois, Luca, that you've seen, he goes 150% everything he's ever done in his life, even at 10 years old now, right? Do you know I've never taken a bite on a tug, a ball, or a sleeve away from him? Not once in his life. I've never had to frustrate him. I always wanted to reward his heart. And so when he put all of his heart into something, I never punished him for that by taking it away. And that's something I learned from somebody that you've worked with also many years ago. And that always stuck to me. And he just said to me, why would anyone punish the dog for giving you everything? Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. You never did it after that. So you never see me doing misses on bites and stuff. You know what I mean? Because if the dog loves it and it's there, you don't need to do that. You know, you just don't need to. And to add to what you're saying, you know, another thing I think is overlooked when it comes to sports, whether it's boxing, basketball, anything, and working dogs. There's a rhythm that has to be in the person to get the right performance, in my opinion, because there's a movement. There's a flow with the human and a movement that dictates how the dog looks. Right? Right? So even if you're working with the behavioral case, complete opposite of what you're doing with the performance. You'll hear me tell people all the time, stop the zombie walk. You need to move like you're a bad motherfucker. That's what I tell people. Because I need them to have that confidence and that swag to where the dog gets to be in a rhythm. Right? Same exact scenario. Now stop right there. Rewind. How do people get confidence? In general, not just the dog trainers. How do people get confidence?

It's by putting in work on the daily, putting in the repetitions, and, you know, really putting your heart into it. And that's what's going to give you confidence if you put work in it. Why are people not so confident most of the time is because they know they've lacked. They know they haven't put in the work. They know they haven't kept on with the disciplinary schedule, et cetera. And that's when they feel like, oh, it seemed like going live. Like, really, I don't prepare anything live. I can go live right now with anyone on this planet. Like, push the button. I'm on. I don't care. Why? Because I know all the work I put in all these years. Sure. I know exactly what I've done, why I've done this, and I can explain this stuff. I don't need to go like, I hope he doesn't start over that topic because I don't care. You can ask me anything, any controversy. I'll answer it. Really? Because why? Because I put in the work still on the daily. It doesn't matter if I'm a teacher now or I'm a trainer. I still know what it is, what it takes to have a young puppy. I'm still getting up every morning to train that puppy. I still cut up the food. I still do all that kind of stuff. So, and I think that's one of the things that takes away confidence if you've been lacking in those areas and then you get confronted and go, oops. Yep. That's a hard one. That's a tough one. So, not sure if you agree with me on that, but I feel. 100%. Knowledge is power. And so is practice. You know? And that, you know, repetitions are important. Well said, Jay. My buddy Jay says people don't realize there's a difference between irritating a dog into biting and the dog committing to a real game. No doubt. No doubt. And Jay is definitely one of the best at that, too. He's fantastic at it. So, speaking of food, do you use, this is another question, do you use existential food for your training with your puppies? Yeah, I think that makes the most sense. There's always, you know, how do you call it, exceptions to it. But overall, if you want to, if you want to, I call it like taming a wild animal. You're not going to feed, or, you know, the opposite. If you wouldn't feed the animal and then you would go in there and think you're going to tame it, it's going to kill you because it's too hungry. Well, with dogs, you need to have that, you know, a little bit power over the source that gets his interest. And the primary first thing that comes to mind is food. That's how you get in a lot of technique. That's how you make him move. That's how you basically synchronize with that dog. And yeah, because let's say you have both.

If you're really lucky, you're going to have high food drive and you're going to have high ball drive, prey drive. But the prey drive with a young dog is not going to do anything for you because he's only going to lunge at the thing. He's going to be all over the place. And then you'll have to maybe even correct him to not lunge at you. Right. And basically you're not teaching anything then. Sure. There's no correction. So I think it's a great way to go. If the dog doesn't have a whole lot of food drive, it's still okay. As long as he keeps moving and keeps, you know, being in the action. And I think you just got to shorten the sessions, maybe try some other foods, pick your time again, energy management. Remember, that's one of the things. Yeah. Food is an important thing because it allows you to do things very technical. Which I love. I'm addicted to techniques. So yeah, I use a lot of food for sure. And of course, if you're going to use that, you're not just going to throw that in a bowl and say, hey, why don't you eat that? And we'll train after you. I mean, that wouldn't make any sense. Right. Right. Okay. So from eight weeks old to six months old, what's your schedule look like using food to start teaching the behaviors to the dog, creating the movement that you want? At what point in that time do you start switching to maybe adding a little bit of the ball play and a little bit of the toy? Well, look, I always do sessions, technical sessions with the young puppies at eight weeks. And in those sessions with food, I have a few basics in mind. So I want this dog to pivot because pivoting is a hard thing to do. And I'm talking pivoting in the heel. Okay. So first we got the left, right. Those are the obvious ones. You got the sit fronts. You got the, you know, coming in the center. All these kinds of things are the very basic ones. And off of this basic foundation of these six, seven, eight moves, you build on variations, different angles. So then from the middle, he's going to pivot to the right. But in this pivot, I'm going to also pivot 180 degrees. And the dog got to pivot with me, even the young puppies. So this back-hide coordination, they developed that around 15, 16 weeks. Okay. That's when I go in with harder technical exercises. Still doing like sort of the same thing, but harder. Okay. I'm implementing a few props, for example, to have them like run around something because then they're running around something. It's not about the running around the cone, for example. It's about the speed you create to come back so you can do things now faster, right? Because the puppy is always static.

If he's in your close proximity, he's not having a lot of speed on him. But what happens if the dog has to execute this heel position when he's running fast? Now, how do you make him run fast? Well, you can't be running with him because then he's still with you. You got to send him away from you. All right. There's a lot of sendaways and comebacks. And from these comebacks, I do come back in a center heel. I do come back in a sit front. I do come back in a, you know, I walk away then from the dog. I run away and then he's going into a prance healing, for example. So that's when the common combos kick in. I'm a big fan of combinations. The freestyle for me is something that I never want to give up on because basically sometimes I have a little structure in my head. I'm going, okay, I'm going to go with this and this and this exercise today. And all of a sudden, either things change because I see something that I got to work on. Yeah. Or I'm like, oh, my God, he's on this incredible energy roll. Let me try something harder now. Let me try something more extreme that see how much he can put his or start fading, for example. People always ask me also, when do you fade that stuff? It all depends on the dog and your technique. How are you going to fade something if you're not even happy with how he's doing it? Sure. So let's say he's doing something phenomenal. I start fading right away. I'll come back to it. I'll go back to that lure again, but I'll start fading and see how he reacts to that. You see, I'm now capitalizing on his high energy and his belief of positional work and technical work that I'm fading out eight. And all of a sudden, he's keeping position, click, or boom. That's when you confirm what he's doing. And those kind of moments is what I look for in a dog training session. Is that, oh, nailed that. Oh, he's fading that. He still kept position. These little, little steps that he took further, like a pivot. The first one is one little back step, this much. One little back step, but his foot down. Okay. He does that. One foot. Then he does that. Now I'm trying to make him turn. One little inch. And you got to be content with little things. And there's also, one of the things that I see is greed. People are so greedy. I can't believe it. Like the little dog shows something phenomenal, but they want to push it until it's like, well, now you can't reward it anymore because he completely went sloppy or he couldn't hold that position. And then he got to do it again and again and again. And now the puppy's suffering because the handler's got to practice, which is also a necessity.

That's why I'm a big fan of practicing without your dog. If you need your dog to put in all the footwork, I mean, you're going to have to have one hell of a dog to go with you and do that a million times basically. That's right. Well, I'm doing a lot of things. And that's where the headphones came in. Why? Because if you're doing that kind of stuff, it really looks silly just doing that in the open. Like, hope nobody's watching me. But if you're listening to your favorite tune, you don't care about anyone's looking. It's like singing in the shower. You don't care because you're in the zone. You don't care. And that's what I do with these dogs. You know, I put on the headphones. And now I'm at the level where I'm doing it with the dogs, right? Because I know all the movement, the technical movement without the dog. So then I'm in this moment. And this music inspires me to either find a new flow, a new rhythm, a new exercise. That's what I was just going to hit. That's what I was going to say. See, the music, that brings out that rhythm in the movie and you. And I do the same thing if I'm, say, hitting a speed bag. I'm hitting a speed bag or a heavy bag. I got the music on. Yeah. And my flow with the speed bag comes from what I'm listening to, right? And so I'm not going to listen to Andrea Bocelli when I'm hitting the speed bag. I did. One of my favorite routines that I made was actually on the symphony. What do they call it? Like Vivaldi? Vivaldi? Yeah. One of the symphonies. One of the very, very famous symphony. And it was so powerful that I just, I had to do something. And in my head, I was like, in front of a crowd. I had to show something. And that's the kind of stuff you just fantasize about. It's definitely not real or something. But you don't care. It's like living that moment, having fun. And that's. So when you put out the video, the first one you did of you doing all kinds of kung fu shit, your movements with no dog, right? Oh, that one. See, that's the difference, though, with people that don't give a shit about what others think. You have to be able to say, I don't give a shit the shit I'm going to get for this. This is what I do. Yeah. And if that's what you do, you have to be able to show it. Just show. They want to know how you get to where you're at. But then they're going to mock you for showing how you get where you're at. Yeah. Well, it's one or the other. But I'll tell you, it was really fun because the professor asked me, OK, you know, act like your dog was here. I'm like, man, we're in San Francisco. This is a public park. There's so much people here. I don't want to do it.

