E132: 사라 브루스크(Sarah Brueske) - "시작하기: 마커 신호와 기초 기술"

most part, and then some protection sports sprinkled in as well. Awesome. So I know whenever I watch your training videos, because you're awesome and you share them on Facebook a lot, I can't help but notice how quickly your dogs seem to kind of pick up on new things and learn what you're trying to teach them, right? So while I'm sure that part of it is that you're awesome at picking out genius dogs, what is it about how you structure your training that actually helps with that? I do have pretty amazing dogs. We all think our dogs are the best dogs. And well, my dogs, I'm sorry to tell everybody else, they are the best dogs. But beside that, I use a lot of concepts and conceptual training in my program. So that means I teach my dogs the ideas on what they're learning before they actually get to the final behavior I'm looking for. So an example of this is if I want to teach my dog like head targeting heel position, they learn head targeting in motion and for duration on my hand first. And then that way, it's an easy concept to transfer over to that heel position. And so by teaching all these different concepts, my dogs can pick up new behaviors related to those concepts relatively easy. And so while the video I post on Facebook or on Instagram, it might show that learning this new behavior right away within, you know, three or four minutes. But in reality, they learned the idea for that behavior back maybe when they were 10, 12 weeks old or, you know, maybe a year before that. And so it's pretty easy for them to go, oh, this is the idea you're looking for. I have to do it in this context instead of that context. And so I spend a lot of time teaching my dogs all sorts of different concepts to help make sure that when I get to a certain behavior down the road, they'll have an easier time on it. Gotcha. So I know that, you know, part of that whole core concept thing is that your marker system is pretty central to your training. So to start us off, can you explain a little bit about what a marker system is and then what it is about the concept that's kind of made it the center of so much discussion and performance training circles these days? Yeah. So a marker system, and we all pretty much have it. So if you're training any sort of clicker training or even if you're just using the verbal marker, yes, before you reward your dog, you have a marker system. There are just some marker systems that are a little bit more complex than others. So if we get really into it, there are some marker systems that are incredibly detailed,

meaning my marker is going to tell my dog what they're going to get rewarded with, how they're going to get that reward, where they're going to get that reward. And that way I can really manipulate how they're feeling about that reward and then eventually how they're feeling about that behavior itself that I'm reinforcing. And so there's a whole bunch of really cool things that marker systems do for us. They help us, like I said, get that arousal level, that emotional aspect of the behavior we're going for. But also it helps us teach the behavior itself. And so if I'm teaching my dog to heal, for example, again, and I always say yes and then reward my dog, it doesn't matter where I reward my dog. When I say yes and my dog has a response to that marker, they generally pop forward a little bit. And so that popping forward actually ends up becoming like a forging and healing. And so with just that one generic yes marker word, what ends up happening is our dogs end up forging in heal position because they're popping forward to see where we're going to be rewarding them. If I have a way of telling my dogs, hey, you're going to get this reward that's going to be behind you, that pop forward actually gets eliminated. They're immediately going to spin around to get that reward behind them. And so therefore, I'm not inserting any bad habits into my healing position. And so that's why it's really kind of taken off in performance circles these days is because people are starting to realize that they can use these location specific markers to get rid of some bad habits within the behaviors. And that's, I think, where most people get the enjoyment from it. But why I really, really like it is because I can help manipulate arousal levels, meaning I can use the fact that my dog gets very excited for me throwing a toy versus me handing them a toy. I can use that to help transfer their emotional level to the behavior itself. I also really like it because they actually teach a little bit of verbal discrimination right off the bat. So there's a whole bunch of different reasons on why people are so excited about multiple marker systems. Do you want to explain the verbal discrimination thing just a little more? Yeah. So that's one of my favorite things. So verbal discrimination has always been one of my most difficult parts when I train dogs. I couldn't get my dogs to understand the difference between sit down stand, for example, without giving them a little bit of a hand signal or a lure or a little bit of body language help.

