에피소드 17: 사라 브루스키 인터뷰 - "디스크 독 훈련"

One of those is actually a permanent foster through the Malinois Ranch Rescue in Tennessee. And I have a Boston Terrier mix, a Papillon, and a Labrador. Wow. Some of those I actually hadn't seen pictures of before. So it's definitely a household, huh? It's a full household. They're all very, very active dogs. Other than, you know, the elderly foster. She's a little bit slow these days. How did you get started with all of this? Obviously, where you are today is, you know, probably took a little while to get there. But how did you first get started in dog sports? I was actually 11 years old when I begged my parents to let me buy my very first sport dog. I wanted a border collie. And I was going to compete in agility. And that was because I watched the Prina Incredible Dog Challenge on TV. So I saved up all my money and I found a border collie in the newspaper, which is the worst place to get a dog. And we went out and I bought my border collie. And so then I did my backyard training. We had stick in the ground, weave poles, jumps made out of PVC. My tunnel was actually a construction drainage pipe that my dad found and gave me. And that's how I trained all my agility. And I started competing as a junior handler. And then he actually got injured. And so I had to stop training him in sports. And that's when I figured out about trick training. When he was about seven years old, he knew over 50 different tricks. Wow. It's like high five and wave and spin. Other ones were throwing away my empty soda cans and turning off the light because by then I was a lazy teenager. That's awesome. So, I mean, I think that just goes to prove that anybody like people don't have an excuse. If you could do it in your backyard with sticks and a PVC pipe. Exactly. And I think my parents always were hoping that I would outgrow this and, you know, go to school, maybe be a veterinarian. And no, here I am with 14 dogs and training is my career. So agility is generally thought of as pretty positive. Same with trick dog training. Have you always been a positive trainer? I actually wasn't. I was kind of what you consider a balance trainer back then. All my agility training and trick training, that was all done with clickers. So I had read up some clickers and learned how to do that. I'm kind of a self-study. But, you know, my parents were very much punishment based and dogs should be dogs and they should behave as dogs. And so that's kind of the background I have with that. I didn't have any formal dog training. So it's a mishmash of every method that you can imagine. And I actually was that way until I had a great Dane.

And he was not the most balanced mentally dog. He was a little bit human or active. And he was a big dog. And everybody told me I had to show him who was boss and everything else. And I will for roll him and come to Jesus moments and all that. Well, the dog outweighed me and it wasn't working. So that was when I switched and I became a positive only trainer. And that helped him tremendously. And I know that now you've done like the Karen Pryor Academy stuff and everything else. Is that really, I mean, that sounds like that was kind of your pivot moment there. But then it sounds like you went kind of that next step with it, right? Absolutely. So, you know, when I had that great Dane, I was actually on the path to becoming a professional dog trainer. I was looking for ways to enhance my education. I was looking for places to teach group classes. And that's where the Karen Pryor Academy came into, into places of formal education that I could put on my resume and show people that, you know, I was serious about becoming a dog trainer. So I think most dog trainers, at least professional dog trainers, would say that their dogs are both their life and their work, right? But because of the nature of what you do at Purina, it seems like it kind of takes it to a whole other level. Do you want to just talk for a few minutes kind of about what you do at Purina and what that's like? Sure. So my job at Purina is to promote pet ownership. And, you know, Purina really believes that your life is really enhanced by owning a pet. And so my job at Purina, at Purina Farms is to talk with the public, promote pet ownership by putting on shows every single day. So my shows are three times a day, six days a week. And I bring my dogs with me to work. And we show them what you can do with rescue dogs that you can do with your dog at home. And which is why I really like to have a variety of dogs. And so my goal at Purina is to hear the audience go, we should go home and train Sparky to do that. That's my favorite thing ever to hear. That means they're going to go home and play with their dog. And that's huge to me. And so because we do so many shows a day, I actually bring between 11 and 13 dogs with me every single day to work. And that means that my dogs are with me from the time I wake up. I feed them, we get ready. We all go to work. I work with them all day long. I come home, I unload them, I feed them, and they're with me all evening. So my dogs are literally with me 24-7. When do you find time to train if you're working with them so much? To train? Well, that's my job at Purina is to train them.