They said, just do it. And I was like, OK, click. I'm just going to do this. Of course, a little bit of music in my in my phone. I put that on. So if you listen carefully, you can still hear that, by the way. And then I started doing it. And the funny thing was somebody like a few young people came to me afterwards and said, hey, man, you looked at this dance. This is a really nice dance. I was like, dance? What are you talking about? It's not a dance. I was training a dog in my imagination. They said, what? You're training a dog? How's that possible? I said, OK, hold on. Look, this is how the dog looks when I'm actually doing it with the dog. I know what they said. Well, well, that makes sense because you're kind of moving the same way. It makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Yeah. People knew nothing about dog training. They thought I was dancing. I can't dance. Like, really, I cannot dance. Don't let me dance, OK? Because I can't. Let me move for the dog and I enjoy it. That's great. I love it. All right. We'll get to a couple of questions, too. Your e-color of choice. I would say my e-color of choice is the Martin system, the Chameleon, because it gives you more variety, more options. But it's a hefty price. I understand a lot of people that I've told them. That's what I used to say. Yeah, but I don't have $1,000 or more or $600 or $800. I don't know how much the models are. But then I'm thinking, OK, well, what is then the second best option? And then I might have to look at you because there was a time where I was experimenting with a few e-colors, but not at this point. And I just read, actually, on your profile, somebody sent a doctor to you and you kind of like it. This is one of the models I also tried and it was definitely OK. How about you? How did you like it? Yeah. The Martin system, Chameleon 2, I tell people that's the Rolls Royce of e-colors, right? There's no doubt about it. Not everybody that I work with is going to buy a Chameleon. And so I don't even push it. Most of my clients use e-collar technologies. And I love e-collar technologies. It's a simple collar. I don't like a ton of features, but some of the things on there I like. And their customer service is phenomenal. Dogtra makes really great collars. I used them for years, never had an issue with them. So those three collars, if you get one of those, I don't think you could really go wrong. About what age, depending on the dog, do you usually first put it on your dogs? I don't have a fixed age. I can tell you that the dogs that I've trained the longest, which is Enzo, Cody, Rocky, and Senna, and a few others that I had for a longer period,

I would say Rocky was the one where I implemented it the earliest. But he's also the most extreme dog. Sure. So out of those 40, he's got more drive than all of those others combined. So he was using a collar. I was using a collar at four and a half, five months, which is extremely young. Normally, a regular dog, I would probably say between seven and nine months. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. That's the same thing with me too. All right. If you couldn't work with the Malinois, what breed are you going with? Oh, I love the lab. I'm in love with the labs. Really? That's awesome. Yeah. That's not what I expected. That's cool. Really? You didn't expect that? Yeah. What did you expect then? Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I like that answer. Maybe you need to get a lab now. Yeah. Actually, I'd love one. You know, I'm asking a few people to look out for a black lab. So if everyone has a great black lab. Hey, listen. Yeah. Several years ago, I was at one of Bart's seminars. It was the first one he did coming back to the States. And there was a lot of people. There are a lot of extreme dogs. Like, really, a lot of extreme Malinois and Dutch Shepherds. Like, that was the first time me ever seeing such extreme dogs. I think the most extreme dog there was a black lab that Pat Nolan brought. Oh, yeah. Dude, through the roof, man. Like, this dog was nuts. I couldn't believe how high drive that lab was that Pat had that day. You know? You need to ask him about that. That's great. You mentioned that name. Yeah. I got to ask Pat for sure. Who's been your biggest influence or influences in the game, in the dog training world? Well, I would say Bart probably in the early. No. Actually, I started in a ring club. I never heard about Bart. So my passion doesn't come from seeing Bart. But it actually came from just looking at dogs on YouTube and just set that passion and something that I never even knew anything about. It's just that attraction of something that I fear, to be honest. Because actually, I'm afraid of dogs. Not many people know that kind of stuff. But I would say the technical stuff from Bart, I would definitely love that. But I think, you know, the heart that comes with it. Because you got to have a lot of, you know, grit to put into dog training. You got to have a lot of discipline. You got to have a lot of focus. I think that comes from my pre-dog training career where one of my best friends was an Olympian. And I always tried to be like him. I always worked hard to even, you know, come on his ankles, which I couldn't, of course, because he's an Olympian.

But I knew what it took to try something really hard to be the person that you kind of admire. And coming into the dog training, I was kind of surprised by how not technical hard it was to do things. Because running, for example, sounds like something incredibly easy. But it's so technical that I was dying in there just to make a technical run and doing the ballet. It's like really suffering to make that happen. And into dog training, it was like I was looking at, you know, one of the better trainers. And I thought to myself, what is he doing that I could not do technically? I was looking at his hand and his feet and his speed and his coordination. And I thought to myself, well, if I'm honest here, I don't see anything that I couldn't do. I honestly believe that. And I think that kind of belief is something that, you know, people need in order to do something. If you're going to look at something, I think this is impossible. It is impossible. If you look at something and you think, I'm going to do right then. What he does, I'm going to do. And maybe even better. Not by any means as disrespect to that person. By any means. No, I sure. And you should strive to do it better. And I think if you're emulating a decent person, that's going to make them happy. They want you to succeed. You know what I mean? And those are the people I like to work with. It's funny you say that because more recently, I was listening to Avi Cohen on Robert Carverall's podcast. You know, and Avi's big in the IGP world. And my thing's always the tracking. I'm always trying to learn more on the tracking, you know. And he said something that really stuck with me. And that is that after all these years, he's up at 4.30 in the morning tracking every single day. And so right from there, I realized I'm not doing enough when it comes to the tracking. If I'm going to get good at tracking, that's what I have to do. You got to bring not only your A game, you got to bring an extraordinary amount of discipline. I'm going to give you a little bit of insight. For example, one of the world champions that I just mentioned, Mario, incredible guy. He cuts up his food, five different flavors, five different bags, five different knives. He takes all these pieces into the ground, like then covers them again. Like the process, just the energy that goes into that. Most people say, are you nuts? What time at 5, 6? No, he does that twice a day. Wow. And here comes a clue. He's loving it. Yeah. How are you going to beat a guy that's loving something, does it twice a day, and you're hating on it? Yeah.

And by the time this dog's six months, he's tracking better than any two-year-old dog. Sure. Competing. Better. But you see, that's the thing, you know, and that's the intangible. That's what I'm talking about. Is that something you can't see? You see the result of the track, but you can't see what's behind, what the person is like, how driven he is, how focused he is, how disciplined he is, how much perfection he wants to put in everything he does. But if that's not your control mechanism, if you're like more of a person that does a lot of things at once, for example, it's called a hurry up. It's in psychology. He's got people. There's five drivers, and everybody has a dominant driver. If yours is not be perfect, but if you want to imitate somebody that is be perfect by default, by nature, just how he is, and you're a hurry up with somebody that does a hundred things at the same time, is always on a time schedule, is pushing things, that's going to be a tough one. Yeah. To be somebody at that kind of game. You see, but the routine of the IGP, which is always the same, you go to any place in the world, your competition is going to look exactly the same. It's going to be judged. It should be judged exactly the same, which for the be perfect makes a lot of sense, because he can perfectionize his craft even more, and he's not going to get any surprises. Right? Right. So he puts his money on what he thinks is important. So that's when he becomes, you know, energized by using that driver for things that he wants to do. If you ask a be perfect. Now, you know what? My desk looks a little disorganized. You're a be perfect. Can you make that perfect? He'll go, are you nuts? Of course not. That's one. And two, if you make him do it, he's going to lose energy, because he doesn't think that's important. Sure. See, it doesn't work like that. Anyways, to go back to those intangibles, I think that's a really important thing that people oversee. And if you look at dog training, Larry, and people talk, this is my job. I talk about dog training every day. It's always about motor skills for the dog. How we teach the dog things. How we teach this. How we teach that. If I ask somebody, then name me the three top talents or the three most important talents to do it. That's already a tough one. And if I talk about a control mechanism that are going to hinder people from developing, that's even further away from it. We're talking about dog training. Why are you talking about my control mechanism? Yes, because your control mechanism, you know what that does? If you have to combine skills, right?

And your control mechanism is under pressure. And there's many reasons that your specific control mechanism can be under pressure. The first thing that goes out the door, you know what that is? Complex skills or new learned skills go out the door. You go back to the old ones. Yeah? It's the same thing. And Larry, since you're into fighting and boxing a little bit, I assume, it's like every good fighter has a game plan when he comes into a fight. But then when things get tough or you get kicked in the face too much or the plan goes out the door and it goes back to what he was doing. And even though he said, I'm going to give a master class. This next fight, I'm going to give a master class. I learned so many new things. Had a new trainer, new camp. He's going to, you know, display all sorts of things. And then the stress got to him because whatever reason, he's going back to the old ones. How's that possible? Was he lying? No, he's not lying. Sure. When your control mechanism is under pressure, the first thing that goes out the door are all the new skills. So you've got to talk to people about what is your control mechanism and how does that operate? How can you anticipate on that when that happens? And what is triggering you to get that kind of anxiety? Yeah. You said something that I just said just about word for word to my last dog I sent home, the Cane Corso that so many people watched. When his owner finally was headed home, she was in a tough situation stopping by some family and she filmed it for me. You know, and exactly what I told her, I said, go watch the video you sent me. I said, you went back to doing exactly what you did the first day you dropped the dog off. Because when you're not practicing without the real distractions, you're always going to revert back to what you were doing before. Always. Muscle memory is very strong and so is mental memory. And so a lot of people don't know, but I was a firearms instructor for Department of Homeland Security for a long time. When we did our qualifying, you know, a lot of police departments shoot once a year. We had to shoot at least every quarter. And our qualifying shoots, it was always timed. You were always under pressure. So everything was from the holster with turning targets when you're in the right places. And it's time. Two shots, one second. Boom, boom, boom. You have to get off. So you don't have time to sit there and dial in because you have to train and your body has to get used to performing. And in that situation, the pressure is only the clock and the turning targets.

But if you can't get through that, when you get in a real situation, I've seen people that look the part, have all the gear. They have the shaved heads and the tattoos and the beards. And then you put them in a real situation. What I used to do for a living. Well, you know, they cave. They can't perform. They're scared to death. And their body doesn't perform because they haven't put in the work and they never had the mental capability to do it in the first place. And that's the difference. And again, going back to dog training, there's just there's no damn difference. It's it's the same damn thing. You know what I mean? Anybody that you're watching today that you think has a real bright future? Oh, you mean right now? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because you work with a lot of young people. Yeah, I love it. I love it. You know, and when I had this conversation with Denise a few weeks ago, I felt like the belief in the talent or competencies of new people, young people was so like she talked about the 90 percent. And Denise, forgive me if I'm saying something that doesn't reply or relate to what you said. But I think that's exactly what we heard is the 90 percent of people she meets are not capable or not competent or whatever. And I'm the opposite. Look, I've trained people at the police that have never had a dog in their life. And I'm going to give them a Malinois, right? Highlight Malinois. Not only that, just what you referred to. I'm going to put them in a situation where there's going to be stress, guns and this dog. And they still got to handle these things. It's what, how would I not trust these people with an e-collar? I'm trusting them with a gun. That's right. Why would I trust them with an e-collar? Of course, you know, you got to, if you lay out a plan that's going to make sense and that's going to, you know, help them understand and multitask and all these kind of things. I think you got to give people the benefit of the doubt because if they really want it, they're going to pull it off. Why? Because I'm looking at myself. I'm looking at, remember that first day you got your dog and how you moved and how crooked and how bad that looked overall. That's right. But I put my mind into it. I was laughed at. When I said the first time before I had a dog, I think I want to join that canine unit. It's something that's been on my mind. I hear the laughter still today. You know somebody at the canine? You got a dog? You know somebody at the canine? No? Did you ever, you know, practice with a dog? Or do you know somebody that's going to help you do it? No, I don't know. Nothing of this. It was laughable.

