E161: 루시 뉴턴(Lucy Newton) - "트래킹 훈련"

Absolutely. To kind of start us out, can you remind us all who the dogs are that you share your life with right now and what you're working on with them? You want the permanent ones or the temporary ones? Might as well give me a while. Yes, I have seven dogs. Like you mentioned in the intro, I train service dogs. I usually do three to four service dogs at a time and then place them with veterans. So right now, I have three dogs that are in here for training. And then I share my life with four additional dogs that are permanent residents. My oldest dog is 11 and a half. Steel was my retired police dog. And then I've got two Dutch shepherds, one that's eight that I've done mostly competed in Schutzen with her. And she's also done tracking. And then I have a young Dutch shepherd that's one year old that I'm hoping to do Schutzen with. And then I have a, he's always last. He's always the stepchild. Jack's the four-year-old Rottweiler. And sort of, I have a mix of accidental and on-purpose dogs. The one-year-old dog is sort of my on-purpose dog. Jack's is a little bit the accidental dog that ends up staying with me. So he sort of does, he's sort of a master of all things. He kind of does a lot of my demo work for, you know, some of my classes and stuff, but mainly I'm doing tracking with him, thinking about doing Schutzen with him. And I just trained him to find truffles because, you know, my, you know, permanent dogs, one of them has to have a real job. So he just learned how to find truffles for his outlet. And then I have the three service dogs that are living with me as well. Awesome. So I think last time you were on the podcast, it was a while ago now, but we kind of talked about your background and a little bit about tracking. Today, I want to kind of do a deeper dive into all things tracking to kind of start us out. I know nose work is kind of really ballooned in popularity lately. So how do tracking and nose work kind of differ? And is there overlap beyond, you know, kind of just being sports where dogs use their nose? You're correct. The sports where dogs use their nose, but where they differ probably, I mean, where they're the most similar probably is that in both aspects that we're, it's a sports where we're not really teaching the dog the actual task. Most of the other sports that we do, there's some genetic predispositions for it, obviously, but a lot of it, a lot of different sports thinking like obedience and agility, especially that we're sort of teaching the dog to do tasks that they wouldn't necessarily

do even close to similar to what we're asking for, you know, without training. Whereas really going with nose work and tracking, they already have the genetic predisposition for it. And they sort of have the, they have the skill for it. What we're doing is kind of setting up the environment so they can hone a skill that they already have really genetically as being dogs. Within that group, of course, there's some dogs that are a little closer to the genetics that, you know, are going to make them excel at it. But every single dog that we have, you know, is capable of doing, you know, that type of behavior using their nose to find something. So that's where the similarity would be. There's a little bit of a difference in the environment and what we're asking them to do. Really, for more nose work, you're asking to search a blank area, come across scent, and then follow that scent to the source of the odor. So that distance that they're following that scent is a lot shorter. Whereas in tracking, you're kind of starting them at the point where there is scent and asking them to follow that basically that line of scent for a long distance. Does that make sense? What are they searching for in tracking? That's one of those, you know, dog trainer arguments that you can sort of debate. So you're probably the best, you know, tactful answer, you know, that's not going to, you know, get, you know, people in an uproar is some combination of the crushed vegetation, whatever the surface disturbances that we place on the ground when we walk, and also whatever scent that we leave behind as we walk to. And it's probably some combination of those two different types of styles of tracking emphasize one over the other, depending on what type of behavior they're trying to shape in the dog and what kind of style you want the dog to track in. But some combination of those two things is that was what the dog is following. Do you use the same, like you mentioned the scent kind of that you leave behind, do you use the same types of scents that they use in nose work or are they, are they completely different? No, it's completely different because in nose work, you're looking for a specific odor that's been placed out, like whether it's birch or, you know, specifically to whatever that, you know, nose work venue is. Whereas with tracking, they're just following the path that that person left that walked on the ground. So it's person-sent, it's human. Yes, exactly. Gotcha. So what does it look like when you talk about a competition for tracking?

