E40: 낸시 갈리아르디 리틀(Nancy Gagliardi Little) - "스타트 라인 스테이"

I mentioned kind of in the intro that last time you were on, we really talked to obedience, but today we're going to talk agility. So specifically, we're diving into start line stays. So I wanted to start with kind of how they're different from a stay in any other sport, something like obedience, for example. Yeah, they are quite a bit different in the agility environment. Agility is, you know, is very high energy, and the environment itself is fairly unpredictable. And that makes for difficult conditions for dogs that are trying to perform these skills that they learned at home and in class, especially the start lines. That's kind of the transitional exercise into the course. And then, of course, most dogs love agility, and it's pretty reinforcing for them to go. In obedience, the stays are very predictable. Well, and actually all the exercises are fairly predictable. They're patterns. Dogs learn those patterns, and that gives them pretty clear information when exercises start and end. And even in obedience, dogs can make mistakes, and, you know, they might read a pattern on and anticipate the finish of an exercise, especially the stay. And it's probably just when the judge says exercise finish, so they're pretty much done anyway. So it's just much more predictable. So why is it so important that people actually have a good start line stay in agility? What benefits does it offer if they put in the work and they get there? Well, yeah, agility is pretty much all about speed. And most people have dogs that are much faster than they can run. And I know I do, and most of the people do. And if they don't, they want that. Being able to lead out gives you an advantage, especially with a fast dog. And actually, on many courses, it can be difficult to start without a lead out with a super fast dog if, you know, going into the sequence, you just can't get where you need to be to cue something. So, yeah, it's quite a bit of an advantage having that. It gets you ahead. It might even keep you ahead throughout the course. And without that, you're going to be behind, which, you know, isn't all that bad if you want to do rear crosses throughout the course. Some people are very good at that. I have some students without start lines just because they came to me after their dog was a little bit older. And, you know, we just decided, you know, we aren't going to teach the dogs to stay. And there are definitely some sequences that they just can't or courses with starts that they just can't do or they just have issues with it. So it does put them at a disadvantage.

So you mentioned that you decided just kind of not to bother with it. Why do people struggle with it? Why is it something that's hard to teach? I mean, I think a lot of people just think a stay is a stay is a stay, right? Right. Right. Right. Right. Well, there's just so many variations, but it could be that there's holes in training or holes in generalization. There's a lot of that that happens. And lots of times handlers try to control the dog's behavior instead of training it. So that would be like a hole in training. It could also be the training sessions are handled differently than the handling at the trials. And there's a lot of that that's due to handling. Another thing I see contributing to the start line is the hand. This is interesting. But the handlers own increased arousal level there, you know, and then this happens in obedience. You see that too. But in agility, it's pretty much it's a it's a big contributing factor where the handlers are too hurried. They're unconfident and disconnected when they enter the ring. And then at the beginning of the run, they're they're thinking more about the course and they just don't stay connected and focused on the dog. And the dog sense that. And that can cause, you know, and in the dogs we're talking about, probably the dogs that have increased arousal level that causes stress. And in and also increased arousal. And that's never good at the start line, especially the dogs start reading a disconnected handler and they start, you know, losing the ability to think. And and then you have a break. A lot of times there's small issues that crop up along the way and they aren't noticed by the trainer until it becomes like a big problem. And that happens a lot. You know, there's little things that that, you know, little little things that they just aren't seen or they aren't aware of. And then they don't know how they got there. Do you mean on the day of the trial or do you mean? I just mean in general, kind of building up to that. But it just yet it'll happen at the trials usually, because that's where the ultimate differences are in between the training and the trials. Little stuff like creeping or what do you mean? Well, it would be just like maybe mostly handling. Some of some of it would be handling the dogs start getting a little more and more aroused because they maybe can't predict when the handler is going to release them. That causes, you know, it just and it depends on the dog. It could be that this dog particular dog responds to arousal and stress by creeping forward or they stand up or, you know, just even just a glazed look in their eyes.

