E387: 브로나 달리(Bronagh Daly) - "반려견을 위한 어질리티 핸들링 쪼개어 가르치기"

really important because then it's easier for them to follow when your motion flows. And then they notice more when your motion actually slows down as well. And then that also goes kind of hand in hand with teaching verbals too. So I also am kind of very verbal heavy as it goes because I personally find them really fun to train, but I also find it just makes it so much easier for the dog to understand, particularly because us as humans are not perfect. We can't be, we can't replicate the handling perfectly every single time. So even if we are like an easy bit late, it's still easy for them to understand what we're asking of them. How did you kind of land there? What kind of led you to adopt that approach? So a few different things. One is my dog Oz, who I lost this year at six, but he, before he got all his health issues, he did a lot of agility himself and he really, really, really needed clarity. He was a dog who was very, very smart, but very, very easily frustrated. So he really, really needed things to be clear. Otherwise we had a lot of screaming of him involved. He liked to just yell if he was not. He might keep doing it, but he would yell at you to let you know that it was not clear enough for him. For him, with training kind of from the basics and then going through handling, I started to realize that the way maybe I handled Razzle originally, which heavily focused a bit more on just kind of handling itself and kind of relying on what is natural for the dog to understand. And then for Oz, I kind of moved more into teaching him more verbal so that everything was very clear for him. So when I handled something specifically like a tight turn, he also had the verbal to back it up so he would understand exactly that I didn't want him to take the tunnel that was behind that jump, that I wanted him to turn on that jump or whatever, or I wanted him to take that backside instead of the front side of the jump. And so I would say he helped me a lot to kind of realize that for me and my dogs, there is a more kind of effective way for both of us to be able to communicate on course. Can you talk a little bit about kind of what you see as foundation skills that you teach to allow for smooth handling once you kind of get to that running the course phase? Yes, totally. A lot of different stuff. So for instance, my puppy Wild right now, he will not know anything about sequencing for a very long time because I want him to understand what everything means on the flat first or what everything means on one four-inch jump or a jump with a jump bump first.

So that includes building a lot of value for coming into my hand. We do a lot of circling to be really emphatic of coming into my hand so that we can run full speed at a tunnel and then I can put my hand low and circle and he knows he wasn't told to take that tunnel, so he circles instead of going in that tunnel. Or things like going out to a toy versus coming into my hand. Lots of reinforcement training skills as well because I find those can be super, super important for dogs to be able to know when they're going to access their reinforcers and when to. And then just tons of verbal training as well. So, you know, multi-wraps around wings, training to do... Wild's putting in his two cents. Training to do flip-aways on the flat, you know, understanding what a backside means from a front side. And then starting to do a lot of either-or type stuff as well so that there is just such a high level of clarity of how each of the things he will eventually see in coursework will be before he actually ever approaches anything that looks like a sequence. So I know you talked about this a little bit already, but, you know, can you talk a little more about how you approach kind of teaching those foundation skills to your dogs? Yeah. So I definitely like to do a ton of flat work type stuff. So a lot of handling without actually any obstacles. So, you know, sending to toys, understanding of when I want you to like send forward to that toy, when I want you to, you know, follow my handling and maybe do a circle and then get a toy for my hand or food for my hand or send to a toy that's actually behind you. Lots of things like that of just following handling on the flat and then also doing a lot of kind of one obstacle work. So whether it's just like a single wing or working on a single jump or potentially even like working with three obstacles, but the point of that is not to actually be sequencing. The point of it is to be showing them like what, hey, this is what it looks like. So say you have a jump in a tunnel and then you have like two jumps kind of next to each other after it. And so you can show them like, hey, this is what it looks like when, you know, I put my two hands together and they're really low and I'm giving you this tight turn verbal and I want you to not take the tunnel behind that jump and I want you to take that jump instead and then come back to one of those other two jumps. And then now, hey, this is what it looks like when I want you to go take that jump into that tunnel. This is what my hand position looks like and this is what the verbal sounds like that you know.

