#055 움직이자, STSK9의 니노 드로바에르와 함께

Everything that I feel needs more depth explanation, demos, student coaching. So, everything about training dogs for any purpose, but with the intensity of doing something to the best abilities of what you can achieve. And when you're the same for your dog. So, it's really about extracting the potential of the handler and the dog. That's the MVP. And upon that, we also remastered all our classes. So, everything from Pup University. So, we have three main classes, Pup University, Positive Only, and the Master Program. And then we have three smaller classes, which also received a complete update. And that is Healing Styles, Drive and Focus, and The Out. So, these are three smaller classes. And Healing Styles is incredible because we also wrote a book. It's free, a free e-book that people can download. But, yeah, it's awesome because healing for me is one of the most fun exercises to train, but also one of the hardest. Also, for people to understand what healing is about. For example, healing is not just focus healing. Like, for example, as we all know in IGP, the focus of Prance is elite healing. But also, the contact and the street healing. So, the three main types completely dissected in this program, which I really enjoy. Because I start with this from a very young age. And I really make a distinction between those three types. And when those three come together, that's the magic. Because that means, ultimately, people don't want a 30-minute focus heal, which is great. It's awesome to post and to look at. But what you really want is a street heal. That means I can go from A to Z in whatever town without a leash in the end game. And I would be totally fine and relaxed that I control this dog. And it's not based on corrections. It's not based on tools. It's not based on e-calls. None of that. This is based on a habituation of certain things that you will do, that you will install for this dog, that he understands what alignment means, what it means to sync with you, close to you, and how that transcends to walking on the street. So even that is a skill, Florian. So nothing just happens. When I have new clients, new students, for example, and I can give you a great example. I think it was last month. Somebody bought a four-month-old Doberman. And he said, oh, Nino, they're just imported because it takes 16 weeks for dogs to get imported, right, from abroad. They can get vaccinations and stuff. He says, I just got this four-month-old dog. And he's really big because he's a Doberman puppy. And I have to go on a walk with him. And I have a back injury, he said. So I have to make sure he doesn't pull.

So what tool should I use to correct him to pull? I'll listen to this, Florian. So first day in, just got the puppy. And now he's asking me. And, of course, he's a very nice guy. He's nothing bad about him. His intensity is pure. But he's asking, what tool should I use to make him stop pulling? You see what the problem is? And this is a general problem because people go and buy a dog, have a dog, puppy, whatever. They go in the first day and they're looking at fixing things and stopping the dog from doing things while they have not created anything. And it's a creation. It's a performance that you have to create. That's a development. And that's what you will benefit from. But you have to see it, of course, like I said last time, the long-term vision. And it's not a 10-year plan. We're talking about a 6- to 12-month plan. That's exactly what's going to take place in your mind. And then you have all the steps ready. And healing, sweet healing, focus healing, or whatever, is one of those plans you have to execute. You can't just assume, oh, I have a leash and I have a collar. I'm going to stop my dog from pulling. So now I have a focus healer. I'm sorry. Now I have a walk, off-leash walk in the end because then he's getting so many corrections. He wants to avoid corrections. So now he's ready to go off-leash. And that is traditional training, Florian. Let's face it. That's what I see everywhere. I see videos of people on social media that go in the city with three dogs even. And they all go off-leash. And you would say, my God, this is beautiful. And you know what I see? I see these dogs cramped up. Yes, exactly. You're showing their shoulders going low with the head a little bit. They're doing it. But it's like, this is the best day of my life. No. They're like, okay, we can't act. You feel they're compressed. It's not like they're walking with their tail wagging. Their heads are moving wherever they want to look. And they align with the handler. That's not what I see. But you see, that's the difference between if you train, for example, with more aversive or corrections. And if you train with pure alignment and synchronization, which is totally different. One's going to probably get your results in a faster way. The other one's going to take a bit longer. But the benefits are a multiplication of the options you then have. Because then you can start switching between focus heel, contact heel, street heel. They're totally different. Contact is based on focus on a certain target object. Focus is based on handler focus. And the street heel is based on, you can look at whatever you want, alignment. You see?

So all have their priorities. And that's what the free book is about. So it's actually free information that I'm giving because I really want to share that with people. Yeah, we'll put the link in the show notes. That sounds really interesting. And I think the street heel is what we call the functional healing or part of our functional obedience. Because also we don't see a big difference in what a dog could be able to perform like in an everyday situation versus in the duty while taking the dog from the car to a deployment area or taking it from the car to the vet. So it can be the same. It does not have to be a struggle. And where I totally agree with you is the traditional way of training where people rather try to inhibit unwanted behavior instead of creating wanted behavior and showing the dog options of how we can make them grow and show cool things. So what I really appreciate about your work is that you have managed to... You use your words very well chosen. That's what I really like. So I think people really understand your way of training by that. So I hope I can catch up with you talking since also my language is German, my mother tongue, not English. Actually, you know, it's funny, Florian, because I don't do a whole lot of podcasts. Like, it's been a while now. But I do have, like, I think two or three on my YouTube channel. And somebody just commented last week on one of them because I do see those comments come in my email. And I saw on the header, it was one with Larry Cron. And he said, oh, man, that was so nice. But you talk too much. And that's what happens sometimes. I get so caught up in my, you know, in my explanation of things that I can't stop anymore. So please stop me if I'm talking too much. I try to, but I also like to listen. And that's the passion that you let others feel when we listen. So thank you. So we talked before starting the recording. In the last podcast, in episode 20, you mentioned that you have the chance in the Dutch police to get seven free years. You know what I mean? Belgian police, yeah. You take seven years off. This is my seventh year. Yeah, it's my seventh year now. So can you say it out loud or are you... Yeah, man, I'm totally fine. There's no... How do you say it? How do you say the English word again? Censor. There's no censorship here. I don't know. I can say anything. Yeah, sure. Ask me anything. So you've decided to stay with STS or will you go back to the police full time? No, although I really always enjoy working at the police with my dogs. It's been one of my big passions. And it's one of the passions, one of the least highlighted ones.

Because if you go on my website, yes, at some page you will see that I've done police work. But it's not something I brag about. Although I have like a record of deployments and stuff, I really enjoyed it. But, you know, the industry needs things from me that are not law enforcement related. Although I'm sure I could still help many of them in many areas. But I'm on a mission here. And this mission for me requires that I stay active at STS Canine to, you know, help people become the best coach they can be for their dogs. And to have these dogs, all these people. I met some great people and some awesome dogs. And now these students have become more successful than myself even, which I take a lot of pride in. I know there's a lot of coaches that don't want their students to grow above them. And for me, it's an honor. And I'm so proud of these people that they were able to elevate their skill set on a level they never thought would be possible. So I'm very extremely happy about this. And this is part of the mission is that's why I want to be a coach. You see, I'm not a dog tweener. I'm a dog tweening coach now. Because that's my mission. And this mission requires me to stay at STS Canine. So, unfortunately, you know, great things come to an end too. And for me, Rocky passing last year, he was like a certified police dog that I could have used again if I wanted to go back. But he passed away a little bit early for his age, unfortunately. But to me, that was also a new milestone of, okay, I have three certified police dogs. And with Rocky's passing, I really feel now it's time for that new chapter for sure to keep evolving in this industry and to help people wherever I can. Yeah, that's a great mission. The last time we talked, we were still in the end, but still in the Corona crisis. And you mentioned that the workshops back then, well, due to the situations, were not running that well. And now you said that you have renewed your online programs. Are you still doing those in-person classes or workshops? Or have you reduced it and gotten more into the online training? Yes, good question. Because if you know me a little bit, the way I do things is usually the way I do anything. And as with dog training, I'm very, you know, perfectionist in that kind of stuff. But now I said, okay, if I'm going to do it online, it has to be the best possible online the world has ever seen, in my opinion. And that means pro camera, pro edits, subtitles, infographics, like coaching students. I want to see the troubleshooting, everything, anything you can imagine. This is what I want to do.

And I keep working on it every day. Every day we have new footage, new videos that we can replace, we can manage. That's the beauty of it. You know, before you make a DVD, it's out there. It stays like that. You can never change it. But these days, with these online learning management systems, it's a totally different world. And my mission is every day I wake up, how can I make better content for these people? How can I make these students better with my offering? And that's what I do day in, day out, every day. So, yeah, it has definitely reached a complete new level of my core business. Because it's not only online you can reach more people, obviously, but the detail you can give. For example, we run this professional cameras on slow-mo, 120 frames per second. I can tell you the detail. I can show with ball exercises. It is impossible. At any seminar you would ever come to visit me at the police when I do one-on-one, nobody ever even saw the detail. Because it's so fast. Move, move, move. Sure. It's 3-5-5 seconds. You could do it again. You could show them 10 times, and they still miss the details. Because, as you know, in dog training, it's all about the details. So if you miss the details, if you haven't seen that, if you haven't seen the footwork, if you can't go back and rewatch it, have your brain really absorb the information, and then let this sink in a little bit, then look back at it, and then hear the explanation, see the demo with the dog, then put the pieces together, boom. And that's why, for example, one of my MVP students have become the most famous students on the planet. Like, on the planet, Florian. Not just talking, oh, he did well. People know him. We're talking a guy with 1.3 million followers on YouTube. Who do you know has 1.3 million followers showing his dog's training? And not, like, sketches him falling on his face. We're talking skill training, skill-based training. One of, like, Rocky's son, one of my dogs, Matt, and one of these dogs has a reel doing bite work, which is, as you know, not the most popular niche when it comes to getting views if you show technical bite work. A technical bite work video with 127 million views. Who does 227 million views? Wow. Wow. That means there's something in it that people appreciate. The information that was given. The skill that was used. Yeah. And that's what I said. Look, and this week he sent me a message. He says, remember, Nino, what would have happened if I wouldn't have taken your puppy university? Because that was one of my first online, it was a puppy university. And I kind of laughed at it. I said, imagine that.

Yeah, he wouldn't have had the life he had today, which he obviously enjoys. You know, it's one of his passions, too. So changing lives from abroad is great because you get to have an impact on people that you maybe would never met in your life. It's the beauty of it. So online, of course, there's a lot of thrash also, but there's beautiful things also. And, you know, that's why I said I'm super proud of these people were able to do this because of my teaching, because of what I had to offer. And we only make it better now. So very pleased with this, for sure. So to get things right in order, in my understanding, you travel less, you can train more at home with your dogs, with your MVP students. Less work. Yeah, it's been a conscious choice because, yes, everybody after Corona asked me to come back and do events. Sure. And it was very tempting. But I said, look, if I want to do this right, I have to stay here and I have to make these recordings that are necessary because they also go across, you know, multiple weeks of development and stuff. So you can't just go out and in. It's like every time you have focus on multiple things, you know, one thing's going to suffer. So, but for the people that are interested in doing this, you have to understand this is a very, I would say, expensive type of business also because these cameras, the edit work, look, if you want to do it well, all the translations, the subtitles, the reviews of the review of the review, that takes hours, hours of time. You can imagine that is not just something unless you do it with an iPhone and you hope for the best. But if you really want to do this on a level that nobody's ever seen, you're going to have to come with some, you know, with a team at least to get it done. Yeah. And that's what we do. But I enjoy, you know, it's, the thing is that sometimes I don't feel like a dog trainer anymore or even a dog training coach because this is so demanding in production that I'm more of a producer slash director slash, you know, creative artists sometimes, you know, because it's one thing to make classes. But as you know, I'm also on social media and that demands a whole different input. And before, back in the day, it was demos. People like to see demonstrations. But now people want either tips or they want to have something extremely special or extremely cute, you know? So social media changes the whole time. Back in the day, I could show my best of, let's say, exercises, moves with Rocky and would always do well. Those days are over. You got to come with something really, really good, especially if your channel's been out

there for a while. People have seen your stuff, right? Like, it's not like if I show my lab, I'm sure there's not many labs like him, but people already saw what he could do. They're like, ah, that is possible. The first time you show it, it's like, whoa, you never see this, but people get used to it. You know, I see people with dogs in China who literally make somersaults off a tree, a triple somersault, and then get caught in the arms. And this become the norm. I remember the first time when I saw something like that, I maybe watched this 50 times. I was like, what is this? This is crazy. Nowadays, you see it, oh, yeah. You see? So we get used to this. Everybody's like unique. Everybody's special. And everybody wants to do better, faster, more explosive. And then it becomes like a race almost. And I'm in first place. I'm not an influencer. I'm an educator. I'm a coach. So I sometimes throw in something that is spectacular. But the main type of my videos is also showing what dogs are capable of and to inspire people that way with things that they can achieve as well. Because if I only throw in the highlights and the special moves, then, I mean, it has to have more purpose than just showing one super highlight. So that's a cool thing. Also, you mentioned that I should take a look at your blog articles. And that's also something that you have started with last year, right? So it's quite new. Yes. And that's a cool thing. We will also put that link to the show because there are some short clips with some explaining text on all kinds of different topics. And what I liked about it is that when you read the title, not always it's clear immediately what it's about. So I have it open on the other hand. So things like, give me a second. Yeah. I don't even know, Florian, if people watch this stuff, I just make it. It's just part of the thing. Like somebody said, hey, you should do a blog. And I was like, blogs? Really? Write stuff again? I was like, I can do video slash blog. Okay. So we do video slash blog. So you can read it or watch the video. Yeah. But I like the way you put it. So one title is Beyond Limits, the Power of Dog Training and Self-Belief. So who is not interested in finding out what's behind that? Or another one is Freeing Your Potential in Dog Training, the Interplay of Talent and Competency. So very well. I think people will love to take a sneak peek. And the cool thing also is that it's not too long. So it's not like a half an hour video clip. It's some snippets and some intros. Yeah. We want to keep it short for sure. Yes. Yes. People are always short on time.