But you know what? Your mind, if you put your mind into something, it's just like you were thinking of getting big. You got big. If you really want it that bad, you're going to get it. There is nothing that's going to stop me. And still today, you know, if I love dogs and I love to train them, nothing's going to stop me. You can strip me from everything. Nothing's going to stop me from grabbing a leash or a piece of food and go out there with a dog. Sure. Hey, listen. Sometimes I could be sitting on the couch watching TV 11 o'clock at night and I get an urge to go work on something. Or just go do some bite work with my puppy. Or just go throw a ball. Something. You know? Because I still love it. I still love doing this. But he's 10 months old now, Dante, my IGP dog. Well, hopefully my IGP dog. And, you know, I really put a lot of work into the basics. That foundation. So even though he's healing without a leash and no tools and doing something, I still go back and do sessions against the wall. Where he's just coming in to perfect heels and I'm rewarding in position stationary. And that's what people don't understand. So I talk to trainers all the time. Like, hey, I've been working on the healing. Like, what you do with Dante for a week. And he's not doing it without the lure. I said, a week? He's, you know. I said, go watch Dave Kroyer. It'll tell you it takes him 18 months to get his dog heel in the way of months. This is something you have to work on. And if you're not doing it correctly, it's going to be harder. And if you're going too fast, if you're trying to get the dog to move forward in a nice heel and the dog can't come in and sit into a nice, perfect position, how are you supposed to get there? You know, and that's what a lot of young people, Randy here. Hey, Randy, reverting to foundation. Good discussion. Always. Foundation's everything. You know, it's everything. And what you just said, to touch back to what you just said, that takes, and that is also an underestimation from trainers and myself included in the beginning is, do these people have a long term? And dog training long term does not mean years. Do you have a 12-month vision? That means you're going to do things today that you might go, well, why the hell am I doing this? That's not making any sense. But in 12 months, you're going to see the result. And it's going to be better than anybody else.

But are you, look, if they don't see it, if you don't have that kind of imagination, which I know some people don't have, that's why there's a lot of props being sold, a lot of DVDs being sold, a lot of stuff being sold, because they got to give people this idea that that tool is going to create something that is going to give you this imagination. Okay, now it makes sense because I see this tool and this tool is going to help me do this. If I give you a piece of food and I say, look, every routine that I ever did is based on this piece of food. There's no wall. There's no nothing. Just you and your body. That takes a lot of imagination. And if you don't have that imagination, which is totally fine if you're new, but it's our job also to give people that vision, to give people, okay, this is what you're going to do. We've got to talk to you, right? Comprehension first. Then comes the action. When you went to the gym, you said, I put it in the action, but I didn't really comprehend what I was doing. And I didn't get any gains. Of course not. You got to know about macros. You got to know about food. You got to know about training, about, you know, attention under pressure, about, you know, sets, all that kind of stuff that goes into the gym. And that kind of realm is the same for dogs. People sometimes buy a class of me and I do four-hour lectures. And I went straight to the demo stuff and then said, hey, that's not, look, there's a reason I'm going to talk four hours just about foundational work, just about why I'm doing all these things. So if you understand the why, the how just becomes easier for you because you can relate to it. Because you can motivate yourself. Hey, I'm going to put it in this work. That's going to have that kind of result. Yeah. Jay's asking you, JV, how you doing, buddy? How soon do you start bite training on a pup? I do bite training the second they come home. And that can be six weeks. Six weeks. I have a cool video on YouTube. Six weeks. Incredible. It just gets, but not a rack. You will never, ever see me or like really not often see me do something with a rack unless the dog doesn't want to bite the sleeve. Then I'm just going back to pill and pray drive. But I do everything on a sleeve. I even put a four-week-old puppy on a little sleeve. No kidding. Really? Yeah. So you don't never use a flirt pole or anything? Wow. That's interesting. Yeah. The NVBK, and that's like 100 years of, no, the NVBK is like since the 50s, but there's decades of tradition in building grip.

And I think these people have put in all their time, all their passion, that they've wrapped their heads around this more than anyone because it's decades over a decade. And it's people and people and dogs that have gone through the system to build the perfect grip. You know how big the Belgian ring is about the grip. Yeah. So I've seen it, and I've done it, and I've seen decoys work, these little puppies with those sleeves, and I've seen the other side also. And I always come to the same conclusion is I'm going to go what I see the best results. And I'm going to go what I think, not only think, but it's proven to be the most foundational method to build grip because the whole program is built on grip. I'll give you an example. You can have a dog that does every exercise and perfect, your master defense, your recall, your bite, down, I mean, out, everything, the jumps. If he doesn't have that pull, 25, full grip, power, strike, he's not even coming close to winning anything. That's how important that grip is. And then I studied that grip so much because I was very passionate about it because there were some really talented dogs in that pool of ring work in Belgium. And I wrapped my head around it, I think, more than anyone. Like, I was obsessed with this. And I came to the conclusion, you know what? This is the way I want to do things with always a sleeve. I got them the puppy sleeve. And if your dog can't buy the puppy sleeve, you must question, you must assess why he's not doing that. Is it because he needs a little bit more time? Okay, he needs more time, then go to drive building. Drive building is not grip building. So don't bring out the rack, pull the dog up, and say, look, we're doing grip work. No, no, no, no, no. Right, right, right. I'm doing grip work. You'll see his mouth open up. Like, even if he's a puppy, they can't open up like this even. And some of them even like that. You see, that's where you make the assessment and see, okay, what kind of quality are we working with here? And some puppies need more time. It's totally fine. But do not compare prey with grip work. If you're going to do grip work, he's got to open his mouth, and he's got to put some pressure on it. He's got to give that technique of biting something and not holding on to things which are this thin, and you can pick them up, et cetera. I've seen labs do that better than Malamu's. Like, you were just mentioning a great lab. A great lab will hold on to a tug, and you can get them up, and you'll still bite that thing. Sure, sure.

So then you're not talking grip development because there's no lab in the world that's going to give the same grip as a top Malamu. It's just impossible. Yeah. So that's why it takes a different approach and, again, a vision plan. What's next about this leaf? How is this decoy going to work? How are you going to work in conjunction with the decoy? Are you going to hold the leash? Are you going to put a little tension on the leash? When are you going to release this leash? Et cetera. All these things that come into play now are talking about a serious plan here. It's not just, hey, let me see what this little puppy does. That's like the first time. That's when you can do it yourself, basically, almost, if you kind of know the technique. But soon, if it looks great, you've got to get in people. Now it's teamwork. It's not just no longer one guy. That's all fun and games. If you're serious about going to the competition and building grip, you need a team, and you need guys that know grip development, like also passionate. About this. And I've seen a lot of differences. When I travel to the U.S., I'm still so surprised. I mean, these days, the Internet's everywhere. They're getting in the best people of the world. And sometimes I see grip development, like this is like 30 years rewind. How is that grip development? I'm giving you an example. I hope I don't upset people. But sometimes they show me bite marks on how hard the dog bit, and everybody's black and blue. And you know what? Then I think of San Ava, who is like one of the last craftsmen in the world building suits. And he said, if you're black and blue, I remember that because I used to do monitoring competition as a decoy. He said, when you're black and blue, you're either too slow or you're wearing the wrong suit. Like, how's that? He said, that suit, that half-competition suit is built to be that fast that you can pull yourself out of that grip. If you want to give grip, you've got to have a bigger suit or use a Belgian suit if you really want to develop grip. Well, that made a lot of sense to me. So when I see people black and blue, I already know, look, you're giving grip to either a dog that can handle that suit better than anything, and he's hurting you, which you shouldn't be allowing because then he needs a denser suit. You need different materials then to actually also, you know, create his skill. Because biting on a suit, half-competition suit full, see what happens if you give him the most dense sleeve in the world, like a brick that he has to hit.

And then say, now, all the way to the back maulers, and I'll close your mouth, see what happens. You'd be surprised. I've seen dogs that all of a sudden, they need to go back to the number two of the young dog sleeve to then build themselves up again to the adult sleeve. And they were killing people in that suit. You see, I come from a different world. Like, unless your puppy is biting on a Belgian ring suit when he's eight months, now we're talking grip. Because if you put that dog on a half-competition suit, it is going to hurt people really bad. Right, right. Hurt people. You're not going to give your arm with that dog. No way. Well, I think what you see a lot in this country, too, you know, a lot of the bite sports stuff with a lot of the newer people. And this will irritate people, too, so you're not the only one. There's a lot of macho stuff going on. You know? And they put a lot of time and effort into flashy videos and workouts and doing all these things. And they're not really focusing on learning the language of the dog, learning how to read dogs, learning how to work the dog. You know? And that's not even my world. But dogs are dogs. And if you're going to bring out the best in the dog, no one cares if you're running a 5K with a bite suit on. What about the damn dog? I think they're focusing, you know, on the wrong thing here. I don't want to see you do burpees in a bite suit. That's not going to bring out the best in the dog. You know? To me, that's just a bunch of flash for video purposes, you know? Yeah. I think if it's done well, I think both worlds can meet, like, the macho world. Because, I mean, there's a lot of testosterone in the protection world. And there's some people that really love dog trainings. It looks cool. It's tough. Like, I can see that to an extent. But like you just said, you can't neglect what build these dogs, what, you know, it takes to build them to their best potential. And that's where a lot of things are overlooked. And that's why you have a lot of imports of trained dogs, right? Not just the puppies. Also trained dogs. Sure. That's it. Yeah? Give me the trained dog. And let's be honest here. In this country, in Belgium, I can't speak for the Dutch people. So, the people from Holland, please don't take that personal. But in Belgium, if somebody has a really good dog, but I'm talking a really, really good dog, you've got to convince them to sell it. Yeah. Yeah, right. Right. You're not going to convince them. In Holland, it's more efficient. You've got the KNPP PH1 certificate, and it's going out the door. That's the name of the game, right?