And so it's always been a weak part in my training until I started introducing multiple marker systems. And so that's something you can do with your dog right as soon as you get them, teach them the difference between the marker get it for me, which is I'm going to throw the food reward. Or yes, take the food from my hand. And so right off the bat, your dog is learning to discriminate between those two words without risking or adding stress or negative emotions to a finished behavior like your position changes. And so I found that the dogs that start off with having to distinguish between markers and where they're going to get the reward and how they're going to get it. Those dogs are so much easier to teach that verbal discrimination to down the bat because they're learning the concept of it right off from the beginning. So do you have the same marker cue system for all of your dogs? Can you talk a little bit about what that system maybe is? Maybe share some of your cues? Yeah. So no, I don't have the same for all of my dogs. And the reason for that is they do different sports and they have different needs. And so I always tell people that, you know, when you're building your multiple marker system, do what works for you. Just because I use a marker doesn't mean you need it in your training. And the more you overcomplicate things, the more difficult it is for you to remember and more difficult for your dog to remember. And so it really makes sense to cater a system to the dog itself and the sport that you're learning. So for example, my dogs that mostly do Frisbee, they have maybe four markers tops. And then when we narrow it down, they only have two that are really relevant to disc dog training. They have Mark, which means come bite the Frisbee in my hand for a tug reward or get it, which means I'm going to throw that Frisbee and chase it down. And so you can kind of figure out why I would have those two discriminated because I don't want to say get it and have my dog jump at me to take a tug reward. I can really control how they react to that. But that being said, Creature, my Monty Arane prospect, he's actually going to start trying here in October, I believe. He has, last I counted, 16 different markers. And all of those markers tell him what reward he's going to get, how I'm going to give him that reward. Some of them are termination markers, meaning they end the behavior. Some of them are continuation markers, meaning he has to maintain the behavior until he gets the reward or as he's getting the reward. Some of them are designed to get him really, really excited.

So my chase means I'm going to throw the toy for you. He gets super pumped for that versus face means I'm going to deliver this toy to your face. It's a continuation marker. So for instance, if he's doing a down stay and I say face, that means I'm going to go ahead and deliver that toy to his face. And so that's a little bit of a lower arousal marker. I think kind of the biggest reason I see that people, you know, don't want to implement a marker system is that they say they can't remember all of the different cues. Any advice on that front? Yeah, that was me. I fought it for the longest time because I have a really hard time remembering the words I need to say when I need to say them. And so I have found that when we teach markers to our dogs, we tend to teach one new one and pair that with an old one. And so this is for the dog's benefit, obviously. So they're not learning multiple things at the same time. But it's also kind of for our benefit as well, because if we're only teaching one new marker at a time, that means that we're only having to learn one new marker at a time. And so I really encourage people to not jump in and do like seven different markers all at the same time, not just for the dog, you know, but for their sake as well, because that just is going to lead to frustration. And then the handlers are going to be like, can't do it. So definitely one at a time is the way to go. And then the other thing that I like to tell people, and really the benefit of multiple markers is that reaction you get from the marker itself. So I tell them to envision that reaction and watch for it in their dog before delivering that reward. So then what ends up happening is you start to see that reaction, and that reaction starts getting paired to that word in your mind. So for instance, when I say chase to creature, which means I'm going to throw the toy, you're going to chase it. I want to see him lean back in anticipation. I want his ears to go slightly back, and I want him to dance on his front feet because he has no idea where I want to be throwing it. And so if I say chase and I see that reaction, now I'm pairing those two things in my mind, and it's going to be easier for me to remember that, oh, this is the reaction I want. I want him to get excited. So I need to say the word chase without even thinking about it. So if you start thinking about it in reactions versus how you're actually going to deliver the reward, it tends to be a little bit easier, at least for me, to remember which marker goes where. Just kind of before we shift subjects just a little bit, what other benefits do you attribute

to having and using multiple marker cues? I think the other benefit that I haven't mentioned already is it kind of creates a thoughtful dog. So that allows me to see where my dog's mindset is. So I use it a lot around decoys and protection training. One of the games I play with my dog is a multiple marker game where I say a marker, I want to see the reaction that is paired with that. So again, if it's like chase, I want to see the dancing feet and the anticipation of me throwing it. Um, and if I don't see the reaction I typically would see, that tells me that my dog isn't really in the mindset to pay attention or to train or to maybe learn a new thing or to do those trial behaviors in that environment or around that distraction. So for instance, when creature and I go work with a new decoy or we walk on the field with, um, with decoys on the field, the very first thing I do with him is that multiple marker game. Because if he can't remember what chase means versus mark, which means bite the toy for my hand, then there's no way he's going to remember what down or heel or any of those complex behavior means around that decoy. And so that's a huge benefit. Um, just being able to read your dog, understand, um, kind of where they're at in that moment and always be able to fall back on those multiple markers and make sure that you're seeing the reaction you're supposed to be seeing. Um, and so from there you can, you know, you can control arousal level. There's a whole bunch of really cool things you can do with it at that point. So that leads really nicely into kind of where I wanted to go next, which is, you know, I see posts all the time these days about frustration and over arousal in performance dogs. And, you know, kind of you listed some of the breeds you have earlier and they are breeds that have a tendency maybe to some of those, um, having big feelings. Um, so can you share a little bit about, a little bit about how you try to kind of anticipate those problems? Yeah. Um, big feelings is the best way to go about it. I feel like Creature has so many feelings all of the time. I'm just going to keep using him as example because he is just such a great example, which I don't know is a good thing or a bad thing. Um, so Creature has a lot of feelings. Um, and one of the main things I focused on when he was a puppy was the ability to move from high arousal things down to low arousal things. Because again, in monitoring, we have to go from even just on the obedience side, one of the judge's favorite things to do nowadays is to pair the send away, which means my dog