You know, if you demand people's time, you better have something interesting to say. Sure. And that's the point of listening to a podcast also. I listen to podcasts, but only if these people are really interesting to me. If they really have something to share that I didn't know, or I'm going to find out more about this type of thing that they do in a way that I didn't know. Why else would I watch it? Sure. Or listen to it. And another thing that I'm interested in personally, which has nothing to do with dog training, or maybe not that much, is your diet. Because back then you said for a few months you've been on a vegan or vegetarian diet. Is that still the case? Oh, my. That's great. That's a... That's great. That's great. I'm not actually. Well, my girlfriend is. She still is. But at some point, yes. She switched from vegan to vegetarian, which I thought was a necessity. Yeah. Because maybe depending what location you live, things might be a little bit easier. For example, my cousin, he went to India, one of those villages. He says, man, I couldn't... There was nowhere I could find meat even. Like, I'm not vegetarian. He said, but I had no choice. Because that's the only thing that was available. They had all these vegetables and they had all these dishes without meat, nothing. He said, it drove me crazy because I'm not vegetarian. But you see, depending on location, there's a huge offering of this. And I believe in Belgium where we are right now, the offerings of living vegan, not saying vegetarian, but vegan, it's very hard. Because you will find the same product again. You will get fed up with this. And at some point, it did feel like we were... I mean, it felt a little bit like we were short on something. So that's why we changed the diet. So I'm back to normal, I should say, as I eat more fish, of course, than meat on occasions. But I'm okay with it now. It's hard to say that we try and that we didn't follow up with it. But we have to be realistic. I think countries in Europe, like Belgium, for example, they're not set up yet for this type of lifestyle, in my opinion. I mean, even just to go out on a dinner, try to go out on vegan dinner. It is so hard. Yeah, maybe. And these are one of the things. In the bigger cities, like I used to live quite close to Vienna, you can get everything there. But also then you will be fed up after a few weeks because it's coming back the same. Yeah. I totally understand it. So I remained an omnivore since ever since. And still alive. Okay.

But, yeah, the cool thing is if you find some regional nice places where you know where the meat, the fish is coming from, the vegetables are from the local farms, et cetera. So I think that makes a lot of sense. Okay. So that was a nice review of what has been happening in the past months. And time is running, as you said. Do you think there is – did you sometimes have hard times because things are moving so fast to catch on? Or to think today I have the great idea, I try tomorrow, and tomorrow it's already – someone else has shown. You're talking about social media or in general? Yeah. In general, actually. I think time has – life has become faster in general. Yeah. I'm a very busy person, so I have a lot of ideas that I want to do. I have a lot of stuff that I want to record. As soon as I see the sunshine, you'll see my backyard here. I'm addicted to going outside and doing stuff. When I go out and do stuff, immediately I get creative. I'm trying things. I'm doing – so for me, I never had – and you'll see that on my social media. I never had a – how do you say it? A creative block or something where I didn't know what to tape or whatever. For me, yes, time is always the issue because I want to do more that I have time for. So I get caught up in 18-hour shifts sometimes, 16 hours easy. So that is the case. You get caught up in this work because it's something that you really enjoy. But it's always at the cost of something, right? It's either the cost of your health because you're not sleeping, you're not working out, or it's a cost of your family, it's a cost of friends because you're not seeing your friends. You're doing this the whole time. So my best friends are my dogs and my camera and stuff. So these are sometimes, I would say, harder things to deal with afterwards than – oh, while you're doing it, you're like, oh, whatever. I have no time for family. I have no time for friends. I'm sorry, guys. Then, of course, it catches up with you. It's like, hey, what's wrong with you? You're not the same anymore. We don't hear you. We don't see you. You don't invite us. It's like, oh, my God, it's true. Like, I never see anyone. It's crazy. I'm just living in this bubble the whole time. And then before you know, oh, it's New Year. Oh, it's summer again. Yeah, it's just living life in the fast lane, I guess. But if you're on a mission, that's the thing. Time is different. It's not like you really realize how fast time goes. You're like doing this thing, and it supersedes everything you do. And yes, and then before you know it, it's the end of the day. It's the end of the week. It's the end of the month.

And it's the end of the year. For me, I'm living life. This is the hardest I've ever worked and worked. I wouldn't even call it work. But it's the most I've done in a day, week, month, year. Yeah. And if you would calculate the hours dedicated to this mission, yes, it's insane. I don't think a lot of people would do it if they were not extremely driven to do it. Because usually people look for days off. I'm telling you, you know what my biggest punishment is right now? That they're asking me to go on a vacation. Yeah. I do not want to go on a vacation because I feel I have, like, so much more stuff to do. I want to train so many things. You said the same thing on the first episode. And I meanwhile understand for people who don't have this intrinsic need of doing this, of enjoying being self-employed and having your own mission to follow up. So also, my past relationship broke down because of this. Because there is no need for me to go on vacation. I live the dream. It's my dream is totally different to yours. And obviously, it was different to my ex-girlfriends. But I think it's even sometimes it's not toxic. But it's, yeah, it's just a way of living. Yeah. Florian, have you ever seen that movie called Weplash? Did you ever see that one? It had, I think, like five Oscars or something. It's a movie. It's a Weplash, it's called. Have you ever seen it? No. Maybe. It's insane. It's about a kid who's so driven to be the best drummer or to achieve his goal. And his, you know, what he does, what he's willing to sacrifice, his relationship, like anything. Like, he is so into this. It's awarded with multiple Oscars. And it's such a great movie, you know. It's a recent movie or? No, it's like nine years old, I think. But I didn't see it until recently. Because I've been quite busy the last few years. But then I saw it. I was like, yeah, it has so many good reviews. Let me catch it. And then I saw it. And I was like, oh, right. So people that like to see movies and especially if you want to see a good one, I definitely recommend that one. It's all passionate. It's crazy. You want me to write it down? Yeah. In the message? Yeah, in the message. And then I will put it in the show notes, of course. It's always interesting. With. So that's the English title. Yeah, I see it. I check it right away. Maybe I know the German title. But we never know. Yeah, check it out. It's really cool. 2014. Ah, I've heard about it. And I never watched it. But I. Two great actors. Yeah. I will. I will go for it. It's one of the best. I've seen. Yeah. Also, after your few months after we talked, I read David Goggins' first book.

And then right away, I listened to the audio book, which is like a mix of audio and podcasts. Yeah. How did you like it? I loved it. So immediately I read the second book. I like the first one better. But it's great. It's insane to read about this story. And it's very inspiring, of course. Yeah. There's a parallel to make. Like, look at this guy, you know, overweight. Like, he was a, what did he do? Cockroaches. That's what he killed cockroaches and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. And then he became like one of the SEALs best. Like, what a story. Now the whole world knows him, of course. But it just shows what potential you have and you don't even know. What if he didn't have those ideas to become that? What if he didn't just go like, you know what? I'm going to put this milkshake down and I'm going to try to run. Right. And he couldn't run. And it's just, it's so many similarities. Like when I tried a dog, attempted dog training, it's like, you don't have a dog. You don't know anything. Yeah. Why should I? It's so easy to talk yourself out of something. But what I've learned over the years is you got to start talking yourself into stuff. And you got to tell as many people as you can. Why? Because that's your accountability. Because if you tell people what you're going to do, I said I was going to make the best program ever online and I'm doing it. You see? So it's no use to say it and then come up with a shitty program or whatever. Like, it's my mission. Like for me, for example, I could have 10 new clients and one of them says, oh, there's one thing I need to have MVP I didn't get. Or that wasn't clear. Oh, I'm out. Like, I need to fix this stuff, you know? This is something that I wanted so bad. Like, because when I bought a DVD back in the day, I was disappointed because I saw a bunch of skills that I didn't have. But of course, I couldn't define them. I saw a dog that did things that my dog couldn't do. And that was easy for them to say, this is how you do it. And this is how it works. And then the dog shows it. And like, that's it. And you feel like even more desperate now because they're like, what the hell? But you can't call anyone. You can't ask anyone. It was just bought a DVD and that's fine. But in the end, it did help me because what I came from is it can't be like that. It can't. If I ever make a class, it cannot be like that. I don't want people to think, what does it mean by that? How did you do that? So I wanted to make it better, like more clear. That's how we came with slow motions and stuff. The S-flow, which is something that's unique to my style. I prepare all the moves in flow without a dog.

It's a big thing because that is how you adapt to certain handling skills. And obviously, if you can't even control that and you put a leash on top and you put a clicker on top and you put voice commands on top, everything you add on top of that and the first major foundation of your body awareness skill is not correct, it's only going to get worse. Because I don't remember if I said it in the first podcast, but movement is the enabler of all talent. That means if your dog cannot move well, if he can't do things with his body, well, then he's limited in what he can bring. He's limited in his obedience. He's limited in his spite. He's limited in everything because his body doesn't have the capacity yet to show his imagination. For example, because this sounds abstract maybe, but if you call a dog from an angle, he's never been called that into a foot position. He's going to do awkward things if he doesn't know how to move. He's just going to try to get in front of you or make some circles. But a dog that knows his body is technical, they come up with a solution. You will never see that in your life. You cannot even teach that dog how to do that because he came up with that because he controls his body in a way that he can do things now that would never be possible unless you give him that foundation on how to move technically, slide forward, back into pivots. And now he can do the craziest things. That's one of my big passions is I've enabled this dog now to move in a way that this dog didn't even believe he could do. And now he's doing things. He's coming up with solutions, how he moves into a pattern, which he totally did on his own. I didn't even show him how to do this. He came up with this because he knows how to move. And this to me is the enabler of everything else. Because if he couldn't do that, well, what more can you ask from dog? 90% of the stuff we ask is move. Move to the left, move to the right, move backwards, follow me. Everything is moving, move, move, move, move. So you better know how to move then. Yeah. And I can't remember what his name is, but he's a popular guy in sports. And he said the most important thing. So if he could make a choice on what every kid needs to do is it's gymnastics because they learn how to move and they learn how to work their body. So I see a parallel aspect of that in what you do with dogs before you get then into training. Because if I got it right in one of your blog articles, you say you first get into the moving and learning before you start loading a marker or things like that.

You need to have the learner being set up with what the hardware can work with. Yes, that's the thing is, anyone can push a clicker. You agree with me? Anyone. Sure. You can give your kid a clicker. You can give your grandma a clicker. Anyone can push that button. Same with the e-collar. Anyone can push a button. But now ask them, show me how you would have your dog go from your left side or whatever angle into your heel position. Now show me that. And that is actually not a complex motion. Oh, my. The things you will see. What happens with their body, with their hands, with their feet. You will see the most crazy thing. Then if you analyze it and you say, hey, that's how you would have this dog move. And you would say, but that's not even possible because the dog cannot even move that way that you just showed. You see? So it's even unrealistic what they show how this dog should move that. And this means that they haven't analyzed it. They don't know how the mechanics of a dog works. And therefore, they cannot put him into foot position. And the only thing they can put him in then is like the most rudimentary foot position that you will ever see, which is like literally that the dog takes one step and he's like halfway in there. And then they're satisfied. That's a problem. And I'm also last time I was doing a podcast on Instagram Live where I do some Q&As and people ask me, oh, yeah, this basic and this basic. I said, people, stop talking about this basic obedience. Because if you put the ladder at basic, you know, if you don't make that one, you're going to be sub-basic, which is mediocre. That means you're not even going to make it to basic. Because if that's where your bar is, most people never really reach their highest goal, right? So if you're working towards it, you're always in mediocrity the whole time. And then I asked him. Somebody was just here at my house last week. And I said, she was not a doctor. You know, it's listening to me. And she said, look, if I would ever have a dog, she said, I would want it to have them listen to me, obviously. It's a very common answer. And I ask her, okay, what exactly then do you perceive as listening to you? What does that dog need to do? And she said, well, thinking about it, I want three things. I want him to sit down. When I tell him to sit, okay. So we're listening, very basic, right? Sit down when I ask him to. Then she said, I want him to come when I call him. Right. And I want him to behave. And I said, look, do you understand that you're asking one of the hardest things ever? Because let's reverse it.

You said, I said, okay, I said it's pretty straightforward. We can get away with that. The other two, you're talking not basic. You're talking highly advanced. Because a recall, I don't know what kind of recall you have in mind, but I gave her an example. If your dog is about to eat the cat's neighbor, he's in full pursuit, and you recall, do you want your dog to come then? And she said, of course, of course, yeah. Nobody wants trouble with their neighbors. Oh, my dog ate your cat. And I said, look, that's what you want. Do you imagine that? That is the highest drive a dog can be in, in full pursuit, ready to go for the kill. And now you're going to recall your dog. And you consider this as, oh, he just has to do some basic stuff. That's not basic. If you're thinking of a recall when your dog's looking at you for his cookie, and then you call him, and he's coming one foot closer, maybe that is your basic recall then. But if you're talking a recall for real, like to save either your dog's life or somebody else or somebody else's animal, whatever, that's not an easy exercise. I call it the elite, a super recall. I'm making a class on this shit. This is called a super recall because this is something that needs a vision, that needs a setup, a foundation. This is something that needs work. This is a performance, what I told you. All right? That's exactly what recall is. Then she says, okay, the third one was behavior. But what kind of behavior are you talking about? I said, can you be more specific? Yes, I want it to behave when people come, when I'm going outside. I want them to jump people. I want them to bite people. Okay, so you want to do all these things, and let's assume he is like a natural-driven dog who wants to do all these things. So you have to stop him from doing all these things. So how do you stop him then? Do you think stopping a dog from being who he really is, which is a dog that jumps, that barks, that does things impulsively, stopping a dog is easy? You think that's easy? And then she said, oh, I actually never thought about it this way. This kind of makes sense that it is. It is probably harder than I thought it was. I said, I bet you are. But you know what? You're making the same mistake everybody else does is you're not thinking about what skills then it's going to take for you or from you to have this dog do these things, these so-called basic things. They're not basic. They're highly advanced. But look, that's the problem. People are being sold at a basic idea of if I have a dog, let's just keep it simple, guys. No need for focus, heal, and all that kind of highlight stuff.

