E28: 수 야노프(Sue Yanoff) - "퍼포먼스견을 위한 스포츠 수의학"

to visit my parents. And I also went to visit the vet I used to work for when I was in high school. And there was a little beagle puppy with a calf on his hind leg coming out of anesthesia. And I picked him up and I cuddled him. I said, oh, I want to take this puppy home. And they said, well, you can. Because his owners had him for just a couple of days and their little boy broke his leg and they were going to pick him up from the vet that afternoon and take him to the animal shelter. So some phone calls were made and I got the puppy and took him back to college with me. And I didn't know anything about dog training. I had never heard of crate training. So I would just leave him in my apartment that I shared with two roommates while I went to class. And of course, he destroyed things and did all the naughty things that puppies do. So I thought, I need to do something. And I enrolled him in the kindergarten puppy class at the local dog training club. And that's how it got started. And I ended up getting a CDX on that dog while I was in vet school. And that got me started in dog sports. Wow. So to go from, you know, never having done anything dog training wise before to a CDX, that's pretty impressive, Sue. Mm-hmm. Now, I'd imagine being both the sports dog handler and a vet has led to some pretty unique insights into each field. How has being involved in both influenced your views in each of those? Yeah, that's an interesting question. As a dog trainer, all my dogs have at one point in their careers been injured. And I know what it's like to have to restrict your dog's activity. You can't train them. You can't show them. It's very frustrating. And so as a vet, when I have to tell a client, okay, you can't train, you can't show, you have to restrict your dog for weeks or months sometimes, I know how frustrating that can be and how hard it can be. But I also understand where they're coming from. So I think I can see it from both sides. Is there anything in particular about veterinary medicine that sports handlers often just don't understand? Yeah, I don't think it's just sports handlers. I think it's a lot of people. Veterinary medicine is a science. And the decisions that we make have to be based on science and not just what people think or what they heard. And so when you're making a decision about what the best diagnostics are for a condition or how best to treat the condition, it has to be based on a series of cases, not just on what somebody thinks. And I go a lot based on what I learn at continuing education

conferences and what I read in the veterinary literature, because papers that are published in peer-reviewed journals are scrutinized to make sure the science behind the conclusions are valid. So while it's fine for somebody to say, well, I did this with my dog and he did great, what I want to make my decisions on is what worked well for many dogs, dozens or hundreds or thousands of dogs, and not just something that might have worked for your dog, where we don't even know if the diagnosis was the same. So I think I want people to know that veterinary medicine is a science and we have to make our decisions based on science. I think that, you know, especially with the internet these days, it's very common for people to turn to their favorite local forum and be like, well, what should I do? I know, like, let me get advice from everybody. And I know it's hard to make decisions when it involves your dog and you're emotionally involved. And that's one of the reasons I want to teach this class to give people information that they can use to make those hard decisions. What about the reverse? Are there things about sports that you think most of that's just they don't understand? Oh, yes. Yes, there's a lot. Unless you're a vet who's involved in this thing, most vets don't understand the time and the effort and the emotion and the money that goes into the training and the trialing that we do. They don't understand the special relationship that we have with our dogs when we put the time and effort into training them. I have had dogs that were wonderful pets and I love them, but I never showed them for one reason or another. And there's a different relationship when you accomplish something special with that dog. So I think that's important thing. The other thing that most vets don't understand and might not agree with, but I have had some clients where we have diagnosed an injury and said, okay, we need to restrict activity and do the conservative treatment route and they say, I will, but my national specialty is next week and she's entered in whatever class. Or they say, I have a herding finals coming up in two weeks and I really want to run her in those trials. And I'm okay with that. If the dog has an injury that I don't think is likely to get much worse by doing a little more training or trialing, then I'll say, okay, well, let's do this in the meantime. And when you're done with your national or with your specialty or whatever, come on back and we'll start treatment. So I think a lot of vets would not understand

