E368: 트레이시 맥레넌(Tracey McLennan) - 현실 세계를 위한 동물 방해 요소 극복하기

So at the moment, I don't know all that much about Spike because he's too young and he's not yet hit the sort of times of life when it would be likely to appear. But those are my dogs at the moment. A couple more months. A couple more months and that'll start to kick in. Yes, I think so. Yeah. A couple more months and I think I'll start to see it. So when we talk about dogs who are easily distractible by, you know, sight, scent, sound, kind of prey animals or birds, right? Are we talking about genetics or some dogs just wired this way more than others? Yeah, there definitely is a strong, strong genetic component, which is why I'm so confident that Spike will develop that sort of interest because, you know, he comes from that sort of breeding. So yeah, there's a very strong genetic component and that's why typically if you go a Labrador, you would expect them to want to pick things up. If you go a Border Collie, you would expect them to stalk and eye. If you go a Cocker like I have, you would expect them to be very interested in birds and putting their nose down and moving in that quite erratically across the ground. So there is a very strong genetic component. But it's not only genetics. It's like everything. It's learning as well. Learning is very strongly influences how dogs will express their genes. So depending on where you live, depending on what you do with your dogs on a day-to-day basis, all of that impacts on how those genes express themselves in the world. So it's both really learning and genetics are equally as important, I would say. But yes, certainly, I would consider myself quite silly if I was to get a dog of spikes breeding and be surprised when he develops an interest in birds and starts wanting to, you know, doing a lot of training with him at the moment around birds because I expect the interest to pop up at some point. He'll reach a stage of development and then something will happen that will kick the interest in. That's usually what happens. I know, like, part of what you talk about sometimes is, like, predatory instincts and kind of what that looks like, right? Can you maybe just talk us through an overview of that? Kind of what you mean about that? Absolutely. So predatory instincts are, you know, part of most all predator species and are linked to getting pre. So with dogs, in particular, unlike any other predator on the planet, dogs have been selectively bred to enhance some parts of that and limit the expression of other parts of the behaviour. So for me, there's like 10 separate behaviours that are probably more than that.

I've read articles about herding dogs that talk about other things and I've spoken to people with working terriers who told me about specific vocalisations they make at specific times. So this list is, I would say, nowhere near exhaustive. But this is what we've got for the moment. So hunt, searching for prey. Orient, which just means, like, turning towards positioning themselves, in some way getting ready to move closer to the preys, typically, or getting ready to do something with the prey. They might not necessarily move. The next step along is eye of the prey, which is, like, what you see border collies do a lot of. And you'll see them as well with, like, toys and things. They often will, like, if they're playing with toys with their person, they'll often just drop the toy and start staring at it. That's eye. Stalk. That crouch down, head, low, chest, low, very slow movement. Common in setters and pointers and those sorts of dogs often can be seen doing a good stalk. Chase. I think everybody's familiar with Chase. Running quickly towards the prey with the intention of closing the distance. Or assumed. We assume the intention is to close the distance. I would question if that is the case with every dog. I personally have seen dogs, like, chase prey out of an area so that they could go back and just hunt around and enjoy the smell. And I also question, I sometimes watch dogs chasing and I think, is it really that you want to get closer to the prey itself? Or is it that you're following the strongest scent? What's going on there? So even chase, I don't think it's as straightforward as they're trying to get, they're trying to close the distance because I don't think it is with every dog. But probably with most dogs chasing to get closer. So then there are the bites. The bites. And dogs might do one, two, unlikely to do all. But there's a grab bite, which is a hard bite that in a wild predator would be intended to disable or even kill the prey. So when my mastiff, he was my first dog and he had a he had quite a prey drive. And he if he caught a rabbit, he would kill the rabbit immediately with a grab bite because he was such a big dog. He didn't need to do anything else. As soon as he had the rabbit in his mouth, that was it was that was the end for the rabbit. So then there's the possess bite, which is softer. This is what your gun dogs would do. Soft, hold, hold and carry rather than biting to injure. In fact, if they do injure, that's really bad in field trials. Nobody wants the dogs, must not be injuring. It's usually birds.

