에피소드 13 - 독특한 이칼라 활용법

version of a mea mechanical tools or equipment it's not solely dependent on U utilizing electronic callers right um exactly and individual goes on to say that it sounded like there was a conflict in the standing with this individual where they didn't believe that you can still condition the e-collar before implementing it in negative reinforcement which led to a few questions first being should you condition the e-caller in napoo before implementing it as negative reinforcement number two how do Bart and Michael recommend implementing the electronic collar and and then three is what is the difference between conditioning an e-caller and using it for negative reinforcement based off of the the comment that was seen on social media so given those questions and and that prompt I think that makes for a good discussion for us to kind of dive into what is the e-caller what are the applications of using the e-caller and hopefully this helps clears up confusion about only or or about the are only being uh a tool for causing discomfort and becoming an aversive tool as the the comment was made on social media yeah so that's one of the misconceptions is that Naple pole is just about the e-collar yeah like you said but it's it's far from that that's just like you said before e-collar is just another tool that can be implemented in the system of nabal Po correct right uh and the first thing was the conditioning of the collar right that was the first question I think um and the conditioning of the collar because people that's the one of the the problems too is people think of the collar as only on a using it on a higher level but they're missing out on the Precision of the collar the possibilities because that's the one thing with the color it's the most precise tool you have you know when it comes to tools precise and consistent yes like I said I think I me posted somewhere or I commented somewhere it's like if the modern e-collar is because it can has a range of stem from very low to very high and because it can be used at a distance right you don't have to be connected to your dog physically with a Lee or some kind of other you know thing is the it's the most precise tool to communicate with your dog in many different ways but going back to the conditioning the the one thing that I've heard a lot is that conditioning the e-collar with where they add it I think you mentioned they add it with um the mechanical tools to like behaviors conditioning to most people is using it as negative reinforcement with the commands that the dog knows Behavior so they tell the dog to sit they start the stem the dog sits they release the stem

that is what they call conditioning but because they're doing it on a lower level they're calling it conditioning yeah but conditioning for us is where you come out the dog doesn't know what the the the stem means and where you stem pause and then reward either with a food or with you can do with food you can do it with a toy right so that you condition the e-collar stem on a low level whatever the lowest you know the dog feels to mean a reward is coming so that's the stem leads to a reward but you can do the same thing with a pinch collar right right you can do the same thing with a slip or with a flat collar you can do the same thing with a healing sticks right but it's that the pressure leads to a reward that's the first step it's not adding it to the sit or the down or the here or the place or the heel or anything like that it's pressure leads to reward right right that's that's conditioning yep what are your thoughts on that yeah you're right and I agree with everything you said the it's interesting when you when you run into comments like this on social media it's you always have to go back to the definition right because this individual who says that oh in Nao the ecolar is only used and conditioned to cause discomfort and to be an aversive tool right again the quote was um believe when working in apopo the way you use the e-collar is for sure causing discomfort and is aversive um that that individual's definition of there it shows a gap in their understanding about negative reinforcement um because negative reinforcement does not have to be painful contrary to what some other trainers say it it it doesn't have to be painful it just has to be motivating right and motivating is not like is not necessarily painful like you know if if you change the temperature in my bedroom from like 72 degrees to 3 degrees up 75 degrees that might be too hot for me to sleep comfortably and I might take a blanket off right I might do something I might be I might be motivated to do something as a result doesn't mean you made my room 100 degrees you know in order to get me there there's a minimum level that can cause and initiate a cause to action right and that's where it's the same as if something is bothering you on your skin right on your arm right which motivates you to like move it away but it is not at a level that's painful yet yeah right but it does motivate you to to get it off like the best example is like a piece you know when you have like because I don't have any hair right but my wife has long hair so if I have a piece of her hair on me it tickles right it's like I want to I can feel it I want to get it off it's

