E341: 재니스 건(Janice Gunn) - "오비디언스 링에서 교감 유지하기"

I see handlers like, you know, walking in a circle, trying to get their dog to sit or trying to sit properly. And then all these kinds of things just kind of bleed into an overall poor performance. Are there things kind of other than the finger follow method, which we'll dive in too much deeper just in a minute here, that you kind of do in the ring to kind of maintain that connection? So for myself, years ago, because I've been in this for so long, I didn't have a tool and I didn't really know what to do with my dog, you know, how to get them in the ring, how to get them set up, that kind of thing. So I wasn't really sure what to do. But now that I use the finger follow, I find that, you know, I use that, but also I've had probably about 15 different dogs over my career that I have, you know, brought up to the utility level. And I've found that with each dog, it's a little bit different. So there are some other things to maintain connection that I will do. And mainly just because of my years of experience with all different types of dogs. But what I find, like, I personally like to have physical interaction with my dog after an exercise. And just because I find that, you know, that's how it makes them happy. It makes me happy. You know, anytime you pet up your dog, that brings good endorphins. And I like to do that. But with, you know, with a lot of students and seminar participants, if they do that with their dogs, then they lose their dogs. So I don't like overly, you know, it's something that I can do because I can, you know, do a lot of tactile with my dog. And then I can quickly pick them up with the finger follow. And they know it, so they'll connect with it. And I'll get them to the next place. Now, the other thing that I'll do often when I set up my dog, they'll set my dog up with the finger follow. And then I will get a couple of hand touches on my dog. And I just find that I like to do that as well. Because once the finger follow is put my dog into position, you know, then you need to wait for the judge to come over and say, you know, this is going to be the, you know, command discrimination. And we're going to do sit down. And while they're talking, you know, you can easily lose your dog. So I might just put my hand out and get a couple of hand touches. And those are basically the main things that I will do. And it depends on my dog that day. It depends on your dog. Like if you want to do tricks, tricks, I find some of the tricks like spin and twist, those kinds of things can, some dogs, their stress level is just too high that they, you know, they won't even do the spins in the ring.

So I just find that the, if my dog, I'll do the physical interaction. And let's say the dog I'm competing with right now, seven, if he's getting a little bit flat in the ring, I feel like I need to get his energy up, then I'll really pet him up and interact with him. If I feel that he's a little bit over the top that day, then what I might do is just stick with the finger fall or, or even if he's really, you know, spunky and feeling really good, then I just might heal him to the next exercise. Because when I heal him to the next exercise, that, that's more control. I'm, you know, kind of have him under a bit more control. There's more pressure. So, you know, I kind of mix it. I tend to mix it up. It makes a lot of sense. So to kind of dive into the finger fall, now that we've kind of been talking about it a little bit here around the edges, what does it look like? What, you know, how does it work? So what it is, is it is a distinct hand position that how you're going to hold your hand and that your finger, and it's one finger that, that comes out like a pointer and the rest of your hand is like in a fist. So your fingers are curled. So this distinct position, as I call it finger follow, because it's one finger that's being held out. It's not hand follow. And so I'm real specific, you know, when I see the students, kind of their fingers start to all unravel and stuff. It's like, oh, you've got to use the one finger. So I'm very specific about it so that the dog is able to connect with it. And that, that's what it looks like. And how does it work? What it's able to do is it gives the dog a focal point so that your dog has a job to do, they have something to look at. It's not like, I don't often like to heal my dog from exercise to exercise just because there's a lot that goes with healing. You know, like it's precision. It needs to be, they need to do it a certain way. You know, it's more, it's more pressure for the dog. And I just want to use the finger follow so that it frees up my dog. But yet he still, he still has a job to do by holding and maintaining that connection with the finger follow. Where did kind of this idea come from? You know, how did it kind of turn into a thing, kind of the way that you use it today? So years ago, I never, in the beginning, I never really had any, any come in the ring cues for my dog or in between exercise. So there, you know, even though I had, my dogs were very well trained and I had good performances, but you know, there, there was a piece missing. And so I would watch, you know, seasoned trainers and I noticed that some of them had, you know, setup type cues.