So that's what it looks like, you know, with the handling, with the verbal. And then, you know, after that, like this is what it looks like when I want you to come out of the tunnel and I put my hand low and I want you to come take this jump next to me versus when I put my hand out, I want you to take the jump that's farther away from me. So I like to do a lot of stuff along those lines so that they just don't get too many ideas of what handling looks like when they don't actually know. Because I find that young dogs, and particularly smart dogs or dogs who think it's really fun, can decide that they know everything about agility really easily. And then they go, yeah, maybe you like did a blind cross there, but I'm pretty sure there was like another tunnel. So like, I think you meant I should take that. But, you know, things where they're like, your front cross was like a half a second late, so like I'm pretty sure I'm not supposed to turn. I'm pretty sure you're wrong. So I like for dogs these days, personally, to not form those opinions because it's so much easier to not have to undo that and just never counter that to begin with. So that's a big goal of mine overall as well. Because Wilde even himself, he thinks he has opinions about agility that he doesn't know. Like just teaching him a tandem on the flat, so just bringing him into me and flipping him away. Like if I'm half a second late, he will growl at me. He will do it, but it'll growl. And like that was the first time he ever learned it that he started doing that. So like, you know, we already have enough opinions. So I like to have- You have thoughts already. Yeah. Is it just that they're essentially patterning, unintentional cues that you're giving? Or is it actually, you know, just that you kind of set up expectations to be A, and so anytime you're breaking expectations, the dogs are like, hey, no. I think it's probably a mix. So I think there is definitely. So dogs obviously are really good at reading micro gestures that we don't even know that we're doing. Um, so when the kind of arm positions are, you know, specific things like verbals aren't as super duper clear, and you start sequencing, dogs will make their own decisions about what your body positions mean. Um, particularly if you're not thinking about your arm positions, which is why I really like to teach specific ones because it also forces the humans to have to have specific arm positions too. Um, so we're actually thinking about what we're doing as well. Um, but I would say that's a big part of it is that they just decide, you know, like your chest laser

was facing in that direction for five seconds. So that probably means I should go that way type of thing. And then I would say also some dogs learn how to read lines. Um, so they are like, I see a line through those two jumps to the tunnel. And so sometimes when they learn how to read lines and they're like, I get, that's what agility is. You find lines and you take them. Um, they just start to be like, I saw a line. And then you're like, wait, I was going to do a front cross. We're going that way. And they're like, but I saw that line. And then they go down that line. Um, so I think it's a mix of definitely a few different things, but I think those are two of the big ones. So can you talk a little bit about kind of what that all looks like in the final picture? Like how you're communicating with your dog on course, what you want when, after you've kind of put all the skills on them, if that makes sense. Yes. No, it totally makes sense. I have a hard time answering handling questions without like doing things with my body. So imagine. So I will do my best. Um, but yes. So essentially the goal is for me is to always give information as early as possible. Essentially that involves a lot, using a lot of verbals for a lot of different things. So like tight turns, backsides, um, throttle slices, throttle, uh, flipaways, whether, um, you know, flipaways on the flat, like all different kinds of things. Um, so using a lot of those verbals with handling, but also kind of trying to minimize the handling to be as easy as possible and as basic as possible for them to understand. Um, so, you know, say you're sending to a backside on a course, um, kind of in, I want to say the olden days. It wasn't that long ago. I'm not that old, but back in the day, um, I used to like, you know, have to put, I would send with say my right arm and then I'd put my left arm up and I'd have to like really turn into my dog and like twist my body, which then slows me down and I'm not running as efficiently for my dog. Whereas now I'm gonna start saying my verbal. So essentially as soon as my dog has finished the thing before, so if it's a jump, they've landed, maybe taken half in a stride. If it's a tunnel, they've appeared out of it. Um, sometimes even before, potentially I would tell them with a tunnel or, you know, it's a contact. They're either in position or I do running contacts so they don't stay for very long. So they're hitting the yellow or on the ground afterwards. Um, at that moment, I would start to say my verbal and my arm would already be up for that backside. And then I would just use the right arm. I would probably throw my right arm back

