에피소드 12: 줄리 플래너리 인터뷰 - "개가 학습하는 방식"

But that's kind of where you start with freestyles, with an idea or some type of inspiration. And you go from there. And then we also just moved into the elite division for rally free after completing our grand championship last year. That was really exciting for me as well. That's awesome. Yeah. So I want to start kind of at the beginning. You know, I talked a lot about your history there. And you've accomplished a lot. But how did you originally get into dog sports? That was a long time ago. If I'm really honest, I would say it was about 25 years ago when I took my five-month-old border collie to a pet class. I was a new pet dog owner. And I watched one of the instructors do a demo of how many tricks his five-month-old border collie could do in a minute. And I thought, wow, I want to do that with my dog. I mean, I'm just a pet person here. But I saw that. And I was so impressed and so intrigued at what training could do. So that and having a great dog to start with got me really immersed into training. And my competitive nature kind of kicked in a little bit. And I didn't really start competing until probably a couple of years later in agility to start and then obedience. And both of those were rather short-lived due to my discovery of freestyle. I'd say probably in the, oh, I don't know, mid-90s at an APDT conference after seeing a freestyle demo. And again, I thought, wow, I want to do that with my dog. And unfortunately, there was no freestyle available in the Pacific Northwest or much really anywhere in the country at that time. It was just a fairly new sport then. And there wasn't really the luxury of any online training back then. So if I wanted to do this, I was going to have to learn this on my own. And because I didn't really want to do it alone, I dragged a few of my students along with me. And today we have one of the largest freestyle clubs in the country. And those first few students are still competing or active members in the club today. So that's kind of how I got started competing in general, first with obedience and agility and then really became enamored with freestyle. But I have competed off and on in a variety of dog sports, as you said. So I think I have a little bit of a competitive nature at heart. Well, I mean, that's awesome. It's kind of cool that you managed to really, I guess you could almost start a movement in that area, right? Like for the sport. No, I don't want to take that kind of credit. But I knew I wanted to do it. And I knew it was not going to be something I could probably do alone. Freestyle is not an easy sport to stick with.

And it really takes some perseverance to stay involved in it. And I just felt very passionate about it. And so anytime anybody would listen or anytime anybody wanted me to give a workshop on it, I would go. And I would oftentimes, early on with the club, I would give free workshops just to get people interested and involved in it so that we could have a group that could put on competitions here. Well, I wanted to make sure that I told you, you know, I watched some of the videos of you. And I think most of them are actually you working with Kashi on the FDSA website. Consistently, she looks so happy to be working with you. And even the other dogs that you have in the videos, they all look so thrilled to be there and to be, you know, performing. So I really was curious what it is or what you would attribute it to in terms of how you train or the sport specifically that leads to that. Oh, I love that that is what you noticed. So to me, there really isn't much point in training unless you have a willing and happy partner. And in freestyle, it's a sport where emotion shows through. And emotion is something that you want to convey. And for most of us, we want our dogs to be happy out there working. And it is, as I said earlier, it's a very difficult sport. And if you don't have a dog that's really enjoying it, it can be very, very difficult to progress in the sport. For me, really, the shift to really wanting a happy, joyful dog out there came about when I started using operant conditioning and shaping specifically with a clicker. I'd always use treats in my training. I primarily have always been a positive reinforcement trainer early on in obedience. I did learn how to use a choke chain, and I was quite skilled at that. But I did train with rewards and mostly lure reward training. But when I started using a clicker and shaping, it became a much more reciprocal learning process where both the dog and the handler have a vested interest in listening to each other. And that that outcome includes a sense of enjoyment and a desire to keep going. And I think, for me, having that experience of learning about shaping and clicker training and really listening to the other dog was very impactful for me and impactful about how I structured my sessions and what I wanted out of those sessions in terms of emotional fulfillment for both me and the dog. And I think the most effective way to build that is through positive reinforcement training. And really important is clear communication with that communication being a two-way street. For years, training has always been about the dog listening to the handler.