We don't need to do, how do you say it, 360 reverse gaits. And I get that. You don't need to. But there's no such thing as basic if you have a dog. Because if you say, my dog has to recall already, you're not even talking basic. This means you need to know how to manipulate the leash. You need to know how to handle rewards. You need to know how to create value. If you know how to create value, you need to know how to give him this value and how to have him think about this value, being there all the time. How do you install the idea of your dog seeing you as a permanent source of value? Because when there's one thing that he really likes at the other end, you think he really sees you as the source of the absolute ultimate value? No. That's why he's not coming. So how do you change that? How do you change the mindset of a dog that is willing to pursue something which he knows you cannot offer him? Try to compete with that. And don't talk to me about this damn e-caller. Because I'm quite frankly sick of e-caller bullshit that I see on the internet the whole time. I'm seeing people trying to tell other people, trainers, no worries because we put this collar on, we tap this thing, and the dog is just going to – I don't know what kind of skill that involves then. But in all those years, 20 years, I've never taught my dog a recall with an e-caller. Yeah. And I can call my palm. I'm going to film my palm because I have one of those gimballs, professional gimballs. Yeah. I'm going to recall a palm that has never had an e-caller on when it is out there in the woods. And you're going to see the fastest recall you've ever seen while that dog is doing stuff that has nothing to do with what I'm doing over here. It doesn't even know what I have. You see, so what are you talking about? This is a foundation that you put in that has nothing to do with tools. If you start right off the bat, I'm going to fix your problem with tools. Get out of here. I don't want to hear about your tools. I don't even want to hear about your clicker because to me that is also a tool. You make people believe that one accessory is going to make your life and your dog's life better. If there's no skill attached to it, I'm sorry, man, but everybody can push this button. But not everybody's dog is going to do the things they want them to do. And if this button has to ensure your dog is going to do these things, you're relying on tool. I'd rather rely on skill. But if that tool would ever come into play, because look, I'm not an anti-e-collar guy, okay? I'm not an anti-positive guy. I'm not anti-anything. Do whatever you want.

But if you're talking about I want a result and I want the highest probability that whatever I'm asking is going to happen, well, then don't assume a simple tool is going to solve it for you. You always have to assume that if I want something that is very demanding for a dog, it's going to demand some stuff from me. And that is not going to be a push-on button. Yeah. You hear me, Florian? I want to be very clear about this because I feel because if I use a tool, I'm like in the bracket of tool users. No, no, no, no, no. I'm not in that bracket of tool users. The way you or not you, Florian, but like the way people perceive this tool. Sorry, but that's not me because you can go out with me anytime. I did lives on my Instagram. I just go out there, get the dog, and start working. There is no tools. There is skill. There is a performance. There is things that I've done. There is foundation that I've laid. And this is where the true value is. The tool, if you can overlay things with your tool, well, great. I'm the first one to congratulate you. You actually leveled up because of the tool. But if you start off with a tool, I don't even understand why people want to talk in a reel on social media about a tool. How on earth could you explain something you do with a tool in 60 seconds? Well, I sure as hell can't unless you make it very rudimentary, unless you say this is what I do. Because even for an out, there's one class that I have, the out, which is a very straightforward class. Either your dog outs or he doesn't. And if he doesn't, yes, you can use the tool. But there's a prerequisite before you use the tool. And that prerequisite involves skill, involves analysis, involves setups, involves intelligence and cognitive skills. And then you can implement something that has a meaning. But how are you going to explain that in a 60-second reel? That's impossible. So I don't even know why people go that way. Why do you even want to advocate for a tool that you know, if you're a skill trainer, does nothing for you unless you have skills? Unless you want to go back to the old traditional ways. You know? That always used to work. Because 2024, everything is canceled. If you don't fit in, you're canceled. Right? If you don't say the right things to the right people and the right platform, boom, they cancel you. Whatever. But if you want to go back to the old days, that's also not the solution. Where everything was fine. You can blast a dog. You can do anything. It was okay. It was okay in Austria. It was okay in Germany. It was okay in Belgium. Anywhere. Just do whatever. Whatever it takes. Those days are over.

Now we have more. We have the opposite. Now it's like, okay, never use the tool. Never use this. Well, speak for yourself, will you? Because if you say never use the tool, what is that based on? Is that based on some moron using the tool and he messed up and now everybody has to pay the price for it? That's not right either. Yeah. So you see what I'm already amped up a little bit here? Because these broad generalizations are the root of the problem. So if you're a balance trainer and you're showing your tool the whole time, you're not really adding to the problem. I mean, you're not adding to the solution. I mean, and the same thing is for all this positive only talk. Well, if these positive only people have law enforcement people that they've trained, they have special forces that they've trained in positive only. They have all these results of purposeful logs that they've established and finished. I would say I'm the first one to take my turn and listen. But that's also not the case. So this means the truth is somewhere in between. But what is the truth? Well, the truth is what you believe is ethically and morally okay with how you perceive treating an animal. And if you're okay morally. That's very subjective. Right? Of course. Yeah. That's very subjective. But actually, that's a good link to the main question or the main topic. Talking about quadrants. And now I'm really curious because before we started the interview, you already said you have a sort of a different opinion or attitude about it. So, still, maybe we can, for a minute, talk about what the quadrants of operant conditioning are and then what your approach about that is. Because I'm talking about tools, talking about being balanced, a balanced trainer or Lima trainer or whatever kind of trainers are out there. And most of them would say, well, they only try to work with positive reinforcement or they try to have positive reinforcement and negative punishment as their main quadrants. So, real short for the listeners who are not that familiar with it. We have four consequences in theory to address the dog's behavior to either make it more or less. And there are two kinds of rewards. So, there is a positive reinforcement where something nice or wanted is added so that behavior gets more. And we have a negative reinforcement where something unpleasant is reduced to have some kind of release to the dog. So, as soon as he has this release, obviously, there is a rewarding component. And then we have two kinds of punishment. So, we have a positive punishment where something unpleasant is added.

And a punishment means that behavior gets less. And we have a negative punishment where something pleasant gets taken away that the dog wanted to have or did already possess. So, I know many people get mixed up these quadrants. And I think it's not that relevant for practice. It's interesting to know about it. So, what are your thoughts, Nino? Nino? Oh, well, I have a lot of thoughts on it. And my thought is that whenever I train a dog, it's probably the last thing I think about. For example, I had a dog named Cody. And he was, I would say, extremely well-trained. So, he could do anything you can imagine. From competition, police work, he had it all. And what people would call the circus work, the demos that people don't see the purpose of. So, he could literally do it all. And to be honest, I didn't even know about these quadrants. I didn't think about them. I never even worried about them. I started studying them when I went more pro. Like, okay, I have to know about this stuff. Because it's what people always seem to be so concerned about. And what I found is that when I was doing seminars, I met very knowledgeable people. I met doctors. I met professors. I met people that were highly educated. I knew everything about quadrants. More, better than I could ever explain. There were anthropologists' behaviors. So, I met all sorts of people. And you know what? When they brought out their dog, I didn't see any of it. And see any of that cognitive skill being translated into a performance. And that hit me. And that's when I knew, hey, Nino, you're here doing a seminar for these people that know more about you. About all these quadrants and behaviors. Yet, the way you got here was by showing videos of a dog you trained while you didn't know nothing of this stuff. Right? And now you meet people who know everything about this stuff. And they need my help. In theory. Why they're not getting results with their dogs. Yeah. So, as I said, talent is a combination of skills before. Remember the first podcast? Let me rephrase that. Not rephrase. Let me repeat that. So, talent is a combination of unique skills that you can combine simultaneously in a way that you can access it at any time, in any place. And that allows you to do things better, faster, and more efficient. Okay? So, if you have a cognitive skill, that's great. But it means nothing unless you combine it with other skills. And the thing is, for dogs, when you're on the spot, in the moment, the cognitive skill has a very low subconscious level of what you need. Because everything goes so fast. The dog responds. He doesn't respond.

If you have to go all the time into, what is that? What am I doing here? If you have to contemplate the analysis of, if he will do this, I will take this reward away. And if he does that, it doesn't work like that. So, this means dog training is more intuitive. It is more based on analysis on the spot. So, very fast analysis and skills that are required to put this analysis into action. Because you can, that's why, for example, a lot of people agree when you see other dog trainers' performances. Oh, man, that's so bad. This sucks. This is not good. I would have done it this way. And then they go out and do these things. And they also look bad. Yeah. And why is that? Because making an analysis from a distance is totally different than in the action. And I think the action is where people struggle the most. They overthink because of maybe the four quadrants. I don't know why they overthink. Or because they don't have the skill. Or they don't see the problem. Or they don't see the solution to the problem. So, it's usually one of those things. And if I would say, hey, I just did a few seminars and I met some people. But I'm talking, like, consistently. I always met people that were either professionals or studied these quadrants. But what I never saw is that they outperformed other people that came in with nothing about quadrants. Like, literally, they would come in new, brand new handlers. And then they would perform. And if you, Florian, would come in. And I would ask you, who here has quadrant knowledge and who doesn't? You wouldn't even see it. You wouldn't know. You would actually say some of those people that had brand new puppies, never trained dogs before. They actually looked better. They were faster. They were making better progress than these people that were so knowledgeable. And this is something I haven't done a study about. Like, how come that is the case? Why people with so much cognitive skill about quadrants can't just put it into practice? But maybe that is, if you look at the priorities in dog training, I always say, if you shift one priority, what is very important to you, like for me, for example, moving, and you shift that into the entry level of your dog's development, then your dog is going to move very good over time. If you know what you're doing. You agree with me? So what I'm trying to say is, if, for example, people came in with a lot of cognitive skill, they're very good cognitively at talking and making analysis on the side. But once they go in, they lack the true craftsmanship. They lack the technical skill. They lack the fast twitch movement of, okay, I need this.

I'm going to do this. They lack imagination because quadrants are very, it's very clear. You can't mess with them. Okay. You can't give your own. So I heard some trainers talk about their own interpretation. I'm sorry. It's validated science. This means you can't just bend science that way. It is, it is exactly what it is that way. Okay. So you can't give it your own interpretation. It is what it is. All right. Because you, the way you've explained it, that's the way it is. Like you can't just say now say it's opposite. No, it's the way it is. So if you come with that kind of background, that kind of foundation first, maybe your priorities were set on this. And your mind will default to more of this type of problem solving. Where I have no background of this. So I can never resort to it. I always resort to things that I see and in movement. I always resort to, okay, mechanical is not right. So I'm not worried about what the dog's thinking. I'm worried about what I'm doing and what I could possibly change that could change the outcome immediately. Sure. And there is very little time and space to have the subconscious filter all these quadrants. Mm-hmm. And I think at some point. Sorry to interrupt. But that's what happened during the session. So I get it right. It's in the training. It's about speed. You can't even. Maybe some things come naturally. The more often you do the movements, it's like a muscle memory or whatever you want to call it. The more naturally it gets. The smoother it gets. But when you do video analysis that you obviously do, don't you sometimes ask yourself why or your students, because I think you have mastered what you're doing, that why is the dog repeatedly doing the wrong step there? Or so what's the reason? What's the stimulus for the dog to not do it correct? And what's the consequence then? Because obviously we want to get things done right. Yeah. Well, I'm reward-based. So in that way, if you would put it into a quadrant, that would mean positive reinforcement. That's by majority where I would be solving and creating and doing things. Yeah. So I also believe that if you would define it scientifically, that's where I would be at. Am I positive only? No. But the majority of the time, that's where I find that I have more success by using rewards, by creating value for the dog to see things in a motivating way. The incentive is very high, but that's part of the deal. Okay. That's where I feel also people want to make themselves special for some reason and start doing things opposite, as in start with, for example, negative reinforcement, followed up by positive reinforcement.

But this is a very old traditional way. Yes. I don't know if you've gone, tracked some research on this, but this is in the early 1900s. This is what they already did, is seeing the combination of negative and positive reinforcement and having a faster learning curve. Yes. But listen to this. Even if you crack the code of a faster learning curve, the only true, you know, what I should say, the only true validation of how good your learning process was in regards to the dog is how the dog is presenting itself. And for me, the benchmark is always the reflex of the dog in a highly fast anticipation, the reflex of your command. So that means whatever I ask him, this dog is not thinking he's on it. He's on it. He's doing like he knows the incentive is high. He understands that this exercise has become highly enjoyable to the point where he doesn't even need rewards. He is enjoying this exercise just by being engaged, involved. And this is what I'm addicted to. So this is my part of the game that I'm focused in, that I have for the police, which has nothing to do with training only positive, as you know. But yet still, I choose that route because I believe those same indoctrinations of having a dog trained in this way is always going to get high benefits from you in the long run. So even though you can have fast results by using negative reinforcement, I still see the huge upside of not choosing not to do it. So I like the analysis of using the quadrants as in making coaching choices or making heavily loaded decisions. And are we going to use a knee collar, for example, or not? Are we going to use a leash or not? Are we going to use a correction or not? So therefore, I see that every professional should know about the quadrants for sure. But as a beginner, for example, I would never say any of my students who are beginning, learn about the quadrants that come back to me and we'll get started. No. I would always go back to look, don't worry about anything. Actually, you don't know anything? Great. The less you know, sometimes the better. Because then you can just go with the flow, with the moments. You can capture that moment and see. So that means your brain can't give you wrong signals. Because you know what? Florian coaching is not just about giving people, oh, my God, my master view path is the perfect program. You know what it also is? It's about giving people or having people not execute a bad plan. Because everybody who has a dog already has some kind of plan.