to help my dog a little bit to come in through that jump, but I'm going to keep moving forwards. I'm not going to be turning into my dog. My eyes will be looking down at the landing, which is something I still find to be important, putting your eyes where you want your dog to go. Um, but I'm not going to be kind of maneuvering my upper body as much as I used to. I'm going to try to keep it kind of as straight as possible. So my running line can be as clear as possible for my dog and I can stay in motion better for my dog as well. Okay. So I'm just thinking through that picture a little bit. I'm like, if that makes sense. Yes, that totally makes sense. I'm just kind of thinking through a little bit, making sure I put all those pieces in my head. Um, that's why I really want to show you with my motion. Yeah, I think I got that. Okay. So, so talking a little bit about kind of how you bridge the gap, right? So how do we get from those early stages where you're talking about, you know, one obstacle or two obstacles and, um, flat work and all those pieces to being able to run that full course with that final picture you were talking about? Are there other pieces or other training that we need to make sure we're thinking about in between those steps to make sure we kind of get to being able to apply those skills at speed at that level? Yes, for sure. Um, and I would say that it's very easy. I would say this is the easiest part that it's just to like, to skip for a lot of people. Um, cause it's like, you're like, okay, I've trained, you know, the basics, I've done all the things and then you're like, that whole handling stuff of the course is like, that looks fun. I want to do that now. Um, and then just kind of start doing sequences. Um, and then that's how we often fall into the trap of accidentally like handling stuff we don't realize we're doing and like, you know, the dog, the younger dogs get ideas or the greener dogs get ideas that we don't realize they're having. Um, and then we have to undo stuff sometimes, um, or retrain stuff sometimes. Um, so ideally what I really like to do and what I'm planning on doing with Wild now, um, is taking kind of those foundational skills and making sure that those are really strong and then starting to do some either or work. So basically asking him questions is how I see it of like, hey, do you understand, um, with this minimal handling what I am asking you to do? So like when I put my hand low, um, and I run by a jump, like, do you run by the jump too? Um, when I put my hand, you know, in the middle range and I say jump, do you then take the jump as we run by? Okay, great. Perfect. Um, do you now, when I am running forwards

and not slowing down or anything and I have my arm out and I ask for your backside cue, do you understand how to go find that backside independently without me helping you too much? Different questions like that. And he may say no and then I'm like, okay, great. We don't understand that. Perfect. Let's work on it. So now we do. Um, you know, cause I think that's the important thing is to ask a lot of questions of, hey, what do you understand this to mean when I do this? Um, and sometimes the answer is what you think it is and sometimes the answer is not that. Um, so that's why I think it's so important to ask them these questions a lot before you actually start sequencing. Um, because it's important to know that you are on the same page as your dog with what things mean before you start stringing things together, if that makes sense. So you're using the same language. Yeah, exactly. Um, so I like to do like a lot of that kind of question stuff, adding a lot of motion to that training that you've already done and making sure that the motion doesn't override other things that you've taught them. Um, and that they can have a good functional brain when they're at fuller speed as well cause that's hard. That's not easy. Um, and making sure, you know, the jumping is pretty much non-existent. Like we're using jump bumps or using low jumps cause we're not asking them to like think really hard and also do difficult things with their body. Um, as much as, you know, actually jumping. Um, so that I find to be super, super important. Um, and then just building up sequencing really slowly. So a lot of wins cause I think that's something that, um, us as humans are really bad at is being like, I'll just do three things and reward. We're like, I want to do all 15 though. Um, and then we like often get in bad habits of just running until something goes wrong and then we reward. Um, so our dog is practicing a lot of not success. Um, and often our dogs don't necessarily know that that's the idea. Like that's the ideal that they don't actually know that something's gone wrong. But again, they're really good at reading micro gestures. So they often do know, um, even, you know, and they're just good sports about it. But so I like to do, you know, building lots of chunk, like small chunk pieces of lots of being successful and lots of wins and lots of clarity, um, and lots of either or. So like, Hey, this is what these three jumps strung together look like. Now, when I want you to do something slightly different on those three jumps, that's what this looks like instead. Um, and just lots of wins through that. And then slowly adding in more and more obstacles to that. But it's gradually not like