But I am told in the UK, at least, that they used to do field trials with rabbits, which I did not know that. But apparently that rabbits at one time were more popular than game birds. Interesting. Yes. I was really interested. It was somebody in the 70s or 80s who was telling me that. I'd been field trialing for a long time. But now it's birds, typically birds. So that hope possess is all about holding and carrying rather than like trying to kill or capture the preaks. Typically, those animals have been shot and are at least injured, ideally already dead by the time the dog puts their mouth around them. Then there's the kill bite, the hold and the shake of the head that terriers do. People with gun dogs have said to me that sometimes they do it as well. It's a bit of a fault and they try and train it out of them. But apparently some of them will perform a shake of the head. But more often than not, you would see it in terriers. And then the last two stages are dissect and consume. Not as likely to see in dogs. So dissect is all about tearing the prey open so that it can be eaten and consume as eating. Most domestic dogs probably won't do those. There are occasions when it might happen, but it's less common in domestic dogs. But partly because it's been completely not selected for in breeding. All of the other bits are useful to us. The dissect and consume, that's not useful to anybody with a working dog. So it's broadly been selected away from. So those are all the parts. So there's lots of moving parts to it. It's super interesting to think that we've selected away from the part that's probably functionally the most important if they weren't domesticated, right? It's really interesting. But there was some research in the 1970s. A researcher compared beagle puppies and coyote puppies. I mean, it was in the 70s when the ethics were different when it came to scientific experiments. Because he used live rats in the experiment and basically just put a rat in with puppies to see what would happen. There was the bulk of the experiment. And what he found was the beagle puppies just didn't know what to do. They would be interested in the rat, but they didn't really understand what to do with it. Whereas the coyote puppies, they had no trouble. They were eating those rats. It was no problem for them. So there is some research as well into it that we have, yes, selected away from what would be the functional point of it all. It's not so much there now. That's so interesting. So if somebody finds themselves with one of these dogs who kind of live for hunting or chasing or finding prey, where do we start?

What foundation skills do we need to teach to start to maybe overcome some of that, at least kind of on a level where it's functional for us? Yeah. Yeah. So there's a number of things that we can do and skills that need to be learned. So for the dogs, self or impulse control, people call it different things. But for the dogs, definitely learning to at least put a pause on their impulses is important. Also for the dogs, some sort of an incompatible behaviour. People use various things like I've seen hand touches used. I quite like a stop or a wait at a distance and a recall. Some people teach a really good about turn, but something that's incompatible with continuing towards the prey. And for humans, the foundational skills for people are really about learning how to be a good observer. That's the most important thing for people. And then management for both humans and dogs, learning to be able to be on a lead and it not be chaotic or at least not chaotic most of the time. You know, that sort of management, management as in as well and having been able to be in fenced areas without getting really, really frustrated about it. So there's like lots and lots of management as well. And that's really for both. But those are the foundations that I would be looking at. If you're working specifically on, you know, trying to overcome this type of behaviour, how much of your training do you do kind of out in the real world? And how much of it is about kind of really building those foundations, you know, to a fluent level away from the type of distractions that we're talking about? So ideally, I think you would build them to a good level away from those distractions. And ideally, you would use distractions that are under your control. And then you would start to introduce the prey. In practice, few people are going to be able to do that because few of us live in a way where we could never come across prey while we're training our dogs. So, you know, I've got my puppy who I know at some point is going to become very interested in birds. And whenever I go outside, he's highly likely to see birds. You know, there might be one just flying out the garden as we open the door. Or, you know, when I'm in the park, a bird might swoop right in front of his nose. So in practice, in an ideal world, I would have none of that until I felt as though, you know, until he was like over a year old and we'd gone through most of adolescence and everything was going well. That would be my ideal. But in practice, in practice, almost everybody is training around the distractions as well as in places like their house.