And when they hear my story and when they see my curriculum and when they see how things unfold, you know what the first thing they send me? And I can show you the messages in my phone. It gets like flooded every day. Like, you know, sensei, coach, they give me these names. We're so happy. We find your program. And the only thing they regret is not finding it earlier. Earlier. Because, yes, and not necessarily because of all the skills that I pour in. It's about the fact they could have avoided doing things that they did. And they didn't find them as an attribute. They didn't find them beneficial for their dogs. And they wish they could have avoided doing that. You see? So coaching is not just, oh, I'm going to give you the best possible skill. No, it's also I'm going to make sure you're not executing the wrong things first. It's a big part of it. You can't just assume you're going to give everybody the perfect plan. And they're going to execute it perfectly. But making those choices, those priorities on what you focus on first for your dog, making these decisions. How are you going to go about this little thing that you thought was little? And then you create the setup. And then you see the outcome. And in both ways has completely different results. So making these choices should be cognitive. There I go. I'm your man, Florian. I'm the first one to tell you, if you have a dog, let's become cognitive about what you're going to do. You as a trainer. As a dog coach. Because inevitably you are a coach. Because the dog cannot train himself. That means you have to create the impact for the dog that designates you as a coach. And if that's the case, you better be a good coach for your dog. And if you want to be a good coach for your dog, you have to understand. You have to have expertise on what it is you want to offer your dog. Even if you know nothing, well, then at least know what you shouldn't do. Right? I'd rather know what I shouldn't do. So if you ask me, for example, how do I start a business? I could tell you all these things, how to create a business and how to do these things. All these steps you have to make. But I could also tell you, don't do these three things. And that may be more valuable to you than the thousand steps I'm going to give you afterwards. You see? So Florian, the more sometimes you know, it doesn't necessarily mean you're going to do better. That's my experience. And also I think. Yeah. Go ahead. I'm sorry. Just one more statement I want to add to this because it adds to the testament of maybe knowing less is sometimes better.

I train here with the world champion, Mario Verslappen, a six-time world champion IGP. All the hours we have talked here and trained together and done things, we never talk about quadrants. That's a sign on the wall. And you know what's even crazier? He was explaining to me exercise and he's been on my MVP podcast also for my students. He was explaining things. Now this is going to blow your mind. Opposite of classical conditioning. So you have not just a guy, a random guy who has some results and you're doing fancy stuff. You have a guy who is a six-time world champion IGP, the most decorated ever to do it on this planet ever. And he is doing things opposite. Okay. So let me give you an example. What are you talking about? He is letting the dog do the behavior and then he gives a command after the behavior is done. How about that, Florian? How about that? That should have your brain go pew. Are you saying what, Nino? Are you saying what? So a six-time world champion is giving a command after the exercise is done? Wait a second here. Classical conditioning is supposed to give you a new command first, right? He doesn't. And he gets away. Well, I could say he gets away with it. Or maybe it's not all about doing it exactly the way that it's supposed to be. Because let's face it also in the end. Was Ken a dog trainer? No. Was Pavlov a dog trainer? No. But is Mario a dog trainer? Yes. Sure. You know what I'm saying? So sometimes logic for him is not always logic and science. And that's why, my friend, that's why dog training, a method, will never be scientifically validated. Never. Because can you imagine, like, let's just work out a scientifically validated method to train dogs. And then Mario would come in and he would give things, he would tell things opposite of science. Like, people are going to go, because who validates them? It should be science, right? It should be universities and stuff like that. You're going to go, okay, this guy's crazy. There you go. You're already done. The thing, so especially where I come from and what I do most is detection and nose works in search and rescue or hard surface tracking, most of the time detection. And the world of scents and odors is something that has almost not been understood yet. So we think that we know a few things, but the abstract thing about training dogs in detection is that we think we can teach a dog to do something that they're way better than us and we can't even concept what they are doing. So it's, it's, it's, it's, it's actually, it does not make sense to do detection training, but somehow it works.

And, and so in the end, our, our, our job as a detection dog coaches or trainers, instructors is to, to, to, to give the dog the idea of what scale of odors shall be searched for. And what is the, the behavior that shall be shown when dog found the source, but, and the rest of it is, is, I think can hardly be explained, which is very interesting. And, and that shows, as you said with Mario, that there is the theory and there's the practice part of the whole show and not everything makes sense. If you get outside and take a dog and, and, and perform something. But what I was wondering is when Mario shows this, this, this, this example of saying the, the command after the behavior, there must be some initiative cue for the dog to show it. Is it like a neutral cue just to perform or what, why do you think does it work? Because is it the context that the dog knows what to show? Yeah. Well, of course, in my analysis and the aftermath, that's how I give it logic, because I remember the first time he told me and I was training actually my puppy. Cause I'm training his puppy. And then he watches me train my puppy. Cause I'm helping him some areas that he is reaching out for, which is actually great. Can you imagine like a world champion reaching out to get help by a former law enforcement free style trainer? It's not so common. So, so I'm really happy that he reached out and I knew him from before. So, and we appreciate each other. That's one. So, but I know when I was training my puppy and he said, give me command now. I was like, what are you talking about? He says, yes, give it now. But I said, it's done. And I remember I wanted to go discuss it with him. So I waited and then he would just finish training. And I said, Mario, like you were the first person that ever, that I ever saw. And especially on this level that does things opposite. And so I started watching and paying attention to how he's training his puppy. And yes, there are, in my logic, yes, there are some cues that initiate the behavior and the dog links it. But then I was thinking, remember Nino, because I told you I didn't know anything about quadrants. And I remember that I wanted to introduce the whistle to my dog. I want to recall him on the whistle. And what I did is I said his name. So remember, I didn't know about quadrants. So I said his name and then I whistled. See? So I said his name and then I whistled. But normally you introduce the whistle first. Yes. But I never did that because I didn't know. And guess what? My dog also, like in one lesson, was on the whistle.

And I couldn't stop myself from thinking about this old example of myself. I was like, yeah, you know what? I'm not the kind of guy that starts looking for sense when you train dogs because just to the reason what you explained. Some things just don't make sense and they figure it out. Florian, let me give you another example. You tell me if this makes sense. What Rocky before? My dog, Rocky, was looking at the target. And I'm like not even in his eye vision. He's not even watching me. And I'm making movements. And he is syncing up with me. I never taught him to do this. I never initiated a setup to sync with me separately away. And he started doing this on his own. For me, this is still one of the most unexplainable things. Why would this dog sync with me? What's his purpose? What's his incentive? His source is right there. I didn't ask him to do anything. He started syncing. So they make connections that we can't even understand. They start doing things sometimes that they understand as an animal, which maybe as a human being, like, oh, this is something in science. They have never taught us. And yet the dog does it. And that's the beauty of it, working an animal. It's like it has its own unique response. It has its own mechanisms, its own process. Yes, you could highly predictable, as in what I think, for example, defines the top trainer of Mario is he predicts a lot of things that are going to happen. And then they happen. So he anticipated on it not to happen. And I recognize myself in it. When I go out, in my brain, I was like, I'm going to do this and this and this. And this doesn't work. I got this and this and this. So I'm making the math beforehand. But then I go in and I can go on automatisms. Okay. So I don't have to, like, think about things. I knew what was going to happen. So I either avoided it or I knew immediately what to do. But it's a great aspect. Sorry to interrupt again. That's what you can do, but not someone who is rather new to the subject. So what's your guidance or your tips for those people? What if things go worse or what to do if things go well? So you always have to go back to the equation of, okay, does Nino do things better, faster and more efficient than the guy next to him, for example? And if you would observe it and you would say, yes, Nino is actually more efficient and more fast in his process of achieving a better result than the guy next to him. Well, then you have to first look what kind of skills is he using then that get him this result? Because it's not like I'm flying and it's other guys like sitting on a chair. We're doing the same thing. So we're both using hands.

We're both using our voice and are both using a ball or food or whatever, let's say tool or prop. So this means we have the same circumstances. We have the same things to use, but there's different skills involved. For example, I go to a seminar, never met this dog, never met this person, never been at this place. I take this dog's, I take this person's dog from his hands and I create a better results in five minutes than this person has done in one year. That is not okay. As, as, as in, if I was an owner, I would want to know, okay, I need to know exactly here what you're using that I've never been able to use. And that's, that's exactly the reply to your question. Go back to the, the skills that you don't have, which are for me easy to define is you don't see what the dog really wants. So your, your dog is observing you in a different way. You haven't been able to create value so I can create value in 20, 30 seconds with a dog. I met, I meet at a seminar, the way I hold the source, the way I give him access to it. He makes a few links. So give me like literally two minutes and this dog makes easy connections. Oh, access to this, access to this. He doesn't know me. He doesn't know my smell. He doesn't know anything, but he knows how to access something easy. And then I make one mechanical movement that this person I'm sure in his life never did. And, but my, or not my, his dog responds to this, this fast connection that he made. And in literally two minutes, I make him do a move that he's never seen before. So I make him go in the center, for example, with a, with a U-turn boom into a down. And he struggled for a year with doing this exercise, but because he doesn't have my, my technical skill. But then you, then you have to ask yourself, okay, you know, how hard is this technical skill? Well, if I tell you, can you move your wrist like this? Okay. You're already halfway there. Can you move it the other way? Yes. I said, that's how you break it down. Look, I saw a podcast myself two weeks ago, and it was about, uh, you know, it was actually about advertising and business and stuff. It was actually more complex stuff. And two things can happen. If you give people complex tasks, either they will say, okay, got it. I understand. They get the feedback. They go to work, execute, get better results. Say, thank you. It was a great, uh, tip you gave us or a seminar, whatever. Or we have people that say, I don't understand what you mean. So if I say move better, move faster, do this, they could say, I don't know. So if you break it down, then if you break the scale down to the basic of the basic would

be, how do you put the piece of food in your hand? That would be, can you open your hand, put this food in and close it? Sure. And then you would say, of course I can. Okay. But if, if I go and explain to you, okay, let's move in this way, like put a bit of direction here, a little bit of pressure on this side of the nose. And this is already too much. So you have to literally break it down to the very first simplistic skill of just opening your hand, putting a piece of food in it and that's it. And then moving in a straight line, open up, boom, that is it. You see? So you can't expect this person then to complete this move in three minutes, but you can't teach this person that, Hey, you want to create value? Do this. Have the, so if the, if the person it's himself or herself or not, uh, or not skilled yet, depends on the speed of learning, depends on how fast they can absorb new skills and apply them. So, but if they can, if it's too much already, you just go simplify it, go break it down. That's why the S flow for me is like, I can literally watch somebody without a dog and I already know how the dog's going to look. How about that? And I mean it, this is not the first person I've done it with. Like all my students went through the S flow and all of them with a ratio of 98%, I could say, I see a move this way. And because I say, submit one, a submit one B one, a, I just see a move. One B is with the dog. So sometimes I never even seen them before in my life. The first time I see them is without a dog. And in my mind, I see what they do and I predict what's going to happen with the dog. And 98% of the time, it's exactly how I envisioned it. It's going to happen. So this means the details, what I was explaining are very important in a dog's perception on how to react, how to move, how to anticipate. And that's why, for example, somebody who's never seen your dog can have a better result in you in five minutes than you have in one year. Because the dog is very simple. He's straightforward. Like, well, that works. That doesn't work. Okay. This works. I'm going to do it again. Okay. It works. Okay. Let's do it again. Let's keep doing it. All right. This is, this is great. And then at some point you can take it literally to the limit. For example, I train three dogs at the same time, literally at the same time. Some people can even train one dog because it's hard. And I train three working breeds at the same time without them eating each other, all doing sync stuff, all doing healing at the same time. And they're all puppies. How do you explain that? You see?