You know, it just keeps changing until there's actually just an outright break. And that's when the handler notices that there's an issue, but it's actually happened long before that. I mean, I know we talked a little bit just now, but I think a lot of people kind of attribute start line problems to poor impulse control. The person just didn't work it enough or didn't do it right or something. Can you talk a little bit about the role that impulse control actually does play in a good start line stay? I hear that a lot. People think their dogs are pushy or have impulse control issues. And but I see more over arousal issues or frustration issues than impulse control issues. And frustration and over arousal, they can be caused by lack of clarity, unpredictable cues. And then, like I said before, handlers that aren't connected with their dogs. The dogs really want that. Impulse control skills are just a part of the foundation of training a start line. And it should be fun for the dog. Some of the issues with start lines might be due to poor impulse control training. But there's a lot more at play here than that. And actually, I've seen plenty of dogs that really have great impulse control, but they can't hold a stay at the start line. And a lot of that is due to just their arousal state. They're just they can't think. People just call that impulse control issue. And really, it's it's something quite different. It's really interesting that, you know, you kind of commented that you've seen a lot of dogs with great impulse control who really struggle with this particular skill. I think that's something a lot of people don't think about. Yeah, exactly. I'd imagine I don't do agility, but I'd imagine that part of what often goes wrong at the start line is simply that the dog breaks their stay in a trial situation and people just start the run. And they do that over and over again. And the dog kind of figures out, well, we're just going to go smart. So is there a better way to handle that? Yeah, that's that's a really good question. And it's a complicated one, too. And, you know, I think it's one of those things that it's hard to answer, but it's part of what goes wrong. But usually there's an issue, like I said before, that's starting to manifest long before the dog even breaks the start line. And, you know, the handler isn't recognizing until the dog finally leaves before that release cue. And it's actually usually in a really important run for them. So they're like, oh, my God. And a lot of times this has been happening for a while.

The dog's been breaking it, but the handler doesn't really notice it because they might be just turning back and releasing. And this time they turn back and they don't release and the dog goes. Something like that. And like you said, the more a dog breaks the start line in a trial, the more it becomes a pattern or a habit. And actually, it's just it's just like very, very reinforcing to the dog because they love most of them love agility and they want to go. So, you know, in terms of a way to handle it once they go, I'm not a big fan of removing the dog for breaking the start line. If you watch some handlers, a lot of times, you know, they remove the dog and the dog's already taken a few obstacles by the time he realizes that he's being taken off course. So he's probably not even going to associate breaking the start line with that removal. And that not understanding why he's being removed is going to cause more stress and frustration for the dog. And that makes the start line area even more frustrating. And then that causes more mistakes. So how do you handle it? It's, again, like it's very complicated. And it also depends on the dog and the handler. Lots of times when we decide this with students, I come up with a plan depending on the dog, the sensitivity of the dog, the experience of the dog, making sure the handler is being clear. All those things come, you know, come into play for that. It's just mainly just making sure that the handling is clear. But I'll give you some examples. That would be great. Yeah. Yeah. Like, and I'll just use my own dogs because they're actually, their start lines are very good. But Schema, both of them have broken their start lines. Schema is, so she's been running about seven and a half years. And when she was, maybe it was about four or five years old, I was in a, it was a two ring soccer arena. And we, you know, lots of activity behind, you know, and around. And as I'm leading out, I, I, I was watching her. And she left before I gave her the release cue. But I was watching her. I saw her expression and she looked the same as she always does. There was no twitching or any odd behavior. Um, I just let her run. I just went on, you know, because it's, you know, that's just the way it feels. Like I'll look at this later. We'll deal with this later. And one mistake isn't gonna, it's not gonna affect anything. And I looked at the video and, um, I obsessed on it. And, um, then I went to the practice jump between runs and I, you know, tested her with some games and she was solid. Like, you know, I figured she would be, and she never broke the rest of the weekend or anytime

after that run. And so I, I suspect she just heard someone else like at the practice jump behind her, give the same release cue and truly thought I had released her. So if I would have removed her for that or, you know, done anything, but just run her, she, that would have been very confusing to her. Um, so she never really knew. Um, an example I have with lever is he levers very, he's got some arousal issues, increased arousal issues. I've been working on a lot over the years. Um, he has some great skills, but has issues while he's really gotten, he's really improved. But, um, his start lines were a little, um, I guess there's lots of arousal there. Um, and they've gotten better. Um, what I do at the start line is I ask him how arousal he is. And I know that sounds funny, but I basically just pause briefly before I leave him. And if he can look at me before I, before I lead out, I step lateral and then kind of wait for him to look at me. Um, just, it just takes a brief moment. His arousal, if he looks at me as arousal levels under control and, and there's a time when he couldn't even look at me. Um, and that told me that his arousal level is high and that didn't mean I was going to do anything different. I just needed to know that. Um, I just would stay super connected with him as I let out and just, you know, just be a little bit more, um, more focused on him. So like about six months ago, I waited a little bit too long to see if he could look at me. And that was, you know, that was me trying to control him, a little bit of control. Um, and he, it was too long. And he, as I, I, once I decided to leave, he broke and I realized what I was doing at that time. And I just went on. Um, and I just kept going and he actually, he, he knew right away he made a mistake and that was not my intention to make him think he made a mistake because I knew, you know, in his case, it was arousal. Um, um, but he did have a really nice run after that. Um, so if I would have pulled him off for that or handled it any different way, um, it would have, it would have affected him. Um, and I just, I want him to be very confident in himself at the start line. Um, his start lines have improved dramatically just by me, you know, being super connected to him and, um, and just knowing that they're, they're a work in progress. So those are a couple examples. Um, there's so many different ones and it just, it really just depends on the team and the experience of the dog and what kind of things they are training, um, for start lines, but they are very, you know, all very different how you would handle it.