that point of view, but I'm okay with it as long as I don't think that it's going to do serious harm to the dog. And as long as the owner understands that there's a slight chance that things could get worse. I think it's really kind of interesting that you focused a little bit on performance dogs. So I wanted to ask about what led you to that, I guess, to kind of focus on that. Was it your own interest just in being involved with sports when you joined the practice in New York? Yeah, no, it's my own interest. I mean, I'm mostly retired. I've retired from three different jobs now. So I don't have to do this sports medicine stuff to make a living and to pay my mortgage. So I became interested in it when I joined the practice at Colonial Viterary Hospital about the same time my colleague Lynn joined it. She's a physical therapist. She was a physical therapist for people for 20 plus years before she decided she wanted to work on animals. So she went to vet tech school to become a vet tech and get some animal education. And I remember when I first met her, she said to me, well, what do you think about physical therapy for dogs? And I thought, I don't know anything about it. So the more I learned about it, the more I realized how important it is. And I did a lot of reading and I went to continue education about sports medicine. And about the same time, like a few years later, the American College of Veterinary Sports Medicine and Rehabilitation was getting going. So the whole topic of canine sports medicine was getting more popular and people were learning more about it. So the more I learned about it, the more I liked it. And of course, since I did dog sports, I understood what's involved in dog sports. So when Lynn and I started this little practice, we did see pets for the first year or two, but then we said, you know what, we don't want to deal with pet people. Performance dog people in general, their dogs are better trained. They're better behaved, which makes it easier to examine them. Not all of them, but most of them. They're definitely more committed to doing what needs to be done to get their dog better. So they are more willing to put the time into it and the work for treating and rehabbing the dog and the money that it costs to get their dogs better if they need surgery or other treatments. So, you know, when Lynn and I started seeing more and more animals, we said, okay, we're not doing pets anymore. We're just going to work on performance dogs. Now, I wanted to talk a little

bit about your upcoming class. So in some ways, it's the first of its kind here at FDSA. Do you mind sharing a little bit about what students can expect to learn? Well, basically, the goal of the class is to, in the words of a friend of mine that I was discussing this week with, is to make people better consumers of healthcare for their animals. I want to give them information about the various injuries that the dogs can get and how they are diagnosed and what the treatment options are and what's the best chance to get them back to competition. I want them to understand the importance of a good sports medicine exam. When I was a surgeon, when I saw an animal for an injury or a lameness, I would examine the leg that was lame. Most of the time, we knew which leg was lame, and I would examine that leg and tell them what surgery I think the dog needs, and that was that. With a sports medicine exam, I examined the whole dog. Sometimes, I don't even know which leg is lame because the owner doesn't know which leg is lame. We come with a history of knocking bars or popping weaves or not being as active, and they think there might be something wrong, but they're not sure. So, it's a totally different type of exam from when I just did surgery to now doing sports medicine. So, I want people to understand that, and I just want them to be able to make informed decisions if and when they have to deal with an injury. I'd imagine it was probably pretty hard to decide what things to fit into the class and what things were kind of like beyond the scope of what you could cover in those six weeks. So, what are some of the common types of injuries that you'll be discussing in those six weeks? Yeah, it was really tough. When I started writing lectures, I had no idea how much material I was eventually going to cover. So, you know, people can go to the website to look at the course summary to see what we cover from week to week, but three of the common injuries that we see in sports medicine are injuries to the muscles and tendons of the shoulder, the biceps and supraspinatus specifically, injuries to the iliopsoas muscle, which 10 or so years ago I never heard of, and now it's a very commonly diagnosed injury, and then also talking about cranial cruciate ligament injuries because just based on a recent thread on the FENSI alumni Facebook page, there's a lot of information out there about cranial crucial ligament injuries and some misinformation, and we have a whole lecture just on cranial crucial ligament injuries to give people, you know, just the basic facts of what's based on science, what's not