There's only a few people that keep those dogs. But most of the time, it's going out the door. In Belgium, no way. If you've got that dog that everybody's looking at, hey, when is he coming out with that dog? He's not selling it. You need a lot of money to buy that dog. Hey, listen, there's plenty of people here who have bought dogs from there that think they got that dog. Yeah, but it's not. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. It's not. I know. Exactly. So, do you deal with behavior cases at all? Is it all performance? Well, I do have a lot of questions of behavior. But to be honest, that's not really my expertise to start with. Sure. Of course, I'm not a dum-dum. So, I know when it comes to aggression and these working breeds. And I've been at the police for many, many years. And I've dealt with some aggression cases. But am I in the best position to give behavioral advice? I would say probably not. And plus, you know, I am a little bit of a performance trainer, as you said. So, I like to elevate people, their skill set. So, if they just call me up and say, look, I have a problem. This is my problem. They're not my client. I just redirect them to other trainers. Sure. Because… Ain't it amazing, though, how you can get criticized for excelling in an area of dog training? Like you said earlier, yeah, but can he do this? Can he do that with a husky? Or will he work with this dog that's trying to kill everyone? Like, in this industry, people will take something good. And what you do is good. Very good. And they always try to turn it into a negative. You know, I watched the interview with you and Denise, and it was fantastic. You know, and both of you made a lot of great points. Thanks. I'm very open-minded. I'm never going to hate on someone because they don't believe in tool. I don't care what someone does. Unless you're mistreating the animal, I don't care what you do. You know what I mean? But when I saw some of the comments toward you from her people, and some of the comments toward her from her people, I was like, this is why we get nowhere. Like, I guess she recently got rid of her dog, right? She competes in dog sports. And she caught hell for that. So in their mind, she got rid of her dog because she's a so-called force-free trainer, and she can't handle it. But when I'm sitting here and I'm thinking, I can name 100 different sport dog people that have gotten rid of dog after dog after dog because they couldn't get that particular dog where they wanted to. You know what I mean? And when you focus on that kind of bullshit, it does nothing for anyone. You know?

What do you think with the e-collar stuff that you guys go through there in Europe, of course, losing? Yeah. So in Europe, it's becoming a problem, to be honest. I mean, this country especially is like, here's where it all started, man. 1899, got the first operational police dog. 1904, we got the first trials. Like, I know the president of the FMBB, Johan Wekazen, phenomenal guy, really, really nice guy. And, you know, talking to him, it's like, wow, have we been doing this that long? I talked to him just a few weeks ago, and he showed me all the archives and the pictures of them. Did you know, like, in the early 1900s, people went to a trial in a suit? Like, they were suited up. They got the tie and everything. It was crazy. It was classy. If you compare that to today, like, man, that's a lot of difference. You see, but we've been doing it for so long, and it's been a process to build these dogs. I'm talking working dogs, okay? Such a process to, you know, create the bloodlines, to get them where they're at now today, to showcase them, to display them as ambassadors for the best police dogs in the world, et cetera. And now we have these small-minded politicians that want to just get some votes in and say, hey, we're going to ban this thing. So every professional out there, everybody that's doing a great job, everybody that's supporting, you know, these animals to become great working dogs or law enforcement, military, or competitors, or just breeders to make sure that law enforcement keeps having these dogs, et cetera. We're going to pull the plug on you, and you guys got to go back to the old ages. Come on. The e-collar was made for a reason. It was made for a reason to communicate on a distance. Was it great at that time? No. But what it can do today? I mean, it could do a lot of great things. And that kind of mentality where we're going to bury everything and everyone just because we want those votes, because we want to be popular here. We're saying that there was abuse, and I'm reversing that. Well, the only guys like, when there's a discussion, I don't understand why anybody touches this. I've been a law enforcement for nearly 20 years, right? The canine unit also takes care of abuse with dogs. They call it, hey, there's a dog, whatever incident, they send the canine unit in. All right, so nearly 20 years in the books as a police officer and over 10 years as a canine handler, I have not got any abuse case with an e-collar. Right. But the non-e-collar users, we had so many cases, so many cases of abuse.

So why is that the e-collar user is like almost demonized, and it's actually when we're talking about the numbers and statistics, it's the non-e-collar users that are responsible for all the abuse. So I'm thinking, why are they aiming their arrows? Okay, maybe they want to regulate something. That would be different. If they want to say, hey, we might not want to get everybody in it, but then again, I'm thinking, okay, that's basically saying as a governing politician or agency or whatever, you're saying, you guys are stupid. You can't handle any of that. Oh, but you're allowed to get a 60, 70, 80-pound crazy drive dog. There's no law for that. You can just walk into anybody's breeder business and say, I got the money. Where can I make this restoration on this dog? And if he's high-driven, you could say, I got this much. Will you sell them to him? 90% will say, okay, you got him. And then what? You see, there's no law for that. How come there's a law to ban a tool, but there's no law to keep you from buying this crazy dog that's going to cause mayhem perhaps in anybody's hands? Yeah. How do you understand the logic? I'm trying to find – that's why I invited Denise because I wanted to talk to somebody to find sense and logic in their thinking process. And the only process that I could find was they're always talking about abuse and the people are incompetent and the people that are messing up. But based on what? Show me the numbers. Yeah, they made a video maybe behind the scenes somewhere and they were pushing a button on a dog. There could be a million videos of people abusing without that tool. So, I mean, how is that even comparable on, you know, if you see how many e-collars are sold and like professional ones, like the ones, the brands you mentioned and how much abuse there is with people buying, investing in that, investing in a trainer, in that tool. I mean, are they going to make mistakes sometimes? Yeah. But if you – and that's a little bit what annoyed me a lot with Denise's conversation is when the word discomfort came into the equation, all of a sudden there was a separation. You bring discomfort. I'm not bringing any discomfort. Like if you really believe you're going to train a high-level working dog without any sort of discomfort, I'm the first in a row now to sit here and see, okay, let me show you everything you did. Sure. I hired an R-plus trainer myself. She's coming in January to work for me. R-plus with a high-drive dog. And we respect each other, but we're also going to show what it can do without, but how much skill it also will take. But we also have to be realistic.

It's not going to be for everyone. Yeah, but here's the thing, Nino. Yeah. We're failing as an industry in educating the general public when it comes to the tool. That's where the big numbers are because if you spoke to a million everyday dog owners, their idea of what an e-collar is, what a shot collar is, is completely skewed to what it was 40 years ago. So we're failing in educating the general public there, right? And when it comes to the R-positive people, when it comes to the purely positive people, I work with them all the time. I've never had one. I've had them come to my seminars. Some of them came on the down low to be sneaky and cause problems. Not one of them ever caused a problem. And every single time someone does that, they'll say to me, I had no idea that you could use the tool like that. That's not what I've seen people doing. That's because what they see is the Jeff Gilmans of the world going on YouTube bragging about his lack of ability and shows him frying dogs. And that's what the purely positive side use. That's what they think everyone does. So they think if you're not a purely positive trainer, everyone trains the same way. And that couldn't be further from the truth, you know? And so I've been a big mouth about the e-collar for a really long time. All right. So, Larry, I love it that you've touched this because this is one of the, you know, the biggest issues, as you said. But I'm going to throw a stone here. Why is it that all manufacturers, and there is no exception, and especially the ones that are on the lower end of price as well, every single one of them advertises as this is going to stop your dog from doing things. Stop. Always stop. You're right. You're right. And then, and you just mentioned Martin System. Now we have a high-level trainer who produces, who manufactures collars. Why is he not making tutorials on, hey, this is what you can do with this thing? He's in the best position because he's making them, and he's a trainer. For decades, there was not a trainer that was manufacturing collars as well. They were maybe giving advice. They were definitely not making them. So, I think there's also responsibility on the high-end collar manufacturers that are going to have to give us a guideline, not us, but just in general. Like, hey, guys, we're making something different here. We're making a difference, and this is what this tool can do, and not just talk about the features. Like, nobody cares about the features. If you don't know what it takes, like, when you start this, what can you use this? Show me this manual, okay? Then show it to me. Not just read it.

Show it to me. And that's what I'm missing a little bit. So, like, across the board for every manufacturers, but then especially if you're going to the high-end ones, these are the ones that lead the industry with their innovative technology. And they've got to set the line and say, guys, what are you talking about always stopping dogs? No, we're actually making dogs do things. We're teaching them. And I think their voice has got to be a little bit louder here. Sure. Well, part of the problem, too, you know, is there's a separation on the e-collar users. There's still a lot of high-level trainers that don't believe that you can enhance the performance with the collar. I believe it. You believe it. A lot of people believe it because they've seen it. They've tried it a different way. But there's still people out there that have a lot of followers and then preach. It's still just an aversive. It's still just punishment. You know, you saw with the conversation that me and Ivan had, I'm sure, on YouTube. That was a disaster. That created more separation than anything. You mean Ivan is against the collar? No, no, no, no, no, not at all. It's just that the conversation didn't really go well. And we had a lot of disagreements on that because, to me, teaching it a certain way is really important for the general public. The big numbers of people are going to put that tool on their dog. And so I've been a big mouth about it for years. How could I put something out there, information out there, where I can get the general public to stop screwing their dogs up? How could I show them that this tool can benefit them? Because no other tool is going to keep the Rottweiler in the home with the 70-year-old couple. Now, you may not like that a 70-year-old couple has a strong dog. But the fact is that happens every day. Happens a lot. And that is the best tool to the dog. To stop him from doing things? No. For everything. Everything. For everything. To take out the physical incapabilities of the human and make everything an equal playing field without having to be so forceful. So the statement that I hate, one of the statements I hate the most, two statements. One is, this dog is a good candidate for an e-collar. Wood dog is not a good candidate for an e-collar. I don't get that. Reverse it. Yeah. Yeah. And the other one is, I don't get that. I really don't understand that whatsoever. That kind of drives me crazy. You know? But I don't know. We have a lot of work. We have a lot of work to do there on that. Yeah. Yeah. But the problem is also people like yourself and like myself. I've put videos with e-collar without e-collar.