needs to run as fast as he can in the direction I point him in and then recall as fast as he can as soon as I blow the whistle. So it's a very high arousal obedience behavior. Definitely one of my dog's favorites. Um, with the Littlewood exercise, which I know it has a funny name, forgive me. Um, Littlewood is actually a handler scent discrimination exercise. And so basically there's a whole bunch of pieces of Littlewood out there. One of them has your scent and your dog has to go get it. Um, so it's, it's definitely putting your dog in the hunt state of mind rather than the prey, which is what the send away is. And so your dog's going from the send away being totally jazzed about running as fast as you can to now all of a sudden I have to think and find that right piece of wood and bring it back in a retrieve and hold it calmly as my handler takes it from me. Two very opposite behaviors. And so I knew right away going into the sport that my dog that is definitely going to have arousal issues because of the lines he's from, he's going to have to learn to do that. And so one of the things I was able to do is take those multiple markers and start figuring out, okay, so for this dog, um, his tug marker is the highest arousal marker he has. And the same with his chase marker. So the one where he gets to chase the thrown toy versus a scatter where I scatter the kibble on the ground. That is the least arousal marker I have. So I was able to start with the middle two. So if I have 16 different ways of reinforcing my dog, the two that are right next to each other, right in the middle, bouncing back and forth between those. And they're going one higher than one lower and then one higher and one lower until my dog was able to go from tug all the way down to scatter without missing a beat. And so that was a huge opening door because I didn't have to risk any of my behavior. So I didn't have to go, um, and, and throw away my, my poor little wood behavior in hopes that my dog was going to do it because I was able to go, okay, can he go from this marker all the way down to this bottom marker without a problem? If he can do that, then maybe he can go from his send away to the little wood or send away to maybe a medium arousal behavior than down to the, the little wood one. So it really helped me use, um, the markers in a more systematic way that way and helped me learn to manage his arousal levels a bit. Kind of talking about arousal and frustration, what are some of the early warning signs that a dog maybe is heading in that direction?

And what, what do you do if you do see, you know, signs of frustration and arousal kind of crop up in a session? We covered this so much in the class I just taught, which it's not back on the schedule. So this isn't a really good like plug for it or anything like that. But bomb-proof behaviors deals with this a lot because one of the biggest distractions for our dogs is arousal level, even though people aren't really aware of it. They might think it's the trial setting or something along those lines, but in reality, it's the dog's arousal level. Um, so the one, the biggest clues is if my dog's not responding to that marker the way he normally does. So if I say chase to creature and he jumps forward to grab the tug for my hand, which that's not what that marker means, right? So chase means I'm going to throw the toy. So he should be leaning back in anticipation, dancing his front feet. If I say chase and he lunges forward and thinks I'm saying mark instead, that tells me that he is over-aroused. That is not his typical reaction to that marker. And so therefore his arousal level is too high. I need to, or his frustration too high or whatever. Something is out of whack and we need to go back down a little bit. And so when that happens, what I can do is go back to that marker game, into a game he knows with a couple of markers that are really easy for him to understand and discriminate between, stay there until I'm finally seeing the responses that I typically see, and then, um, move back up the arousal scale with those markers. And then finally moving back into the behaviors after that. So it's really a lot of observation to how my dog normally reacts when I say markers and then, um, really taking that information to heart before moving forward. I love that. And you, you mentioned the bomb-proof behavior, uh, class, which isn't back in the schedule, but you do have a workshop coming up, um, on some of this stuff at the end of the month. Um, I know it's supposed to start September 29th. Uh, this comes out the 20th and registration opens the 22nd for it. So people can, um, hop on, you know, in two days when they, from when they're hopefully hearing this, uh, to go register. But can you share a little bit about kind of how the workshop ties into some of what we've been talking about, um, what you'll cover and maybe who might be a good fit? Yeah, absolutely. So the workshop is really geared towards creating a marker system and really kind of a systematic approach to adding new markers to your program. Um, it has a few marker games and what you can do with those and then how to build on those