Because you have to be because otherwise you couldn't take your dog outside. And in fact, one winter I had a mouse in my house. So even inside the house. I have a friend who's dealing with that at the moment. Her dog has decided that she needs to be very aware. Yes, that was that was what happened to me. It was fine if I was out or if we were or if we were going to sleep. That was all fine. But if I was trying to sit in my office and work, then was like really, really just wanted to hunt for the mouse. I would say. They wanted to work. Yes, she wanted to work. I would say if your friend is catching them with humane traps, take them a long way away from home. Because they apparently can travel several miles to get back. I started off, I would catch the mouse and release it in the back garden and it would come straight back in again. And you have to apparently, then I Googled and you have to apparently take them a long way away. So then I caught three, released them miles away from the house and then it just all, that was fine. They were the last of, that was all the mice and they were gone. Fair enough. Okay, so I think that we kind of hear two different pieces of advice when it comes to this stuff, right? Like we hear the advice that, you know, we don't want our dogs to practice the behaviors that we don't want them to repeat. Because behaviors grow stronger the more that they're practiced. So that's like one side of things. But we also kind of hear that certain behaviors, they feel kind of necessary to our dogs. And we hear it recommended that instead we need to find other outlets for those same behaviors in order to meet those needs. Can you talk a little bit about where you kind of fall on that spectrum, you know, and maybe why when it comes to prey-based behaviors? So where I fall on that spectrum when it comes to prey-based behaviors is we need to be giving them outlets 100%. For most of our dogs, their interest in prey has been quite deliberately created in them through selective breeding. And also the way we live in places where we often live quite close to prey animals. And so for the dogs to have those instincts and us to be saying, oh no, you don't get to do any of that. I mean, it just creates difficulty. It creates things in the dogs when the predatory instincts aren't well understood and aren't well managed and alternatives aren't given. What you end up with is dogs where as soon as you step outside the door, the dog instantly can't look at the person because they're busy scanning the environment.

Or with some of the retrieving breeds, English cockers seem to, this seems to happen more with them than some of the other dogs that are bred. To retrieve, but you sometimes get quite extreme resource guarding. If that need to hold, have and hold and carry isn't met, you can get resource guarding, you can bring it out in them quite easily. So the outlets are vital for the dogs because it's not their fault, right? They're bred to find whatever, do whatever their job is with prey. And then we get them and say, I don't want you to do any of that. I want you to just walk to the park with me, hang out with every dog that you see and be nice to them. Ignore all the birds, the squirrels, the deer, the foxes, all the wildlife. Just ignore it and then we'll come home and that will be fine. And it's just, it would be, I always think it's like if I was to go to a puppy class with my puppy and the trainer said to me, now, Tracy, you need to bring, you know, good, bring the good treats because he'll be distracted by the other puppies. So bring, you know, nice roast meat and, you know, get something good that he's going to like. And I said, I don't want to do that because I just want him to work for kibble. Most reward-based trainers would say, well, that's just not realistic. That's my view of expecting dogs who are bred to have an interest in prey. Or if it's just, sometimes it's a surprise, sometimes they're not bred to have an interest in it at all. And it's just there because genetically they are descended from predators. So for some dogs, it is just a surprise. Because I've met some toy breeds where they've got a really strong interest in prey. So even if that's happened, even if that's happened, still it's a bit like insisting that you take your puppy to puppy class and reward them with dry kibble and that they'll focus on you and not on any of the other puppies or the people around you with cheese and hot dogs and roast chicken and things like that. It's just, it's not realistic. So for me, finding meaningful outlets that don't put you at risk, your dog at risk, or ideally the wildlife at risk is important. Do you have an example? Of an outlet? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's easy for me to give outlets because I have got cockers so often. I'll just like hide toys in the grass. Or even if I know there's scent, I might even just say go and run around in there and sniff for a bit. And that's an outlet for my sort of dog. If I had like a terrier and they wanted to grab and shake, I'd be using like long toys that they could hold and shake