You get stigmatized for it. Simple as that. Because they're going to say, e-collar user. All right. We're not going to look at this because you don't want to use it. Also respect that. Because like you just said, we got to respect everybody. Like if you don't want to, why would you put something in somebody's hands that they don't really want? So you first got to talk to them and see, you know, what causes this like aversion of e-collar. But one of the things that strikes me the most is, I just wanted to say something. My daughter came in and I lost it. Give me a second, Larry. I did the same thing. The other statement I was going to say when my daughter walked in was, I love when they think it's the lazy way to train. Because what they don't understand is, if someone comes to me, I don't make anyone use an e-collar. That's up to them. But when someone comes to me, if they don't want to use an e-collar, I'm thrilled. Because that's a lot less work for me. Because if I have to teach someone with no dog training ability, or even if it's a dog trainer, if I have to teach them the proper use of the tool, that's a lot of work on me. Because I have to make sure it's right. I have to make sure they understand it. And so when I don't have to teach something that, that's easy. That's the lazy way to train for me. Because that's cake. Hey, you just want to learn how to handle a leash and use food and use toys? Hey, we could do this. This is very easy. You know what I mean? Something an add-on, right? So exactly that's my point I wanted to make is, if it's a push on a button. Because that's what it is. Anyone can push on a button. Anybody that watches TV can push on this button to turn it on and off. So that means if the e-caller is being operated by a push on a button, virtually anybody could do it. But here's then, that's when the skill comes in. Sure. But when are you eligible to use this kind of stuff? Because it's multitasking, right? You're not just going to hold the one button and then expect everything to happen. You're going to have to do different things. You're going to have to use different skills first to build that up. And that's where the secret is, is then, you know, I don't advertise my e-caller class because I'm an advocate of first, you know, making sure that people possess some basic skills. Right. Able to handle things and understand things. And that's when I think, okay, it could be a great add-on for somebody that's willing to put in work, that understands that, you know, reinforcing positively is still one of the, you know, biggest foundations ever.

And of course, through science, we've learned that, yes, if you combine the two, dogs learn faster. But you always got to make sure that the balance is not being tipped over into the easy route where you're going to do things fast and the dog's going to suffer over it. And I think the dog tells you a lot in his behavior and his demeanor and his energy level on how you treated the animal and what you're doing. And that's something that you can't just hide. You can't deny. If you messed up, it's going to show. But because the ratio of the possibility for you to mess up by a push, a single push of a button is still severely high, I think that's causing a lot of people to go, I'm going to touch that thing. I bought it, put it in the drawer because they're going to mess up my dog. Look, you're going to mess up everything you probably do without the collar as well. So that's just a way that you got to see the things is if you're new to this, don't be afraid to make mistakes, but don't make them with the collar yet. Okay. Exactly. Well said. Mistakes. Make a few errors. Make a few timing errors. All these kind of things. So you realize, you adapt, and you say, okay, now I'm ready, right? And you're still going to make mistakes. But guess what? If you're not going to put that thing on the max, you think the dog's going to suffer over that? A dog that's used to be in work, a dog that's used to have no leash on him, a dog that's used to be in this high drive equation, whatever. Do you think he's going to care? He's probably not even going to feel that because the higher the drive, lower sensitivity comes, et cetera. So I think it's just giving confidence and trust to people, but always build on previous skills that they should have earned to be in the spot. Like, I'm going to push some buttons here legitimately because you got the skill and you can make the right assessment to do so. And that just takes a lot of people like yourself and myself and multiple other trainers that really want to go out there and educate. But the problem is you get so stigmatized for it that I got the newspaper here on my ass because I did an e-collar university, right, here in Belgium. And the anti-lobby, well, I don't want to mention their names. They called the newspaper and they literally put in the newspaper, they're going to zap young dogs and puppies in this e-collar university. You got to stop them. You got to stop them. Wow. It was still legal to use it. They had nothing to stand on. But that's what they try to portray me is that I'm going to call university to zap dogs with this thing.

And like you said, you have some people then, you know, coming in and seeing if they can stir up things. And they go, hey, but not a single collar was used to it today. Yes, because nobody was eligible and none of these dogs were eligible because you first have to build some other stuff. And like, oh, my God. And, you know, thank you. Well, listen, if you when you see me working my dogs, you never see e-collars on them only because I do it on purpose. Unless it's an e-collar video, no matter what you do, people are always going to assume it's because of the tool. Oh, yeah. And so that's why I do everything with, you know, I've been at a working dog event once and my wife was with me at this one and she said something about it. Luca was the only dog there that wasn't on a leash, had no collar on him, nothing. I did it on purpose. And I worked him every place in front of everybody, every situation. And I still heard people saying my wife heard it. She's the one who pointed it out. That's that e-collar guy. And they said it in a good way. It wasn't in a negative way. Yeah. But I was still the e-collar guy. And I'm looking around and I'm the only one with a dog with nothing on. Yeah. Absolutely nothing. You know. But that's the label they stick to you. Laravi, I love the fact you touched this because it also is, I think, the opposite. So let's say somebody portrays himself as R+, only positive. This person might not be the stupidest person or whatever. They can have the same vision and goal as us. But because they're already sold to the concept of their community, which is R+, you can't go back. Now, right? Because then you kind of betray your people or you betray this community. So they'd rather be stuck in the mud or whatever problem they're facing because now they can't go to the other side because that's how they made it. They made it look like it's another side. Not for us because we do R+, right? And we do negative. So for us, it doesn't matter. But for them, it's like a statement. I'm R+. It's like you tap yourself in the chest. I'm not going to be like those people. You stigmatize them. You're also responsible. These people get an e-call or username. So you can't go through that. You can't refer to that. And I think that's maybe why there's a little bit of heat coming to their knees because they might think, hey, but if you – she's definitely capable of using a tool like that because she's a good dog trainer. Sure. And not even she wants to, but she can't now because that's just the way it is. Why am I saying that?

Because we had a professor here who writes publications on a European level, and she came here because a professor that we did this talent thing, this talent scam for dogs and handlers. That's why she came. She never came to us to talk about an e-caller. You know what the first thing was she mentioned? Look, guys, I love what you guys are doing. You're mapping talents and skills and all that kind of stuff. She said, scientifically, I love it. She says, I got one problem with you working with you. There's one condition. She says, on your website, it says you use e-calls. You have an e-call university. She said, you got to take that off your website, and then I'll help you. I said, wow. Okay, so then we had to have this whole e-call discussion, which I think she had to admit, like, yeah, there's no answer to what you're saying here. The top tier special forces, they use it. Like, what's the answer here? All your research. Have you actually, you know, came up with parameters that not only examined the breed or the certification, which is police dog, but also the talents. Were you able to classify the skills of the handler and so on? So we went this whole different route. And then she went, oh. Well, anyways, guys, I loved what she was here for two hours. I love what you guys do and what we talked about. She says, but you know my standpoint? She's in the lobby, actually also advising the government to ban it. She can't go back. That's cognitive dissonance. She can't go back. Even though she said, guys, I respect what you do here. This is really great stuff. But can't. Sorry. Take it off the website. I'm on your case. And that's a problem. They sold their legitimate, you know, vote to, look, we're anti. Osama's going to stay. Yeah. It doesn't matter what you prove. If you can take out the dog that killed Osama Bin Laden, for example, he apprehended him. And that's a dog trained with an e-collar. We're still going to deny that that dog needed that. Sure. Even on the high top tier level with the most important job in the world apprehending a terrorist. And if you say that dog is e-collar trained, well, I'm sure he could have done it without, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. I got to meet him a couple of weeks ago, too. It was pretty cool down at the Police Canine Magazine seminar here in Nashville. So that was pretty cool. But you're 100% right. One of those handlers? Yeah. His handler. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. Pretty cool. Cool story. The book is really good, too. And I'm not a fan creator. No Waterinary Dog. Who wrote it then? His handler wrote it. I think, is it Will Chesney? I think his name is. Oh, okay.

Will Chesney. Yeah. I believe that's his name. The famous guy. I keep the other Special Forces guy. I also wrote a few books. Mike Ritland? Yeah. Yeah. Mike. Yeah. Mike's got some good books out there, too. You know? But that's pretty cool. So tell the people something they'd be surprised to know about you. I'm afraid of dogs. Nobody expects that. Yeah. That's. Yeah. You're right. That's. I think I'm born doing this stuff. Look, I was 27. Never even touched a working dog. When that dog barked behind my back, I lit up. Like, I jumped. Really? Literally. I jumped. I was like, I can't do it. I remember, look, the first dog I got was an adult dog. I wanted to join the Canine Unit. Told you a little bit about that. So I was like, yeah, but I can't start with a puppy. It's going to take ages. So let me just try to recruit an adult dog, right? Got this adult dog. And long story short, he's in the backseat of my car. My Alfa Romeo, right? He's in the backseat. I'm looking in the mirror and I'm seeing this dog pant in my rear window mirror. I was like, I was already feeling uncomfortable because he was quite big. I went into my kitchen, got the dog out. He's standing in front of me and he's looking at me with that face. The mallet will look. And really, fear struck me. Wow. I had to bring him back. I couldn't. I could not. And I felt like shit because I was like, what kind of a loser am I? I bought this dog. I mean, I stole this guy's time. He gives me this dog and I'm sending it. I mean, I'm giving it back. Why? I was like, hey, yeah. You know what? My girlfriend saw this dog. She doesn't want any of the piece of it because he's too big. It was me. I was the one afraid of the dog. It was my girlfriend. I was afraid of the dog. So that's when I- What changed that? How did that change? Yeah. I knew there's like, because I had it in my mind. Look, it had to happen. So I was like, I already failed. Damn. I already started with the biggest failure, right? You can't even take a dog out of the car and get it in your kitchen. You're bringing it back. How are you going to make this work? So that's when I knew there's only one chance I got now, because I got to buy a puppy. Not care about, am I going to make it to the canine unit? If you ever want to do this, you got to buy a puppy. That's what changed everything. That's when I went into my mindset. Like the track and field mindset is, I want what my Olympian friend has, what he can do. And I did that with the dogs. I was like, I was in it every day. I couldn't talk. I like that. What did your buddy compete in? I'm sorry? What did your Olympian friend compete in? It's a 200 meter.