What's actually being judged and what is that, like, what's it look like in terms of setup? It kind of varies depending on what type of tracking competition. The courses that I teach, I focus mainly on AKC type of tracking. Um, CKC, which is the Canadian Kennel Club, similar type of setup with some small differences. Um, and then we have a very large group of people in Australia, Australia that pretty similar. Their competition is laid out a little bit different. They have different levels than we have. Um, but sort of the basics set up for all the types, you know, that I teach classes for, you have a designated starting point to a track. So you bring your dog up to the starting point of that track, start your dog on the track, and the dog follows that track from that point, you know, to the end. Majority of the time, there's articles along the way that the dog has to indicate, has to stop and find. Um, some, the Australian people in some levels, they have a person at the end, but for the majority of tracking competition, you're just finding the articles. You're not really finding that person that laid the track and is waiting at the end. As, you know, different levels of tracking, there'll be different challenges to that layout of that track, whether there'll be specific types of turns, you know, was it a 45 degree turn versus a 90 degree turn? Number of turns, the length of the track, the difficulty of the terrain challenges along the way. Those are the things that will sort of increase in difficulty as the levels of, of competition go up. So somebody is kind of just looking to get into the sport. What kind of equipment do they need, you know, to get started to kind of explore the topic? It's pretty minimal. Um, generally want to have, you know, a tracking harness. Some of the harnesses that are sort of designed for everyday wear or no pull harnesses. We want something that dog can, can move pretty comfortably in, um, and can actually pull a little bit and have enough, you know, shoulder movement. But, and even that's not necessarily, you know, a critical piece of equipment if, you know, say people can't get their hands on it now because, you know, whatever's going on. Um, but, but, you know, there's, there's workarounds for that, but that's really it is, you know, six foot, 10 foot, we should have harnessed. Um, I use targets on the track. So I use kind of little foam squares that we kind of place at intermittent levels, um, spacing on the track. Um, those, you know, we usually get those at craft stores like, you know, Michael's or something.

But even that I've had used, people use, you know, squares of cardboard or I originally, when I first started, I was using little tiny, like butter dish lids. Um, the only reason I went to the craft things at Michael's is because I couldn't eat that much butter, um, but, you know, so there's, there's, it's not, you know, it's good to have, you know, the, the, the right things is kind of a reason for why I'm using them, but, you know, we can certainly improvise, but you're pretty minimal. Um, and then generally most of the time we're using some food on the track, um, just to, just to really kind of get the dogs going and make them, you know, you want to have it sort of intermittently. I don't want them just eating in a line, but same thing as, you know, you would do a rate of reinforcement for teaching other behaviors. That's where I would be putting the food on the track is, you know, at a rate of reinforcement on the track. With the world kind of being, uh, shut down right now, I've got to ask, does that make it easier or does that make it harder to work on tracking? What kind of spaces are we talking about for the early phases? It's definitely sort of a, uh, more social distancing friendly sport. Um, it's, you know, a little bit of, you know, you're kind of, people are generally doing it on their own. Um, to begin with, you're laying your own track at the beginning. It's perfectly okay to lay your own track. Um, later on, you'll want to have somebody lay a track for you, but the majority of, you know, my competition tracks for a variety of reasons, I generally like to lay them myself. Um, so there is that, um, you, you do need some access to some good grass, um, sort of want, you know, sort of an ideal type of grass, not too long, not too short, um, a little bit fussy about grass, just because that's the environment that you're shaping this behavior. Just like as if you were teaching agility, you want to be fussy about, you know, the right equipment and being able to adjust your equipment and position it properly. Usually you want to have the right kind of grass. So you're really shaping a behavior that you, you know, you're want to get out of the dog. Um, so a little bit fussy about grass, but you know, we can work with a variety of different things. Um, so that's probably the biggest challenge right now is if people are sort of in an environment that they can't get to any grass, we don't need tons of grass starting out. Um, really when we start the, the foundation class, they're putting down 30 targets that are one step apart.