And one was, I used to follow Patty Russo back in the day. I really loved Patty. And, and she, what she did was she would put her hand up on her shoulder and tap to her shoulder. And that would be her, you know, how she would set up her dog. I thought that was interesting. I played around with that for a little bit. I saw other handlers, what they would do would be to have their, their fingers pointing downwards and on their hip. And then they would, you know, tap on their hip for the dog to, to set up. So I played around with that for a while. And, but what I found, you know, with doing those two different things was, you know, they were set up cues for me for a while. But I wasn't finding that it was really giving the dog a job to do. They were more just, the dog wasn't really able to connect with it as well. Cause it was very close to my body and the way I didn't do anything. I could never played games with that there, you know, like with the finger follow, I've developed some games so that I can build a lot of value into the finger follow. And with these, you know, two different things, set up cues that I were, I was doing. Um, I just didn't find that it, it brought out any extra enjoyment, um, or a lot of extra connection from my dog. So let's dive into that just a little bit more kind of what advantages are you getting from the finger follow? Um, especially kind of compared to some of those other, you know, transition concepts that maybe are out there and that you just talked about. So the two that I'm for, you know, familiar with and play around with, I don't see a lot of other methods really that people are using. And what I do see, like I've literally watched, you know, hundreds, maybe even thousands of, of rounds over my many years. And, and I, unfortunately I see it over and over and over again. And the handler, um, they don't have, they don't have something that they're using. And so unfortunately when the dog comes in the ring, he, he falls apart. So he does become distracted. He sort of, he's confused to what he's supposed to be doing. The handler is working really hard, trying to maintain, to keep the dog with them. But he doesn't, he doesn't really know what he's supposed to be doing. I mean, other than, of course they know the exercises. So you've actually trained those exercises so that they know, but they don't know what they're supposed to be doing in between or for setting up. And that's where, that's where I find a huge disadvantage for many, many, many handlers. Um, because I see the dogs kind of get really down and they get depressed, um, because they

just don't really know, um, how to stay connected and the handler doesn't know how to get to that point. So then sort of like nagging comes in and, and the setups become difficult and, and stuff like that. So, um, so when I watched that, you know, I just, I really wanted to, like, I was using a finger follow for myself and people would notice it or they'd see it on a video and ask me about it. Um, so then I kind of thought, well, you know, maybe this is something that, um, I, I decided to use my finger because I could hold it away from my body. It, it's, it's healing, but it's not healing. Like when you see my dog seven do it, he looks really pretty, but there's also times when I, I can see in videos that I watch of him that he's much more relaxed when he's doing that. He's, he's connected, but he doesn't feel any pressure. Um, just, I can just tell by the way he's moving and, um, he's like, yeah, I don't need to do this precision healing. So he, uh, he takes it a little bit more in heart that it's something that he doesn't have to be perfect on. And so, but what I did was I wanted to move my hand away from the body. So not on the shoulder, not on the hip. It's like level with my hip, but it, it's about six inches or so away from my body. My finger is out like a pointer. And I do this so that my dog can see it easily and connect with it easily. And it's something that I'll use to, um, you know, bring them into the ring with and use it for setups and, um, exiting the ring. And I, I just find that there's so much more advantage to it because it has so many purposes. I can use it in many different places. Sort of an interesting concept to think about the fact that your dog can relax more because they have a visual focal point. That's a little bit different than like all the concentration it takes to heal really well, you know? And that's actually what you just said is, is really brilliant because you're right. It is. It's a visual focal point, right? When we can't do that, you know, like you can do that in between exercises, coming into the ring, exiting the ring, but you know, you could, otherwise you don't in your, in your healing or your other exercises, there are no visible focal points. So, um, you know, that, that is probably why seven feels like, or my other dogs feel much more relaxed because it is something that they can actually see. So obviously like anytime we talk about any method like this, right, what we hear back is like, that's great and all, but then once we add the pressure of the ring, my dog can't, right? Like they can't do that then they doesn't hold up, whatever.

Um, can you talk about maybe the process that you go through of building, um, a finger follow up so that the dog can do that even in the ring and it kind of have its intended purpose? Right. So what, what I do with this particular, um, method is I start off by, you know, teaching it, um, as something that's, you know, really fun. So the first thing that I, you know, when people say my can't, my dog can't do it. Or it's not working. Um, um, it's basically because I have many steps to the finger follow. So it's not just, I hold a treat in my hand and my dog looks at the cookie. So it's not like that. And if that's all you ever do with it, um, then yeah, then probably the dog will not find a lot of value in it. And they, chances are, um, it, when they get into especially a stressful situation that they won't do it. Um, so I put together, um, like the webinar is like over an hour long just on teaching the dog, you know, different ways that you can keep them engaged to want to do the finger follow. So, you know, I start off with getting them super interested in the hand, uh, that the, you know, finger is going, the finger fall is going to be in. I get them super interested in the hand. We, we do like food chase game. Um, and so I want to build just simply value for the hand. And then I start to move it and change it so that it's starting to show into the position that they're actually going to see it. We, you know, I keep it lower. We eventually, we start to raise the hand and then, um, I've also added in some games. So I will, um, you know, one, I call it, uh, like finger pickup. And, um, so it's teaching the dog how to, uh, I throw a treat and the dog leaves me and then I pick him up with my finger cue. So, and it, and it's a very specific way. Um, but what it also helps to create is a dog that wants to read when you're playing these games is a dog that wants to return to you quickly. So they're going to leave you, but then you're going to quickly pick them up and finger cue is going to be waiting for them. Um, and so these things are all different ways that we're, I'm building the value into wanting to do, um, to do this finger pickup and, or the finger follow. I also add in, I have a recall game, um, that I use with it. So anytime, um, you know, like if quite often we do motivational recalls and that's where we're not asking the dog to front and we want them to go, you know, through our legs or off to the side. And what I quite often see and why I developed this game, because I saw this over and over and over again.