jumping from that to like, no, let's run a full course. Yeah. Um, you mentioned you use kind of a lot of verbals. Do you want to talk a little more about that? Like, what do you have on verbal cue? And what are you relying on kind of your body language or visual cues for? Yes, totally. Um, I actually have like mental homework I'm supposed to do, which is write all of them down. So I should, I should know all of these. Um, I want to make sure I know what I'm actually training, but yeah, so I do use a lot of verbals. I am training. Uh, I have a backside on the verbal at this moment in time. I just have a single backside cue. Some people have multiple. I just have a single one. Um, I have a flip away on the flat verbal. I have a come into me and then flip away and take a jump in a tight turn. So like an outside, like a flick, um, type verbal. I have a tight turn verbal. I have a come into me and then flip away to a tunnel verbal. Specifically. I have a come into me verbal. I'm like, what is my mental list? Um, I have a come into me verbal. So I come to hands, like come into my hand verbal. Essentially. I have a go ahead verbal as well. Um, and I'm thinking maybe those are all of my verbals. I might've missed one or two. Those are the ones I have right now. How do you decide on cues? I mean, those are a lot of different pieces. Like are you, how do you make sure they're distinct and different and all that good stuff for. Yeah. So I, yeah, you, that's a huge thing you want to remember. Um, is that how do you say a word when you're running fast and out of breath? Does it sound similar than you say a different word when you're also that? Um, so yeah, so I try to pick verbals that are really easy to enunciate for me and verbals that I find really easy to repeat. Cause I like to repeat my verbals a lot too. Cause I find that to be really helpful for the dog. So like, particularly for something like a backside when you're leaving, out, mine's out. So I would say out, out, out, out. Um, I can enunciate that. So that sounds really different from a different verbal, which is like my tight term verbal is kick, kick, kick, kick, kick, kick. So that sounds really different than the other. Um, so I just try to pick verbals that mentally make sense to me. So I remember them. Um, but then also are easy to enunciate and easy to repeat. Um, that sound, you know, have consonants and vowels that sound enough different, um, that the dog is is not going to be confused. Um, cause I've had that with students a couple of times where they say something and I'm like, so I'm 99% sure your dog thought you meant to go straight. Cause the way you said that verbal sounded exactly like that, even though you meant

them to go to the backside. And then we're, we have a conversation of, Oh, okay. Maybe we have to change one of these words cause your dog definitely just does not understand when there's, you know, a lot of stuff going on. Okay. So does any of this shift or change when you're thinking about starting it from like a start line where the dog is in a static stopped position versus like in movement, in motion? Like just, you know, how do you kind of pull those pieces together? Yeah. Um, so I would say largely it does not change a lot. Um, I would say it's kind of the same across the board. The one difference, um, is that what I'm now teaching is another specific verbal, which I didn't put on my list, um, which is to focus on the first obstacle. So that's something that I find can be really helpful, um, for a lot of people to avoid things like running by the first jump. Or, you know, you're leading way out and they're like, Ooh, where are you going? Um, and they don't even like see the first jump or, you know, there's a tunnel there that looks really good. And they're like looking to that tunnel behind them. And they're like, I don't know. I really liked that one. Um, those kinds of things to make that start line extra clear. Um, so I like to use something, you know, where you can point to the first obstacle and say focus. And then the dog knows even as you're leading out that that is something that they should be looking to and that they are going to imminently take. Um, and then I would say body position wise, largely the only difference is that you're probably slightly still at the beginning. Um, and my goal on the agility course is to pretty much never be still. I used to do a lot of like stepping and going type stuff. And instead now I like to just kind of use motion. And then when you see the dog kind of saying check, yep, got it. Then kind of moving away, but in flow. Um, cause I find it easier for the dogs to understand, easier for the human to not have to like get that stepping timing perfect. Um, and then the dog doesn't also notice that you're leaving as much. So some dogs, when you step and go, um, instead of kind of just moving in, they've got it and leave, they go, where are you going? Um, and then they want to go with you. Um, and then that pulls their commitment off. Um, so I find kind of teaching them that that's never part of the picture can be super helpful as well. All right. So you mentioned it's easier when you can see it, but you've got both a webinar and a class coming up so that people can see it. So let's talk about those for just a sec. Um, can you share a little more kind of on what each is, what you're covering in each, maybe who might want