You know, and then they'll increase that to one and two steps apart. So it's a pretty slow progression. We had a nice clean movement down the track for that short segment before we increase distance. So we don't need acres and acres of, of grass. Um, but they do need a little bit of, of access to that. And I have decided personally that driving to tracking that counts as exercise and walking your dog. So my definition, I'm going with it as long as there's not other people around, then, then I'm, that's what I'm going to do. Fair enough. Um, I think when, uh, when most people kind of think about tracking, right, they sort of picture that finished behavior. Uh, but I'd imagine like any sport to train it really well, you need to break it down into pieces that then you train individually and you gradually kind of increase the difficulty as you go along. So looking at that, what are kind of the first pieces that we're talking about training here? We're really, like I said, we're not really teaching the dog to do the behavior. We're treat, teaching them that that track has some value to them. Like say a dog or, you know, a wild carnivore that's hunting for its meal knows that the scent of a rabbit, you know, or deer track or whatever has some value because at the end of it is, you know, the reinforcement, you know, they're good. They get their meal. So we want to, you know, we've all seen all of our dogs find a, you know, interesting scent on the ground and shuffle after it. You know, they just, that's what they do. Um, so we're teaching them that that specific track, whether it's crushed vegetation or human scent or some combination that has some value to it. So, and, and also eventually what we're doing is really creating value for those articles. I really want, you know, the dog following the track, but the dog's following the track to get the reinforcement, which I want to be the articles. I want to create a lot of value for the articles. So that's what they're seeking. Um, is that, that article along the track, I'm going to set them up to do that behavior in a way that I want them to do to meet the requirements of, you know, a sport rather than what they would just do naturally if they were hunting for something. Um, but that's that first step is really putting down those targets, you know, and that food on the track and basically teaching them that track has value. And I want them to start using that track as a way to, I would say kind of to cheat, to find the articles. You know, I want that to be the dog going, Hey, I figured this out.

If I follow this path of sense, that helps me find the articles. Um, so that's why I'm really kind of a lot of emphasis on value for the targets and then value for, for the articles following that path to get that, you know, reinforcement. That's something that's valuable to them. Do you have to train an indication separately on the article? You depends on what, what sport, what venue you're working. AKC requires an acknowledgement of the article, um, which is pretty vague. I'm just thinking that. Yes. Which is good and bad. Um, I like to have sort of something that's pretty strong. Like, you know, I generally, for my dogs, I teach them to down on the article because the stronger that behavior is then, you know, in times of distraction or confusion, I'm still going to get what the AKC calls an acknowledgement. Like if they don't down, they'll stop and stand over it and it'll still be okay. Um, so, but there's no, they just have to have some acknowledgement of it. You know, they have to just, you know, you can't spot it and, you know, say they found it. They have to have some behavior that somebody sees if it's stopping and, you know, pushing it with their nose. Then as far as AKC is concerned, then they're okay with that. What kind of tracking then do dogs kind of find easy? I know you talked about, you know, starting with an easier track and then kind of building it up. And if you could talk just a little more about how you do that, like how do you gradually work to make things harder? Especially since we can't smell what they're smelling, right? So we don't really know necessarily what's obvious versus what's not for them. Right. And that's why foundation is so critical. Um, and it kind of really want to have sort of really have pretty methodical tracking early on. I want to lay this really solid foundation because when the track becomes like, if you say for like a variable surface tracking test, it can be three to five hours old, um, and over a variety of surfaces, then I kind of really have to trust the dog because he's the expert and he knows where the odor is and I can't be deciding whether he's right or wrong. Um, so the best way to prepare for that is to have that foundation really, really solid. And I know on these tracks where I've got a really good idea where the, where the track scent should be, um, in these foundation tracks where there's not complexity to them. The track scent should stay really close to the track. Um, that I have a dog that's really very precise because once you get to the level where there's a lot of complexity, you, like you said, you don't know.

So you have to just take your hands off and go, okay, you're, you're on your own. You're the expert here, you know, and you need to self-teach yourself how to do this. There is some level of knowing how to set up tracks, you know, knowing how to set up the track so that you are honing that skill for the dog, but you don't have a lot of power in controlling things as far as going, oh no, it can't go that way, you know, and really sort of limiting the dog's environment because you just don't know. Can you talk just a little bit more about setting up the track? What do you mean by that? I know you just kind of started off earlier where, okay, the targets are, you know, a step apart. So how do you get from there to the multiple services and the complex stuff and the aging and all that? One thing at a time. Well, you don't necessarily have to master one. You need to like have a plan going out and set up your track. You really want to lay a really good foundation. And that's, um, you know, I sort of aim towards, you know, my initial foundation class of really sort of prepping people for, you know, the AKC TV, you know, tracking dog test, um, which is, you know, not particularly heavily aged, does not have a lot of terrain challenges to it. Um, has 45 and 90 degree turns. I want really precise, you know, performance on that before I sort of move the dog, you know, onto different levels. But really with everything else, as I'm sort of adding it in, it's a little bit, if you think about like with other training, you're sort of, I want the challenges to sort of be background noise. So like the same thing as if I'm doing obedience and I'm going, well, my dog's really good, not distracting environments. I'm going to start adding a distracting environment. I want to do that in a way so that that's not, you know, some big thing that the dog has to deal with. The same thing with tracking, I'm going to start putting obstacles on my track. They're going to be little pretty simple. Oh, we're just going to go through a ditch or, you know, over some, I want all that to be, be really be background noise. So that as I add that in, um, the dog doesn't even really kind of think about it, you know, want it sort of under that threshold, just as if you were adding in complexity to any other type of behavior that you're training. So you kind of mentioned earlier the, you know, one step. Part targets. Um, what are those first couple of steps? Like if you had a brand new dog, like where do you, I mean, how do you even give them an idea that the targets have some value for them or like, how do you, what's like that