So I give lots, you know, lots of seminars over my years and taught lots of students. And I continually saw the same thing is that they're, they would throw a treat and the dog would go get it. And then the dog was like, Oh, there's something over here. Oh, there's a good smell over there. Like they didn't have any urgency to want to get back to the handler. So, um, I developed this, um, the recall game where the dog wants to get back to the handler so that they can seek that finger cue. And then the handler will put the dog into the sit position. And so it has a lot of reinforcement history, like a ton of reinforcement history. So it's like a trick that we're doing for, for the dog. And I continue to play the games throughout the dog's lifetime and career. Um, and throughout this entire time, I'm also, I'm going to reinforce the finger pickup or the finger cue, like 90% of the time. And I do show, um, different ways that I will check my dog and make sure that I've built good muscle memory on this and that he knows what's expected. I will show how to fade, you know, fade it away, make sure that it's strong, make sure that you have it. But the reinforcement history for this stays with the dog. Um, and so it keeps it really, really strong. So I find if you take all these steps and you continue to play the game and you do all this kind of stuff and you follow through with it, then, you know, the dogs will, will do really well with it. Um, but another thing that is really important that I need to stress is that this isn't just something for the ring. I, this, um, the finger follow, I use it in training every single time. Like I use it to transport my dog up onto the floor. I use it to set my dog up for every single exercise. So it's, you know, I know there are some people that just like forget to do that. And then they go to the show and, um, the dog doesn't respond to it. So you've got to make sure that you put all the pieces together so that we don't have a dog that says, I can't do this. Mm-hmm. That makes a lot of sense. Now, I know you mentioned kind of earlier that, you know, you kind of decide when to use that and when to use other things the day of, um, while you're in the ring, kind of based on where your dog's at, kind of on an arousal level or, you know, kind of whether your dog's feeling a little flat or, can you talk a little bit about kind of that piece? Do you use the finger follow with all of your competition dogs? Can you talk a little bit about when you do use it, when you don't use it, if there's ever a given dog where you just be like, this dog shouldn't learn this?

Um, some of that. Yeah. So I, um, I use it with, uh, I probably been very strong on, on using it over the past, maybe four dogs of mine. So going, I guess, seven or eight years, um, I've been consistent with it and I want to, um, I want to use it for entering into the ring. So it's a, it's a wonderful tool to keep your dog going in to the ring gate, you know, through the ring gates, keeping there, keeping that focus going through the ring gates. And then I always use it going to my first setup point, uh, because that's where I want my dog to set up properly. So if you set up your dog and he's not connected and he's not sitting straight, those are all kinds of things that, you know, are going to lead to a poor performance. So it sets my dog up nicely. He knows where to be. And, um, then once that exercise is finished, that's when I make a decision with that dog I'm in the ring with that day, you know, am I going to, what am I going to do? Am I going to give him some tactile and rub him up? Or am I just going to pick him up with the finger cue and take him to the next exercise? Or is he really high today? And maybe I actually have to, you know, precision heal him to the next exercise. Um, so I'm going to use it for entering the ring. I'm going to use it for setup. I'm going to use it. Mostly I use it, um, pretty much every time I go to set up in between exercises, it's my transport cue. So once I release my dog, if I do decide to, to, you know, rub him up and pet him up and, and get him excited, then I'm immediately going to pick him up with my finger cue and I'm going to take him to the next exercise. So it's transporting my dog to the next exercise. And then the other place that I found it to be really useful for is, uh, when I'm at the, um, I finished my round and now I'm at the ring exit. And of course it's like the judge actually always says, you know, make sure that you leash your dog and that you leave under control. So this is really important. Like I guess dogs were, you know, we've got our special jackpot outside the ring. And dogs were literally just, you know, doing a nice performance and then just raising their handlers out the ring. So now all of this has to be under control. And my dog, he's, you know, he knows he's finished. Like the last exercise, he knows he's done and he's anticipating, um, you know, his jackpot back at his crate. So, you know, it's, uh, and he knows he's done. So what I'll do is then get him connected back up to the finger cue and use that to take him out of the ring. And that's where that, so it's got lots of different purposes.