And I think it's just important even more so that the handler learn to listen to the dog. So I think just making sure you're paying attention to how the dog is feeling and responding in a session makes a huge difference in the outcome of that session and whether there is mutual enjoyment in that session. So I think it's a combination of both the sport that I chose and the techniques and methods that I choose to apply in my training. That's really interesting. And I mean, I'd imagine in something that's typically set to music and where really part of it is a performance aspect. Like in obedience, you know, precision is precision. And it's possible to get, you know, a fairly precise performance, you know, even if you're not super positive in your training. I imagine that's much, much more difficult in the sport where the goal is really to have it look joyful and to have it look, you know, really pretty. Yeah, it certainly can be. And that's not to say that there aren't freestylers that use or have used a verse of techniques. And to be quite honest, you can't always tell. The dogs seem just as happy out there. But for me personally, I really enjoy the fact that I know that what I see in my training is what I see in the ring. Um, and, and that's all about that, that enjoyment of working together and, and bringing that joy to the audience as well, because you're right. Freestyle is an audience participation sport, so to speak. It's a, it's a, uh, sport that's there not only for competition, but for entertainment as well. You kind of mentioned shaping and luring, uh, in there, but you just wrapped up a class on imitation of imagery. And I have to say, that's like such a fascinating concept. If you could start by just kind of explaining what that is for the listeners in case they're not aware of, of it and just kind of sharing how you got into that, that would be, that'd be great. Yeah. Um, no, I'd love to, uh, imitation of mimicry is, um, a form of social learning or learning through observation. And we've long known it to be effective in human learning, but it wasn't until probably the last 10 years or so that we've really seen any studies on its use in, um, dog training. Um, I first heard about it at a clicker expo, um, a talk that Ken Ramirez gave on concept training in dogs. And then, uh, further researched, uh, Dr. Claudia Fugaz's studies that she did. Um, and in 2006, she created a protocol that showed that dogs can learn these new skills and behaviors by mimicking their owners. Um, and it's her protocol that we use in class.

Um, also as fascinating is that Ken Ramirez has developed a protocol for dog, dog imitation and mimicry. And, um, some of the videos I've seen on that are just truly, truly amazing. So things that, that we didn't think were possible, um, now we're, we know are, and we're actually able to bring to more people now. It's, it, the class was really quite inspirational for me, um, because my experience of course, um, had been limited with it in working with it with my own dog. And then, uh, some of my live classes, uh, my students there in my live classes, we worked through it and, and, uh, when Denise asked me to do a class on it, um, I was really excited, but I wasn't quite sure what to expect. And I have to say my students in that class are just amazing. Uh, they, they have really shown me what this protocol can do and how truly capable our dogs are of learning some of these concepts. So it's been a really exciting class for me. And matter of fact, um, I'm going to go ahead and put it back on. I think it is already. Terry's added it to the schedule for August. And so I'm really excited about doing it all over again. It's so cool to watch. Yeah. Yeah. I think you've seen some of the videos that were on the, um, alumni page and, and, uh, they've really grown a, uh, drawn a really great response. So it's, it is very exciting for me and I hope for the students too, that are taking the class. Other than just being, you know, an additional tool in the toolbox. And of course we all want as many of those as possible, right? Like what are some advantages to, to using that as a technique? Uh, um, well, first off, mimicry is not necessarily suited to all behavior training. It's really best used for broad or more general behaviors, behaviors that require a high degree of accuracy or precision may be better learned through, uh, shaping or some other method or reward. Um, however, mimicry can be quite useful. And at least one study has shown that, uh, behaviors learned through mimicry were learned as quickly as they were through shaping, which really surprised me. I was quite surprised by that. Um, some service dog work, for example, retrieving items, turning on lights, opening drawers or cabinets. Um, not only can the dog learn these skills very quickly through mimicry, but once the mimic cue is in place, uh, even inexperienced handlers can teach the dog these behaviors with very little training themselves. So it allows inexperienced handlers to train these more complex behaviors much more quickly, which I think, um, is really quite cool. Uh, it can also give the dog, uh, the big picture, so to speak.