first training session look like? You know, it can be messy for the first couple of times. Um, I'm not going to say it's not, um, depending on the dog, but, and I've had all, you know, the whole range, you know, I've had like the ones that get it the first try and I've had one of my best tracking dogs. I honestly, I will admit that I kept at it for a really long time as a science experiment to see if he would ever get it. Um, cause he really was frantic and his thing was he was a Malinois where he just wanted to go. And once he found out there was food on the track, it clearly was, you know, 40 feet down the track in some directions, you know, which may not have been the direction of the track. Um, so yeah, with him, I just pursued for, you know, for a long time, just really to experiment and go, well, is he ever going to drop his head and settle in and be a tracking dog? Um, and I have to say that he was placed with a state police. I actually placed him cause he was such a good dog. Um, you know, and he's like a SWAT tracking dog now, but it was just like, I mean, like embarrassing childhood stories about him, but, um, but really it's, they're so close together because we want the dog to, we want as minimal input from the handler as possible other than just holding them in that line of targets. So just putting 30 targets down one step apart and the dog mostly is going to come up and eat the food off the first target and look at the owner. Like that was great. Do you have any more? Um, but because the targets are so close together, you know, with a couple of him, you know, there's, you know, when they sort of get ignored by the owner, you know, and then they sort of drop their head and check that target again, see if there might be more food on it. Our hope is that they grab that second one. And then once you get into a rhythm, you know, they realize that there's a row of them. We don't want the targets to be completely visible. That's why I'm fussy about the grass. They can see them when they get to them, obviously, so they can eat the food readily, but we don't want the grass to be so short that they're just visually going from one target to the next. Um, but that's, yeah, we'll spend, you know, a fair, you know, the first probably week with those targets, you know, one step apart. Depends on the dog. If they progress faster, then we increase the spacing. It also depends on the size of the dog. One target step apart for, you know, a dachshund is different than one step apart for, you know, a great Dane. Right. So there's some of that adjustment too, but we want to just get them.

That's really our first goal is them realizing that there's food out there and it's in a straight line. And then we can start adjusting with the spacing of those targets. So you kind of specifically called out the grass again in there. And I'm, so I'm just curious, like, what is an idea? What are we talking about here? Just tall enough to hide the targets in the grass? Is that basically what you're looking for? Yes. I don't want to hide them so that like, if you walked over, you couldn't see them. If I laid out 30 in a row in a straight line and you knew which direction it was going, you might be able to see like the first two, you know, two or three, but you couldn't look down the whole track and see 30 laid out in a row. And we can work around that a little bit sometimes with, with grass. We don't want really short grass because we want there to be enough scent for the dog. Dogs obviously can track on hard surfaces. They can track, you know, in dirt, you know, a lot of things that are short grass or no grass, but starting out, you know, with this foundation, we want to really set them up, you know, to shape a behavior that we really want a certain style of tracking. So we kind of want to be a little bit fussy about the grass and also not have them visually be spotting those targets. Right. So not the grass in my front lawn that I keep pretty short because the landlord says so. Yeah, exactly. That's the problem with lawn. We have a good though. Our, our classes, you know, we always end up cursing the lawnmowers, you know, people that find, you know, good places to track. And then, you know, somebody comes through and a lot, you know, landscape maintenance has to come through and buzz it right down to the ground. Yep. Yeah. Got to find out the day before the maintenance is supposed to come so you can get in to work that day. You do become a tracking field stalker too, though. There is that. So, you know, just as you're sort of like, I remember flying up and landing, flying into Detroit and realizing as the plane was coming into the Detroit airport, I was looking at the ground and looking at nice green fields, you know, and just thinking about, you know, like they would be good tracking fields. So kind of prepping for this, I looked over the syllabus for the class and I know you specifically call out start and end routines. So I was really curious about that. Can you kind of walk me through an example of a start and end routine for one of your dogs? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a little bit like, you know, with other things, it's not as critical