and eventually take them into your training sessions themselves. So they're really, it's really designed for those people that are interested in adding multiple markers, expanding their multiple marker system that they have already, and just looking for new ways to communicate with their dog. Um, and we'll also be touching on adding duration using Zen hand or reverse learning, whatever you really want to call it, um, during that workshop as well. Awesome. Um, who, who should maybe take it or consider taking it? Um, yeah. Anybody who is thinking about adding markers to their system. So maybe if you have a new dog and you're like, oh, Hey, this sounds like a really good thing. A new concept for my dog to learn. So new puppy owners would be really great and new adoptive owners would be great. Or even if you have an older dog that you're happy with, but you just kind of want to experiment with the multiple markers. Yeah. Absolutely. Take the, the class then or the workshop then. So you mentioned you're talking about duration a little bit and we haven't really talked about that yet. How are you planning to approach that? Can you kind of explain what you mean by reverse learning Zen hand? Yeah. So we have, um, another communication tool that's, you know, keep going signal and that's what the Zen hand really is, is the keep going signal. And so we are going to use this to help our dogs learn calm, still duration behavior. So things like holds or, um, duration nose touches or even position changes. Um, it's just a way to tell your dog you're doing the right thing. Keep doing it. I'll eventually give you another cue or I'll reward you. Um, and I've really found it's, it's so helpful in keeping fidgety dogs from getting frustrated when we try to add duration. It's just a nice way to communicate to them. And the best part about it, it's seems to be super easy to fade too. So really there's no, no downside to it that I've really experienced. Hey, can't beat something with no downside, right? Um, no, right. Especially when it solves a problem like duration, which I feel like can often be something that people struggle with. I used to hate duration just because I have so many fidgety dogs. And as soon as I figured out the Zen hand thing, I'm like, this is the ticket. This is it. Uh, so I can't let you go with at least briefly touching on the other thing that you have kind of coming up on the schedule. So in October, I know you're teaching your foundation class, all the sports foundations for the cross training canine. Um, so I want to have you just tell me a little bit about that class and, um, you know, I'm

super excited because I'm hoping to take it with you. So. Yes. And I'm excited to have you there. Um, so this class really focuses on, we talk about multiple marker systems. We talk about, uh, um, session structure cues. So start cues and cues, that sort of thing to help with engagement, no matter where you go. Um, there's a lot in this class and I love it. Um, there's, we talk a lot about behaviors. So teaching your dog to pivot, rear foot targeting, that sort of thing that is so useful for pretty much any sport that you take. There's an application for those behaviors, regardless whether you're doing agility, obedience, um, you know, any, anything, um, that those behaviors are really applicable to everything. Um, it's for puppies. It's for adults. Anybody should take this class. Um, if you have a pretty good solid foundation with your dog already, there, there be things that you can pick up on, but it might not be, um, super beneficial. So meaning if you already have all those behaviors, um, the little bit of the engagement and the marker system and stuff might not be worth it, but it would definitely be great to follow along at bronze for sure for those. So new dogs, new puppies, for sure. Awesome. And, uh, I was going to ask you that, but you already, um, explained a little bit about your shape class. And I will say the syllabus is super detailed. So if folks are curious, they should go take a look. All right. So my, my last question here that I've taken to asking everyone when they come on, what is a lesson that you've learned or been reminded of recently when it comes to training? Um, we're all in this for the same reason. We all love dogs. And so I know it's really difficult for people to wonder why people train the way they do or to find flaws in the way people train. Um, but I think we tend to forget that we all are training dogs because we love our dogs. And that really is the root to it all. And even though we might not think that we have the connection with certain other trainers because of the way they train, the reality is, is we do. Um, we all love our dogs and I, and I've been reminded of this pretty recently. And I just, I wish everybody just remembered that. And so I, I'd like to share that as often as I can. We all love dogs. And if you're struggling finding a connection with somebody in dog sports or in dog training, just remember that and then just ask them about their dog and you'll see. Awesome. I like that. Thank you so much for coming back on the podcast, Sarah. Thank you so much for having me. And thanks to our listeners for tuning in.

We'll be back next week, this time with Loretta Lake-Mueller, to talk about the beginning skills for agility and living with multiple dogs. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Music Thank you.