Um, so I think that honestly, any dog, um, you know, can, can use it and it's very safe. Um, that's the one nice thing is there isn't any dog that I wouldn't use it with because it has, um, so much reinforcement history to it that it, it should actually bring the dog's mood up. It should make him feel good. Um, you know, because it's something that has always been a positive too. And so it should almost be like, oh, my best friend has come in the ring with me, you know, other than the handler, his finger, um, should also become the best friend. So I think it's really safe, um, to use. Also, I should mention that I use it, um, to, so when I'm at my crate and my turn is coming up, I will use it to get my dog from the crate to the ring entrance. Um, because, you know, once I leave the crate, I want my dog, uh, to know, and I'm going to be going into the ring next. And I want my dog to already put him into working mode back at the crate. So rather than sauntering up to the ring gate and letting him get distracted. And I've already done my acclimation. You know, we've done all that when we came into the building, when he goes in and out to potty, but now I'm, it's for real. It's showtime. We're going to go to the ring entrance. I want to already back at the crate, use the finger follow to get him engaged, focused. And it kind of sets him up that, oh, we're going to go to work. And, um, and it keeps him connected to me, um, right up to that point. All right. So part of the reason we're chit chatting today is that you've agreed kindly to do a webinar for us that digs deeper into all of this next week, or at least it'll be next week when this airs. Um, can you talk a bit more about what you're going to cover in the webinar and maybe who might want to join us for that? Yeah. So I would say anybody, um, that wants to have a good connection with their dog. If you don't have specific, um, cues for ring entry, for setup, for transporting in between exercises, um, all these things. If you need those skills, if you're finding that when, you know, you come into the ring and you're trying to set your dog up, um, they're just not with you. And in between exercises, it's a struggle or they just don't have a focal point. They don't really know what to do. Absolutely great information for you. Um, I'm going to, uh, walk you through on how to start it, how to add in some games with it, a couple of different games with it, um, how to master your setup so that when you do go to set up in the ring, your dog knows, um, where, like how to set up, because that is

a very common problem as I see that the dogs are sitting crooked, um, or they're just not able to pay attention. So these are the things that would help with that. I also, uh, do use it in situations where, um, let's say I'm going into a pet store or I'm going to, uh, in any public area where it's very distracting and the dog is going to get like aroused by all the stuff that's going on. Um, I can use it outside of the show environment. It comes in actually handy just for everyday life situations where there just might be too much going on for the dog. So this helps to, um, keep them a little bit more relaxed and not have to worry about everything else that's going on. And it gives you a better transport, uh, tool when going in and out of different places. Um, but one, one important thing is, um, that I want to say about it is that you need to use it in training and you need to use it, um, when you're in the ring. So it's not something that you do half time. I go, I'll just use it for one or two setups when I'm training, or I'm not going to use it today. Maybe I'll use it tomorrow. You know, that is not going to get you the picture that you want. Um, so consistency of training it and using it is going to be, um, really the key to success. Um, playing the games is going to be, um, a fun way to keep the value. Uh, so I do that for, again, the lifetime of the dog. I'll throw in the couple of games that I'm going to show you. And, um, that way it always, the finger cue is always going to hold its value. Excellent. All right. So any other maybe final thoughts or key points you just kind of want to leave listeners with? Um, yeah, I think, I think that, um, the biggest thing is keeping your dogs from being distracted, um, to, to start with. So not letting them get into that, um, into that situation, um, is, I think you're going to find that you'll have a bit of a different dog when they don't have the ability to want to look at the distractions because they're going to be instead watching the finger cue. Um, make sure that you, you know, you use it in matches as well. So we, we want to take it, you know, even to a match or take it to the shopping center, even before the dog show. Um, as with anything, all exercises that we train in, in obedience, we need to generalize them. So we want to take it on the road before we actually take it in the ring. So practice it in all different areas, make sure that it's strong because some areas we go to, um, are going to be, you know, if you're going to go into the tractor supply or, or the tech store, um, the level of distraction is going to be that much higher.

So, uh, we want to take it there. And the other thing that I wanted to mention that I find with a lot of dogs is it actually helps with their healing, their overall healing, because in, when you see it, it looks like it's healing, except for the fact that my hand is, you know, away from my body. The dog is looking at the finger, but the dog is actually healing. He's actually working. So, you know, if your healing isn't as good as you'd like it, you're actually probably going to get a little bit better healing, um, because the finger cue is almost like it is like a lure and a prompt. So the dog is going to be looking at it. And, um, so it just might enhance the healing for you as well. Awesome. A free extra bonus, right? Yeah. Anything we can get. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Thank you very much for, uh, inviting me and I'm really looking forward to the webinar. Um, I hope that, uh, everybody loves it. And, um, and I really hope that I, I already do, um, see people using the finger cue in the ring and, um, and they're starting to get success on it. So the more we can get out there, the better. Awesome. I couldn't agree more, Janice. Thank you. And thanks to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week. Don't miss it. If you haven't already subscribed to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Music. Music. Music. Music. Music. Music. Music. Music. Music. Music. Thank you.