So in most training, the dog has no idea of what the end result is. Only we know what that looks like and, and the dog needs to muddle along and, and he may not even know that when we reach the end result, that is the end result. So mimicry allows the dog to know what he's working toward and may even help him to better able skip steps toward that end result. So it could very easily shorten that training process, at least the big picture, at least the broad strokes of that behavior. I think too, um, it, it forces us to look at the dog's perspective in how or what we are communicating. In mimicry, the only information you're giving the dog is your demonstration of the behavior. If your demonstration doesn't make sense to the dog, he won't possibly be able to perform it. It's really, it's, it's really no different than other forms of training. If we aren't giving the dog the information he needs, then it's not that he's unwilling to do the behavior. It's that he's unable. And unfortunately, all too often errors are blamed on the dog rather than our inability to communicate. communicate. So to me, this really gives us, um, uh, that, that perspective from the dog's viewpoint. What am I communicating to the dog and what, how can I make this more clear? And we learn that through our, through our demonstrations in the mimic protocol and how we actually demonstrate these behaviors. I think it's been very fun to, to see some of the students, um, realize, oh, wow, that demonstration couldn't possibly make sense to my dog. How could he possibly do that? So I think that, that's really, um, a really interesting thing is that we gain a new perspective, um, uh, on the dogs. I've also had several study, uh, several students tell me their dogs are more attentive to them. They appear more relaxed in training. Um, the process itself, the protocol itself is very predictable. And so it sets the dog up to succeed. Um, and for me, for me though, I think it, it really comes down to a connection. I think I have a pretty good relationship with my dog, but the emotion I felt the first time she truly mimicked the behavior that I had demonstrated was unlike anything I had ever felt before. Not only did I feel a different kind of connection with her, but I think she felt a different connection with me as well, or at least I'd like to believe that was what I was seeing. Um, so it's, it's, it's an amazing feeling that first time your dog mimics something that all you've done is demonstrated for them and then ask them to repeat it. Um, and, and like I said, for me, it comes down to a different, maybe a deeper connection

with, with my dog. Do you remember what that first behavior was for you? I do. It was a spin. That's awesome. It was amazing. I, I, I taught, went through the protocol of teaching her the mimic cue. And then I did my spin and I told her do it. And she glanced at me for a second and she did it. And I was like, Oh my God, it was very, it was really quite exciting. I get, I get a little teary thinking of it right now. I know that sounds kind of weird, but it, it really is such, such an amazing feeling. It's a different feeling than what I felt. I can't say that. You know, it's funny. The first time, um, I used, uh, shaping and had my dog offer something that I did not, you know, command him to do, because that's the term we use that give your dog a command. Um, the first time my dog offered something, uh, just because I had clicked and rewarded it, that to me was, was almost the same kind of feeling. It showed me the, the power that that technique and method had. And I felt that same way with the, uh, with the mimicry too. It, it really showed me what, what the power of this method could have. So I just think it's so interesting, the different ways our dogs are really capable of learning. If we take the time to teach them how. It is. It's amazing. It's really amazing. Um, it, it reminds me, uh, Ken Ramirez once said in a lecture and it's, it's, um, actually one of my favorite mantras. I keep it on my monitor. Uh, he says, we limit ourselves and our animals by assuming things aren't possible. And, um, that is so true. I think that it's so important that we keep an open mind to some of these techniques and methods because, you know, we, we don't know what we don't know. And, um, that's up to us to explore these, uh, techniques that can, can really bring out the best in our dogs and our relationships with our dogs. Now this session you're offering a rally free class, right? Mm-hmm. Yep. So I want to make sure we talk a little bit about that too. Uh, in the class description, you explain it as a combination of rally and freestyle. My understanding is you're the founder of rally free. So I'd, I'd love to hear kind of what led you to develop the program and like why those two sports, why did you choose to combine them? Right. So, um, I, originally I wanted to develop a structured way for freestyle teams to focus on their foundation skills and build their heel work and transition skills, um, primarily to better their performances and really to, to increase their longevity in the sport and then ultimately improve the quality of the sport. Um, since I've been involved in freestyle, I've, I compete, I'm a judge.