He's a European champion, 200 meters. So he did an indoors 2066. It's insane. Like in the old tarmac. Wow. Yeah. Track, you know, that's insane. 2066. He did 1014. He's white. We've got to mention that, because obviously white people are usually not that fast. So 1014 on the 100 meter, but 200 was a specialty. And I think his record is 20, 20, 20 outdoors, 20, 24, probably with a little bit of wind. So 2040, I think 2042 without wind. That was second all time of Belgium. And he made it to the Olympics, Atlanta. So he ran in the, was it semifinal or final with Johnson? Michael Johnson? Yeah. Yeah. But that was Stevens. Yeah. So anyways, he got some, you know, eyes on him. That's awesome. All right. You wake up in the morning and you decide you're going to compete in IGP. Oh, me? You got four other guys and girls, four other people. Doesn't matter if they compete in IGP or not. Yeah. Who's your dream team to go to the world championship? Oh, and it has to be IGP, right? That's the sport you're competing in, but you could use anybody from any discipline and dog training. Wow. Well, of course I got to go with Mario. The old, that's the goat. Like he can make a tattoo on it before somebody gets a seventh title. He's going to get it, I think. So he's actually still active. So that's the goat. So I got to go with Mario. And probably, how many people can I choose? You could pick four people total. Four people total. I'm going with Emanuela also. I just love her. You know, she's energetic, super nice person. R plus. But like, if you watch her for a second, you know, I'm going to watch and train dogs. That's the kind of energy she gives you. So having somebody like that, just mentally, somebody that helps you, that, you know, has no bad demeanor in her by any means, somebody trustable. So I would go with her also. I would probably go, you know, it's hard for me because if I go with, you know, people that are technically in their craft, the only guy that I know that sticks out is Mario more than anyone. So then I would just choose a bunch of friends, I guess, that I feel comfortable with. So, yeah, I would go with Becky, for example, is somebody I love to work with. She's, you know, one of a kind. You better tell your buddy Mario to what he's going to get a lot of attention now. Everyone's going to be looking him up and sending friend requests. They should. They should. You know, he's phenomenal. If you're an IGP, like true lover, you don't know this guy, there's a hole in your resume. That's, I'll definitely be, I'll probably be calling him probably.

What's your morning routine look like from the more time you wake up in the morning? What time do you get up in the morning? Usually between 5 and 6. I'd love to do the 4 a.m. club, but that's a tough one. Why? Because you got to get early to bed, actually. You can't do 11, 11.30 and then get up before. That's going to kill you. So I'd love to do that because the amount of work you can put in and the edge you have on other people, just that kind of feeling alone is something that I really like. But, you know, 5.30 is probably a good hour. You can find me. And then the first thing I do is I watch the damn phone. I know it's a horrible habit, but, you know, messages, emails. So it's something that wakes me up, the light of the phone. So 15 minutes, right? And then I get up and the first thing I do is dogs. So I put on a jacket, a dog jacket, and I have some food in there because usually when he's awake, he's quite active and I can put in a few moves. He does his business. Go out to Rocky. He does his business. And then I go back, take a shower and stuff, and then I get on the computer. So actually, you know, I'm also doing a lot of desk work. It's not always dogs. It's watching other people work. They submit their things or whatever. They got emails. They got questions. And then basically I calm down until it's that time again to work the dog again. So it's very actually, I would say, how do you say the word in English? Monotonous. Is that? Yeah. That's how you could call it. It's not the rock and roll life. For sure not. It's a lot of the same stuff every day. But that's why you got to love it, you know? You got to ask about it. If you're going to do, you know, the same thing a million times, you better love it. Because else your life's going to suck if you're going to do things you hate. So are you separating their food rations out during the day and just working throughout the day? That's right. And that's how they get all their food? Yeah. Yeah. And I don't even count the food. You know, to me, how the dog looks, like his body, his framework, you know, how fat or how skinny. But my dogs are usually not skinny. But, you know, his waist is a good indication on where he's at. Sure. And the energy that he gives you and how he comes and collects his food is going to give you a pretty good view on it. And what are you feeding? What do you feed? I'm feeding a combination of raw and kibble. And the kibble is not baked. It's a process. They call it like, I don't know what, help me out here. So you have baked kibble and then you have compressed. I think it's compressed. Yeah. Compressed kibble.

I think that's what Bart was using too. It sounds similar. Bigger pellets. We have the same sponsor. But I already used it before he was my, they were my sponsor because it's just really good food. And what kind of raw are you feeding? The raw, it's called Complete Excellence. And it's, I think there's beef in it. There's, it's like a, it's not only protein. It's, it's also, it's got rice in it, it's got vegetables in it, it's got the vitamins in it. Is it like a patty? Is it like a patty type thing? I don't know what a patty is, but they. Like a burger type thing? Oh yeah, it could be. It could be because there are some manufacturers that put it in like the burger thing. But I, you know, I talked to them because I know them personally. And I said, look, if you want trainers to use this because they want to like, they want like trainers to use it as an advocate for the, their business. I said, you need, you're going to come up, have to come up with something easy that we, because now I got to do all the cutting. I'm not a, look, I don't like to cut up food the whole day. Right. Especially dogs. So why aren't you getting cubes? And they love the idea. And they, they went out there and just, you know, already cut them for you. So basically you can just take out the cubes you need, which is like, okay, I'm going to train dog. 10 cubes is good. 20, whatever. And yeah, that's how you roll. You don't have to make your hands dirty because people don't understand. You can train with raw, but you just can't have it defrosted like completely because then it's like mush. So you need to defrost it until it's not frozen, but also not mushy. So you can hold it and your hands get a little bit stany, but not too much. Okay. That's how you want to use raw. Right. Right. Let me put on the lights here. If you're going to go for a few more minutes. Yeah. We'll wrap it up here in a few. Yeah. Sure. I don't want to keep you up too late. No problem. Yeah. What, um, what's your favorite movie? Oh, I got to go to the old times, 1994 Pulp Fiction, the classic of all time for me and the matrix. Those two, I would say those two, because those always come to mind. Your favorite musician. Um, tough, tough, because I would say, you know, I would go back to my youth, but, um, tough one. Um, the game, the game, because now I'm listening to the game a lot. It's a rapper. So yeah, I know the game. Yeah. The roughness they have and then the, the hard life they had, and then they pick themselves up. And then the stories they tell sometimes in these rap songs. I'm really a fan of like, I can hear the rawness, which I love the authenticity in it.

And I kind of, I relate to that. So I listened to a lot of older school rap. People are surprised by that, but that's true. Yeah. I'm surprised too. Yeah. I'm a, I'm a diehard Tupac fan and, and, and all a little bit older ones. What's your favorite meal? You're on death row. You get one meal to pick. Wow. I would definitely go then with something with curry in it. So I would say some, um, shrimps with curry, uh, and rice. Yeah. That would do the job. And that's pretty simple. That's pretty simple. Oh yeah. You know, go ahead. People use like simple food on that road. Sure. It's usually simple things. Yeah. Your, your favorite activity outside of dog training. Oh, with gym. Yeah. Yeah. Lifting weights. And real quick, like, I don't want to keep you too much. Why do you think there's such a lack of attention to fitness in dog training? Like it's so important to be able to have the energy and some fitness. If you're going to try to perform at a high level, you know, why do you think people don't focus on themselves more to be better with the dog? It comes back to why do people only focus on motor skills for dogs? Why do people only think of how I teach this dog things? And you don't even know what it takes to become good at something, but you're respecting this dog to be good at something. And it's also, you know, time scheduling. It's if you have a job and you have kids and you have a dog with high maintenance, which is you want to work him, et cetera. And on top of that, you got to do the gym stuff, but you also want to sleep. You got to go to the store. There's so many things that people skip on what's best for them, which is you got to be in good health and good condition and good, you know, overall, it just makes you feel better. People that go to the gym. I don't know anybody that hates himself when they put on the hard workouts. And it's just something that it's a lifestyle. So people that don't know it, like my family, like they are not into gym stuff. They're like, man, why are you always in this gym for 20 years plus? Like, why don't you ever stop? You can't stop, man. If I stop, I'm miserable. I have to be in the gym every day. And let me tell you something. My workouts don't change much. I always work out. It's the eating and the drinking. If I'm 260 pounds, it's hard for me to get out of my recliner and go work dogs. I don't have the energy. When I'm 240 pounds, I don't sit down. I'm out working dogs nonstop, nonstop doing something. So it makes such a difference. And so when I work with someone that has a high energy dog or working type breed,

and they're either a little older in age or they're just not that fit, and you're trying to get them to keep the dog active and give the dog genetically what it needs, 20, 30 seconds into it, they're dying. And it's hard to tell someone physically you don't have what this dog needs. And that's really, really important because that is all part of it. It really is. It's all part of it. But let me elaborate on that a little bit. We're dog training coaches, right? You agree with that? Dog training coach. In order to become a coach, to be accepted as a coach, that takes many steps. It's not just about you coming in with expertise. If that's the case, you're an expert. You're not a coach. You're an expert. And you can give advice. You're not going to coach people. So coaching means that people actually want to make a change. Sure. But if you want to make a change and also have impact on their personal life, where they're actually going to pick up weights, just because they met you as a dog trainer, remember, as an expert about dogs. Now, all of a sudden, you're going to talk about them lifting weights. You see, that's tough for people to accept the fact. So I think we could, but that relation will take time. That's not somebody that comes in the door and says, I got a behavioral issue, and they're going to walk out with a gym set and a pair of shoes and a leash. That's something that takes time for me to educate myself on what does it take to be a coach, working with a professor who does nothing else but coach people. For me, it was life-changing because it got me to put myself in perspective and see, okay, what actually makes somebody accept you as a coach? And the answer to that question is very important. It's not something I can explain in two minutes. 100%. It's extremely valuable and rare to find. And when you find the right person, that will change everything for you. You will know it. Like, if you don't walk away when you're with that person feeling better and inspired to do everything, then you're with the wrong person. Yeah. That's all there is to it, you know? And I truly believe that wholeheartedly also. We've covered a lot of stuff, you know? You covered some, like, so much. I didn't, like, go over each question that I wrote because you've answered them. You've answered them one way or the other. You know what I mean? Like, the answers are in there. Look, I love what you do. I've got a ton of respect for what you do. Like, you're just killing it out there. I know. I see more and more young trainers that I know taking your course. And I see, without even knowing they're taking your course,

I know they're taking your course by what they're doing with their dogs. Yeah. I love it. So that's pretty cool. Tell people where they can find all your stuff and where they could jump on your site and sign up for your course and all that stuff. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for saying that, Larry. Always means a lot that, you know, people appreciate what you kind of made into your life work. And that's what we've done now with these classes is, you know, when the COVID, you know, kicked in, I was just doing workshops, seminars and stuff. So all of a sudden that changed. So I did a few webinars that represent, you know, all of the theoretical concepts, added with some demos. But, you know, since then I've been working hard with pro cameras, with editors, like we got to make something or I want to make something and I'm on my way to do it with the MVP. That is legitimately the best manual for working dogs. And, you know, that's the bigger class. But people that like these concepts, they want to understand how movement works, how talents work, how skills combine and how everything gets into place. They can go to the webinar. It's all on scsk9.com or Facebook, scsk9 or Instagram. There's a shop. So, and we also like to guide people. So if they're doubting, like, what do you need? Because there was not a whole lot of classes, but still, if they don't know what they need, we like to help people personally. They give us a little bit of feedback on, you know, your dog's age, where you're at, what's your experience, what are you aiming for? I think it's always a big one. What do you aim for, right? And sometimes people say, hey, I just had somebody here. He said, I want to buy your MVP. I said, why? He's a guy that I know, like personally. He said, yeah, I'm getting a new dog, man. You're phenomenal. I love what you do. I want MVP. I said, okay, what exactly do you want from a dog? He says, I just wanted to, you know, sit, stand, come here, heal a little bit. The MVP is not your thing, man. That's a performance. That's something that you want to own. It's something you want to do on the daily. It's not something, hey, I have a dog. I want to take the MVP. So I want to make sure that the cast is good for what I have to offer. Like, I don't need to, you know, sell to, you know, pet owners a whole time. Sure. That wouldn't make sense. It would go like, yeah, I was a little too much for what I wanted to do. And you don't want that. So, you know, I'm always happy to know other people also and say, hey, if you have that kind of issue, that's a great trainer. Or if you want that, that's a great trainer.

