E342: 카렌 디즈(Karen Deeds) - 행동에 문제가 생겼을 때

And he's still very busy, busy, busy, busy, even though he only has one eye. And so those are kind of our little easy dogs. And then we have our higher drivey, sporty, working dogs. And they're not doing a whole lot since we're not doing a lot of sports stuff. We're just trying to keep them sane and keep us sane, keeping them busy. And then we have two other dogs that were potentially working dogs that came to us. And one of them actually did pass his assessment as a FEMA USAR dog. And he was placed with a handler. And the handler couldn't handle his toy play. He's a Labrador. But he was a little possessive over his toy play. And there was a bite incident. So he came back. And his job now is to be companions for all of our boarders that come in or our youngsters that need a good adult supervision. And then we have another neutral dog that same thing. He's just, we think he might even be a wolf hybrid. Hell, I don't know what he is. But he's our favorite dog. His name is Ghost. And he has the biggest personality of any dog I've ever met. He's just, you never know what he's thinking. But he's the sweetest thing. But he acts kind of aloof and standoffish. And he's just an easy, he's wonderful. We love him. So those are our dogs that we're down to now. So I think it'll stay that way for a while. Fair enough. So I wanted to have you on today to talk about dogs with problematic behaviors. So even that term feels a little bit vague, right? It is. So can you talk a bit about what kind of behaviors we're including here? What do we mean when we use that term? Well, you know, what's a problem to one person may not be a problem to another. Because there are things that I'm going to tolerate that another pet dog owner may not tolerate. That's why we have eight dogs. Of those dogs that we have, I'm going to say one, two, three, four. Well, right now, four of the eight were probably dogs that would not have done well in somebody else's home. And it used to be higher than that. And that's why they're with us. It's because we are willing to either put up with or can manage or have done enough modification to make it work for us. You know, somebody can't put up with a counter surfer. I don't have kids. I can keep my counters clean. I don't have a problem with counter surfing dogs. Plus, I also have a lazy Labrador that probably is too lazy to jump on the counters. And then I have the little dogs that don't jump on the counters. And if the Border Collie and the Malinois are out and had an opportunity and there's something on the counters, absolutely they'd be counter surfing.

But I don't have stuff on the counter, so it's not a problem for me. And really and truly counter surfing or trash diving are typically not severe enough that would cause somebody to, you know, do something drastic with their dog. But when I talk about a major or serious behavior problem, I'm usually talking about behaviors that put the safety or sanity of the people or other animals or dogs at risk. So the major four that I tend to see that cause physical and or emotional harm are typically separation anxiety. I don't do separation anxiety. I find it to be one of the most emotional and personal behavior problems that dogs have that owners deal with. And I am thrilled to death that there are specialists that do separation anxiety training now because I don't want to do it. In fact, today, one of our colleagues that when we were back in Texas, she used to work for us. She adopted one of our project dogs and she has separation anxiety. And it reared its head after she attended Bob's seminar, his nose work seminar last weekend. And she's like, Karen, she says, this separation anxiety stuff is killing me. And she's working with a behavior vet and she's doing all the right stuff. And I, you know, so we chat a little bit, a little bit, but it's hard. So separation anxiety is really difficult, I think. And then dogs with excessive, extreme fear issues, dogs that are hiding under the beds 24-7, they won't go outside to potty, they won't eat in front of people. Those tend to be pretty extreme. Compulsive behaviors is another one that I find can be very frustrating, especially if the dog can't really function in its day-to-day life because it's doing stereotypy behaviors repetitively. You know, the dog sees a light reflection and it can't eat for days because it's looking for the light reflection. Those are problematic. And, of course, reactivity and aggression, that's what I deal with the most. But there's different types of reactivity or aggression. Of course, there's to people, whether it's in the home or outside of the home. Other dogs, whether it's in the home or outside of the home. Resource guarding, again, to people or to other dogs. I think I actually have somebody who signed up in my class that her dog resource guards against the cat. That'll be fun, right? Because let's train a cat while we're at it. So resource guarding is a biggie. And when it gets out of control, we'll talk about this a little bit more later, I think. But, you know, it can, when it mutates to things that are abnormal, it can get really dicey.

And, of course, some conflict aggression, which I like working with what I would call conflict aggression. And that's typically aggression towards the owner, per se. And it's normally handling issues like collar grabs, leashing, brushing, nail trims. Or let's say you try to grab their collar and prevent them from going outside or grab their collar or prevent them from getting on the sofa or pulling them off the sofa. Those are the dogs that you try to make them do something that they don't want to do or prevent them from doing something they want to do. And then, of course, there's frustration, which can oftentimes result in redirected aggression. So a lot of times this is fence fighting, barrier frustration, on leash. You know, if I can't chase the car, then I'm going to go after my sister who's on the other side of mom. And so those are some of my, those are my fun things. Those are the things I like to work on. But those are the biggies that I look at, that I work with. Yeah. So as somebody who kind of works with these dogs fairly often, when a new behavior case lands in your lap, where are you starting? What are the first couple steps? What are the options? You know? First thing I do is gather information. Lots of information. But even with that being said, I don't have one of these, you know, 13 page intake forms like a lot of my colleagues do. I normally, if I happen to answer the phone and we start talking on the phone, I'll start making notes. But then I normally ask the person to email me. So I do have it in writing. But simple things like, what's your dog's name? You know, sometimes when I ask the people their dog's name and they're like, he's just, and they start giving me adjectives. I know they're already at a frustration level. So I'm already assessing the people part of this. But typically, what's the dog's name? How old are they? How long have they had the dog? What kind of dog? How big is it? What are the family dynamics? This is a big deal too. You know, if it's just you and your dog, that might be a lot easier to deal with than you, the dog, three kids and a grandma. And where do you live? Are you in an apartment? If you have separation anxiety, you live in an apartment. That's going to be bad. That's not going to be fun. Or you have a sound reactive dog and you live in an apartment. That's not fun either. Are you in a suburb? Are you in the city? Or in the country? And then if the dog has aggression issues, what are the triggers? And do they have a bite history? Have they actually done damage to anybody or another dog?