based on science, what the options are, because there's always options. There's no one best way to treat almost anything. So those are probably the three most common things that people know about that they'll learn, but there's a ton of other stuff in the class. Now, I know that the syllabus mentions prevention a little bit, and I wanted to know if you could talk for a minute about the role that prevention plays when it comes to these kinds of injuries. You know, how much should sports handlers focus on preventing problems? If you can, even beyond that, are there skills that they should teach that would make dealing with these kinds of problems, should they occur, easier before there's ever actually a problem for them to be worried about? Yes. Well, prevention is always best. And as far as preventing injuries in dogs, the bottom line is we don't know what we can do to prevent injuries. Everything that we know is based on the human literature and some horse literature, but there are no studies in veterinary medicine for dogs as to anything that's proven to prevent injuries. So we have to just extrapolate from the human literature. But there certainly are lots of things. In fact, my sample lecture is my lecture on preventing injuries, and that's a freebie for anybody to go read. But one of the most important things is to keep your dog thin and fit. And there's some really good FENSI classes on canine conditioning. So I think that's important. The other thing that is important that I noticed that a lot of handlers don't do because I compete with my clients, I compete with all the people, and I can see that they don't spend enough time warming their dogs up before the competition and cooling the dog down after the competition. Now, for an obedience trial, a warm-up probably is not as important as something like field trials or agility trials and certainly lower coursing. But I think those three things, conditioning, warm-up, and cool-down, will go a long way to helping to prevent injuries. And then as far as what they can teach their dog that will help, there's two things. One is to teach your dog to allow a hands-on examination, including lying on their side while I examine them. Most of the dogs that I see are pretty good about it. Some of them will, you know, fuss a little at first, but they pretty much relax into it. But I've had a few dogs where there's no way we can lay them on their side to examine them, and I can barely get in a good standing exam. So it'd be really nice to be able to have your dogs do that. And I know that Deb's Cooperative Canine Care class,

I'm sure, can help with that. And then the other thing that's important is the best gate to diagnose a lameness is a trot. And a lot of my patients either won't trot nicely on a leash, they want to bounce around or pull or run, or they won't trot on a leash next to the owner without looking up at the owner. And that kind of throws the gate off a little. So to teach your dog to have a nice, straight trot on leash without looking up at you would be another thing that would make my life a little bit easier. I mean, I definitely wouldn't have thought of that second one. The first one definitely makes sense, having the dog lay on its side and being able to be calm while it's examined. But it never would have occurred to me that it would be important to have a forward motion where the dog wasn't looking at you for diagnostic purposes. Right. That's why it's really nice when we get show dogs, confirmation dogs that know this skill. So, I mean, we get the job done, but there are certain things that can make it easier for the dog, the owner, and me. Now, obviously, there's a limited amount you can do remotely when it comes to canine medicine. So how are you doing the different levels in the class and what will and won't be covered in class? Right. Well, the first thing I want to say is I will not make any diagnoses over the phone or online. And the reason for that is that, you know, in order to give advice on diagnosis and treatment, you have to establish a veterinary client-patient relationship. And in most states, at least in New York State, that means you have to see the client and the dog in person. So while I can, you know, answer people's questions and look at video and say, well, you know, it could be this, and it might be this, and you might want to get these diagnostic tests. And if it's this, then this treatment works. If it's that, this treatment works. I don't want people to sign up for the class expecting me to diagnose their dog online. So with that said, there's going to be two levels, bronze, which is a typical bronze level, and then silver. And with this new working silver, level that FENG has, I think all the silver spots will be working silver spots because there will be no gold spots. So it's only, it's mainly a discussion class. But I want the silver students to be able to at least post photographs. They can even post radiographs or x-rays if they want to. If we mutually agree that a video will be helpful, they can post a video of their dog, and they can ask any question they want. They can ask general questions about the material. They can