I don't believe in the one key fits all. That's also one of the main elements here. I'll never say, hey, you know what? What I do, that's the best thing you can do. What I am saying is the MVP because that's going to give you so many insights and so many technical stuff. And so coming in from so many angles from students, from guest trainers, that's what I believe in. It's not the one approach that's going to, you know, help you all. It's what other people are struggling with, what other trainers are doing that I find inspiring and that we want to put in there as well. Along with my, you know, methodology and, you know, energy management of dogs. I always thought it was about time, you know, having the time to work the dog. It's not. For me, it's not. If people ask me, Rocky, right? Rocky, the dog they love the most. How many hours you put in that dog? To be honest, 10 minutes. It can't be. Same thing with Luca. They say, how do you live with a dog like that? I said, what do you think? He's like this in the house? And how many hours a day do you work in hours? I'm lucky if I work him 20 minutes a month, you know, when he was at his best. I just don't get to work. We train dogs. We don't get a lot of time to train our own dogs. You know what I mean? I just try to make what I do right with the dog. Exactly. You just said it. The time you have is not relevant. It's the energy you create when you work. Sure. And how that inspires you again now to help people. I'm sure Luca has been responsible for you helping so many people in the world because that dog gave you so much energy, gave you so much belief in your own competencies. Yeah. You had to go out there and give a message and help people. Sure. And I feel the exact same way. That's why I cannot hate on other trainers because they have the same dream and vision that I have. They can disagree. But I wouldn't, you know, unless somebody is really disrespected, you know, calling you out and not having this kind of conversation. I'm looking right here. Anybody that wants to have a conversation, anyone will do it live. I don't need a script. I don't need to prepare. We can talk about anything. That's right. And same with the dogs. Let's go out and train. You know, you've been following me, Larry, for a long time, I think. I never came up with videos talking ever. I only did clips showing stuff with the dogs, showing stuff. That's it. Yeah. I didn't want to talk. You know, before I actually realized that I had a big message to make, I was already 10 years plus in at least. And I'm even working with Bart. You know, these people, I was busy with my police job.

I didn't care about any of that. Like, being a coach is not something that I aspire. It's something that I had to do. Now it has become a mission. Sure. I've seen people fail. I've seen people struggle. I've seen people give up. I've seen people with great potential not using it, vice versa, for the dogs. And that's my mission. I got to make sure that I extract people's skills, that I can help them with their dogs, and just create this, you know, a plus for this entire industry that thinks about working dogs in a great way, which is going to help law enforcement, military, you know, peep service dogs. Anything that has to do with giving a job to a dog, that's where I want to be a part of for sure. And especially when it comes to, you know, my specialty is law enforcement and obedience and that kind of stuff. And working dogs in general, the shepherds, you know, for sure are the ones that I work the most. So if I would say if you have a shepherd, yeah, I'm probably the guy you want to speak to. If you're liking what I do, not if you're having, you know, like there's people I want to be active. Like this style is for active people. You've got to be in it. Like we had a question, by the way. I also wrote a few. Yeah, you could. Hey, you have any questions you want to get to, Nino? Go ahead. I just didn't want to keep you too long. No, no. But it's like two hours that I covered. So I think how long are we in? Like 145. So we can do a few more. But somebody asked me, hey, difference between shaping and luring, for example. I think both are really great to teach things. But I have to be involved. It's just one of those things. I can't. I don't have patience. I don't know about you, but I don't have patience. I got to feel this. I got to control. I got to control this dog's technique. I just have to be a part of it. That's what makes me happy. So but for people that just like to look at things and more work on the timing and analyzing and do not care about speed too much in the beginning or precision. Yeah, I think it could work great. So it all depends on what you like as well. And I always ask people, okay, what do you enjoy? And what I what I'm surprised about is that actually people that are not used to moving. But once they start moving with this dog, it's like, I really enjoy this. Yeah, sure. I mean, like they want to do more. So that's cool. I had a few questions here that we might go over really quickly is we kind of answered this one. Why is there so much animosity in the dog training world? I think, Larry, you definitely explained that. But if you want to add something, I'd say go ahead.

Well, I honestly, I think we all get our haters, right? Mm hmm. I've had some very vocal haters. Not a lot. But there's some. And what I've noticed. Out of all the people that are very vocal and spend their time going after other trainers. They're not very successful. They don't have a big following. But the second they go after someone that has a little bit of a following, it gets them attention. Even if it's negative attention, it still gets them attention. And if you look at the main culprits, some are on the purely positive side. Some are on the balanced side. They're very unfulfilled people in their professional life. They're struggling. They need to ask people, can I come do a seminar for you? Come join my stuff. Hey, who wants a seminar? And they're very unfulfilled in their personal life. They're missing something. You have to understand your lack of character when you spend your own precious time paying attention to someone else and so consumed by them to where you can get on with the few people that do follow you and spend an hour talking about what someone else does. Why not just show what you do? Why not just show it? Look, I got in this little mix a couple years ago, you know, where there were a couple of very popular trainers putting out awful work in the pet dog industry, having people destroy a lot of dogs. And I found myself always being negative, talking about negative things because I always had them in mind. And it took me a while to realize I wasn't benefiting anyone. I wasn't helping anybody. I was just spewing negativity because I hated seeing what I was seeing. Then it dawned on me one day. This isn't helping anyone. And it's making me miserable. I'm becoming consumed with it. So from that day, I said, you know what? I'm just going to show what I do and let people choose. Yeah. Right. If I show them a different way, someone might say, hey, whoa, wait a second. Why is he saying the opposite? And his dogs look like that because no dog ever leaves here looking shitty. Never. Right. That was the best thing I ever did for sure. So that's why I speak on it. You let your actions speak for yourself. That's it. And you gave a voice to it. Because I actually had somebody who was funny said, why does he talk so much? Why he talks? It was really funny because you do talk a lot. But you know why, Nino? I know. I hear that too. But people ask me to. Otherwise, I wouldn't. And I don't talk as much as I used to. But I know I've got a lot of shit about the whole car thing, talking in the car. Well, people. You got that? Really? Do you know how that? Oh, yeah. Do you know how that started?

People don't ask, why do you do that? Well, I'll tell you why I do that. One time I heard my phone go off and I got a message on a YouTube video. And it was a professional trainer in Ohio, a woman trainer in Ohio, that wrote to me about what she was doing with the e-collar with her dog and then talked about what her dog was doing, the screaming, the yelping, the shaking. It was bad. It was bad. I couldn't type fast enough to respond to her. So I literally pulled over and I made a video. And I told her, put the tool away and stop using it now. That's not dog training. It's abuse. You're abusing this dog. And I sent the video. I posted the video to her. That's how that started. When I did that, a lot of people watched it and said, hey, can you discuss this topic? And then can you discuss this topic? And every day I get, probably like you, anywhere between two to three to five to six hundred messages a day asking questions. I can't respond to all of them. You can't sit there and physically respond to all the phone calls, all the text messages, all the emails. So if I have 75 or 100 people that ask the same question, I'll just put it in a video and talk about it. It answers everyone's question. So all they see is some guy that likes to hear himself talk and has a huge ego. But they never say, they never ask, why do you do those videos? That's why. Right. And it's like, you're not getting paid to do that. No, I get nothing out of it. I get a lot of headache out of it. Get up. Yeah. And that's the thing. When you're on your mission, man, that's a test. People are testing you. Pull the plug, man. Pull it like you're not worth it. And then you keep going. And then, you know, you have that hardcore following now that's like, yeah, but this guy's legit. He tells what he thinks and he does what he does. Oh, and honestly, this is the last live I'm doing for a while. I'm just kind of burnt out on the whole social media thing. And so I just need to take a break. I've already agreed to be on a couple of podcasts. I'll fulfill those. But as far as me doing this, you're pretty much the last one. And I'm just going to kind of drop off and train my dog. That's just a great break. This is fun, actually. I had fun now. Yeah, this was great. I enjoyed the conversation for sure. So keep asking your questions. Yeah. So actually, I was just thinking, like, there's a podcast of, what's his name? The Special Forces. Jocko with Echo. And then they get these emails. It's kind of fun. I have the same feeling. Like, yeah, we're on the same. Yeah, this is good. I'm enjoying this.

Yeah, it's cool to talk to somebody that really is on the same mindset. So reactivity. Oh, well, I think this is one for you. Reactivity towards cats. How do I start? Honestly, and that's part of the reason why I got to stop these. And you never want to sound rude or ungrateful for people. But we've answered these questions a million times before. And it all comes down to your foundation, your training, your relationship with the animal. You have to ask yourself, why can't you tell that dog, knock the shit off, and the dog listens? Why can't you? There's a problem there. So you're not going to fix that. The average person isn't going to fix that on their own without at least speaking to someone who really knows what they're doing and evaluating the whole situation. Because if I talk to that person, it's never going to be a how-to stop your dog from chasing cats. I'm going to look at the whole picture. What are you doing with that animal, the way you're living with it inside your home, that gives that dog the right to think it has the right to go after the cat? Yeah. That's how you – there is no quick answer to that. A lot of trainers are going to tell her, put an e-collar on the dog and blast it when it goes for the cat. It's not going to fix anything. It's not going to fix anything. It's going to give more power to the anti-e-collar people. Oh, yeah. Look what they're doing. The dog has to be trained. There's no shortcut answer to that. Actually, Rallari, you should keep talking because what you say makes a whole lot of sense. And it's the fact that people reach out for these quick answers. Sometimes it's in a story and they accept a 15-second answer to something that you just explained in maybe a minute. But still then, it's a lot more to it than 15 seconds. But that's what it is today. It's the swipe world. It's the I'll go on YouTube and find out how this shit works. I'll go on Instagram and watch this guy. I'll watch a little bit of everything but still not know what you're doing. And that's when you go into the action guy again that doesn't really fully comprehend what he's doing. Right. A lot of time. It's a guy who goes to the gym 20 years. Still looks exactly the same. Yeah. If he was already looking good, you could say, okay. But most of the time, I've been in the gym for a long time too, is that people come in to get a result. They're not getting the result. And you know what? They're fine with it because they still keep showing up. That's it. They're training their docs every day, not getting a result, and say, that's fine, I guess. That's not fine. That's not fine. You got to get the results.