And that's all information that I try to gather before I ever book an appointment. Sometimes it's just a case of simply educating them that, yeah, maybe your dog doesn't have to go to the dog park. Right? Your dog doesn't like to go to the cafe and be put under the table and have every little kid stick a pencil up their nose. Yeah, I had that case. A little girl stuck a pencil. Actually, I think it was the spoon or a straw. A mastiff's nose. And mastiff growled. And she says, what do I do? And I said, I don't know. Maybe don't take your dog to a place where there's going to be kids on the floor sticking straws up your dog's nose. I said, because really and truly, your dog was in the right. And she's like, really? I'm like, yes. And she says, I never thought of it that way. You know, so, you know, I just talked myself out of booking an appointment, which is fine. Yeah. But so sometimes just educating them that, you know, dogs do communicate with growls and snarls and lip curls. And sometimes that's not a bad thing. So sometimes there's that. And then, of course, if I decide that they do need extra help or in-person help, we'll set up consultation. And right now it's either a phone consultation or in-person. I do a lot of long-distance stuff. And sometimes I can do a lot of long-distance just, you know, watch a few videos, do a bunch of emails, that kind of stuff. But my in-person consultations, I like going to the client for a number of reasons. I get to see the client in their home. I get to see the setup. And I normally spend two to three hours there. It's a lot of time. I don't do a lot of training in that. It depends. But a lot of times I go in and I'm having to still set some ground rules, some management to get to the point that the dog stops practicing the bad behavior that we don't want. But on the phone, I normally spend an hour and a half to two hours for that initial consultation. And then after that, it's a matter of, okay, we're going to come up with a management, training, and behavior mod plan. And I can do repeat consults after that or follow-ups after that, either on phone or in person. But again, during that entire time, it's not just about the dog. There's a lot of cases I walk into and the dog would probably be barking at me for three hours if we didn't put him in the back room. And that's not conducive to any kind of conversation. But it's also a situation if that dog can't be managed and put into a back room and is barking for three hours. That's a clue that tells me that this is not going to be an easy problem to work through. And I never say I can fix your dog's problem.

I'll never forget one of my, Ken Ramirez was talking about, he says, you know, anytime we work with aggression, it's a reduction of severity and frequency. And I use those terms all the time. I said, I want to reduce the severity and the frequency of your problem. So I'll never say it's fixed. Although I have some clients that say, you fixed my dog. I'm like, well, that's great. But just like any kind of behavior problem or like marriage for that matter or your relationship with your dog, you have to keep working at it. It's not just, oh, wow, I'm done. And, you know, life goes on. No, you have to keep with it. So, again, it's not just about the dog. You know, that's why we have as many dogs as we have is because they do okay in our environment. But they wouldn't do well. One of eight dogs would probably do well in anybody's environment. And that's my Labrador. I mean, he'd walk away with anybody. It wouldn't matter. He'd stay home with anybody. He'd be fine. I hear that. I know, right? But not all labs are like that. My other lab that we have, the ex-FEMA dog, yeah, no, no, no, no. You can't be throwing a toy for him and try to play fetch with him unless you know what you're doing because you will get bit. Yeah. So there's a lot of variables regarding the people in the household as well as the environment that I have to assess during that consultation. And, in all honesty, that's why I developed my list of things to consider when working with cases like that. It's not only is the success of training and behavior mod contingent upon those variables, but the best option of what we do going forward is based on them as well. So at what point do you start to maybe get a sense for prognosis, right? At what point, you know, during the eval are you like, well, this dog probably are going to get really far. This product is probably going to do pretty well. Or this dog, like, we, you know, this is really going to be a rough case. Right. And the word prognosis is something I don't use. I think I leave that for the medical profession. But I can kind of go in and say, okay, I have a really good feeling about this. And sometimes, I don't know, maybe at this point in my life since I've been doing it so long, it might be a gut feeling. But there's, again, I have to look at all of those different variables. And sometimes I can do that on the first consultation because at this point I've got a family who's at their wit's end. They have tried everything they've done, especially if they've done everything what I would call right. They've already worked with a trainer who knows what they're doing.