and I might wriggle them in the grass like they were some kind of a critter. Or I'd probably get toys with squeakers because for terriers, that's often like they like, they like that because the squeakers are meant to sound like an animal being bitten. So I would use things like that if I had a terrier. So yeah, there's like loads and loads of alternatives that you can give to dogs. And the trick is, so there is some, there is some, I would ideally, I would be wanting to focus the dog's attention on something like a toy, particularly for the dogs that want to kill things, rather than on the animals themselves. So that's where I would focus my management is on like doing my best to prevent catching of squirrels or rabbits and instead offering them something else to do for sure. That makes a lot of sense. When we're talking about this kind of thing, is it ever possible to actually completely overcome critter distractions? Or is it something that handlers should just, you know, kind of expect they're going to be working on, you know, one level or another for the life of their dog? In most cases, I would expect to be working on it somehow for the lifetime of the dog. There are exceptions. I didn't really have to do a huge amount of work with my mastiff. He was unusual in that what he most wanted to do was eat. So the only thing that I did consistently was make sure I always had food on me when I was out with him. And because I was a reliable source of food, he would always just leave prey alone. He was unusual though because of his like very, he was very specific about what he wanted. And it was to eat the prey. And most dogs aren't like him. But possibly with dogs like him, you can reach a point where you don't really need to think about it. But for most of them, the interest will persist throughout their life until like the dog is too old or too ill. That's usually what stops it. I mean, even my dog Coulin, who was the dog that really got me into this when I found I couldn't train him in spite of being able to train a dog who's been killing rabbits to leave them alone. But then I got Coulin, who was a collie cross, and he, I couldn't train him. I couldn't keep him near me. He was such a struggle. And eventually I figured out what was going on with him. I trained him and he was able to be off lead for years and years and years. He was always interested in wildlife scent. And he was like that until he died. And towards the end of Coulin's life, he was deaf. He couldn't see very well. He was ill. He had a neck injury. He had a tumour pressing on his heart. And every day I used to take him.

Yeah, but he had the best end of his life. So every day I used to take Coulin to this field near me that was filled with rabbits. And every day he would just like run around or like slowly run around because he couldn't go very fast. But he would slowly run around. He would sniff the scent. And I didn't really have to do anything in particular with him. By then he'd learned that if he came across an actual rabbit, he should just come back to me. And he'd learned by then he had a really strong habit of keeping an eye on where I was. Because his thing had been he used to get lost. So we'd worked very hard on him remembering that he had to keep an eye on where I was when he was sniffing for wildlife scent. So he would sniff the rabbits. But he would always remember to be watching for me. Because I couldn't call him back by then. Because he couldn't hear me. And he couldn't see me very well either. But he was actually he was more dedicated about keeping an eye on me when he couldn't hear me or see me very well. So yeah. But right up until the end with Coulin, he had an interest. And to me, that's normal with these sorts of dogs. At the end, when they're, you know, when life's very hard for them, they might lose interest. But even then, I've seen video footage of dogs that are clearly, you know, badly injured or very close to the end of their life. And they're still trying to do something with prey, like herd sheep or search for rabbits. So it's part of them. I do always think that mindset work is really important for people with dogs like this. Because often it's not wanted in companion dogs at all. And so to look at a young dog who's doing things that you would really rather they didn't. And then be saying, and this is you for the rest of your life, it's hard. It can be hard to come to terms with. So like mindset work and seeing it as more and more and more important, the more I work in this area, the more important I think it is. I mean, it's completely different. If like the gundog trainer I go to, she would be really horrified if she had a spaniel that wouldn't hunt, you know, she would find a new home. She wouldn't keep a dog like that because the dog would sit in a kennel and have nothing done with them because her dogs all work. So, but in companion dogs, it's often really not wanted. And it can be a bit of a process to come around to see it as a good thing. But I like really want it to be seen as a good thing because it's part of, you know, it's part of what a dog is.