So between the shows, that's the time that I have to train my dogs and work them and make sure that they're getting what they get. Wow. It's a very full day. It's a very, very full day, yes. Obviously, like relying on your dogs for your livelihood, I mean, I'm sure that's had a lot of impact. And like you said, you're with them 24-7 on the actual relationship that you have with them. Do you want to just talk for a minute kind of about how you think that's impacted things for you? Sure. You know, it's really, you hear a lot of the time people in my line of profession look at their dogs like they're just, they're just part of their paycheck. They have to do their job. They're tools of the trade. And that's very much not how I view them. The reason why I have so many dogs is because I don't want my dogs to be burnt out. I don't want my dogs to hate their job. I want my dogs to have fun and just as much fun as I have working with them. And so you can't do this job and have that many shows to perform in and only have six dogs. It just, you'll end up ruining your relationship with your dog. You'll end up hurting your dog. And really their well-being in the long run is my most important part. So that's what I care about the most. And that's why I have so many dogs. But I mean, it is what it is. I mean, there's my dogs that pour their heart out for me every single day. And I appreciate that so much. But they also really love what we're doing. So, you know, I have dogs that love Frisbee. I have dogs that love dog diving. I have dogs that love working with me. And that's a big part of it as well. How many of the, I know you mentioned, do you typically bring, you know, up to 13 of the dogs with you each day? How many tend to compete in any given show? So we run five to six dog shows. And I rotate through those. So I don't like my dogs to do more than three shows a day. And I actually rotate days. So for instance, yesterday it was Zipi, Nelly, and Taboo, and Zuma's day to work. And so I rotated through those dogs for the show. The other trainer covered the rest of the dogs in the shows. And then tomorrow, since today was my day off, I'll have four different dogs I put in the shows on. And it's so interesting, just kind of juggling all of it and managing the schedules. Yeah. Yeah. We count a lot of shows. We tally up and make sure everybody's not working too much all the time. And it's helpful having other trainers there because, you know, we each pull equal weight on any given day. So I want to switch gears for a minute and talk a little bit more specifically about disc. I know that's kind of what you teach at FDSA.

I think kind of like you're talking about having watched agility on TV. I think a lot of people have seen some of the cool tricks that disc dogs can do. And I think that some people probably look at it and go, my dog couldn't do that. So I was curious what skills a dog actually needs to be able to learn some of those disc tricks. Sure. So free file is what you always see on TV and like an incredible dog challenge. And really, in reality, that's just a tiny little aspect of the Frisbee dog community and the competition. It's actually not even the most competitive, you could argue. There's a ton of different games that you can play with your dog in each competition and each venue. So just like there's AKC Agility, NADAC Agility, and USDAA, and they all have different rules and different games, the same thing applies to disc dogs. So your traditional Frisbee dog competition will have a freestyle and a toss and catch competition. And a toss and catch competition is just like it sounds. It's a game of fetch, a timed game of fetch, where you get extra points for distance and accuracy. So you want to throw in a certain zone and how many throws you can get off in the minute or the 90 seconds that you have. And so really, to compete in toss and catch at the novice level, all you have to do is have a dog that loves to play fetch. I mean, whose dog doesn't really like to go out there in the backyard and catch a Frisbee, right? Right. So that's pretty applicable to any dog. Well, then you also have your handler who has to have to be able to throw. So luckily, in like the novice competition, you just have to throw 20 yards, which isn't very far. Then there's other venues, such as Up Dog, which is a newer venue. It's just come around the last three years or so. And they've really catered to new disc players. They include something that's called a roller, which is where you throw the disc on its edge on the ground and it rolls. And the dog just has to grab that. So you don't even have to throw a Frisbee to compete in Up Dog. And they have a whole bunch of different strategy games, all kind of catering to each dog's individual strength and each handler's individual strength. And so that's kind of cool. They're really starting to incorporate. Anybody can really play Frisbee with their dog, which is very interesting. Mm-hmm. So in your classes at the Academy, what are some of the common moves or tricks that you wind up teaching? So all the tricks that we end up teaching in the Academy classes, the tricks themselves are for freestyle.