ask specific questions about their dog. They don't have to pick one dog. They can ask specific questions about any dog they want to. I want there to be a lot of discussion because I think everybody, me, the silver students, and the bronze students will learn a lot from the discussions as much, if not more, than from the lectures. So I'm hoping to have some really active silver students. Hopefully, having said that, you will now get even more of them than you would have otherwise. I think that that'll be a real appeal for students to know that you really want an active silver group. Right. And then the other thing they should understand is there's so much material that we could cover. But this class is basically covering injuries and not specifically hereditary or developmental disorders like hip dysplasia or elbow dysplasia or OCD. I mean, those are common in sports dogs, but that could be a whole class in itself. So I really had to limit something. So we're going to be talking about injuries that they can acquire. So maybe in the future if this class does well, huh? Maybe. And when I want to spend another huge amount of time writing these lectures. You mentioned earlier, treatment decisions for dogs can be super hard, you know, whether they're a performance dog or just a pet. So I'd imagine that one of the major benefits of this class will be that students will feel significantly more informed when they have those kinds of decisions to make in the future. First of all, would you agree with that? It sounds like from what you said earlier, you would. And then do you have any advice for students who may be facing those kinds of decisions now? Yes. So yes, the class will provide a lot of information to help the students make better decisions about their dog's medical care. But what they need to know for now are two things that I think are important. One is to get a diagnosis. It's really hard to make a treatment plan without at least having an idea of what's going on. And general practitioners are great. I have a lot of respect for general practitioners because I was one for five years. But they're not specialists in any one subject. So unless the cause of the lameness is very obvious, you might have to see an expert. And there are two experts that can be used for sports dogs. One is a board certified surgeon, which is what I am. And more and more board certified surgeons are realizing that sporting dogs, performance dogs are a little bit different from pets. And so they're dealing with them a little bit better, although there's still some that still do what I used to do, just look at

the leg, look at the injury and not look at anything else. But then this new specialty of sports medicine and rehabilitation, there's more and more vets being trained and being board certified in that specialty. And so that would be another specialist to go see if your general practitioner is not sure about what might be going on. The other thing is I am a big fan of all the therapists that are out there, massage therapists and the physical therapists and people that do acupuncture and chiropractic. But if they're not also veterinarians, then they may not be able to make the diagnosis. They could look at things that might be causing the dog pain or discomfort that might be secondary to the diagnosis. But sometimes treating the symptoms is all you need to do. But sometimes treating the symptoms won't cut it. You need to know what the diagnosis is so you know specifically what you have to treat. And we'll discuss all that in the class. And then what I was going to say is I know that this wasn't in the questions that's in over, you know, kind of in advance of our call. But I'm curious, you kind of mentioned some specific certifications. Is there anything out there or any, do you have any recommendations if students are trying to find a good specialist or kind of get advice on where to look? Is there, you know, is there any, I guess, any way for them to kind of vet on their own, you know, okay, this is a person who really probably is going to be good for a sports dog versus this is somebody who maybe doesn't have as much of a background in that? Yes. Well, I mean, both these specialties have websites, American College of Veterinary Surgeons and American College of Veterinary Sports Medicine and Rehabilitation. And on the websites, you can look up to see who in your state is board certified. And you can also look up to see what their special interest is. So, I mean, for the sports medicine and rehab vets, then obviously their special interest is sports medicine and rehab. But for the board certified surgeons, some of them are more geared towards, you know, sports medicine versus just plain old surgery. And the other thing is you want to, if you're going to see a board certified surgeon, you want to see somebody that deals with a lot of performance dogs if possible. And you also want to deal with somebody who understands and agrees with the importance of physical therapy postoperatively. Because there are still some veterinary surgeons out there that don't think dogs need physical therapy post-op.