so much that you do it an exact sort of way as that you're consistent, that you're sort of, you know, really kind of cueing the dog in. Here's the start of the track. So I will instruct people to really sort of bring the dog up. I bring the dog up on leash and then switch them over to their harness, like right at the start of the track, because I don't want to put the harness on and hook the dog up as if they were tracking and then walk, you know, a hundred feet from my car to the start of the track because all that ground sniffing is, there's no track there. So I want to just be very clear to the dog, you know, here's the start, you know, just like with any other behavior that we're asking them to do. Here's the cue. Here's this, you know, the start article is the cue for the behavior and then have them, you know, take that cue and do the behavior. And then at the end, same thing, have a very clear piece of information, the dog that tells them that we're done. The end routine is pretty important because realize that when you lay that track, you don't stop laying that track when the track is over. So you put down the end article and then you walk all the way back to your car. We don't want to really confuse the dog by, you know, after that, when they, after that last article, they continue to track. Then, you know, I don't like to, especially early on, later on, it's not quite a big deal because they sort of understand it. But early on, I want to really collect them and move them off the track so that's not confusing to them. So we're asking them to perform this behavior and all of a sudden we're asking them to stop. But, but really that's the start and the end is just really those cues of, you know, this starting this behavior, you know, right here. AKC has an article at the start of the track. Some other venues don't have a start article. They have more of a scent pad. But same thing applies. You're just really sort of coming up in sort of a routine where the dog knows this is the spot where I'm going to start, you know, doing this behavior that I will get reinforced for. Mm-hmm. Do the, just kind of picturing this like in my head, I, first of all, I wouldn't have thought about the end of routine. That wouldn't have occurred to me to think about if I was, you know, kind of trying to make it up as I go along. So it's really interesting. Um, and then the kind of thinking about the start and competition, do they have, um, are they pretty tolerant of like giving you the time you need to like change your dog into their harness and hook up the lead and like all those pieces?

You pretty much have to be ready to go. So you'll, you'll sort of get ready at your car. You know, you're usually parked relatively close by, or, you know, you'll walk a fair distance, like halfway across the field or something to your start. Um, but none of it's this long process. Like usually I just put my dog's harness on, you know, at the car and have them clip to their collar, you know, have the leash on their collar and then walk them up to the start, you know, and then just move the, you know, clip to, from the collar to the harness. Um, and then, you know, it's more just that real quick, you know, think of like, you know, setting your dog up at the start, you know, for an, you know, an agility run, you know, you're just really the same, same amount of time, really. It's just very, you know, more of the ritual rather than a long process. Gotcha. Gotcha. That makes sense. So your foundation tracking class is on the schedule for April, as is your tracking skill building class. So, uh, that means registration is open until the 15th. Can you just talk a little bit about what you cover in each class? Who might want to consider them? Um, if there's anything that students need to know, maybe before jumping in? The 101 class is really just that it's the brand new to tracking, um, class. It's also tends to get a fair number of brand new to FENZ people, you know, within that class too, which is good. Um, but it's assumes, you know, doesn't assume anything. Sometimes we get people that want to go back and improve some foundation, you know, get to a certain point, um, and kind of realize that they're sort of missing some pieces. So to go back and, and, and put in a little bit of foundation always helps. Um, but a lot of times it's just, you know, brand new dogs, you know, a lot of times it's, you know, might be younger dogs that aren't ready for other sports, but a lot of times we get older dogs that, you know, this is sort of their retirement sport, which is pretty cool too. Um, I actually have a puppy in my class too. I really love it when I get puppies. Um, but, um, because I think it's just the best great thing for puppies because they're, I like puppies because they have not learned to look to us for all the answers. So I always like reteaching my puppies to track because they're just these little sponges of just like, Hey, cool. There's food out here. You know, I wonder if she knows about this, you know, they just, they aren't like really looking to us for information. You know, they don't, we haven't like really, they haven't occurred to us that we have all the answers yet.