annoying but it's not painful right right it motivates me to try to find it and get it off but it is not at the point where it's aversive and I think that the person that made the quote I think it shows you one of two things either they've never used the e-collar so they view it as only an the verse of tool right or they have used an e-collar but they've only used it as a versive tool right so it shows you their you know their feeling of how something is used and they haven't explored its full use I think right and it shows again it shows the narrowness of their understanding to to assume that the only thing that's motivating to an individual has to be at a painful level because you need to take a step back and take in a wider scope or a wider view perspective to assimilate information that there are allowances where lower level stimulus can create and precipitate action on on someone's part right because the dog knows hey this stem when it stops a reward is coming right right so now it wants it does want the stem to stop but not necessarily because it's something that's uncomfortable but because it leads something it wants right I mean it's not to say that pain cannot be a good motivator you can use pain and in C certain cases you must use pain right going back to like Animal Welfare Law but it's not exclusively res reserved for high levels of you know pressure yes that's right and and that needs to be understood and and that shows a glaring Gap in the understanding of the of theory of learning be of behavior and learning theory um in that individual um which again they may be an honest person and they may be trying to you know accumulate as much information as as they can or they might be someone who is kind of shutting the door to half of what's out there right um they're only operating within certain quadrants and and they they're not willing to accept or you know acknowledge the efficacy of the other 50% of how nature learns right yeah but I also though there are some e- callers out there that the lowest level is al already kind of high also true right yes also true so it depends on what um and that's that's that's why the technology comes in right and the quality of the collar and the range of it so lest we rehash and basically re-record our previous episodes into this episode for episode 13 let's jump straight to some examples of maybe some applications of the collar that might be helpful to people who are trying to learn how maybe they're stuck maybe the way they've been using the collar is not effective for their dog or a dog that they're training let's let's what are so there's there's a good that was a second

question right yeah exactly kind of leads into that so right what was the second question can you read that again yeah yeah yeah so the second one said how do Bart and Michael recommend implementing the e-collar and in parentheses mentioned I think there were eight or nine applications of the e-collar that were mentioned at Silver school so I I think it would be good to talk about those and because those are great ideas to if you've run into a dead end with your dog in the e-collar there are some other ways that you can creatively use that tool to to maybe potentially overcome a roadblock yes so yeah the first one and it's always the same from my first silver school to the the ones that are now uh was to you can use the e-collar to cut the drive you know but what does that mean yeah expound on that for for the the audience the drive is like it's basically like stop doing anything like stop everything you're doing um where the dog is it it's one of the the things that when people talk about the the uses of the e-collar that's probably one of the misused ways of using the e-collar right drive yeah which I don't that is kind of I think to use that it's it's there's not too many dogs You' use that on right because we are always trying to build drivve in the dog right right but we're not trying to cut the drive and the cut the drive is it's it's different than what people would say like negative reinforcement training it's it is really like taking the drive out of the dog where it doesn't want to do um pretty much anything is that what you would say or yeah so cut the drive is like stopping a behavior it's like a brake pedal action on the dog where you're trying to diminish the dog's drive for a specific behavior or specific outcome the the example Bart used in the last in-person silver School in March was the dog that chases the neighbor's cat you use the collar To Cut That dog's Dy for chasing the cat but he also you know mentioned it's important to understand that you know if the dog doesn't understand where that's coming from he might attribute the pressure or the the level of discomfort and Associate make that association with the thing he's chasing and it might make him more aggressive towards that that that thing or behavior which could be problematic um especially if in the situation where you then turn it off before the dog actually Cuts its drive and now the dog has been strengthened in chasing and it's been made more aggressive into that direction yes and the the thing with cut the drive though usually it's it's not as much in the stopping one Behavior as it is in stopping like just general right right like just

stop you know the stuff you're doing so and it is yeah of course when it's if something is used incorrectly you can have other you know outcomes and that's why and the thing with cut to drive is it has to be a high level where it's close to number two I think in the in the uses of the e-collar which which is essentially the the use of aversive stem for punishment of a specific behavior correct and that's the differ it's it's hard to differentiate but the difference aversive stem is to stop one single Behavior with high level discomfort right right whereas the cut to drive is not necessarily for one single Behavior more of the state their dog the dog's state of being right is it too too active right you're trying to bring the activity level down in all yeah areas of life yeah and that's why it's not really you know used that much right because we want more of direct like pointing the dog to something so you number two aversive stem and that is to stop one single Behavior and the dog is allowed to do anything it wants after that right stop stop doing one thing in favor of anything else the dog could possibly do yep the best the easiest example for that is the dog is digging in the yard the moment the dog starts digging it will feel that high level of discomfort and then once it stops the discomfort stops right so that it equates that discomfort with its Behavior it was doing and the only thing to turn that off is to stop digging right and I like the the added detail that you you share with the aversive uses where you say that the aversive pressure must continue beyond the discontinuation of The Unwanted Behavior so that there's no chance the dog misunderstands that there was uh anything but stopping that behavior that turns off the pressure right you want him to be well onto something some other behavior and then when the pressure gets turned off in the moment of that other behavor that's that's the key to the dog's escape from that pressure correct well the and that's the the if you look at mistakes one mistake is what you just said if if the stem stops before the digging stops right then like you said the dog could think the digging the continuation of digging stop the stem right and that's why you don't want to time it exactly when the digg stops you want to do it a little bit after so that stopping the digging caus the stem to stop right right oh the other thing is it has to you if you're G to do that you have to do it every time the dog digs yeah right hand of God style right spontaneous punishment yeah and the thing with the vers of stem is you don't speak you know yes that again hand of God it comes from