They just, you know, restrict the activity until the, you know, the surgery is healed and then say, okay, we'll gradually get him back to normal. And it's like, what does that mean? Or what do you do? So, I truly believe that the surgery is only half of the story. And the physical therapy, post-operative physical therapy guided by a knowledgeable person. And there are certifications in physical therapy for both veterinarians and technicians where they can get some, you know, advanced training outside of vet school and tech school on physical therapy. There's a lot of human physical therapists that are now doing veterinary physical therapy. And, you know, while I don't know how good they are, you know, the FENSI alumni Facebook page is a great resource. If you say, okay, I need a physical therapist in this area, can you recommend somebody? Or I need a good sports medicine vet or surgeon in this area, can you recommend somebody? The FENSI alumni Facebook page is a great resource. And also just talking to friends and, you know, it won't hurt to ask your veterinarian, what's your experience with this condition? How many have you done? And what's your success rate? People are a little reluctant to do that, but no good veterinarian is going to be insulted if you ask them that and they should be able to answer. I think that's a great piece of advice. Just being comfortable asking that kind of question of your vet or of your veterinary surgeon. I mean, if you don't ask, you can't know, right? That's true. So I wanted to end with the same three questions that I ask everybody who comes on at the end of the interview. So the first one is what is the dog related accomplishment that you're proudest of? Yeah. And, you know, I thought about it and it has to be the UD on my older Beagle now, Charm, because Charm is a dog that switched me from, you know, traditional training to positive reinforcement training. And I had shown her nine times in utility and nine times she NQ'd and people kept telling me, well, she's just not putting in any effort. You need to correct her harder and you need to make her do it. And so the more times she NQ'd, the harder I was on her until the final time in utility, I gave her the heal signal and she just sat there and she basically said, nope, I'm done, not doing it. So I thought to myself, you know what, there's got to be a better way. And that led to positive reinforcement training, which led to the FENZ Dog Sports Academy. And after a few weeks off from training, I retrained Charm pretty much all the utility exercises using

positive reinforcement. And about nine months later, I showed her in utility again and she got her UD in four shows. So I am really proud of Charm. I feel bad for all the stuff I did to her before I crossed over, but now that I train positive reinforcement, there's just no comparison. So I'm very proud of Charm for getting her UD. Congrats. Thanks. So the second question that I usually ask is what is the best piece of training advice that you've ever heard? Yeah, now this was a hard one because I've been taking classes at FDSA since pretty much Denise started. And there's so much good information and great advice. But if I had to pick one, I would say it's acclimation. And that is, you know, because I've had people told, tell me, don't ever let your dog sniff. Wherever you go new, don't let them sniff. They have to be paying attention to you like all the time. And it's like, you know what? I tried that with IV for a few weeks and it almost drove both of us crazy. So when I learned about acclimation, I thought, yep, this is it. This is the best piece of advice I've gotten. And especially, I'd imagine, with beagles that knows, you know, it's a real thing. So the last question is who is someone else in the dog world that you look up to? Yeah, well, it's not anybody that's known in the dog world because she doesn't teach classes and she doesn't have a blog and she, you know, doesn't do anything online. But she's a friend of mine who I've known since college. We met through dogs. When I was getting a CDX on my first beagle, she was getting a CDX on her first key shunt. And since then, she has put multiple otches and herding titles and some agility titles on her border collies. But she's also put multiple otches on her key shunts. And all of her keys, otch keys are also breed champions, some of them bred by her. So there's a lot of, you know, trainers out there who have trained another dog other than a border collie or a golden or a sheltie or whatever to an otch. And they do it once and they never do it again. But Marian has, I think, had at least four or five, if not six champion otch key shuns. And she's got a young key shuns coming up now that just finished her CD with six scores of 199 or above and one score of 200. So I'm sure that's a future otch. So, you know, I don't agree with everything she does in her training, but her dogs are really good and they are happy in the ring and they love her. Um, and she gets otches on key shims over and over and over again. So I admire her. That is quite the accomplishment. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Sue.

It was fun. Thanks, Melissa. It was fun. And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week, uh, with somebody that I've gotten lots of requests for, uh, Cassia Turcotte will be here to talk about positive gun dog training and her upcoming class on channeling dogs, natural instincts for high level behaviors while they are in drive. If you haven't already subscribed to our podcast and iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called buddy audio editing provided by Chris Lang and transcription written by CLK transcription services. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training.