You know, maybe I could go in and tweak a few little things. But all in all, they've been working for a year, year and a half, and things just have not improved to the point of safety. And that's when I go in and go, okay, I don't think I have more to offer. So we may have to look at another option. And sometimes we need time to try to make changes, sometimes just simple changes. Resource guarding, for example. My dog resource guards its bowl. I said, okay, cool. Feed it in a tray. Feed it in a slow bowl. The dog doesn't guard. We have one of those. One of our mouths. You put food in a bowl and he's going, rah, rah, rah, rah. You put it in a slow bowl or a snuffle mat and he's like, cool. You can take it. I don't care. He's more like my Labrador. So the context changed and the behavior changed. So sometimes it might be that simple. But I often give people a timeline. Now, let's say, let's give ourselves 30, 60, 90 days and let's, you know, apply this process and see how we do. And at some point in time, if you say it's getting worse, it's not getting better, or, oh, my God, I can't do this. It's too time consuming. I can't commit to it. Life has changed. We have to make another decision. I tend to give people a timeline to then say, okay, this option of training and behavior modification isn't working. What other option can we have or can we do? And really, there's only four options. There's management. I do a lot of management with a lot of cases. Like I said, manage it. Feed your dog that growls when you feed him, feed him in a crate. Sometimes it's that simple. Oh, I didn't know I should feed him in his crate. And I said, well, if it means your dog's not going to bite you when you feed him and you walk by and try to take his bowl, even if it's empty. And that's an easy solution. Management isn't for sissies. I mean, it is a very valid tool in my toolbox. So management may be all we can do. Then there's, of course, when I get heavily involved. What's management, training, behavior mod? Rehoming the dog. Maybe we just rehome the dog. And we find an environment and a family life that's a better fit for that dog. That's why we have eight. And then, of course, we have the worst, you know, result was we have to come to the decision of behavioral euthanasia. And it's a tough one, for sure. And I have way too many of those conversations. Way too many. And that's why I, what's it been, 2016? So how many years ago has that been? Eight years ago. I presented this, what I'm presenting, the webinar, In Who's Best Interest.

Because it's not just in who's best interest for the dog, but it's the family and the people in the community. What happens with that dog? And that's when I came up with this whole webinar concept. But it's tough. So I know you mentioned BE kind of at the end there. What types of cases or information might kind of lead you down that path? What types of, you know, situations, I guess, or, you know, kind of inspire that conversation? Or at least put it on the table, right? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Severity. You know, is the dog so fearful? And they've been hiding under the table or under a chair or especially let's say dad comes home and the dog is under the bed until he leaves the next morning. And that's been going on for three months, four months, five months. And it hasn't gotten better. And they've been doing all the things. That's when I walk in and go, yeah, you know. And, you know, maybe there are some things that we can try and then we do that and we give ourselves the 30, 60, 90 days. And then we still are at the same point and we go, okay, something else has to give. So that gets put on the table. Frequency of the problem. Let's say our dog is compulsive behavior. And maybe we resolve the problem with fly snapping, but now the dog chases its tail. Or now it chases the fan blades. Or now it chases a light reflection. And it just is like playing whack-a-mole. And same thing with resource guarding. Oh, great. You know, now I can take my dog's bowl away or I can take the chewy away or whatever. But now it's guarding the bed. And now it's guarding the sofa. And now it's guarding the husband. And now it's guarding the cat. And I had one that guarded a purse. And then I had one that guarded a piece of lint. And it just, I mean, we worked with resource guarding two years. And she says, I can't do this anymore. It was a spaniel. Sorry, it was a spaniel. And there had been a serious incident at this point. And we put that on the table. And obviously it's hard to consider. But there are worse things than death. And I know that sounds horrible. But living in fear or constant anxiety, so the dog's hiding or terrified of being alone. Or acting out so defensively that it's going to hurt somebody or another dog. That's not a good quality of life either. And then, of course, I do have to think about the owner's quality of life. And this is where the shelters and rescue people really need to take heed. I had a phone call before I came to do the podcast. Somebody from Texas had adopted a little dog and hid for two days. And then it now only likes two members of the household.

And there's five people in the household. And now the dog is barking and lunging. Thank goodness it's only a 20-pound dog. And I told her, I said, if this dog were 50 pounds, would you have called me? She says, no, I just would have taken it back. I said, okay. So that's one of my variables is size, right? Size matters. And, you know, it was one of those things. She says, I just don't know that I can live with this. Because she adopted two at the same time. One of them is wonderful. And then there's this one who is now aggressively going after the other one who is wonderful. And going after her kid, her son, and his friend who is now living with them. So it's gotten worse. Like she said, it's gotten worse instead of better. And I said, mm-hmm. And granted, I gave her some option of, you know, people she could talk to in her area. But we did talk about taking the dog back to the shelter. And, of course, she says, well, I just hate the thought that, you know, somebody else is going to end up with him. And maybe do something, you know, to him. Or he's going to have to be transferred to somebody else. He said, yes. But now at least we know that this is a limitation. And maybe he would do better as an only dog. And quiet household. Maybe he'd be a great dog for a little old lady. But what happens when that little old lady has her daughter or son come over to visit? And the dog is aggressive to that. I said, are you just passing on the problem? So she's like, oh, my God. You make so much sense. And I said, sadly. I try to. But now she's stuck with what do I do? So I'm guessing she's going to probably call one of the behavior people that I recommended. And she might set up a consult. And they might try something for a little while. Well, maybe it will get better or at least good enough that she can live with it. And that nobody's going to get hurt. Maybe it won't. Maybe she'll have to return the dog. Maybe she'll have to rehome the dog to somebody else. I don't know. But that's the conversation we have. Yeah. So I want to go a little deeper kind of on resource guarding in particular. I know you've got the class running this term on it. Yes. And I think a lot of people maybe struggle with knowing kind of what's acceptable levels of communication from their dog and what's actually problematic and what actually kind of crosses that line. The dog's actually guarding food and chews and other resources. So talk to me about that line. Where is it? And I think that line may be different for everybody. Like we have one of our Malinois. I mean, and he's been doing it since he was a baby, since he was a puppy.