So then at some point, it's not about, oh, how far can you push the limit? It's more like, well, it's become so subconscious and so easy for this dog to understand that I can do two at a time and not have any problems with it. I can do three at a time and still get away with it. And at some point, I even did four at a time. I had four puppies, four months old heal with me based on the same foundation they all received. They all connected at the same time and they all started healing at the same time in sync. How about that? And then people, of course, go, well, I've never seen anything like that. But to me, it's like, well, I mean, it's the same if you do one, you can do two and you can do three and four even, but you can't attempt four if you've never even done one decently. You see? And that's where I'm going back to this, to backtrack your cognitive skills. Why make things so complex if you can't master the basics? So if you can't handle the wrist movement, if you can't handle this finesse in the leash, what are your quadrants going to do? Not much, in my opinion. Yeah, yeah, sure. I agree. Because still the quadrants are only the theory about it. And still, I think sometimes it for, maybe it even depends on what you're doing with the dogs. But for me, and we're all different kinds of learners, I really like to analyze it afterwards and try to understand why the behavior has just not been shown as it could have been. And sometimes it might not even be the quadrant. Sometimes it might just be the failed delivery. So as you said, putting the hand like this or like this, we have a pre-exercise in detection training where we build the indication behavior, which in a way looks like very basic exercises that you do. So the dog is following the food hand and we do the U-turn and we do a move-stop or we do a move-feed. We do a move-stop feed. And people who did this several times, maybe with multiple dogs their own, of course, it comes more handy. It comes with more speed and style and they will gain the task a lot faster than people who do it the first time. But still my question is, maybe I was not clear enough. And if the exercise does not work or if the dog is showing different kind of behavior that you don't want, what can a consequence be? Do you just restart? Do you announce a negative punishment or do you explain to the handlers what is happening right now or just let's start over again, do a dry exercise without the dog, do it again with the dog? All right. So now it's getting abstract because now there's a million things that can go in my head of what

you mean because everything is a problem right away. As soon as I step out and even though I am skilled and I have all these imaginations in my mind of what can take place, it is still not going to go exactly how I want. So basically you are always adapting and adjusting continuously. It's not like, oh, I planned this. Now it played out exactly how I want it. This is all great. So since you do that, it's just a matter of what choices that I make before training. For example, I'm going out without a leash. That means I only have food. So whatever happens, I'm going to adjust, improve, you know, make my changes with this food, with this dog in a freestyle way where there's no leash, nothing. If you go out and you have this leash in your pocket, then you know either you're going to put it on already and you're going to apply it in a certain way or you're not. You see, it's always either you are or you're not. And if you decide to, you're going to do it in combination with the food or not in combination with the food. You're going to do it in combination with your voice or not in combination with your voice. So for me, these are actually, these are quadrants because either you're adding or you're not. Right. I don't think like quadrants, you see, so I'm not thinking I'm adding, I'm taking away. Now I'm just thinking about choices that I'm making. So either I'm using a tool as a leash or I'm using a reward. Am I, am I not? Or am I doing a combination? What am I trying to do? Am I trying to do something he's done already a thousand times or I'm going to do something brand new that he's never done? So these, this is some information I need to know upfront because this will influence my choice that I make. Because for the puppy, you will never see me break out leashes unless I'm training outdoors and I don't want my puppy to run under a car. But you know, outdoors, you rarely see me use a leash unless I want to show a leash skill with a puppy. So that's a different format. So based on the age, the expertise of the dog and my intentions and my goal, I will make a plan of what it is I'm going to use. But the way I use it is what's going to define the outcome and not the choice of the tool that I decide because the way ABC uses the tool might not be the same that I use the tool. But since an observer can say you both use a tool, so you are both using a tool to get this outcome, I would say, yes, the tool that's you correct. You've assessed that right. We use the same tool, but we have not used the same technique, skill, intention, and plan. And that changes the outcome immediately.

So the way you use food, I'm going to say you in general, but the way X uses food and Y uses food can be totally different. The same food, the same hand you put it in with a totally different outcome. So, and this is the type of stuff that I analyze. So if I go into student analysis and into breakdowns and reviews, I look at details. I look at the setup. I need to know all these factors. So, for example, you can only submit your video, for example, on my platform that I personally review. If you give an analysis, a short analysis first, what you're trying to do. Because sometimes if people send you videos, but I don't even know what they're trying to do. Yeah. So then you look at all these things. Okay. So first, give me your objective. What was the objective of what you want to show me? Okay. Write it down. Then it's, what is it that you liked? What is it that you didn't like? And what would you have changed now to do things to? So what you're doing is you're helping them analyze the exercise better, understand their intentions and understand their decisions better, and then backtrack them and see what would you do different? This is already, this is already a big difference in just, here it is, you know, tell me what I did wrong, please. You see, they're not even using the analysis. They're not thinking about these choices they make. So it helps them evolve also in that way. So that's one. And then based on the information I get, I analyze this information and I could see, okay, what their attempt was, what their intention was and decision did not make sense because they actually did the opposite or they didn't use it or they thought they did, but they didn't. You see, so that's my, that is my, my mission is this my job, I should say, that I need to look at the things that they thought they did well, but they didn't because they, they, they read the skill wrong or they thought it was going to play out this way. But with all the stuff they set up and I knew it was going to turn out differently, but they didn't know. So how come I know these things and they didn't know? That's my job is to tell them, look, you wanted to do this, but you kind of messed up here and here. So this, if you could have avoided that, you could have a different outcome, but they go out, they do it again, avoid it and show the outcome. This is fast, fast learning. And you see how online learning is catching up with one-on-one. I can give you students that I've never met and they will be better than a student that you've spent eight hours a day with because, because the eight hours are not productive.

You can't say, oh, I spent eight hours with you. Now I'm going to be really substantially better than somebody who spent 15 minutes with you. That's not the case. Same thing as for your dog. Your dog's not going to get better if you train him eight hours versus 15 minutes. But people, it's the same. So if they drop a review, my analysis could be seven minutes, eight minutes, three minutes, but it's going to be on point. It's going to be limited to what they show. So we can focus on that and not like a general. If you always talk in general, let's say, for example, you come here, Florian, and you show me a 15 minute demo, I could literally write a complete essay on things that I see and then break them all down. But then you will go, oh my God, it seems like I didn't do anything right. No, let's just focus on one thing at a time here. Because for me to assume that if I give you feedback based on five different skills, five different tools, and that's just too much. Let's just simplify things. The simpler, the better. That's not overcomplicate. I see in dog training people try to overcomplicate because they want to be special maybe for some reason, or they think the dog is special. No, a dog is, that's the beauty of it. Simple, simple and easy. You go out with a puppy. That puppy was born literally yesterday, sort of speaking. What kind of intelligence do you think it has? It literally goes with what you offer to do or not to do, to be or not to be. And that's how I like it. It's very straightforward. This puppy is not scratching his hair. I'm thinking, hmm, what on earth is going on? You know, it's just going like, hmm, no, this is great. This is more, this is better, better, better. All right. And they probably don't overthink. Yeah. Overthinking. I just made a reel last week. I'm going to post on my Instagram this week. I said one of the biggest problems is you guys overthink everything. You forget having fun. If I go out and think about it. Oh, Nino has to post. I have to show my students what I could do and so on. So there's also pressure on me. Although I'm not like in law enforcement anymore, you know, trying to catch bad guys. There's still always pressure in your life. Sure. So, but I never go out and think I have to prove myself or my dog has to prove anything. I go out and think, how can I have the best possible fun here and teach something in the process? So I'm thinking, what does he enjoy? What can he do? What is he old enough for to do now? What has he shown me really good that I can add something onto that type of healing?

So, for example, he's done really good in healing in the middle at some point. Oh, can he do it on the left now? Can he do it on the right? Can he do it in reverse? And can I switch it now with a contact heal? You see how my brain works? So I'm thinking, I have this already. So I can add this so that maybe next week I can switch between the two if I make it fun. And so, for example, it's a big difference for a puppy doing a contact heal and a focus heal. I can switch between the two the whole time. So as this little puppy is only four months, he's already switching between two complete different styles and focus points at four months. So you can imagine if he grows older, this stuff is going to be so easy for him, switching drives, switching focus and movement, that you're going to think, how many years did you train that? He's not even a year old. He's only a few months. It's a cool thing when you have a young individual that has no learning history and it's like a clean sheet to start with. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A short break. Is that okay? Yeah. You had a few more questions? Yeah, but actually we ran through it quite well already. So my question was throughout our conversation, because in the very beginning you talked about different kinds of tools and the perception of tools. For most people are averse to tools, etc. But then you also mentioned the clicker. So do you dislike it in general or do you have a different kind of reward announcement that you prefer? No, it's not like I dislike it. It's not like I dislike using it or whatever. You know, Florian, for me it is more about making people aware of the fact, hey, you want to use a clicker? Look, I use clickers. I even have like branded clickers. So obviously I use it. But to me it's more like, look, don't expect the clicker to either solve your problem or to create this performance. Because it's not going to do any of these two. And that's my part of my job is that I have to explain things in a way that they do not overvalue it. But they also don't underestimate it. They use it when it's time, when they need to. If they want to implement it the first day, I'm not against it. Like I'm not against things. But to me it's just like, hey, make conscious decisions, okay? You want to use it? Okay. But you can't move? What are you going to click? There's only so many things you can click. You want to wait for this natural behavior that is going to show you that you can mark? Fine with me. But also understand there's going to be a limit of what he can do and offer to you. And it's never going to be at the pace that you want it to be.

So if you start rewarding now at a pace you never wanted to be rewarded at later on, why are you doing it now? Always think about it. Make just conscious decisions. And if you make conscious decisions, you can use your leash first day. You can use your clicker first day out of mind. If you don't use a leash to pop it, of course. Because, I mean, and then in the end if it's their dog and they want to do these stupid things. Well, you can't stop them from doing that. But that's the thing, you know. As a coach, I always have to make sure don't do the wrong things. And especially not multiple wrong things at the same time. Same goes for bite work. When I see people doing bite work, my stomach turns. Why? Because I know it's detrimental for their development. I know when you put a young dog too early on pressure and you try to challenge them too much and you overdo it because you have all these great scenarios in mind. And you're actually destroying instead of building. So then my job is not like to tell you what to do. My job is, look, if you want to continue doing this, be aware of the fact that this and this and this is not going to be exactly how you envisioned it to be. Because if you look, for example, oh, I want Rocky's grip because he's a genetically great dog to show grips. But even that genetics is not enough. We use the right equipment. We use the right decoy technique. We use the right setup. We had him develop over the months and even years. And then we started implementing ABC. And now we build a dog that looks like a machine almost in its bite work. But it wasn't given because it was genetically the right dog. It was because we also made the right decisions. You see? And I see people are looking for a genetically great dog to not having to make conscious decisions for some reason. All right. Now, actually, do more stupid stuff with great dogs than with lesser dogs. Because with lesser dogs, they know it's not going to work for this dog. It's not going to work. So they kind of tell themselves this is not going to work. As soon as the dog is showing great things, boom, there you go. They overdo it. They make stupid decisions. They make poor planning. They don't know what's coming. I'm going to give you another example. One of my favorite students. I really, really like her. She has a Doberman. I posted her. Elise Rocco D'Adobe is her channel. Look, a great channel. This girl really has great skill. She talks to me about protection training. I'm like, hey, I've seen what your problem is. Not having that control, right? Because she has a lot of control and obedience.

Not a lot of control and protection work. But it's set up for failure and drive management. Why? Because you start from an agitation entry or a dog that has talent like he does. It has genetics. You have to reverse this. You can't just start with showing what he really wants and then having confirmation for his dog. He can do whatever he wants because then he goes so far ahead that you can't pull this right back anymore. And then you come into the slippery slope of where corrections may be applied to gain control again. What else is he gonna do? What else is he gonna do? What else is he gonna do? old vision doesn't work maybe in the long term it will work but I'm always thinking faster more efficient and better and by better I mean better for the dog okay because you can do things fast and efficient but not better for the dog all right so let's make that clear when I say better I'm meaning better for his own stress levels for his understanding for his trust with you his confidence everything you build you want to destroy that because of an exercise I sure as a hell do not want to do that so if I don't want to do that then don't make decisions that are going to lead to this distrust if you don't want this dog to to believe that you are not so fun anymore then don't do things that he considers not fun which is you physically correcting a dog and and screaming at him what dog would possibly enjoy that and then and then here's where the whole debate starts is well balance trains will say it's needed you know at some point you have to show them who is who has authority and stuff like that and and and and that's when it's like discussable of course you know I'm not I'm not a positive only person who says never correct the dog whatever it is I'm not like that at all you might have that perception because I'm an advocate for dogs when I advocate for the dogs that means I I see their uh emotional state how they feel happy how they enjoy things is my top priority you will never see me work a dog unless it's a genetic thing as as from a oh what's he going to do now it's always going to be the opposite it's a it's a secret of my success they always ask me how your dogs are so happy all the time and so enthusiastic well that's the point I want them to be that so that's my first priority I want them to be enthusiastic outgoing and themselves in whoever however they were built so if I have a puppy what what can I not ask okay let's start with what can I not ask if you have a puppy do not ask him to sit still why because a puppy a working puppy or whatever

does not want to sit still it wants to move it wants to be active it wants to chew things and wants to do these things right I'm going to give you another example this will hit you it's back to the story with the guy who wants to go on a walk my puppy eight nine 12 weeks old goes out and he wants to bite his leash somebody told you do not have your dog bite his leash because if he bites the leash he's going to do it forever you'll be in trouble you'll end up correcting your dog you know what this puppy I'm already happy he wants to go out with me without throwing a fit with this collar and stuff like that so if he wants to bite this leash let him bite this leash I'm totally fine with that let you know and then he bites that leash and he is enjoying it he's hanging on to it like a purse like he's biting that leash but you know what I have the experience in my imagination knows he's not going to bite this leash forever and just one week after he already knows he's going outside for a walk is when he enjoys going out for a walk when he knows this is actually fun going out with you I can do and and then at some point when he's two weeks in when he tries to grab that leash you know what I do the only thing is a great tip here I only make it harder for him to grab this leash so he's like you know he comes out he must grab it right and the only thing I do is like I try to grab it because I it's right behind his ear then right and he tries and he tries two times and then I offer him something else so he tried I gave him the opportunity to try it like this doesn't work and then he's distracted into what I have boom and this brings value to him he forgot about this leash he's gonna go back to it try to grab it again oh it doesn't work you see and and literally three days he's unsuccessful with grabbing his leash but successful with re-engaging and other things he's not even thinking about this leash anymore and I have videos from this so it's not just like this is all talk you know you could say whatever you want I have videos of my little puppy RJ grabbing this leash like insane like a pit bull on a leash I can literally lift him up he would hang on that leash I can show you videos now three weeks later down the road he walks with me with this leash this not only that he walks with me synced aligned without any corrections with his tail wagging like this and he doesn't care about this leash whatsoever actually you know what I'm gonna tell you more I just uh did an edit on my puppy university and I wanted to show about this leash