I've been teaching it for almost 20 years now. And I was seeing a lot of attrition in the sport. Uh, freestyle is not easy. And I would say it's probably one of the more difficult sports out there. There's a lot more involved in freestyle than just training behaviors. Uh, teams would get through the novice level and then they would really struggle in the intermediate class and they'd end up leaving the sport. In freestyle, you can train any behavior you want. Um, you have a lot of options and so you do, you train anything you want. And mostly that's the really fun, cool, complex, sexy tricks. So, um, and generally they didn't train any foundation in to support the complexity of the tricks they were training. So like, like any sport, freestyle has a specific set of foundation skills, but these skills, these foundation skills, I know when I first started in freestyle, nobody told me what they were. I don't, I'm not sure anybody knew what they were. It was such a new sport back then. Um, and, and even if we knew what they were, freestylers were so spread out around the country and there was no real instruction available to it, um, it, the information just wasn't accessible. Uh, and the information wasn't really given the importance and value. I think, you know, having foundation skills didn't seem as important because of the perception that freestyle was free and you could do anything you wanted. Uh, and I remember, I remember the, one of the reasons I wanted to do freestyle was I didn't want to teach my dog to heal anymore. You know, with healing was, oh my God, I want to teach my dog to heal. It's so awful. Of course, healing was taught quite a bit differently than we do now. Um, but I, I didn't really understand at that time how important heel work and positions really are for freestyle. When you say foundation behaviors, is that what you're referring to is kind of the positions and the positions, the transitions. Yeah. Those are considered foundation skills. And then there are certain foundation tricks in which all of the other more difficult, more complex tricks are more easily built off of. Um, as you know, that anytime, um, uh, we start building a skill without a foundation, it can be really easy to get frustrated in the training because it's not built on the foundation skill. The dog doesn't have any support for that, that skill. And so the skill tends to fall apart a little bit. And so as teams were, we're moving up, both the dog and the handler would start to get frustrated and not have that foundation to support the more difficult criteria. And those routines would start to fall apart.

Um, and, and when they fall apart and it gets frustrating, it's no longer enjoyable. And so as a result, the quality of freestyle wasn't really getting any better. And we were losing a lot of competitors. So rally free was a way for freestylers to build skill in their foundation and heel work so that they could be more successful in the sport and find more enjoyment in competing in freestyle. And in the long run, improve the quality of freestyle that we were seeing in the ring. And what I didn't realize is that teams from other dog sports, rally, obedience, agility, they were starting to participate. And I didn't realize that this was going to become a worldwide competitive dog sport with participants in, in over seven countries. I mean, I was like, wow, I was like, wow. I remember one morning waking up and going, how did this happen? I don't understand how this happened. This was supposed to be, you know, a fun little, you know, game for me and my students. And, and I'm not the first one that has put together these two sports in an effort to help freestylers or have more fun with rally. There are many instructors that, that have done this. Somehow I was able to, and I had the support of many, many people to have this grow into a worldwide competitive dog sport. So, so I'm very thankful for, for that happening, but really I have no idea how that happened. Hey, it was a lucky break, right? I guess, I guess. I'm sure glad it did though. I, it really, it truly has met some of my goals. We are seeing a much better quality of freestyle. We are seeing teams coming into it with a stronger foundation and we're seeing much more skilled teams staying in it longer. So, so for that, I'm really thankful. And we're seeing new people coming into the sport, coming into freestyle that maybe never would have considered it, partly because of the choreography and dance aspect to it. And partly because it is a difficult sport to understand the foundation for how to start training. And rally free really allows the new exhibitor, the person that just is considering wanting to get their feet wet and freestyle, but really don't know much about it. Rally free is the perfect sport to learn the foundation skills. Um, and then maybe ease into freestyle if you find you enjoy that. So, so I've, I've really actually been quite pleased at where we've gone in, in the last five years and, and how a lot of my goals have already been met with it. So. That's awesome. Hey, good ideas catch on, right? Yeah. Yeah, I guess so. Um, so I did want to ask you, you mentioned kind of in there something about novice and intermediate levels.

And, uh, as somebody who hasn't competed in the sport, I was just kind of curious what some of the different things are, I guess, that they look at in a competition. Yeah. So, um, for most freestyle organizations, the scoring or the judging is broken down into several categories. One would be content and execution. So content and execution would be, what do you put into your routine? Uh, what is the variety of behaviors and how well are those behaviors executed? What is the accuracy and precision of those behaviors? Um, another thing that is looked at would be, um, difficulty or creativity. How difficult are the behaviors that you're including in your routine? Are you using hand signals? Because hand signals, um, indicate lesser difficulty than behaviors that are solely on verbal cues. Um, another aspect of it would be musicality and interpretation. How well do your, your, uh, behaviors and your, uh, sequences match the phrasing in the music? What is your attire? Does it match the genre of the music? Um, we also look at, uh, transitions and flow. And transitions are behaviors that allow the dog and or handler to change position and or direction in a way that creates ease of movement and a, and a visual aesthetic or flow to the routine. And then, um, uh, Rally Freestyle Elements, which is the organization that I created that also conveys titles in freestyle. We also look at the, uh, teamwork and engagement between the dog and handler team. Um, how well do they enjoy working together? How well does the handler support the dog? And I think we're probably the only organization that actually looks at teamwork as a judged criteria. So that's something that's a little bit different from, from most other dog sports. That's really interesting. And you kind of mentioned something about the verbals and the visuals in there. I was really curious how much of the cueing is verbal versus visual, um, and kind of what the role of each is in the sports. Do you, do you want to talk a little more about that? Sure. Um, so in freestyle, we use three different kinds of cues. We use verbal cues and generally we like those verbal cues to be, um, not loud and obtrusive, but loud enough for the dog to hear them, but not so loud that they are, um, disruptive to the routine or distract from the enjoyment of the routine. In using those verbal cues, we're allowed to talk to our dogs through the whole routine. There's nothing like in obedience where you need to give one cue. In freestyle, you may give multiple cues.