The main thing is just ensuring that it's handled the same in practice as it would be in trials. I was going to say that it sounds like you don't necessarily have to worry about a ton until it happens that first time that after that first time, you kind of want to plan in place in case it happens again. Right. You really do. Cause the first time it happens, you want to really go back and make sure that it's not handling and people don't realize how much, I mean, in agility, people work hard on handling, but there's a lot of handling that goes into start lines and the whole routine with start lines. There's a lot of handling and if you don't, um, if you, if your handling is not clear to the dog, there's going to be issues. Now that we kind of talked a little bit problem solving, I guess I want to take a little bit of a step back and talk about how you actually teach a start line stay. Is there anything special you do during the foundation stages? I probably teach it the same way most people do, but, um, I do a lot of Zen games or, um, I think some people call it, it's your choice. Yeah. I do lots of that and on the flat, then, um, my young dogs learned to stay by. They make a choice not to go. And then that decision brings reinforcement. I do lots and lots of games away from equipment, starting without handler motion and then adding more and more motion. It's the motion that can really, or the, or even the anticipation of handler motion that can actually cause, um, issues, you know, um, with the dogs. So adding that is kind of important in agility. Um, and there's lots of behaviors to train in the start line routine. Um, entering the ring, moving to the start line area or the area you're going to set them up. Um, the position of the dog, what position are they going to be in a sit, a down stand, whatever, um, between your legs, um, setups or how they're going to line up. And I guess that has more to do with going between your legs or if they're going to go to the left side or the right side, or some handlers stand in front of the dog and position them like kind of like a front. Um, and the stay, you know, there's the actual stay, which isn't really a big deal. Um, the release is the big deal. There's the lead out and then there's handling and training involved in all those areas. Um, so all of them are worked on separately and then gradually put them together as each area is mastered. So it's, it's like a lot of just flat work and fun stuff. So, um, you know, that dogs don't even know that we're working towards a start line.

I think that a lot of people probably just think about the stay itself, right? And they leave out all those other pieces you just mentioned about entering the ring and setting up. Yeah. Right. And what happens is then they have to try to control the behavior instead of asking the dog to do the behavior. And then that, you know, creates more stress and more issues there. And the dogs don't want to stay at the start line because it's, they're never, they're never right. They're always being controlled. Um, so that, you know, that contributes to it too. So once you've kind of gotten the stay that you want and the entrance that you want, um, you know, and you're trialing, what do you do to maintain that stay? You know, how often do you train it? How do you approach it? What do you do to make sure that it doesn't erode or doesn't disappear over time? I don't think about it that much, but I guess when, you know, when I think about it, I do it all the time without even thinking. I just, I'm always looking at videos of my runs and, or of training, and I'm always checking to see is the dog, you know, how's the, how's the start line? Um, it's just maintaining it. It happens by keeping the handling clear and the, the cues clean. Um, when I talk about the cues clean, I'm talking about just making sure that it's not being any of the cues being paired with any extra motion or movement. Cause that's a big deal in agility. Um, well, it's a big deal in any sport. And, um, it's also ensuring that my dogs are going to be able to predict when the release is coming. And that's what people don't pay attention to. And then the dogs are sitting back there watching the handlers lead out and just like, you know, arousal levels going up. Like, when are they going to release me? They, they don't know they can't predict. And so I try to create a predictor that is easy for the dog, uh, to read. Um, so I am watching videos of my runs and I evaluate my dog's start line. As much, just as much as the rest of the run. I'm just always looking to see, did the, you know, did the dog, um, did the dogs, um, release on my cue or was there any twitching or whatever? Um, it's, it's just really kind of important to know what to look for. Um, and that's, I think what people are missing. They don't know what to look for. They're just looking to see if the dog stayed and not looking at a lot of other things, which, you know, is a lot of handling. So, I mean, my start lines are really important to me because, you know, my dogs are very fast and, but I find them very easy to maintain if my dogs understand the routine.