to join you? Yeah, I have a webinar. Was it on the fifth? Um, is that Thursday? Yes. Um, that is about verbal discrimination. So kind of that in between piece, but it's where we start by using toys to work on that verbal discrimination. Um, so instead of just kind of jumping right into doing obstacles, which can be really hard for dogs to ask them at first to be like, Hey, here are these two agility verbals. Now, can you understand which is which? Um, I like to start kind of with an intermediate step, which is with toys. So we're asking them, Hey, can you understand the difference between just going to collect your reinforcement and doing this verbal versus doing the, you know, collecting your reinforcement behind you when I'm running straight towards a tunnel? Um, or can you, you know, and then I'm running straight towards the tunnel and the reinforcements behind you, but can you now take the tunnel in front of you all on verbals? Um, so it's essentially working on verbal clarity and understanding, but with reinforcers first. And then we kind of talk about how to ease them into that verbal discrimination that can be really, really useful for later down on in agility. Um, so that's the webinar. And then the class is a lot of kind of the handling piece and building that clarity foundation for it. Um, so I have students who are kind of varying levels. So I have some more seasoned agility handler teams. Um, and then I have some more kind of greener beginner handling teams. So it's a really lovely mix that we have going on, which is super fun. Um, and it's building essentially really huge clarity on what your handling cues mean. Um, and by handling cues, I literally mean your hands, um, what your arms mean and using them very specifically and purposefully. Um, so that both you and your dog understand what your hands and what your arms mean when they do something. Um, so we're not just like handling giraffes all day or anything like that. Um, we're handling mice, you know, whatever, whichever way you go. And through that, we're understanding kind of what it means when you, we want them to come into us and come to our hand or, you know, take a tighter turn or something like that. Um, and then what it means for when we want them to go ahead, um, or to go out away from us. Um, and then we're also going to be working on that start line piece of that forward focus on the start line and the focus in general on the start line as well. Um, so essentially it's, it's come to hand forward focus and then focus on the start line is, is a too long didn't read version. Um, but, um, that's basically the focus though is clarity is handling clarity kind of in general and then really understanding that

we're all speaking the same language. So for folks listening who want to grab the webinar, it will have happened the day before the podcast comes out, but it should still be available to buy if you're listening to this on Friday, Saturday, or Sunday. So, um, if you want to grab that, you should be able to go back and, uh, and grab it. Awesome. All right. So any final thoughts or maybe key points that you want to kind of leave folks with? Yeah. So something to think of with all of kind of like agility foundation, um, is also that it should be really fun for your dog. Um, so it should be well, ideally fun for you too. That's why you're doing it. Um, but ideally fun for both of you. Um, but we really want that to be fun for our dog and we really want the clarity to be there as well. Um, so those are kind of two goals that I think are really important to keep in mind of like why you're doing all this flat work. Um, why you're doing all this foundation is that you want to build that like drive and fun for your dog to do all the things and that they're like, yeah, let me come into you and circle. I love that. Um, like wild sometimes will get so excited. He'll like bite me a little bit because he loves a circle. Um, he's like, I love going in a circle. It's amazing. You don't have to get them that excited, but you want like that real good feeling and like excitement and drive to do all of these verbals are coming into your hand or going far. You want the love for that as well as the clarity. So we want to both sides. We don't just want like it to be clear and boring for them. We want the clarity, but also we want them to think it's super cool as well. Cool. Um, I like that and that's a good reminder, right? That if you're not having fun doing dog sports with your dog, something's going wrong. Um, if you're not having fun or your dog's not having fun, something's going wrong. It's time to reevaluate your goals. Yeah. 100%. Awesome. All right. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Brona. Thanks so much for having me. Absolutely. And thanks to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week. Don't miss it. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. See you next time.