You put his bowl in the crate and you're as he's eating. But I could probably open the door and pick up his bowl. He'd be fine. But even if he's in the room by himself, he's still doing that. And I'm like, dude. And this is the dog that Bob did bite sports with for a little while. He's got a lovely temperament. He's not the brightest bulb in the box. But he's a 90-pound Belgian Malinois. And he looks and sounds horribly ferocious. And he's not. So why is he grumbling? I don't know. I'd ask him, but he's not going to answer. So for me, I just go, yeah, he grumbles when he eats. And even if I'm not there, he's going to grumble. So I'll just let him grumble. Do I worry about fixing it? I don't. That to me was very, that's just who he is. Got it. No problem. My border collie mix when I got him, major resource garter. Lots of issues. Conflict, aggression, frustration, redirection. Jesus, you name it. I had it with him. And resource guarding. And now, I mean, I think if I fed him, and I feed in the crate because I just don't, that's just something I manage. I feed the dog. I leave him alone. It's, you know, I want to be left alone when I'm eating. I don't want somebody, even my husband, coming up and stealing a french fry. If I want him to have a french fry, I'll give him a french fry or whatever. But I think it's very normal for a dog, especially over food, to go, this is mine, and I want you to stay away from it. So, maybe it's the freeze. Maybe it's the lip curl. Maybe it's the, you know, the whale eye. The whale eye is typically one of the biggies. And to me, if the dog gives me that warning, and I heed that warning, and I back off, and the dog goes, oh, thanks. And they keep on. To me, that's perfectly normal communication. It's when the dog escalates, and sometimes we don't know why the dog will escalate. Will the dog actually take the resource? And I have seen dogs pick up a bowl and move it away and eat over there. Or they move the bowl with their nose and eat out of the side so that that's closest to the person approaching. That's resource guarding. Or they eat faster. Or they eat slower. All of those are just little teeny tiny signs of some guarding behavior. And so, to me, if that's as far as it goes, and it's something I can easily manage, I'm cool with that. But when it becomes a problem, especially for me, is if I were to put a food bowl down and, you know, let's say as I'm closing the crate door, for example, the dog comes at my hand. Now I've got that dog too. Now he's there for training. That's a little pasta. You will see him in my class a lot. He was in my little demo video.

And the only reason he's still alive, he has no owner. People keep asking me if he's mine. The answer still, I think, is no. I like the still, I think. I think is no. I adore him. He reminds me so much of Dempsey, my border collie. He's got a lot more fear issues than Dempsey does. But the cool thing about pasta is, number one, he's cute. And I love his name because I gave it to him. But the other thing is his bite inhibition is amazing. He's never even put a dent on me. He's put his teeth on me. Barely. So he's a level two. And I don't think it'll ever escalate. But it used to be, I used to have to throw his bowl to the back of the crate and close the crate door fast enough so that he wouldn't charge out at the crate to get me. I don't have to do that anymore. But I still feed him in his crate. So, I mean, we've made progress. But I, you know, that would probably not be acceptable to the general public. And rightly so. So I did work on that. Now, do I care that if I open the crate door and I reach in while he's eating and take the food bowl that he growls at me? I don't. I fed him. I gave him the bowl, for example. If I gave him something and he doesn't want me to take it, that's perfectly normal for me. There obviously are times when I give them something and it's like, okay, you've had enough of that, like a raw bone. I don't want you to eat the whole knuckle bone because, you know, you might get diarrhea or whatever. So I'm going to have to pull you away from that. Well, I have to train that. So that is definitely something that I would work through. You know, what is acceptable, what isn't goes back to your lifestyle. And in all honesty, with all of those situations that I described that I will tolerate, I'm not sure I would tolerate that with a dog if I had small children. So there goes back to the environment and the people in the family. Research guarding dogs with small children, that's a toughie. And then you have to look at my identification because that's one of my, that's one of my variables. Severity of the aggression. Pass is a level two of the Ian Dunbar scale. And I'm good with that. Yeah. Because it's just me and my husband. I honestly don't know if he guards against other dogs. Haven't put him in that situation. There's no point. There's no reason to. He'll play with toys with other dogs. So I don't, I think it's only going to be food objects that he would guard if he would guard there. But, because that's what he does with, and he would guard toys when I first got him. So toy play has become very instrumental in resource guarding training to me. I love that. Right. Yeah.