Obviously, you don't want your dog, um, refusing cues or not responding to cues, but we are allowed to talk to our dogs the whole time. Um, and so oftentimes we are giving our cues, uh, continually throughout a routine. We also use subtle physical cues. So, um, my sweeping arm might mean for the dog to back around me or go out to a distance. Um, but we want those cues to be hidden somewhat within the choreography. We don't want them to be very obvious, like what, um, a lure-like hand signal would look like. And then we also use something called choreography cues. Um, and choreography cues allow us to teach new physical cues that we can then use within the routine as our choreography. Um, so they are physical cues that appear counter to a hand signal. So, for example, I can teach my dog that when I throw both my arms up into the air, that's actually a cue to spin or to take a bow or whatever behavior I attach to it through training. And I can change those choreography cues for each, uh, routine as long as I understand and apply correctly the process for putting new cues onto behaviors. But truly, verbal cues are extremely important in musical freestyle. They're probably the most important cues in musical freestyle. It's those strong verbal cues that allow the handler to include their movement and their interpretation into the ring. Um, if you're tied to hand cues, then you're really restricted in how you can interpret the music. And that's part of what you're scored on. But, um, having those verbal cues doesn't mean that we don't use some visual or, or body cues. We just really want those to be subtle and portrayed as part of the choreography. The, the goal in freestyle is to make it appear as if the dog is not being cute. That he or she is in total sync with the handler and that while the handler is leading the dance, the dog is a voluntary partner. We want, we, we want to create that illusion, I guess, that illusion of dance partners, not one of telling the other what to do. Um, if you've ever watched like ballroom dance, even though you know one is leading, it's really hard to tell because they're both so engaged in that process. So, so yeah, so we have, we have a lot of options in terms of cueing. Um, but we, we work hard to avoid cues that appear, um, lure-like or showing the dog or leading the dog into what to do. How long is your average performance? I mean, it seems like, like agility even, you have like signs out to help you. And I mean, you have to kind of memorize the whole thing in a freestyle routine.

Yeah, for beginners, generally a routine is going to be about a minute and a half to two minutes. Um, as you get up into the upper levels, they're going to go three minutes plus. Um, and these are routines that you choreograph. So you're actually memorizing them as you choreograph them. Uh, but make no mistake, it's, it's not an easy task to choreograph two minutes of behaviors. You're probably looking at anywhere from, I would say, 30 to 80 cued behaviors in a two to three minute period. Not only are these cued behaviors, but the dog needs to perform them in a timely manner with the music. So your timing of your cues is actually well before you need the dog to perform it so that he can actually perform it at the point in the music where it makes sense. So there's a lot to cuing in, in musical freestyle. And so, uh, it's something that I've had to learn an awful lot about. And it's something that, uh, you know, once you get involved in freestyle, um, it becomes a really important part of your success. It seems like that would be a really interesting thing, even for somebody who wasn't interested in freestyle to take a class on just because it feels like there's so much carry over there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think actually as at Mariah, one of the instructors I think is, is doing a class on cuing. So it is a, yeah, it is a, um, it's a, an amazing concept in and of itself and all of the different ways that we can teach our dogs to take our cues and all of, all of the different, um, uh, ways that they can read our cues. So yeah, I think it's fascinating and I've, I've spent a lot of time in my own personal training development, learning how to do that and what's the most efficient, uh, effective and efficient means of doing that. So I wanted to, uh, kind of round things out with the three questions I ask everybody who comes on the show. So first up, what's the dog related accomplishment that you're proudest of? Well, that's easy. Um, creating a venue that allows teams to really succeed and enjoy a sport that I love. Um, but if, if you're talking personally, I'd say that earning our rally free grand champion MCL title, I really did not realize how hard that accomplishment would be and how fulfilling it was to get there. Uh, I created it and I didn't realize how hard that would be. I mean, I had to work hard for that title. Um, and, and it was very, very satisfying to be able to accomplish that. Well, congratulations. That's awesome. Thanks. Thank you. So possibly my favorite question, uh, every single episode, what is the best piece of training advice that you've ever heard? The best? Oh, wow.