There are some that apply to the other games, such as the flat work and stuff like that. And that's just moving your dog around the field and connecting with your dog. Um, that's where I really like to lay my emphasis with my classes. Um, it comes from my agility roots. It's a lot like handling and agility. Um, but the tricks themselves for freestyle, we teach a whole bunch of different things. We do, uh, dog catches, um, which is where you just literally catch your dog with or without a disc. We do, uh, rebound, which is where the dog, it's kind of like a fly ball box turn, but on your body. So the dog hits you and jumps off. And then, um, leg weaves, which is really good for any sport because it's a nice warm up. And then, um, we also will teach things like stalls where the dog actually jumps up onto a part of your body and hangs out there for a while. That's kind of neat. Yeah. It's very exciting. So somebody's trying to decide if they should take the class or not. Are there any skills that they need or their dog needs to start to do some of those tricks? Um, we teach all those tricks actually with food first. So if your dog has food drive, then you're pretty much golden for it. Um, and you can actually even just end up taking the class and just teaching those tricks for food and not ever touching the Frisbee if you don't want to. Um, but ideally if you want the actual full Frisbee aspect of the class, then your dog should be, should have some sort of toy drive or disc drive. Um, because I don't hit on that a whole lot with the classes. There are plenty of other Fensi classes that build on toy drive. And I want to make sure our mind focuses just on the Frisbee aspect of it. If somebody was just interested in getting started, kind of what's that first step? Where should they start out? Right? Yeah. So the first step, which is what I always recommend to anybody looking in any sport is find a local club, find some local help that can give you hands-on help. Because that hands-on help is going to be priceless. Um, hopefully there's somebody there that's actively competing and who's gone to the world's level to help you out. Um, that's, that's where I would start. And there's a whole bunch of different places on Facebook that you can look. Um, Disc Dog Discussions is a group that you can check out and they have, um, a whole bunch of different clubs that, that participate in that Facebook group. So you can always post where you are and somebody will chime in, you know, to give you some contact information. Um, after that, uh, the online class at Fensi is a pretty good one for foundation.

And there are several other online classes as well for Disc Dog Foundations currently. Awesome. And then, uh, kind of the way that we end every episode, our big three questions. Uh, so what's the dog related accomplishment that you're proudest of? So I thought long and hard about this question. Yeah, I have a whole, a whole lot of accomplishments that I'm very, very proud of. But the reality of it is, is I get to experience something that a lot of people don't get to experience. I get experience forming a new relationship with a whole bunch of different dogs. So in the last four years, I've had 14 different dogs, plus many fosters and dogs I've raised come through my house. And all of those dogs I've started in training and formed relationships with. And I think my most favorite accomplishment I've ever had is with each of those dogs, when that dog really kind of has that light bulb moment and go, Hey, I really do enjoy working with you. This is fun. This is a game. That's what I'm most proud of. And I mean, that's definitely like that golden moment that everybody's looking for, right? In their own relationship. Yeah, exactly. So what's the best piece of training advice that you've ever heard? That everything's a trick. You know, from my history, when I couldn't do agility anymore, I just did tricks with my dog. And so when I started actually looking into IPO and monitoring and looking at all these very complicated obedience maneuvers and precision things, it was really kind of eye-opening to remember that everything is a trick. And that kind of came from Sylvia Turkman's DVD, Healing's Just Another Trick. And that was kind of a light bulb moment for me that, Hey, this is just another trick. This is just like teaching all those other things I teach. I think that's really interesting because you mentioned it specifically kind of tied to Mondio Ring, which is definitely not a sport that people look at usually and go, Oh, it's just tricks. Yeah. No, they definitely don't. And then finally, who is someone else in the dog world that you look up to? So Sylvia Turkman. And the reason for that is when I first started my dog training career, she was the one that I went to for online classes. I watched all the DVDs and it was her upbeat attitude and her relationship with her dogs that really, really, really inspired me to be that kind of trainer. I wanted to be happy. I wanted to be to think that no matter what happens, that they're still going to come out the other side and they're still going to enjoy their dog and they're still going to be having fun. Thanks so much for coming on the podcast, Sarah.