and I hoped he would bite it so I'm like ready with this camera like I'm waving it in front of him it's like man bite it again so I could use it as an overlay to make my point he doesn't even want to bite it you know what I mean so people worry about this stuff worry about things they shouldn't be worried about of course if you have a one-year-old dog tugging you on the floor with a leash well then you have a problem you agree but if a one-day puppy that's with you for one two three days he's going on a walk wants to bite his leash what the hell do I care let him bite the leash at least at least he's not biting you know your skin or whatever they're gonna do these things yeah and and that's uh that's so interesting and I think that's a cultural thing and maybe because um I don't even think that people learn like this but um our our focus is focused in in a wrong way in many aspects of dog training because we or many people especially in in pet dog training or also in working dog training they focus on things that should not be happening and and address misbehavior with their feedback and what I what I like to say is that feedback can reinforce behavior and and dog is the lawyer who interprets this article and and chooses whether this should be uh reinforced or or punished so Florian this is repeat this this is a very complex sentence you're making here so you see you're thinking of you you explain to me how your dog perceive this information and you do it you make a parallel or you you use a I don't know how to use it metaphor in English yes exactly use this metaphor yes to make your point but your metaphor is quite intelligent so I actually I have to think about how to interpret this because I'm thinking dog so I'm thinking always easy straightforward and now you're giving me a metaphor that I actually need to think about interpret a legal thing yes feedback and see you know what I know what I mean so you just have a complicated dog training in one second because you gave me a metaphor that was harder for me to think about than actually training a dog for me okay but but if you talk to somebody who is very cognitive they will totally understand what you meant with this but maybe not understand what they what that means for the puppy you know what I mean so and this is a little bit of uh I would say I wouldn't say the problem of course but maybe these are some things that we as people we communicate and we're like hey you know what I mean you're giving this example and you assume they

know what you mean because they can relate to this example as a human being but they cannot imagine what this puppy is getting having in his mind on this very basic level of to bite or not to bite and what happens if I bite what happens if I cannot bite it because there's only three options you're going to go out and let's say assume you know dog's going to bite his leash because he's done five minutes ago you know try again so either he bites the leash or he doesn't bite the leash do you agree with me so let's just let's go straightforward with this what happens to go to your quadrants what happens if he bites the leash nothing he enjoys it he can keep biting it what happens when he doesn't bite the leash he gets bored and maybe he goes bite the leash you see there's only that many options so if you if you think really basic if I was a puppy what would I do if I didn't have anything on on me I'd probably bite something that was wagging in front of me because that's a problem the leash moves so the leash kind of wax a little bit and a high driven puppy will catch it that's totally normal so I think depends on the approach because also if I don't want to have so if I know about the potential that the dog could bite the leash I I I don't I don't introduce it in a in a in a in a session where where he could think about it so I've never had a leash biter for example leash biters all the time like they're so driven every time I put a leash on with a puppy of course I've never had it with a with adult dogs because then they've gone through that phase but every time I have a puppy and the first time like I literally hook that leash on okay and but they're driven puppies they're all working puppies and as soon as they see something move catch it right and and before I remember that that's why I love this example for myself because my first dog Florian the the melon that I bought and I knew nothing nothing and I was like oh my god what's gonna happen now he's biting this leash he's tugging it he's actually hanging on to this and I was like okay go on the internet what did I find get a spray to put on the leash so I bought the spray he was like I don't know some yeah some spray put on the leash he didn't care he didn't just but bit the leash again I was like oh my god no one okay go back and metal like a chain a chain leash so I bought like a chain and then the dog like he tried to bite the chain he didn't really like it so he didn't bite the chain but as soon as I put the nylon two leash on boom okay so you

see for me this was a problem so it was a problem I wanted to solve but I solved it with fear I solved it with I want to avoid this I was always thinking about what's going to happen if he bites it more what's going to happen if he starts tugging it even more you see boom boom boom and there you go down this lane of problems and and solutions that are not even a problem to begin with because they could be so basic that it's just either he bites it or he doesn't bite it come up with a solution which is like you say either set it up so there is either nothing for him to be so interested in the leash or because you have something better have him bite a ball while the leash is hanging so there's more scenarios than just the one that I explained but don't make it like an issue a problem as oh my what do I do now so for example your puppy pulls do you expect a puppy not to pull I would be surprised if you if you but that's the thing some people expect a puppy not to pull and I'm thinking what kind of puppy does not pull yeah well I would become I would be really concerned yes but if you have a puppy palm for example like I had puppy palms and they weigh 500 grams which is less than a pound well then if they pull you don't even feel it that they pull because you can hold it with your pinky you see so that's a big difference as if the Doberman that I referred to in the beginning of the podcast is four and five months old and that little Doberman is actually 18 kilos and when he pulls if 18 kilos pull and I have a bad back yes now I have a problem the dog doesn't have a problem the puppy doesn't but I have one but then you're coming up with a solution to solve your problem because the puppy can't have problems puppies don't have problems so you want to solve your problem but you're going to do it at the cost of his development and that's where I have to step in and say guys wait a second here get a second guy then if you have a bad back so this puppy can pull a little bit and then it is so hard for them to accept the fact that yes your puppy can pull yeah let's go three months down the line and you will have a plethora of healing styles you couldn't even dream of how about that but this is hard to imagine if you don't have this it's hard to see the problem it's easier to see the problem in front of you than to imagine the the outcome of development that you've never even attempted in your life and I don't blame them for that that's why we have the videos that's why we can show them hey look at this this is what's

going to take place this is how it's going to turn out your dog is not going to be any different does your is your dog interest in food and toy and play and is he healthy okay you're good to go right so and that's a criteria so of course fear is a nullifier of all skills so if you say oh yeah he's interested in food he is interested in play he is healthy but he is very very fearful okay well then you know if there is fear it shuts down everything so then you can't work him so that means you need a different constellation okay so now you're going through a specific uh like setup for this specific dog and now it's become not general anymore because your puppy is not like he is healthy but mentally he is suffering from some issues yes that require a different approach and then people start troubleshooting on the on the fear stuff again without development the first thing you always create is the fun factor should be also there for fear fearful dogs so you create the fun uh for him for this dog in an environment where he is not fearful he can be in fearful 24 7 in every single room that you go to so there are spaces he is not so this is a space where we will create the development and the the the stage for him to do things that they enjoy and of course your uh outcome is gonna take a little bit longer than than a dog who is healthy who has like no problems being anywhere obviously that's it's speaks for itself but to go out there and believe you first need to fix his fear before you can start developing i get this question every day for every day my dog i want to take a program but my dog is fearful or i have this problem should i first fix this they they don't understand that if you create one thing it's eventually going to lead to not only fix but actually elevate your dog on so many levels that the problem sometimes even just goes away sometimes it's just a matter of the dog's not even getting like uh impulses to to be you know to be creative with something that or to be active with something also not people in certain problems can yeah oh yeah absolutely definitely huh that's very interesting so i think i think we got a uh an interesting view on on how you on your approach on on sts canine and i think there was uh mind-blowing also um different examples of of different uh i would say practitioners or correct me if you wouldn't call because uh before we record it i said maybe and i i don't know him i don't know mario i said maybe he just had it in his veins maybe he's a natural born um

talent but you said you would totally disagree so yeah we can and get back to that before we wrap it up why do you think well why would you disagree well let's just first speak the numbers you start at the age of 19 you get your first world title at 42 so so that means if you would tell anyone right now you could start today chasing your dream you'll get your reward maybe in 22 years 23 years you'll probably say wow that means a lot of training a lot of hard work a lot of analysis a lot of doing a lot of traveling a lot of everything so you can't just rub it off as oh it's just a natural gift it's just how i got lucky it's not luck it's not talent because talent is then redefined as what it's not it's not just your natural trait to do things better yes if you're talented for something means you have the ability to learn faster but even when you learn faster it could still take you a decade maybe even two in this case to achieve the desired result sure but the desired result was not becoming a world champion you don't choose to become a world champion you become good at training dogs you become good and this in the sport that you like you're passionate about it throughout all these years you add more expertise you add more new i would say features to your skills you add more maybe tools if they're advanced enough and so on so you add more things and ultimately they lead to result which is then remarkable enough to say okay he was talented no that's that's just a an easy way to describe the process of 20 years of work so i would and if you would like approach this scientifically it would actually mean it would be more competent than talented because on the flip side of talent is a competency which takes many years to develop to become extremely competent and would take a lot of energy a lot of repetitions a lot of doing a lot of discipline yes discipline and focus so that means you can actually also become a world champion as a very competent trainer all right so it's not like you have to be talented no you can be competent this is going to be a difference in time now that's why i say i'm i would based on the facts i wouldn't necessarily say right off the bat that mario is the most talented trainer because he won six times but he is definitely one of the most competent ones so you choose what you want to be as in as in let's say you had a choice i want to be the most talented yes but maybe you're not going to win that title and because winning titles of this format of this magnitude maybe involves developing a skill for so many years

that it doesn't even matter if you're talented or not you have to be extremely competent and then there is no difference anymore i don't know if you if you realize florian but at some point if you do if you if you match up two people that are going to execute the same thing right and in this case igp with a number of sequences it's not it's not just about who's the most talented at this point it can be somebody super talented and somebody extremely competent but not talented as that person and they could both either have same result or either competent can win but also the talented could win but you will not see it that's my point you will not see who is talented okay you will not see it because he's so competent you are not going to know unless you do you backtrack you analyze everything that went on before and of course in dog training there's also the other factor which is the talent of the dog that is florian full circle now that's why i created the mvp because you have the master view or the whole analysis on dog training skills for the handler and you have the dog skills that the dog needs to achieve so you're looking at two complete different skill sets for people and one for dogs and the combination is the master view because we'll look at it from two different views because your skills obviously are not dog skills dog skills are biting outing healing for example positions so movement drive switches focusing visuals it's not going to be your skill you're not going to bite stuff you have to do other things so yeah but you have to understand the complete analysis on both because if you don't understand the analysis on both then you're not going to have a great result so what is what do you think is is the most important coach skill in it's communication because expertise is one of the things that attracts people to be coached by you but if you can't communicate well then then how are you going to bring the message and by communication i mean on on a on a level of a personal level like i'm talking relationship not transactional personal level uh if you can't make that connection if you can't communicate on that level you will not be accepted as a coach you will be an advisor you will be a trainer you will be a reference but you will not be a coach let me let me make that very clear coaching means impacting people's lives you think anyone can just impact your life because he gives some good tips or because he's an expert at his field hell no i want to be coached by somebody who understands my deeper level of who i am

and is willing to communicate outside the expertise of what they own to to their connect so it is a connection the coachee chooses the coach it's not the coach who chooses his coachee very very different and that's why for example florian the police has a problem because they're all designated coaches so you as a police canine handler officer whatever they say here's your coach designated now listen to him what do you think happens it doesn't work because it's that is a pure transactional thing it's like this is your job this is what you do accept it move on no that's what that's why instructors barely have any impact on chasing a police officer's behavior uh when it comes to his professional development he will say yes in your eyes he will go home and do the exact same thing right yes that's that yeah that is training that i was an instructor trainer now i'm a coach for some people not everybody for some people i am just a trainer and for a few people i'm a coach depends on how deep the level is but this is like a mutual thing it's not like i choose them and they don't choose me like i said first of all they choose you so the coach he chooses their coach but that can only be mutual if i also feel that they really want to change as well because why else would i then go deeper in all this stuff if they if they don't have show any intention of of being that person if they don't want to change or they don't want to do anything that relates to developing on a personal level and on a skill level then there is no reason for me to coach them you see sure that's interesting yeah i i like to because still people you know use and of course this is not only in dog training but dog training but dog training is my my world but then people use terms and think of different meanings so that's why i was interested in in your coach definition and it totally makes sense totally makes sense to impact people's lives um and that's great and uh yeah i really like that that mission that you follow and also to speak it out uh not having uh how to say i have to i have to google translate this sure i have that all the time yeah i don't even know the word in german what other languages do you speak yeah i have i i sometimes have word finding problems maybe that's the reason why i only became a trainer hopefully that's the beauty of it you can talk less it's like as much as i like to talk with people i barely talk with dogs yeah barely yeah yeah i mean a different type of connection you know i think that actually that's a an interesting aspect because i barely talk to my dogs and

and the more interesting this i think for my dogs as soon as i i put vocals on them because it's not like this non-stop sound in their back so if there is there is a meaning oh i agree with that yeah yeah that's that's how i but look some people are like different they like to speak a lot and to to tell them shut up is not always the best thing then again we shift to the priorities it's like look talk all you want just make sure you got this one also and then they they talk themselves through one of those other skills as well which is fine because telling somebody do not do this and it doesn't like match up with their their own natural way of being you can't go against who somebody is right so if they want to talk and you feel like hey this is important for this person to talk and to communicate with their dog they should then then i i don't mind but look i would always be fair with them is that like you're talking all the time but like at some point you really have to get the other stuff down also you know so because you want the outcome yeah and then you have to do some some other stuff as well besides talking sure and there's no need to change the person's way of being oh i've look if i read some other mission statements for example i feel to me it feels more like it's my way or the highway as i have a very for example i would say a specific view on things yeah but look me training with mario says enough igp and what i do are almost opposites in many ways although i like healing but i train with foot my trains with the ball i train in combinations he trains statics and he trains sequences there's so many opposites we have and but i love that i love the fact somebody is not like me somebody doesn't think like me but somebody is as driven as me somebody who is who also wants the best for the dog i have no problem with that i have no problem with going with anyone live without any preparation whatsoever because i speak from the heart i don't have to think about this stuff it's what i do it's what i love it's what i want to share and i hope you disagree because the more you disagree the more you analyze your your own thought process also as discussions you know there's no such thing as losing or winning a discussion because it's there's only resentment then if you if you feel you lost some people want to make a point and i did the same mistake before like i want to like clash with people i want to i wanted to prove them they're wrong and it doesn't help anyone really because even if you were proven wrong