So they're just really fun to track. Um, but it's just, you know, it's just dogs brand new to, to tracking. The question that I get a lot of that we want to cover is whether dogs can do both nose work and tracking. Um, and they absolutely can, um, you know, every police dog is, you know, trained to use a lot. Most of them are trained to find some odor substance and also, you know, to track. Um, they look very different to the dog and they just, you know, it's, that's where that start routine and routine, you know, really explaining to them the different contexts. But the only thing I probably wouldn't do necessarily, um, unless somebody has like a lot of time, you know, is probably start both things at the same time. Um, you know, I probably wouldn't go nose work 101 and tracking 101, you know, at the same time, unless you're like me and this is all you do 24 seven. And then you could space it out of the course of the day enough that it would look different, but it's probably easier just to, to focus on one. Um, so that's a 101 is just brand new to tracking, you know, um, and then skill building is kind of the, there's 101 and 102. And then those both have, you know, lectures involved and, you know, um, you know, we're sort of progressively adding things as we go along through those two classes. So 101 will be in April and then 102 will be in June. And then the skill building was kind of, I think it was my first set of classes where the students kind of just wanted to keep going. Um, and at that point, there's not a lot more lecture I can give because a lot of it's just increasing the spacing, um, between targets and just, you know, really working on the turns and making the turns, you know, precise. And, you know, so it was more just really them continuing to train sort of under my supervision is how the original skill building class sort of came in. So there's not really a lecture to there. Um, it's just them getting more mileage before they get turned loose on their own to continue to, you know, increase the challenges and make the track longer. So as kind of a final question, the question I've been asking folks is what's a lesson that you've learned or that you've been reminded of recently when it comes to training? I don't know if I can call it recently because it's sort of, because I do so many different types of training, like with my service dogs and I work, um, when I train the service dogs, the veterans with PTSD come and stay with me and train. So they're with me for a couple of weeks. So we basically teach them how to train their dog.

Um, and so I do a lot of different venues and different types of training. Um, and the underlying thing is that it's, I give the same lectures because the whole, you know, it's all, it's all shaping behavior. Um, whether it's, you know, nose work or tracking, um, we kind of sort of overlook a lot of times with the scent sports that we're still shaping a behavior. The odor is a cue, um, you know, bringing that dog up to the start of the track and presenting the start of the track as a cue for the behavior. Um, me setting up a certain environment to get repetitions of the behavior that I want is important. Um, but that's, that's sort of my underlying, you know, approach to everything is, you know, it's just shaping behavior regardless of, you know, what the venue is. Um, so when we really sort of look at it at that point and the same thing for problem solving, um, you know, I always tell, especially in my one-on-one class, I'm always telling them, you know, we want the track to teach, you know, to shape this behavior. We want the track to do the teaching. So our goal is to set up an environment that will create this behavior that we want that gets reinforced. Tracking is a little bit of a challenge because with the articles out there, um, the reinforcement or what's valuable to the dog, what the dog is trying to find is already there. So you kind of have to really be aware of how the dog went about getting that reinforcement. You can't withhold it because it's laying out there. So if my dog is, you know, casting around and spot something with his eyes and, you know, gets food or gets the article and gets rewarded on the article, then that's what I've, you know, that's what I've rewarded is them picking their head up and looking for things. Um, so we need to be mindful of, you know, what we're setting up, but the same rules apply with, you know, with tracking and with nose work, um, that we're shaping a behavior that we want to, when we're not getting the behavior that we want, we have to look at the environment and go, how am I setting this up? So, you know, I'm clearly getting this, the behavior that I'm training. I need to adjust it so that I can get the behavior that I want. So that's been pretty much my whole career of dog training right there. Um, cause I do a lot of different, I teach a lot of different people and I do a lot of different types of things, but I don't really change this. I give the same lecture. I just have to repackage it for whatever venue that I'm, you know, working in. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. That's kind of a, um, a good reminder, right?

That no matter what you're teaching, ultimately it comes down to the same kind of training principles. Correct. Right. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Lucy. Thank you for having me. Absolutely. And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with Sharon Carroll to talk about positive training in the equine world. Don't miss it. If you haven't already subscribed to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice. They have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Thanks again for tuning in. Happy training.