No. I'm not patient enough not to get results. I need to go to the best source I can find, no matter what I'm doing, no matter what I'm doing. You know? And I get people, hey, they live an hour away. Do you know a trainer near me? He says, well, I'm an hour away. Yeah, but that's kind of far. I get people that drive from California, and you're telling me an hour, you don't want to train your dog. You're a lazy fuck that shouldn't have a dog. That's all there is to it. You shouldn't have a dog. Okay? That's all there is to it. You don't want to put in the work to fix a dog that you screwed up. You're not someone I'm going to work with anyway. Sorry. Yeah. Great answer. Love that answer. Straightforward. Like, look, man, don't even want it. Get a new hobby. Yeah. That's it. I love it. Yeah. That's why we get along, I guess. Let me see what else we got. Well, it's all, like you said, topics that you probably touched a million times. Fear of aggression towards people and stuff like that. So when a stranger suddenly pets your protection dog, what do you say to them? Maybe that's a good one. What do you say to them? Because I had that happen. Like, actually, with my uniform, police dog, everything. I'm walking, all of a sudden, somebody's wrapping their hands around my dog. Yeah. What would you say to them? For that dog to feel comfortable with its surroundings, it has to believe that you can control the dog in any situation, and you can control everything around it. And if you allow people to come up and pet that dog, you're failing the dog. That's a recipe for disaster. So regular people ask me all the time, how should I greet a dog? Well, it's an easy answer. You don't. I don't greet dogs. Why do you think you should greet a dog? Dogs live through space. The way they control space. Personal space is very important to a dog. Right? Very, very important. And the second you come into that dog's space and reach out to them, now you pose a threat to most dogs. Some dogs will tolerate it, but to no dog is that the norm. You know what I mean? Absolutely. Absolutely. And so it's up to us, the handler, the owner, the trainer, whatever, is you step in front of that dog. Please don't touch my dog. You know, he's in training. They don't like that. Please respect our space. You know what I mean? And so to ask any dog to deal with that, it's unfair. And I'm always going to put the animal first. I don't care about hurting someone's feelings. If I tell you, please don't pet my dog, and you think you're going to pet it anyway, you're going to think I'm the biggest asshole you've ever met in your life because I'm not going to hold back.

The dog comes first. Yeah. Yeah. I had it happen a few times with, you know, the police dogs that. Really? Four years old. She's running in front of her parents. She sees my dog. And, of course, well, I'm just looking at the kid. All of a sudden, she runs right at my dog. She grabs the dog. Oh. Could you imagine, like, my heart almost stopped beating. You know, I had a nice, well, he already got a few people pretty good, but I didn't see the kid as a threat. He didn't respond to it. But I was like, how can this happen? Like, this could have turned out so bad. Really bad. Job on the line. This dog is going to be questioned. This is good. Like, couldn't you imagine that your dog would do that to a kid? You know, you couldn't live it yourself. So I was like, how on earth is this possible? And it happens. And it happens all the time. Absolutely. Crazy. So, yeah. So basically, you would get pretty rude if you need to. But I think that's, I mean, legitimized. Yeah, for sure. Rightfully so. What else we have? Should genetics be talked about before using an e-collar? What about that, Larry? Should genetics be talked about before using it? I don't see the relation to that. I don't see the relation to. For me, just like you, I have no specific age. I just want the dog to be full of fire, no matter what genetic traits the dog has, and have a good understanding and foundation before an e-collar has ever even thought of. But, you know, that's just the way I do things. Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree with that. So long you train your dogs until. I'm sorry. There's so many questions. I'm just trying to find a few ones that we haven't really answered indirectly. Oh, well, maybe this is a good one to end. How you raise a puppy. And basically, well, I explain a little bit of what I do on the daily versus how Larry raises a puppy. So, well, I raise all my puppies like they're working dogs, even though they're family pets first. They live in my home, although my dogs do spend a lot more time out now than they used to, especially Dante. All my dogs start off in my room. They sleep in my room in a crate. I have a very simple rule of thumb. My dogs sleep in their crate until they're one year old, no matter how well trained they are at night. One year old. They're not left loose in the house when we're not home until they're two years old. But I put those first two years into busting my ass to make self-sufficient dogs. Right. But as far as the raising and the training, I raise all my dogs, even my golden doodle, as if it's a performance dog, a working dog. So I focus on bringing the most out of that dog. I don't care what breed it is.

I want that dog. I don't really at this stage in my life yet. I don't want a dog that I can't throw a ball for, that I can't play tug with, that I can't be active with. Maybe someday I will. But for right now, I want a dog that I can be very active with. It's a dog. That's it. That first year, it's all training. It's all creating the dog I want because we're not raising a puppy. We're raising a dog. Yeah. And so in the average pet family home, one of the biggest – I just said something about this earlier. Two biggest mistakes people make. They give the puppy way too much freedom too early, and they get more dog than they can handle. They get too much dog. And that's always going to be a recipe for disaster. You're going to have a hard time. And that training starts the day that puppy comes into your home. That's it. No matter what the age is, the training starts the day it comes into your home, in my opinion. And that's how I do things. Yeah, definitely. Wow. Very great talk of yourself explaining this because I think that makes a whole lot of sense. And it's the exact same way if I have a pet tomorrow, which could be like a lab that I want to live in the house. It would be exactly the same as you said. It's going to be – the first month is going to be tough, disciplined. Crate, all that kind of stuff. And slowly, we will get to the freedom and all the perks that comes with having a great dog. Sure. That's what elevates your life and the family is having a great dog that responds to your commands, that is trustworthy, that gives you energy, that you are happy to get up in the morning. That's what you want. But unfortunately, Larry, there's a whole lot of people, probably majority, getting a serious headache of their dogs, too much, not behaved. There's freedom all over the place. And it's just a bad thing. But people have to understand you will pick the fruits later after you've sawn the seeds that will help you create something that you envisioned to be why you wanted a dog in the first place. Sure. Well said. Absolutely. Yeah. You can't spend the first few months of your puppy's life constantly correcting it. And that's what you're going to do if you give it the run in the house. Nobody want to live that dream. The dream was to have a family and a dog running around in the woods, playing with the kids, recalling dog humps. They want to envision that dream the day after. Yeah. Playing with the family. Everything's in harmony. They're loving the cat. Not chasing it. They're loving it. Right? They just want to play. But the cat can't chase the dog now because it's getting chased.

They just have a complete different perspective on things. And then in a few months, it's become a horror story. Yeah. But when I try to get on the couch, the dog growls at me. What do we do? Well, oh, damn. You're showing me. You trained it to do that. You trained the dog to do that. They all let you. And then they get a new dog and they do the same thing again. Unbelievable. That they don't learn from mistakes. So your job is never ending. You better clone yourself or become 100 years because the world's going to need you for a long time, man. Never stops. You know? Never stops. You know? But, hey, this was awesome. You know? I really enjoyed this. Two hours went by very fast. I know. I know. It's crazy. Yeah. If you start talking about passion, look at it all day. Yeah. You gave. You put out so much great information out there. Like I said, I didn't even have to go through all the questions. All right. Because you covered it. One way or the other, you covered everything people wanted to know about you. I just, I think your program is going to just keep growing. Just keep getting bigger. We'll put it here in the link on Facebook. I'll put this video on YouTube. Cool. So we could share it. Share it. And everyone's able to watch it. And we'll put all your links in there. And whoever you talked about, we could put in the description, too. But I can't thank you enough, man. Thank you, Larry. We've been talking about this a long time. Remember that I was driving through your state? Yeah. I'm like an hour away. But I had so much stuff going on. Yeah. Yeah. You were real close to me, man. You were like 30 minutes away from me. And I couldn't. I just couldn't get on the same schedule. But hopefully one day. Hopefully one day. Yeah. I'm pretty sure. Like COVID, you know, let's hope it. I don't know. I don't want to say anything about it anymore. Yeah, I know. I know, man. I get it. But I appreciate everything you're doing. You know, thanks for taking the time to really enlighten people about how you train and how you're getting these puppies and dogs to look the way they do. Thank you. Hopefully they will put you. We'll put links to your stuff on in the YouTube video on the Facebook page so people can check it out and sign up if they want. You know, I think I'm going to definitely check out your MVP thing, too. By the way, the six blinds with the puppy. Phenomenal. Oh, you like that one? Phenomenal. Like, hey, let me do the six blinds. You know what? After that video, I never took them out again because I'm not doing IGP. I was just like, let me see how long it takes to have that and the energy. Right. That's what I want.

I said, I don't want a dog walking to a blind, coming back, going, all right, I really got to do this. That was fantastic. I mean, that was really real. I need that. I need that for sure. The family that has the puppy now. Well, the puppy was a little bit older when she left. And she sent me a picture today of the puppy and how happy they are with her. And, you know, has seen a happy face, makes me happy, too. That's awesome. I bet. Yeah. Wow. Listen, I think people probably enjoyed this because, well, if they didn't, I know I did. This was great. You too. You too. We'll keep in touch. I'm sure we'll do it again sometime, buddy. Yeah. Sounds good, Larry. So good luck to you. And thank you for your time as well. It's been really inspiring for me, too. So hope to catch you up later. And thank you always for the everlasting support, like on my videos and stuff. Always, brother. You're doing great things. Appreciate you, Nino. Have to have a rest of your day. I know it's late, but enjoy the rest of your weekend. We'll talk to you soon. Okay, buddy. Bye. See you guys. Peace out. Thanks, guys. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Thank you.