So I know you kind of mentioned a couple of things in there, and so I kind of want to pull them out. You mentioned kind of feeding in the crate, and you mentioned, you know, maybe trying some different situational setups. So talk to me just a little bit more about some of the options when it comes to management strategies. And sometimes, it sounds like, yes, sometimes that's enough. It just kind of depends on the case. Is that? It does. It does. And even during training, and that's probably one of the very first things we're going to do in class, is I have to get to know the dogs. And then we have to make sure that we can assess the dog's threshold safely. Crates, exercise pens, back ties or tethers, muzzles, baby gates, all of those things will probably be put to use when I manage as well as when I try to assess the threshold. So, you know, those are the things that I'm going to utilize the most. And muzzles are hard because, I mean, if the dog is trying to take something and run and it has a muzzle on, that's going to create frustration. Right? And a lot of times, you know, in fact, I think somebody contacted me privately and asked if, you know, they've gotten their dog to the point that they can approach an empty bowl, but if there's even one kibble in the bowl, they can't. And mainly because you can't work with just one kibble because by the time you have the threshold, the one kibble is already gone. Right? So I've used snuffle mats a lot to start the desensitization and counter conditioning process because the dog is different context. That helps. But it's also slowing down the dog so that it's not inhaling its food and it's giving you more times to approach, you know, condition, leave, approach, condition, leave, approach, condition, leave, approach, condition, leave, approach, just simple classical counter conditioning. And I start with typically desensitization and counter conditioning. That's really the hallmark of working with resource guarding cases. However, I, that's what I start out with is simple desensitization, counter conditioning, but I also teach a classically conditioned drop. I just have never found trading a very great way to work through resource guarding. Now, dogs that steal stuff for fun or for attention or preventing dogs from becoming garters, trading might be fine. I just find it builds in a lot of conflict. And then, of course, there's, we don't want to trick the dog. You know, I'm going to throw your toy over there and then I'm going to steal this toy. Well, you can do that once or twice, but after a little while, the dog's going to go, eh, eh, eh.

And so that's a game I play a lot. In fact, one of the videos I have, I think in my, my little demo thing was, you know, I'm giving pasta a little rawhide, he's chewing on it. And then I give him another one and I pick up the first one that he dropped. And then, so I'm, I'm taking it, but I'm giving it and I'm taking it and I'm giving it back. And I'm taking it and I'm giving it back. And I'm taking, he's like, oh, wow, you can take it. And you're going to give it back. Maybe you're not such a, you know, an ogre after all. A thief. Exactly. You're not setting me up to fail. So I do that. And then I also teach a remote positive interrupter. It's basically remote reinforcement. I say cookies and we all run to a specific point and get a cookie. And if that's taught well enough, it's going to interrupt. And this is really good for dog to dog stuff. Because if you, and learning body language is key, especially when, if you have dog to dog resource guarding, because you're going to get that little look, right? You're going to get that, hey, I'm thinking about telling you to back off. And that's when most people go, ah, ah, ah, don't do that. And of course, the fight erupts because you yelled, they yelled back. So instead I go, cookies. And we run to the kitchen and we all get a cookie from the cookie jar. And dogs. And that has to be trained really well. Has to be very predictable. That look has to be there. And especially if I'm working two dogs, I want at least, you know, three o'clock and six o'clock. I want them opposite sides or at least four hours separating themselves so that they're not side by side. I might get to that point, but I never start that point. And I might even have to teach this concept with a barrier in between a coffee table, a baby gate, an exercise pen, the crate, whatever is going to keep them safe to teach them that, you know, you're always on my left. You're always on my right. This is where we get our cookie. This is where you get your cookie. Dog A, dog B. Dog A, dog B. Dog A, dog B. Dog A, dog B. And that becomes predictable. So when I say cookies, they run to their sides and they get their cookie and they go, oh, this is so, I know exactly what we do in this situation. Same thing with sleeping on the sofa. This is your spot. There's that spot, you know, but that itself can create a problem, right? Oh, well, this is my spot. I don't want my dog walking by my spot. That's whack-a-mole. That is where, okay, we fixed one problem, but we've created another. Dog to dog resource guarding is not fun. And sometimes is it resource guarding or is it just, I don't want you close to me?