Um, and, and whenever I lead out, I'm just always checking to see that my dog has made the choice to stay. And if I'm always doing that, then my dog has always made that choice to stay. Uh, cause it's very, the, the, the release cue is very reinforcing, um, to my dogs. They, they get to go. And so, um, they learn to choose to stay because that's what leads them to go. Right. They love that. So, um, for people out there who are listening to this and going, all right, that's awesome. But, uh, they kind of are in that position where they taught us all to stay initially and it sort of disappeared after they started running more regularly. I mean, how would you handle that? Would you just look at it as a poison cue and start over with a new cue? Would you retrain it kind of with their existing cue? I mean, how do you, how would you approach it? Yeah, that's a really good question too. I think that the first thing that I'd recommend to people in that situation is to make sure that they're videotaping their, their training, the dog and training, and also making sure that they're in that videotape as well. And also in the trial and then really look at those two sessions and see if the handling is identical. It really needs to be, it's important for the dogs. Dogs need to see the same thing. Um, it needs to be clear to the dog. Cues need to be clear and clean. And then also the connection to the dog is super important to the dog and agility. Um, very, very important. And that, that's at the start line, not just during the run. Um, so, you know, the, the questions to ask are, does the dog understand all the little parts of the, of his job at the start line? Or is the handler trying to control the dog, like, um, leading out and telling them to stay constantly? Um, that's going to be the beginning of a break because it's, it's going to stress the dog up. And there's many reasons why that's going to cause a break. Um, so any type of controlling rather than training is going to make that experience stressful for the dog. So it's better to take the time to teach those behaviors for the start, uh, start line routine. So if that's the case, if you kind of look at that, that, you know, you really take a look at that picture of the start line, um, is that, are all those behaviors trained? And is the dog confident in all those little areas? That's going to make that whole experience very, very easy for the dog. Um, and then in terms of whether a new cue or new setup routine needs to be trained, that just really depends on the dog in the situation.

Um, if it's been going on for a long time, it might be wise to change like the position. Like if the dog is doing a sit and he's breaking, maybe you just start them with an in or down. Um, I don't really think the cue is usually the issue because probably most likely the dogs are not even reading that cue. They're probably reading some type of, um, incidental cue or signal or motion from the handler that's being paired with that. Um, so it's not even, you know, probably an issue, but yet it can make the handler feel better changing the cue. And it might still be the case that we'd want to change it. Um, but it's, it's just one of those, again, creative, you know, processes you have to go through with each individual team. Um, it's, it just depends. And I know that to mention, uh, after you say again here at the end, but I know you have a class on the subject running. And it's supposed to start literally the day this airs, but registration is still open. Can you share a little bit about what the class does or doesn't cover and the kind of dog handler team that might benefit most from taking it? Sure. Yeah. And like I said before, I'm pretty excited about this class. Um, at one time I had another class that was pretty popular, um, that covered agility, start lines, stopped contacts in the table. And that was just filled with a lot of information, probably just too much. And, um, um, but I, so I felt it was important to make a subject of start lines into its own class. So this, this class is perfect for young dogs starting to train or even getting ready to trial. I think that's just, that's a perfect area for these type of dogs, but it's also a good class for dogs that are already trialing. I just ask if they're going to take the class to make sure that they stop trialing during this, this retraining period, because that's really important for, for the dogs. Because we do really want to make the trial and the training the same. Otherwise they just become different. Um, what it's not going to cover is how to address over arousal issues or environmental issues at the start line. And that subject's covered in other FDSA classes. Um, so like in this class, we're going to work extensively on, um, creating handling and training skills that will help predict the release. And that's the main thing. I want people to be aware of us, how much our dogs depend on predictability for start lines. Um, it's just, um, it's amazing. You know, once you clear that up, it just creates a whole different world for the dogs.

Um, so with these consistent predictors, the dogs are going to get more confident and adapt much easier in different environments. And that's hugely important in agility. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Nancy. It sounds like a great class. Yeah, I'm really excited. I can see why. Um, and thank you again for coming back on the podcast. I'm, I'm glad that you did. And I'm glad we got a chance to talk about some of this stuff. So yeah, it was great. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. And thanks to our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with Mariah Hines to talk about proofing and building reliable, ring-ready behaviors. Don't miss it. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing is provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Be with us. Be with us. Thank you.