And thanks to our listeners for tuning in. This week, we have a special treat. FTSA's own Hannah Branigan also runs a podcast called Drinking from the Toilet. And today we're sharing an excerpt from her most popular episode, What to Do When You Get Stuck. Enjoy. Hey there. You're listening to Drinking from the Toilet. And I'm Hannah Branigan. Today, we're going to talk about what you can do when you get stuck. Why are we even talking about this? Well, mostly because I was sitting here trying to think of what topic I should make my next podcast be about. And I got stuck. I couldn't think of anything to talk about. I kind of sat here. I looked at a few things on the internet, checked Facebook, took a few pictures of my dog with my phone, and pondered on how many other places in my life I feel stuck and maybe feel like a failure. And of course, at least one of those places in my life is where I feel stuck when I'm training a dog. So I thought, well, let's do a podcast about feeling stuck when you're training. Because I think that is a fairly ubiquitous experience. There's probably other people out there that sometimes get stuck when they're trying to train a behavior. And so in my previous life, when I would run into a problem, it really almost was a pattern, really, where I'm working on training a behavior or maybe untraining a behavior problem. And I would get so far. I would make a certain amount of progress. And then I would get stuck. And I would revert to punishment. Maybe intentionally as a training choice or unintentionally just as an emotional expression of frustration. But either way, I would often fall back on these old habits after feeling like I was running out of choices. And so as my journey continues, I continue to improve my understanding of behavior. I have a better picture of the behavior that I'm trying to train. My knowledge in that area increases. And I think clarity in your goal of your behavior is always helpful. And I learned more. And my skill set improved. I had better tools for manipulating behavior and for manipulating contingencies, particularly those using reinforcement. Better understanding of how reinforcement works, both in general, in concept and in theory, and then also in practical application. And so over time, I can get a lot farther before I would resort to that old habit. So eventually, maybe about 10 years ago at this point, I made a conscious decision to just take punishment totally off the table. So aversives are no longer an option for my training. So I still have frustration attacks occasionally. I'm human.

But I do try to recognize them for what they are. They're just emotional expressions. They have nothing to do with training the dog. And I don't have any expectation that they're going to change either of our behaviors for the better in the long run. But I still have a lot of situations where I still get stuck. And now there's a vacuum. So I'll still get training to the same point. I mean, a little further each time because I'm learning more. But when I get stuck, there's a place where I would punish or I would use an aversive in some way, which may or may not have solved the problem because we know that simply bringing in a punishment is no guarantee of getting the results that we want. And so now I'll get about 80% of the way there. I'll get 80% of the behavior trained that I want. And then I'm stuck. And simply not punishing doesn't give me any information about what I should do instead to continue making forward progress. I end up with kind of a vacuum. So sometimes I quit. I don't have all the answers. And I know that's disappointing to hear because, well, it frankly disappoints no one more than I disappoint myself when I don't know the answer to a problem. I don't have a solution. Well, maybe my father. He has pretty high standards. So he might be more disappointed. But, well, I learned it from somewhere. And I'm willing to bet that you get frustrated sometimes, too. And your stuckness may not manifest itself in quite the same way that mine does. Maybe instead of frustration, anger, and potentially aggression, you turn to other defensive strategies, maybe like rationalization. Sometimes I find myself thinking thoughts like maybe my dog just doesn't like to do obedience. Maybe my dog actually can't do this. It's not possible. You know, maybe he has a health problem. Maybe it's his thyroid. He could have a thyroid. He could have low thyroid. So if my training plan didn't pay out the way I expected it to, clearly the problem is caused by his thyroid. And no protocol would have worked. He needs medication. This dog needs pills to fix this problem. And it has to be just the right medication. And it could take weeks or even months or years to find what that medication could be. And so none of this is actually a training problem. It's not in my control. It's not me. It's the dog, right? Okay. Well, now, to be clear, I'm not trivializing endocrine disorders in any way. They're very real. And certainly having a health problem does throw a wrench into the works and add contingencies beyond those that we can realistically control within the context of a training session.