Is it, I don't feel safe if I feel threatened? Is it just a label? I don't know. Could be. Yeah. So you mentioned in there counter conditioning and desensitization. Is that kind of the next step after management? Is that usually where we go once you've kind of got that management in place? Yes. Yeah. I mean, I kind of do a little bit of everything. I want to start teaching the drop without, you know, I want to condition the word drop or spit. That's one of my favorites too is spit. One of my clients was already using drop for her toy and, you know, I'm really big on clarity. Thank you, multiple marker cues. And so I teach that. I want, when I say spit, I'm only going to use spit or drop or whatever the cue is. I'm only going to use that for a resource that they're going to get something higher value. And there's a lot of things that will never be higher value than a stolen sock. There's not. Anything that our dog steals, there's nothing higher value. So if we condition a word that means eat food and the dog hears that, they don't even think about, I must eat food. So they take whatever in their mouth and they spit it. And then they go to you because it meant we're going to get a cookie at the counter. So, you know, or we're going to come to you and we spit out whatever we've got. Then we have to work on picking it up. Or maybe, and I've got some people that we use a remote positive interrupter. It's who wants to go outside? And they all go, oh God, I do. And they drop whatever conflict they were having and they all go to the door and we all go outside and we're done. So that's a remote positive interrupter there. Yeah. So it just depends on the dogs. It depends on the situation. Totally. Yes. And that's why class is going to be, whew. Lots of variables. My God. And every working spot is going to be different, I'm sure. And it's going to be more of a handler's choice, which is what behavior classes are. Yeah. Right? I mean, if I were teaching just a concept, you know, like my confidence class, that was more concept stuff. I wasn't there really doing behavior mod. This class is a behavior mod class. My reactive integration class was a behavior modification class. And granted, they still have to have some foundation. But once we have some of these tools in place, it's going to be, okay, well, you need this tool in this situation and you need that tool in that situation. But first and foremost is management. We want to try to identify the triggers or at what distance with what object does the dog guard. And then I like to create an hierarchy. What is your dog's most valuable thing?

Normally, it is whatever they steal. I don't care what it is. Underwear's big. Shoes, socks, whatever. Normally, it's a personal object. Dish towels tend to be very, very popular. Yes. They steal them off the counter. And I have to admit, golden retrievers are high on my list for resource guarders. Number one dog I work with for resource guarding is probably a golden. Blood hounds are typically pretty gnarly, too. If they have resource guarding, they'll do more damage. But I have worked with a golden who've sent their owners to the ER three times before we euthanized him. Yeah. And one of the variables, they had already tried training. Training that I wouldn't recommend. And it got worse instead of better. And so when I got there, we already had so much mistrust. And we couldn't manage the situation. And there ended up being a kid becoming involved again, which wasn't a factor when we first started working together. But then the kid moved home from college and he became a victim. ER visit. And so we had to pull the plug. Which, I mean, it just is not fair. But I look at a dog like that and go, wow, you're not very comfortable in your skin. It must be hell living like that. It's not fun for you. And so when we can do things to ease a dog's suffering, I don't think that just has to be about physical suffering. Case in point. And I'm probably going to cry. Last week. Last Thursday. 18-month-old chocolate Labrador. I held him in my arms. He was severe separation anxiety. He did not have an owner. He was 75 pounds of way over aroused. He was already on 60 milligrams of fluoxetine and clonidine three times a day. He had an underbite. He was drooling constantly, excessively. Severe separation anxiety, over arousal. So every time I worked with him, it was like 50 first dates. And he was disgusting. He was drooling on himself. He had an underbite. We had ruled out gut issues. The rescue group had spent, I don't know, thousands on this dog. And the rescue group was, the owner was actually going through chemo. And I said, I just don't see how this dog is ever going to be adoptable. And I said, and I can't send him back to you like he is. I think we need to make another decision. And so I'm picking up his ashes today. And he'll go home with me. And he'll stay with me forever. Because I felt this dog was suffering emotionally. He was not a happy dog. There was nothing happy about him. He was ridden with anxiety. He was eating eight cups of food a day. And I was still having problems and training food. And it was just, it wasn't fair. It wasn't fair to him. It wasn't fair to me. It wasn't fair to the rescue group.

And it certainly wasn't fair for me to try to look for an adopter and say, okay, here's this really great dog that's not. And you're going to have to mop up after him every day. Four times a day. I cleaned his crate an inch thick of saliva. It was just gross. Anyway. So yeah, it stinks. But sometimes I look at the dog and he had no home. He had no owner that was dedicated to him. And there's a reason for that. I know why. It was hard to dedicate to that. Versus Pasta, the dog that wants to bite me. I'll dedicate to that. He's cute. He's fun. He's bittable. And I don't think he's a nervous wreck. He's fat, dumb and happy 90% of the time, unless he's guarding or unless there's a geese flying over or a car. So most of the time. Most of the time. Quality of life is usually pretty good. Yeah. And it is. And he's fun. And I really think he could probably do some sort of a sport. He's just not even a year yet. But anyway. So I just looked at him and went, okay, Trav, it's time, buddy. So, yeah. So you did mention in there a little bit about kind of keeping the people safe, right? So as part of the management. So just talk to us a little more about how, you know, working on all of this, how do you avoid getting bit? How do you avoid kind of this emergency room visit piece of things, right? And if you have that dog that you don't know what his triggers are, you're probably going to get bit. And that's one of those variables is, is it a bite that the dog gives you a lovely little warning? He puts his teeth on you and you feel some spit? Or does he send you to the ER? Most people, if their dog is sending them to the ER, they're pretty much not ready to work through the problem. That's not everybody. That's, I mean, that's John Q. Public. And I get that. And if I have that, we're probably going to be doing a lot of protected contact a lot. If we can identify the specific resource that triggers it, obviously that's gone for a long time. And if we can try to create a hierarchy, you know, what can your dog have that they don't guard? Let's start there. And then let's do some training with approaching and counter conditioning and get him so that he's not already guarding, but he sees the picture of, oh, wow, I'm eating food out of my snuffle mat. The lady walks up, she drops cheese, she walks away. Oh, I'm eating snuffle mat. Lady walks up, drops cheese, walks away. Eating out of my snuffle mat. Lady walks up. I lift my head and go, hey, lady, got some cheese? Drop cheese, walk away. That's when I know I'm seeing a difference. The dog is now giving me a behavior that I can actually,