you will then feel resentment or you will feel you know you won't be happy about it's not like you're going to convert people that's what i find very interesting is some people try to convert people online by bringing a message that goes directly against their own opinions or or uh or their ethics or whatever it it just doesn't work like that guys you can't tell anybody who's a positive only supporter oh but i use a new caller in a way that is so beneficial and i have helped thousands of dogs uh saved because of this tool and and this is what i do so now you have to be pro color too does that ever happen i have i've never seen anybody raise their hand and say thank you for yeah for bringing this message you know i totally changed my mind i was so wrong i was so wrong forgive me i am now 100 pro e color no you see it doesn't it doesn't work it doesn't work that way have you have you read matthew mccona his book from last year called green lights no is it good what is it about yeah it's about his life so it's uh it's not as uh as dirty and muddy as david gogan's books but it's a there it's an interesting insight into his life and he obviously he he ran through some adventures and there is this story when he was and like like he had not a nightmare but he had some dreams and he tried to chase the dreams and that led him to um that led him to africa and he uh he was in this village talking with two older guys in this village and then a young woman um approached obviously a prostitute and she talked to them just how the days and then she moved on and then these two old guys from the village started a discussion about whether it's okay to earn some money because she needs to feed her family or the the profession that she's following is is just a no-go for a young girl like her so they had this discussion and then they asked matthew matthew what do you think about it and matthew thought and he said well i think he is right so with he's right he meant the guy's right whose opinion was that it's not okay for a young girl to have this profession but then the guy he wanted to support didn't yell at him but he said well it's not about being right or wrong in the discussion it's it's not to prove the other one wrong or right it's about making your statement clear and try to um give understanding about what you're thinking and i think i thought that's similar to what you said it's uh yeah that's an interesting discussion then because if i try to find arguments to make to try to make you um understand what i think not to try to say no you're wrong um i think that could be a

beneficial way of uh talking to each other yeah but look the the thing is in social media everything is fast and polarized so either you're on board or you're against so if i would say for example look guys i'm not positive only but i'm not also balanced i don't even like the two frames and i don't like the two sentences that's a whole yes it it feels off to me so especially being pushed in either one of them because there's many balanced people i cannot align with there's many positive only people that i cannot align with so and that's a problem so how do you define it then people want you want to define you because that's been one of my big problems is you know what do you do define yourself law enforcement no oh sports competitor yes have been not now uh what is it then behavior no not behavior so what is performance you see so they if they can't name it it feels like well then what are you what they want to align with you they want to team up with people that they know belong in the same beliefs because your best friends florian that's a personal question maybe but your best friends usually have the same values and beliefs it's that's not that's not like a coincidence you usually team up with people who value the same things and who have common beliefs about ethics and about you know multiple things if if if this that goes against each other in all these areas from politics to to even training dogs and to religion if everything is opposite it's very unlikely that is your best friend sure yeah so that's the reality of things so that's why i say look for the people that don't want to use tools like yeah i mean great that's that's actually they don't harm anyone by not using tools of course it becomes a problem when they want to shut down everybody who does use a tool because they're not like them but that's that's more an individual problem it's this is that's not a a government problem actually that's not an abuse problem it's more a personal problem if yours if your mind thinks if i believe that's the way and nobody else should be allowed then because i have this belief that's a extremist right that's just like i want to push my belief onto anyone because it's what i believe and it's very wrong and that's why there's so much bullshit going on in the community in the industry like these people calling each other out tagging each other how do you tag a person's name to get some clout out off of it if you completely do not want to engage with this type of person you you completely there's no there's no benefit in it but

you know what the game has begun has as as as it became i mean it's became a popularity race like oh but this guy has so much followers if i tag him maybe i got some eyeballs on him dude you don't even want those eyeballs on you because his followers are the community that follow him for his beliefs and his his his his way of working they're not going to convert to you bro you know what i mean so i don't even know why that is such a big thing why you want to polarize even more and and stir up even more try to attract one clan to the other so they can collide even more this is actually the this is why i go i look at from a distance i go like whatever man i'm sure if that makes you happy you want to prove them wrong you want it you want to bring the articles out they like they're putting each other under pressure to like yeah and like answer this man answer this look i've i've read another book maybe not an author you would uh assume to be an author but i like this book a lot 50 cent you know 50 cent also wrote a book and one of his quotes were you don't know anybody and nobody owes you and i really like that and it relates to entitlement and it relates to the people that feel they they you need to give them something you don't need to do anything man you can be yourself you could you could choose you don't you don't need to do anything but also don't expect people to do things for you that i found this very powerful so uh and and i think it goes across the board you know what is social media like shit man i don't know you like some people even sometimes message me i need this in in in another language like send me this like demand demand stuff it's like no man it's like i find this like i'm not angry or something they send me this but i found this interesting like where does this come from like this demanding it's like i owe them almost i don't know anybody and and on social media like um once you start tagging people's name in a negative way how do you expect positive things to come out really and i've i've been like and i go to my old self i'm talking 10 12 15 years ago when i had a negative comment i would literally shark on this person i would want to prove them wrong that bad yes i would like ridicule them and i was good with words and i would like deliberately make them feel bad they would come back with a vengeance of course back and forth you know they're sparring on the internet what what are we doing what are we doing like first of all this person has no value to you because you don't even know them and if if you do know them because they're famous or whatever and

you want to use their name you want to use another person's name in a negative way so you can attract positivity you're out of your mind it's not going to happen so i don't like these stories man i like to write a story where there is always education and and unity and i feel this doesn't do it so when people unfollow me i think that's a great thing man because they that means my view of things and what i do is not attractive to them that's the best thing you could do is unfollow somebody you know if somebody really annoys you why would you even follow them why would you comment on them like move on man time is short like scroll keep swiping there's going to be somebody else you do like put your energy in that kind of stuff exactly so because that's what we're in charge of there are so many things that we can't um manipulate but we can choose what content we see and who we who we deal with there we go man that's that's right i know there's some uh like huge controversies in the us of trainers that are abusive whatever i'm thinking the only thing i regret you know what that is that their title is also dog trainer and so is mine that's the only thing that there is only that for the common people like for example there's these big names that are controversial the way they approach things and stuff like that and then you have people like hating on them because of how they do things but i i see the only problem i see is we have a similar title like they carry dog trainer and i carry dog trainer and that's the only issue actually that somebody else would perceive us as we are the same profession we're doing the same thing but actually now i see that as a challenge because now i see that as i think i have to do more explanation on what i do so i wouldn't be misinterpreted or i would say i wouldn't be how do you say it i wouldn't be um uh confused with this other person's profession yes for example like i'm going to give you something that's like i could drop a name here for example when i tell my family who don't know what i do and i say i train professional dog trainer and say like caesar milan yeah you say it's like caesar milan i say yeah that's not what i do but i understand and this is this that means uh what i do is not not known enough so performing like you know giving dogs purpose even the little dogs even the house dogs but it's it's not known yet everything is known that these are basic obedience pet dog or you have working dog you see all those boxes and i'm i'm trying to cross some bridges here and i'm saying like

actually give me that pet dog too and now we're doing we're doing cool stuff with a pet dog yesterday i did a real it was a pit bull versus a prog ratter i don't know if you ever heard of that breed it's a very tiny breed doing exact same stuff sidestep barking on target back into focus back into a down like it's so cool to see the two opposite breeds doing the exact same thing and that's what i stand for that is like it doesn't matter man what what dog you have or where you come from or what purpose you have if you want something and you're you want to do it let's go out and do it there shouldn't be no limits because that's what they try to tell me i want to shut you down all the time stop doing this stop doing that why do you do this you know hmm makes sense in many ways so actually and one more thing and concerning the positive only thing and for me this is on the one hand it is very frustrating because first of all they have a good idea of not harming dogs or animals that that's a that's a good start but it's i think it's not possible and it could be even more aversive in just waiting for the act of the animal to show something that can be rewarded and leave them alone until they show that without giving them any other consequences i think that's just not realistic and that's that's the that's the hard thing also i dislike um the labeling of of rather balanced lima or whatever it is i don't know if it was you last year who said um that because i think i said something like science based i don't know if it was you or someone else and and they said well it makes no sense neither because we are no scientists we are we're dog trainers and yeah i don't know but when you say it's impossible what do you mean like positive only it's impossible like what do you mean then it's what what what are you exactly talking about that is impossible because if you tell me can you make a dog sit and stay without tools or just positive i would say yeah of course you can't what so define what you say is impossible please i think for example maybe i just don't have enough skills but i'm for for me it would be impossible to train a dog with positive reinforcement only to have a good life in the inner city of vienna and to say okay so now you're talking very specific first of all i don't know how life in the city is in vienna i don't know what breed you're talking about i don't know what kind of life you live in the city because maybe your life in the city could be i'm just sitting at an apartment waiting till it's dark

go out let my dog out so now it's very specific like the life in vienna or what is that what breed you're talking about you walk your dog using public transportation there there are so many chances so if you think of errorless learning i i imagine reflection that is not human-like to gain that quality of training that can have a positive only and positive only as positive reinforcement because the people think of not positive punishment well but but you see you you assume already you assume that the positive only knows the quadrants i i don't assume the positive only knows the quadrants you know i don't assume that i actually what i what i think is most people that that i talk to when i say positive only they just think oh you're not correcting a dog with tools exactly but yes but actually that could be done there is a way to live a life with a dog i believe in vienna said even without correcting the dog as but then of course we would need to find what a correction is and how you would go about this i think kind of easy for for example okay let me let me tell you this if you're talking about oracallis extremely intelligent a ball is like for some of them is the the the god right it's you can do anything this dog is intelligent he wants to learn he is fast he's adaptable he is sensitive or she is sensitive so that means they they they are easy sometimes for some people to work with so if you dedicate your life for example on training this dog every day with this ball and then bringing him to situations and and then i see a person like himana while i go in in the city with three dogs off leash well they have a leash on because it's required by law but i know she she does the same thing here like we and they're all walking all without leashes and i know she's not done that so i know it is possible but of course you're talking about it a different kind of person when it comes to skill and different type of breed and so on so so everything depends on the parameters and and also what you consider as what is positive only is that only cookies and and cheese along the way or or is that sometimes maybe not given a reward because then it's already that's not positive only because not given the reward is like uh what you say yeah that's a different quadrant yeah so you see so it can be that's already the problem with the labeling so if uh people need to be asked what is a a correction or or not in the end the the receiver decides and we will see if the the behavior gets less or more or or stays the same

yeah because um you know for for probably for a border call is something else is a punisher rather to a a bully yeah of course not not given a dog who dies for their reward so to speaking not getting it it's like yeah what worse could there happen you're not getting what you want so yes that that mindset is totally different then so interesting stuff you know because it just opens this debate in a whole different perspective looking at it from what breed it is what kind of person that is going to teach all these skills what kind of intention they have like what kind of outcome they have maybe they don't want to be in the city maybe they live in the country maybe just want to have fun you know working their dogs and whatever and then these people have a strong opinion on positive only force and i can understand that if you have results and you said hey you know what i did this all without corrections like who are you then to tell me that this is okay and if i have a heart for animals and dogs and i want to i want to like vote for i want to have a strong voice when it comes to this opinion i want to vocalize that by showing that it's it's it's not supposed to be like that like i can see that too i mean yeah i just i just try to put myself in these people's positions also and think if you have shown or proved your right and then that's what you believe and that's what you believe but from our perspective we're coming from law enforcement we're coming from a competitive ring uh obedience and ring sports and protection work and for them to somebody hear them say oh but no corrections and no tools uh immediately you would say shortcut that's not possible never seen anybody do this never seen any dog being trained without ever getting a correction whatsoever so immediately your brain blocks that and says this is wrong and that's where that's where there's there's no there's no common ground then to discuss and that's why i believe me for example talking to a youtube trainer with millions of followers who has done nothing but positive only in his work but it doesn't relate to my work why should we even have a debate like it's different man like if if you want to have a debate with somebody at least talk about the same league or sport will you you can't you can't have a debate with somebody about politics for example let's say you're a lawyer and you want to talk about the legal system and you talk about with your reasoning but i come i live in europe and somebody lives in the united states and the legal system is totally different

and then we try to reason each other with total different laws total different backgrounds total different education total different everything yes at this at some point you will reach like a level of understanding because you're both specialized in understanding laws and texts and legalities but the application of it is going to be totally different so if that person for example is not willing to understand the things about europe or vice versa and then this case beltering what i do and they cannot live in my world it's going to be very hard you know but why would we have this conversation then if that's not what they want it's not what i want so why do we feel this urge to to talk to these people then i don't know i don't know it's it's like i there's animal activists that i see do really good stuff but if i would have to talk to them about the e-collar we would probably disagree on a lot of things but that's normal i don't expect them to know everything about my world and i can see the perspective of how they perceive their own world sure so it's not right yeah i can i can also understand well in austria i don't know how much you know about it in austria e-collars are not allowed neither are pinch colors etc and and so i've had different people in the podcast as you know and people who like you who who would not prefer to work only with a an e-collar but maybe there are some situations and cases where it could make sense to have the proper use of it and the thing is i understand all those people who who want to ban it because there has been so many misuses of the tools and yeah it's uh it's a hard thing well it was an easy political thing because that decision is because we i mean also in the uh the research of why how this decision came to act like and then you actually find out that this is the motivation behind this decision is not necessarily uh based on education and on expertise and on data because there is no data and there's very little expertise so it's more based on emotions and then you know it's uh it's it's common for politicians to speak of things that have people's emotions going rather than their rational thinking or whatever you know it's easy to to say foreigners are stealing your money if you're you know if you're out of money and and you're looking for a scapegoat you know it's it makes sense for people like for example if if your government gives a tax cut to a multinational which costs the tax cut could be let's say 200 million 300 would be like a lot of money and a bunch of foreigners that you think of or maybe a