So if you're worried or suspicious that your dog has a physical or medical problem, it's always a good idea to consult with your vet to get that physical problem ruled out. Make sure your dog is healthy and sound. I know I certainly have no problem paying my vet $100, sometimes maybe more, to be told that I'm crazy and there's absolutely nothing wrong with my dog. But just to be clear again, every now and then, I'm actually right. And so, you know, I have that long interval random reinforcement effect that maintains my behavior dog after dog year after year. Anyways, okay. Let's assume that we've ruled out any physical issue. What can we do when we get stuck trying to train something? So it is a training problem. We're stuck with the training. We need to change something about the training to get past this obstacle. Okay. So here's a pretty common scenario. You're trying to train some behavior. Maybe you're following a training plan or recipe that you found on the internet. You saw it on YouTube. Or maybe you've just been to a seminar. And this is now, you know, Monday morning. And you're trying to apply the technique that you learned in that seminar to your training in real life. And now the PowerPoint slides aren't there and the presenter isn't there. And so you're on your own. And so maybe you get through the first couple of steps. You're shaping and things seem to be going okay. You think you're doing it right. You think you're doing it the same way as you learned in that seminar. And then all of a sudden you hit a plateau. And the dog keeps doing the same version of the behavior over and over again without progressing to the next step. So maybe you've made it through steps one and two. And then on step three, instead of performing step three a couple of times, then moving on to step four, your dog just keeps doing step three over and over and over again. You can't see why you're not able to make the leap to that next step. And this is a common problem that I run into with different behaviors with different dogs. And I certainly see it in my own students periodically. Maybe you're trying to teach your dog to retrieve an object. And your shaping plan is I'm going to start by clicking when the dog looks at the object. And then I'll click him for sniffing it. And then I'll click him for touching it with his nose or targeting it. And then the next thing I'll click is for him to open his mouth and bite the object. But instead of biting the object, he just keeps touching it with his nose over and over again. And he never opens his mouth. What do I do then?

Another common place that we'll kind of run into this situation would be adding duration or distance to an existing behavior. So you can get the dog to hold the sit for eight seconds. But as soon as you reach for nine seconds, the behavior falls apart. Or you can get your dog to respond to a cue. Maybe he'll lie down when you give him the cue at six feet. But when you take one more step back, the behavior disappears or starts to degrade. And it's really frustrating. And then it's easy to think this isn't working. Something's wrong with this technique. This method is ineffective. Or we can continue to spiral down and think about what might be wrong with the dog and then the world in general. And so obviously, continuing to repeat the thing that's not working isn't the right choice. And that brings to mind that quote that I know I've seen in lots of different places. I often see it attributed to Einstein. But I don't know if that's true or if it's just Internet true. So to paraphrase, the idea that repeating the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. So we may still be crazy, but this totally applies here. Even if we just look at the ABC operant contingency and we're repeating that same ABC, the same antecedent or A, the same behavior or B, and the same consequence, C, then yes, we're probably going to continue to get the same result. So we need to change something. I like thinking about it this way because it gives me three solid categories of things to look at. And three is my favorite number. Also, it's a prime number. So there's a lot of things to recommend it. But three categories is a very achievable way to start putting stuff in buckets and structure our thinking. So let's start with A, the antecedent. So the antecedent, this is the cue. This is what's inducing or causing the behavior, what's associated with the behavior. And when we're thinking about this in terms of cues from us, so I say sit and the dog sits. Well, that's easy to recognize and understand. But in active training, when we're learning, the antecedent really is much bigger than that. It's a much bigger idea. It's more than just the cue you're deliberately giving. But it's that whole picture on all of the stimulus and in all the pieces of the picture. So it's the whole setup that the dog is associating with a particular behavior. It's your body, where you're, you know, your body position, where you're situated in space, your dog's position, any props that you might be using if you're using a platform or a target,

or if you're using an object in the case of that retrieve. And it's the environment in general, where the dog is, where you're training, all of the sounds, smells, feels, tastes, maybe. All of those things are in that big stimulus picture. And so that whole picture functions as the cue while the dog is learning the behavior. Thanks to Hannah for letting us share that with you. I hope you'll consider subscribing to both our podcast and hers if you haven't already, in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice. We'll be back next week, this time with Laura Wadby, to talk Fenzie team training and training service dogs. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast, and to Hannah Branigan for the excerpt from her podcast, Drinking from the Toilet. Music provided royalty-free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang and transcription written by CLK Transcription Services. Thanks again for tuning in, and happy training! Be with us. Be with us.