I don't have to condition that. I can now actually train that. So that's where I would try to start. If I don't have that, I'm dealing with probably a lot of tie outs, a lot of tethers. Resource guarding with a muzzle is tough because the dog can't access the resource, right? So then we create more frustration. So we do back ties, we do double X pins, which all can have a lot of fallout themselves because now the dog is restrained. Now it's frustrated. Now it can't communicate well. You know, we all know barrier frustration. I mean, if you watch my, when you watch my, when you watch my webinar, one of my favorite videos is in there. It's of the dog's fence fighting. And as the gate opens, they stop because the fence isn't there anymore. It's just the stupidest thing, right? You go, dude. So you have to take in that into account, you know, like I said, my mouth, the Malinois while he's eating, but I opened the crate during goes, Hey, hi, Karen. He's fine. So is that a barrier frustration? Probably. Maybe. I don't know. I really, I really don't care because it's an easy manager, but he's 10, 11 years old. He's fine. He's not hurting anybody. Um, but, uh, you know, if I have dogs that are putting you sending people to the ER, there are a lot of those people that will never get to the point of behavior mod. If they can't safely manage things and, um, then it, it might be a situation where we don't even try. I'll be happy to, but again, I have to look at, okay, you have an open floor plan. You have no threshold. You'd have no doorways. We can't put baby gates here, uh, open floor plan. And we're going to have to use exercise pins. And Oh, wait a minute. That dog can jump a six foot exercise pen or a four foot exercise pen. I think that's the highest and come after you. That's going to be hard to, to contain, right? I bolts in the, in the, uh, um, uh, the baseboard. Is that something you're willing to do? And maybe it may be what we have to do. And of course, then, you know, if that's a situation, if I've got that kind of severity, I'm probably going to suggest behavior vet ASAP period. Give me a chance, man. I mean, I, I got to change something, but I can't change something environmentally. Uh, and with the people and the dog, I'm going to have to try to change it, the dog and I might have to use drugs. And that's hard to find. That's again, that's one of my variables is, is there a behavior vet that in your area that you can see within something less than six months? That's going to help you. And the answer is oftentimes no.

Yeah. All right. So we've covered a whole lot of ground here. Um, I know you're doing the, uh, webinar. So when this comes out, the webinar will have happened yesterday, but it'll still be up for sale. Um, and you've got the class, um, and they both kind of tie into what we've been talking about. So can you give people kind of a quick synopsis of what each is and maybe who might want to join for each? Sure. Sure. So in whose best interest, the webinar, shelter, shelter staff, rescue groups, veterinarians who have to work with clients who have dogs that bite them or that have severe separation anxiety or who terrified or are compulsive, uh, trainers, behavior consultants, dog owners. I honestly think the concept of options and behavior euthanasia is something everybody needs to be educated about. And I, I am very happy to know that there is less stigma associated with it. When I first wrote this and the very first couple of times I recommended to a rescue group to euthanize a dog that had a bite history, uh, my nickname became Killer Karen. Killer Karen. That's who I was. And, um, it hurt, but I felt that it was what was best for the community, for the dog and for any potential adopters, obviously. Um, and so I think the shelters and rescue groups really need to know that, but I'm also very thankful that it, there's not the stigma, but I also worry that, how do I say this? That maybe we're not trying hard enough on some dogs, that it's an easy out. I don't want it to be that either. I don't want behavior euthanasia to go, well, I don't want to do it. So I'm just going to put him to sleep. I really think I want to try something first before I make that decision. Um, I was in Korea in December and I was at a dog bite prevention symposium. And one of the other presenters there was from Germany. And she says, we don't do behavior euthanasia there. We don't allow it. They also have certified certifications for everybody who trains a dog. You have to have some sort of certification that goes through the veterinary profession. Now granted there's good and there's bad, but at least you have to show some sort of proof that you know what the heck you're doing. Um, and, um, she says, so we require that they, if a dog is brought in for behavior euthanasia, that the owner has to prove that they are at risk, there's livelihood at risk in the household, other people or other pets, and that they have tried working through the problem and that they can no longer manage it anymore. She says, we barely do any behavior euthanasias. She was a veterinarian and it made me stop and think that, okay, yes,