Um, so I've heard tons of great training advice. Uh, certainly something we all do, which is to make our training sessions enjoyable for all involved. Um, that learning doesn't really happen under duress and to keep it fun and light and amusing and enjoyable and amazing. And, um, I, I don't remember where I heard it, but, uh, a quote that always stuck with me is the criteria is joy. And if we don't have that within our sessions, um, then, then it's really all for naught. Um, that, and what I talked about earlier, Ken Ramirez, who said, you know, not, um, that we, we, we limit ourselves and our animals by assuming things aren't possible. Um, that hangs in my office because so many of the things that I'm doing with my dog now that I would have said weren't possible just a few years ago. So, so, um, staying open to that. But I, I, I think the one piece of advice that has really benefited me the most as a trainer, uh, I heard from, um, Hannah Brannigan. Uh, I bet she gets this a lot that she's, she's, um, uh, responsible for, for most people's success in their training. Uh, but for me really, um, she talked about where, uh, or being aware of where and when our dogs peak in a training session and not letting them slide down that backside of the bell curve. Uh, I am the queen of just one more. And that little lesson from Hannah has made me so much more aware of when it's time to end the session and how much that really impacts the success of that session. So, so that's probably, um, one that I have benefited the most from most recently. And that sticks with me. I try to remember that every single session. All right, where's my peak? Don't want to go down the backside of that bell curve. So it was three, but I think there were three excellent ones. That's awesome. Yeah. Sorry. Sorry. No, that's okay. There's just so much training advice out there, you know? That's awesome. No, it's my favorite question for exactly that reason, because I feel like it's, it's solid takeaways and you kind of, um, walk away with, with a really solid reminder or something. And I think those three tie together nicely too. So, um, so my final question is who is someone else in the dog world that you look up to? So you mean aside from all the great instructors at FDSA? Preferably. I mean, they're all awesome. No, they, they really are so passionate, so compassionate about what they do. It's, it's, I couldn't say goodbye without saying it's a real honor to work with them all and learn from them all. But, um, outside of FENZ, uh, boy, the list is almost as long.

I think probably Kathy Sudeo has had the most long-term impact on me starting from probably about 15 years ago. Um, Diane Balkovich, my hero in freestyle, uh, who taught me everything I know about transitions. Um, I can't leave out Michelle Pouliot who inspires and pushes me to do better, uh, every single day really. Um, and, uh, Cassandra Hartman, she's another really fabulous freestyler who is, she's like the complete package when it comes to training, performance, relationships with her dogs. Um, she's, she's just a real inspiration. All of them, super inspirational trainers. And I'm really, really honored to learn from all of them. That's awesome. Cause there's some new to me names in that list. So that's super exciting. Yeah. I'm always interested in more trainers that I can go out and look up and, uh, and read a little about and see what they have out there in the world. So that's awesome. Thank you. They are great there. And, and they all compete in various dog sports as well. So, um, you know, in spite of their current interest in freestyle and them being such great freestyle trainers, they really have a wealth of information, um, in regards to all different dog sports and training in general, you know, training is training is training. Um, and, and these folks have really impacted, um, how I train and who I am as a trainer today. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Julie. Thank you so much. It was really fun. It was really fun. And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. We have a super special announcement this week. You'll no longer have to wait two weeks between episodes. That's right. We're taking the podcast weekly. That means we'll be back next Friday. Uh, this time with Mariah Hines, who, uh, Julie mentioned there in the podcast to talk impulse control, positive proofing, and competitive obedience. If you haven't already, please subscribe to our podcast and iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have your next episode automatically download to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fensie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fensie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang and transcription written by CLK transcription services. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training.

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