So part of the reason we're talking about this stuff, right, is that you're offering your first class at FDSay This Term on this topic. Do you want to just share a little bit more about the class, maybe what you're planning to cover and who should consider signing up? Absolutely. So my class composed and focused around critters. I'm very excited about it. So it looked, the main focus of the class is understanding what the dogs really want when it comes to prey. Because it's so unwanted in companion dogs, really often what people will come to me and say is, but my dog just loves chasing things. And when we delve into it, that's not at all what's going on. So there's a lot in the class about tasting and observing and understanding what each of the dogs wants when it comes to prey. So that can offer them an alternative that's meaningful to that dog. Because I think what happens a lot of the time when food and toys fail, it's because they're not being offered in a way that's meaningful to the dog. Or they're being offered in a way that just raises arousal, but without meeting the dog's needs. Like the many dogs I see in the park who are chasing, who are just being exercised with a ball thrower. And a lot of them, that's not meeting their needs at all. And to me, I think it just ramps up the dog's arousal and doesn't, but doesn't satisfy them properly. And so we're going to spend a lot of time working out how to satisfy the dogs. Because when you can do that, it's a real game changer. And it's just, it's not as straightforward as just getting a ball in a ball thrower and going to the park. Delve into that. I will talk about moving training into the real world, because that's often a real sticking point. And I know people get stuck because it seems so difficult when you don't know where the prey is going to be. And that, for people, is a real sticking point. So we're going to cover quite a lot about prey in the real world. Some impulse control training, just a little bit of impulse control training. And a little bit of work to help people keep their dog in an area. Because often it's useful if they will stay closer to you rather than be on the horizon. So that's really most of the class. I think, so, people who should sign up. I actually think everybody with dogs needs to know this stuff. It's so fundamental to them. I mean, unless for people, some people will maybe have a dog that's absolutely no interest in prey. And it probably wouldn't be helpful for them now.

But the chances are, if they keep on having dogs, it'll be, this content would be interesting for them with another dog down the line. This is, it's really fundamental stuff. And a lot of, and the information isn't widely available. At least not, not in the pet dog world. You know, with Koolin, my collie cross. Now, he was a collie cross. Had he been a cocker spaniel, I could have, my work would have been much easier. Because I would have taken him to a gun dog trainer. And they would have understood him. And they would have told me how to understand him. But because he was a collie cross, I didn't have access to that. And so most people don't have access to somebody who could explain that. Like, what their dog's getting out of things to them. And that's why I've got this, like, that's why I spend so much time, like, researching it. And looking at it. And thinking about it. And studying it. Is because it's not, it's not often. The information's not always easy to come across. So, yeah. Everybody, really, I think, would benefit. But certainly people whose dogs are having problems with their dog's interest in prey. Definitely, they'll get something out of the class. Excellent. Any final thoughts? Or maybe a key point you want to leave listeners with? Absolutely. Yes, I do. So, I would really encourage everybody listening to see prey-based behaviors as a great way to build a stronger working relationship with your dog. And to get a better understanding of your dog. I'd encourage you to look at it like that. Rather than considering those kind of prey-based behaviors just to be an irritating behavior problem. So, that's my final thought. Fair enough. And probably, you know, maybe not a surprising thought based on where you're coming from. But a useful one to kind of think about, right? That, like, these behaviors that we often think are not ideal can actually be part of the picture in building a stronger relationship. And I think that's a great reminder. A hundred percent. I think, I mean, the problem I had with Cullen came from me not at all understanding what he was getting out of things. And so, what I became to him was a real drag. I was just that person stopping him doing what he wanted, what he felt he needed to do. And our relationship really suffered until I learned how to understand what he wanted. Our relationship just was never as good as it could have been. And without me doing all of that learning, he would have been an old dog who was on a lead. And frustrated about, you know, he would have spent a lifetime being frustrated. So, it is, to me, not an irritating behavior problem anymore.

Cullen very nearly, you know, I nearly gave up being a dog trainer because of Cullen because it was so difficult. So, a hundred percent, I considered it to be a deeply irritating behavior problem for a long time. But then, once I understood it and I started to learn about it, like, I changed. And now, like, this is a great way to get a better working relationship if you just understand what the dog wants. It's all much easier. And, of course, now with Wren, like, I love going out with her. And she's got so much drive that I was a bit worried when she was a puppy that, you know, I was going to completely just drop off her radar. But, actually, we've got a really good working relationship. And, you know, we do lots of things together. And going out with her is just so interesting and exciting to me. And that's why I've got another one. Another same sort of dog. So, to me, it's just, it's a great way of building a stronger working relationship. And as long as you do that, it's all excellent. Awesome. All right. Well, thank you, Tracy, so much for coming on the podcast. No worries. Thanks for having me. And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with Shadeway Zal to talk about location-specific markers. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Thanks again for tuning in. Happy training. Happy training.