we support behavior euthanasia when it's necessary, but is it too easy? So it's a fine line. Uh, we have to, we have to go, okay, is it too easy? And there's some wonderful support groups out there. Losing Lulu, I am going to, I'm going to mention it. It is an amazing Facebook support group out there for people who have been through behavior euthanasia. Obviously I'm on it. Everybody that I have worked with who have gone that route, I recommend they be on it. If nothing else, it's nice to know you're not alone. Um, and you grieve. Oh my God, do you grieve? Uh, that you feel guilty. Then you feel guilty because you feel relief. It's hard. Um, and I never wanted to get calloused about it. Um, no, I'm going to cry. Um, and I think sometimes, gosh, of the dogs that I've, I've been there for, did I do enough? Most of the dogs, I think I have over 30 boxes of ashes. A lot of them, probably 40. A lot of them were not, were dogs that did not have an owner and I was their last hope. And did I fail them? That's something I, that sometimes keep, keeps me awake at night. And I think it's good that you have that emotion that it's not an easy out and that I do have empathy and sympathy for the situation and that I can grieve and that I still am grieving. I never go, oh, thank God he's gone. I mean, I, you know, I, I, I'll quit the day I do that. The day I go, thank God that dog is gone. He was such a pain in the butt. That's when I need to hang up my, my credentials. I just, it's, that's not right. So anyway, um, so for the webinar, I think everybody needs to, to think about it, uh, or to, to watch it because even if you don't have to go through that, you probably will know somebody at some point in time who is going to have to make a tough decision. And you need to probably know what it took for them to get to that decision. So in whose best interest, I think, um, is amazing for shelters, uh, rescue groups, dog owners in general, veterinarians, especially trainers, behavior consultants. Um, I have given my list out my variables to many, many, many, many colleagues over the years, and it has helped them to counsel one of their clients when they're having to make a decision. And, um, it's just, it's just something you can go, okay, well, I've thought about this or I've never thought about that. Oh my God. I had no idea that maybe because I live in Texas and we have all these thunderstorms and my dog is thunder phobic, that that is contributing to my dog's generalized anxiety and his aggression. Yeah. So area of the

country is actually one of the variables that I analyze. Um, so that's a good one for everybody. The class itself, resource guarding. Oh my God. I have to admit, I'm, I'm scared to death, uh, of what I'm going to have in my class. Jesus. Um, because it's going to, it's, it's going to be very customized. It has to be. But so if you have a dog, uh, that has resource guarding, absolutely. I think it's sold out now. Uh, the gold is sold out. So yay. Uh, but, um, if you have a dog that, you know, you worry that might become a resource guard or is already a resource guard, obviously it's a good one for you. If you have a multiple dog household, I think it's, there's a lot of really good information that will help you maintain sanity in a multi-dog household. Or if you're adding a puppy, somebody emailed me, Oh my God, I just added a puppy. And you know, I'm resource. My dog is resource guarding against the puppy. And I'm like, yeah, you had the puppy three weeks. Most adult dogs don't want new puppies. So maybe this isn't just resource guarding. Maybe this is just, you know, they just don't like each other well enough yet. And it will just take time. But some of the things that I'll teach in that will certainly help that process. Um, and of course, if you're a trainer and you work with people that have resource guarding, I think there's some things in there that you might see. Uh, and of course, if you're in, uh, um, if you have a bronze or a silver or gold, whatever the Facebook group, I have a feeling it's going to be pretty active. I hope so. I don't have a TA, um, because I'm a newbie. So I'll be doing all of that and it keeps me busy. So I'm looking forward to that. So I think there's a, the resource guarding class when Terry asked me if I would, would teach it, she says, you know, we've never had anybody teach a class. And he went, well, okay. Challenge accepted. Yeah. Fair enough. Um, any maybe final thoughts or key points you just kind of want to leave folks with? Uh, you know, behavior is not training, but what I love so much about FENZ, um, is that when I first started working with kind of, I went, I think the first time I saw Denise FENZ, Jesus, I want to say 2014, 2012. Heck, I don't remember long time. I think it was 2012. I'd have to go back and look. It was white, little golden. And she was dog reactive. And I went to a seminar and, uh, she called her a Ferrari. She says, you're a Ferrari. I said, she's got a, she's a little Ferrari. And I went, God, I needed a Chevy or a Ford. And, um, because she's, she was

pretty hot. I was not, I mean, I, you know, I mean, I spent more time walking with Denise than I did training my damn dog. Um, but what I loved about all of that is we addressed emotions in training skills, especially for the ring as much as we did the skills, because obviously the, the better the emotion, the better the skill. A lot of times I don't care about skill because I'm working with behavior. Um, I'm actually quite interested. There's some things I want to try that, uh, Alex, uh, Lato presented. And I think there's some things I want to do with that. So I hate to say this, but there might be some guinea pig going on, guinea pigging going on in my class as well. Um, but I could see some really cool stuff happening, uh, using some of that, that process. But, uh, he did some really cool stuff. Um, they're, they're not great for every resource guarding issue, but I think there's definitely some that it would apply. I like it. And I, and I do use negative reinforcement, you know, obviously, um, it's not my first choice, but sometimes we have to use some negative reinforcement. Uh, but again, I just love that FDSA is, uh, not just, well, make them do it. You know, you know, uh, they have to be precise. Well, we want them to be happy and precise. And that is one of the things that I love so much about FDSA, uh, and all the instructors here is we want, uh, the good emotions to go with the good training. And I'm very happy to be here. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming, uh, on the podcast, Karen. This has been fabulous. Thank you, Melissa. It was great to be here. Awesome. All right. And thanks to all our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week. Don't miss it. If you haven't already subscribed to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the FENZY Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise FENZY for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track features here is called body audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training.