fragment of of that money but because that is more relatable to you because that's that you know that guy in your street doing nothing all day and and to put your emotion on that person it's way easier than to go into hey yeah they gave a tax cut on this multinational to for what how much money like oh okay well you see it's it's it's too far away for you it's it's not something you take in your reasoning as well if i'm gonna on the guy who has a different color of skin and doesn't have a job it shouldn't it be right for you to also look at what they decided to to cut taxes on on these big firms who you know who also you know could have been making money for the government but they decided not to and decided to give them incentives and then you're poor you don't have money and it's easy to to blame somebody else so the blame game is something i see in all over and and it's the same with the e-collar it's like yeah but animals are suffering it's because of you man oh why is it because of me because you use a collar you see so you you're being blamed yeah yeah you're being blamed so and if the government for example in essence think about it florian if they put a ban here i could actually sue the government you know for um what they say uh how do you say it again uh um for um the uh uh they're like um how do i need slandering slandering yes i could say hey i'm suing them for slandering because they gave they made this illegal so they make a criminal out of me so therefore my business is perceived as a business that uh is acting in criminal activities and i feel that the government is slandering my my company my name because they have no proof because when the slandering um is unlawful when they tell things about you that are untrue so if somebody went to jail for murdering somebody and you put on the internet this guy murdered somebody this is not slandering it's true it's like you went to court and it's true it's slander if you say you killed somebody but you didn't you see so if they say they say uh using any color is abuse is same as abuse then they say i'm an animal abuser which i'm not and therefore i want to sue the government because they accuse me of animal abuse which i have not done you see where i'm going and so i wouldn't even know where that makes any sense uh legally i'm not a lawyer myself but it's anyways it's one of those things right because it's easy to condemn and to say it's it's illegal it's nice is this but obviously they all all know that there are some experts that can use it in many ways that might not be but it's

easier to say it is because it's ran on emotions this is not something that was cognitively decided as this is really bad because look we have all these verdicts of all these courts for animal abuse no it's not like that it's it wasn't like that in austria it wasn't like that in germany it wasn't like that in scandinavia it wasn't like that it's a decision made based on what the majority of the people voted for which is in this case the politicians who said we're going to ban this and we're going to do a lot of people a favor you know who run this emotion that's why also extreme right parties in austria by the way i think also got a lot of success because they also play that game on emotions it's like these guys messed it up for you we're going to do something about it you see so these people are using eight colors we're going to do something about it we're going to ban them in the case of the foreigners we're going to send them back or we're not going to give them money anymore and we're going to make it harder to come here so all these kind of things but it works it's very the more polarizing it is the better it scores trump trump going heavy on the mexican border very polarized because if you're a mexican you're going to build a border like have kids die at the fence like you know separate them you could say humanity wise it's a very great cruel decision to separate kids from their parents you know back in a few years ago yet he still he still had the most votes so even though that was the case it ran on emotions for some people this emotion fits them well and for other people this emotion doesn't so i'm not here to talk politics you know because yeah but it is but it's a politic politician uh a politic decision to ban colors this is this is not like uh this is not enforced by the police but it is first uh it's executed yes it's executed yes so first they make a law and therefore there are politicians who submit the law and then that's and that's also something that we research like why did all these parties agree with this oh you'd be very interesting in that outcome you know why because you know they actually said we are not against it the majority of the parties because there's only eight parties here in belgium the majority of the parties actually said that we actually either we don't have an expert who knows anything about this and the expert that knows something about this was actually not against it but they you know how politics work right it's give and take you want this we're going to give it to you because it doesn't affect us but if

we want something in return you're going to give it to us too this is a give and take game so for them to to not fight something yes they don't know something about you can have this next year give us that remember we gave you this this is really how it works this is how politics work it's give and take and so and you can you can like it or or not but that's the reality that's life and that's why the good will pay for the bad sure just yeah that's what it is so you know um i think i don't i can't remember if we had this at the first time already but there is the in the very end last but not least and there is the question from the guest before can you remember did we have that in the first talk yes we did yeah okay so um unfortunately well not unfortunately but the last uh interview i did was uh not planned so i i i wasn't prepared we just met for a training actually it was an internship and i had an interview with uh with this guy uh but the interview before i had with uwe heis who is this uh german hunting dog trainer and he's he's already in an older semester as as we would say and he went through all kinds of stages in dog training from very harsh and brutal to trying to do the positive only way um he found himself in a uh in a working in a working in a working cocktail of of consequences let's say it like this so his question and i had to translate it i i really hope it somehow makes sense is how can we make ethically justifiable and educationally valuable constraints socially acceptable so i will copy paste that into our chat because maybe my language is not always the very best so he used in german quite fancy language um yes but i'm missing something still here because how can you make ethically justifiable educationally valuable constraints so what what are the constraints then constraints are like um it's like a like like a sort of force like uh uh corrections for example yes yeah yes yeah sure punishment and use a force towards the learner to give him to give him certain consequences and he's asking our or how can we make people understand that there are um valuable but yeah force and and how how can ours um well if it relates to correct does it relate to corrections yes definitely yes so yes there's there's actually already an ethical and justifiable and socially accepted norm for this which is by any means you will stop any animal from harming another person by any means so that means back in the day when in law enforcement when we had to when we were in riots and our dogs apprehended multiple people and one of one of these police officers uh took their uh stick

which is not meant for the dog but for to hit people with i don't know how you call that in english so the weapon stick whatever and they hit the dog on the head right between the eyes to have him out and then um you know internal affairs were doing all these investigations of all these multiple uh bite incidents and i remember one of the interrogations for this uh police canine handler was uh yes we have this problem here we uh you know you have uh let your dog lose well not lose but you let your dog apprehend somebody with these and these injuries and on top of that we also have uh another extra complaint that you have violated animal rights here because you have multiple times um hit your dog uh between the eyes with this weapon stick yeah and this was immediately dismissed um why because if your dog is killing someone biting somebody doing whatever you can stop them by any means so if you pull off their ear you're gonna have to pull off their rear if you hit them with the stick to make them out you're gonna have to hit them with the stick would there be other choices other options that's a whole different question that's where you could say is that justifiable and educationally valuable than hitting a dog with a stick i would say um justifiable yes educationally valuable not so much but socially accepted you can't be accepted because what else can you do shoot the dog on the spot pepper spray him but what else can you do so at that point that was justifiable but not very educational but socially must be accepted because she actually helped the person in this case yeah so but i i rather think that the intention of his question was like more more like how can and and that's his um position so he thinks that or yeah his attitude is that there need to be certain um punishments or corrections done well that's his opinion yeah so but then again we would have to talk and say look you're in whatever industry that is then how do you define that then like i i need to because this is so again leaves so much up for interpretation imagination that i will go into it intuitively against what he says why should this be educationally valuable and justifiable just because you can do the things that you want to do and i'm i'm going to quote something really interesting here the hunting lobby uh filed an appeal the in the supreme court the hunting lobby filed a lawsuit against the government of belgium for installing this ban so and you can only do that you can only fight a law in the supreme court so that's a higher order of courts and you need a special lawyer who can actually make pleats

there etc it's very expensive also to do this and i read the they call it the arrest it's arrest because it's not a verdict if the higher supreme courts makes a verdict they have a different name for it but i don't know the name in english but anyways i read it okay okay and one of the points they made because the hunting lobby said we must make sure that our dogs cannot hurt uh you know cannot get hurt or hurt somebody else in traffic by during their mission of of retrieving the animal etc etc maybe go on the on the roads and then cause issues there etc we must by all times have some kind of level of control and leverage that we can always recall the dog and so on you know what you know what the judges how they threw this off the off the board they said you wanting to hunt and you wanting to pursue this does not justify neither does it become socially acceptable that you should be handed these tools to do the things you want to do just because you want to do them you understand what they meant so it's also something to think about it's not because you want to pursue a certain outcome which is for you a performance or a higher standard or a higher purpose for a dog that you that we should give you the tools to do this if this tool is controversial or is not socially acceptable so it kind of goes in the same realm because they that's how they dismissed it they actually said hunting is not like a birthright or something it's not like oh you have a hunting dog we should we should make sure that you could do anything now to have this dog hunt okay they actually said the opposite they said you want to hunt that's fine then make sure your dog at least knows some other stuff before if he's if he's really a menace maybe if he is like a danger a threat maybe then you shouldn't go hunt you see so if if at some point if correction must be justified and socially acceptable because it is controversial then we must maybe ask ourselves is it then something rightful to do and that's why some people like in austria are asking is protection sports something we really need to do if that is the cost and that is the action that people want to take to have a protection dog sure and and this is where the debate opens because i saw a lot of people getting very emotional about this because they love their sport they love everything and then and i i totally understand that but i see also the perspective of why why the urge is all of a sudden to ban a protection sport for example obviously because yes because they question the the ethics of is this is

this something we need a dog that bites people that's the first ethical question but you can always go back and say do we need to own a dog well yeah well yeah it's domesticated so we should and so on and so on so you you can keep dialing this back until it literally becomes nothing anymore okay then don't own dogs and don't do sports and don't do anything so and that's where it came to is it's a it's a sad thing and everybody has their opinion uh i think it's a great question but i don't think there is a like a real answer for it because this is too much open for my imagination to to to go with this and see okay does he mean a correction and if said so what how where who why when so so many variables and that's why justice is always based on all these variables and not by law you are now sentenced by death because you did this no we always take circumstances in account the story the background the purpose the intention that that that is that is justice that is why justice works and that's why you can be happy and me can be happy that we live in europe where there is something as justice oh definitely yes go go live in north korea then maybe they allow e-collars but i'm not going there i don't know you know what i mean so do you have kids nino yeah i have a daughter she's eight yeah and would you compare somehow um the education of kids with uh training animals like their consequences their rewards and their uh yes and also i think comes back to what we said is a choice a choice i make is i want to train train is the wrong word but i want to educate my daughter by rewards rather than punishment right so although punishment has been proven to be very effective for many kids and many in the past but it's a personal choice it's something that look there's always a flip side of things if i choose punishment it could work really well and she could thank me later but it might might might also affect our relationship and connection so then the question comes back to me nino are you willing to do this punishment and whatever that is could be you know um screaming even right i could scream to her yeah yes for some kids that is punishment yes so do do what would i risk that and and usually if i'm not in an emotional state i would say i wouldn't i'm not in a higher emotional state where i'm angry but then when you make wrong decisions you know so and and the same goes for dog are you going to train your dogs when you're angry you shouldn't because that's when you're going to make wrong decisions right and

that's something in my opinion which gets lost so many times um i want to deliver the emotion of what the dog wants to have in in the reward so i want to talk to to see the ball or have the food in mind and works for that and that actually makes it very easy for me to also hand my dog to the next handler to do the same search deployment as i would do because the dog is still working not for me not because they love me i hope they like me but and we have good relationship but they need they need another sense in like i didn't work for my boss when i was a paramedic i i worked for the salary and not minding who who whoever would pay me exactly yes yeah bosses change but yeah checks stay the same so you know um i think the the time has almost expired of how long we can record and it's more than the first time it's great so but before we end this what would be your question for the next guest not knowing who it will be um my question would be then let me think can i have a minute because i think uh something to think consider what i would want to ask somebody i don't even know i like to ask questions to you where you don't immediately answer right away so it's impressive right um it's gonna be a dog trainer right no it can be business related or in general can be very spiritual although we most of the time have dog related questions yeah i am cool what question i would i would i would ask them if they understand their inner why i think that that i would believe is a existential question your inner why why you do the things you do i i always wanted for me that's how i started dog training is i didn't ask how immediately i wanted to know why why did you choose to do the things you do and the way you do them and that that answer if you would ask me this question we can go another three hours yeah because i think it's it's very important that you know the answer to this because if not this means that you are influenced or led by another opinion or by another thinking process which was not yours and i think you should always answer to yourself also you know it's it's gonna this helped me develop my way of training and help me get my own ideas i see a lot of people that and not this time i'm not talking dog training but uh for example like influencers uh who give coaching to become rich etc these kids and these people that buy into them they become these influencers how they speak how they act how they do but that's that's copy paste is not their inner why this is it doesn't belong to them you see it's not their journey it's not

their their call to answer in the way that they have would have and i understand that in the development phase you're seeking yourself continuously but at some point so regardless i mean regarding how uh old this person is that you're going to have on the show i find this a very important question on what is your inner why why do you things to do why you do the things you do why why did you choose this and why do you choose them to do it this way because there's probably many ways to do things and why did you choose this with your life and and probably also it depends on the stage of life and it's a yeah thing answer so um there are there two names who most of us will know and i don't know yet who will be the first so we're stating thank you neil for taking time i'm really like you take a lot of time so we were have never been stressed not in the first one not in the second one i really appreciate and i'm sure our listeners liked again uh what we talked about so marathon again basics yeah yeah yeah it's a good thing so anything else you want to point out anything to announce yeah well i appreciate you for in for reaching out and hearing other people uh speak i think it's a very genuine thing because most people people love speaking about themselves love speaking about their passion it's it's very common that people really enjoy that but to um give your platform to make that available to have somebody else speak about their passion their opinion is a very noble thing to do so i want to express my gratitude and appreciation for somebody who's willing to do that spend their time as well to give other people a voice and opinion and uh that's that's really great so appreciate that you are very respectful and your with the way you treat people and your your speakers and yeah i would say keep going florian doing a great thing so i enjoy this a lot thank you great hopefully we talk again see you bye hopefully so ! ! ! ! Thank you. Thank you.