the sky it's lightning from the sky it's always present every time he thinks about digging and puts his paw into the grass it happens and then you know it's yeah and the the other mistake I believe that happens is that people try to gauge exactly how much is enough SP right they don't want to you yeah you can't try to go on that line you you can't try to you know tight walk tight rope walk that line right you have to go higher you're killing an ant with a sledgehammer right right exactly and but and the reason for that is one is you don't want it to be where the dog is like you know what last time I felt that I felt like stopping but I'll risk it again because I want to dig right you wanted to go like I don't want to feel that again there's no question I I don't want to do that again that was the bad choice and that's that's where it informs future Behavior correct and if you go higher in the beginning you will have to do it left in the future correct and you can even operate at a lower level in the future because they know there's potential for higher down the road if you if you if you do that yeah well hopefully you won't have to right because it'll be like I don't want to dig anymore yeah yep I mean it's the same you know it's the same thing you eat at a restaurant you you get the stomach bug most people will never go back to that restaurant again because it was such an aversive experience it's not worth the the risk is not worth the I had I had that recently oh no with not with a restaurant though but it was Food Truck Tacos it wasn't food poisoning I think I might have had like something covid or something but because I never throw up yeah like it's very difficult for me to throw up Ever from sickness or from you know like alcohol if you drink too much I I can I can go without throwing I can control myself right but what happened is that morning I ate a specific type of food that I usually don't eat and then later I got sick but it was not food poisoning because I've had food poisoning before I know how it is and then I threw up a few times later but then the next day I thought about eating that same thing but it was a associated with that feeling of being sick so I did not want to eat it right and that lasted like for a few days the association yeah right even though it wasn't direct it's a powerful I mean in the end punishment is not about the the pain that comes it's about the memory of the event right because like you I mean you mentioned that study that said elect electronic shock does not leave like it it does not emotional scars yes it doesn't yeah it doesn't leave those scars it's just the memory

of wow that was a really bad decision I I'm not goingon to risk that again right it's the cognitive memory that informs the behavior that hey last time I did this I really didn't enjoy life that much I'm going to skip it yep exactly which kind of leads into the next use of the e-collar is you know and it's discussed in in the school as avoidance training but to be more specific it's Escape avoidance training otherwise known as negative reinforcement training uiz the E caller because in the beginning you introduce pressure so that the dog learns how to get away from pressure and you do it at a low level so that he can still think because if you're getting a lot of pressure your ability to think diminishes as the pressure increases correct that's the difference I believe with Naple pole and other ways people use it is that that's why we do low is so that the do dog understands how to turn it off yes before we go to the higher levels because then once he understands how to turn it off and you go to the higher levels now there's less feeling of like what is going on yeah they're not frantic that they feel more in control of their own destiny with when they get pressure correct not helpless but I saw that in my first in uh because we do the the role playing games right in uh silver the new in in the when we did the silver in the Fay School especially like Bart and Michael do the rooll games now but it's you can't have as many people particip abev right is very very but we did it but I remember we had the the the tone on too and it was two students were doing it and with it was more of e- shaping but I remember the person that was doing the e-collar the tone he was holding it down and the other person got confused and what did they do they just stopped and that was because we went straight there was no learning phase in our role game there it was just jump right into it and try to get the person who was the dog right to shape them to do something with the e-collar but that was that was the point is when you don't have a learning phase the dogs can get stuck and they don't know what to do and what happens with a lot of dogs that's what happens they just freeze right right and it don't freeze necessar because it's too high they just freeze because they don't know what to do right right yep and again the value of starting at low level with negative reinforcement otherwise known as Escape right you introduce pressure so that the dog can learn to get away from it AKA Escape once the dog knows how to escape it down the road he'll understand how to avoid that situation that caused the pressure right so if he took too long to

sit or if he took too long to go back to his place or to the great he made the association that pressure comes 1 2 3 seconds later so now he acts faster in order to avoid the pressure that would come if he was slow enough right and hence the name Escape training which evolves into the avoidance training of the punishment or the use of punishment yep exactly because you've conditioned it also in the beginning to mean a reward is coming now the Hope stays high and they're like oh yeah I know I'm going to I know how to turn this off and I know that a reward is coming afterwards and that's why in level one we always reward because that's the level we're using the negative reinforcement and then rewarding every time so the Hope stays high they understand how to turn it off and then when it starts getting a little spicy they're like they're trying to now they're trying it's a game to beat it totally yeah and I think it's important to to know that like there's a lot of common applications on pairing the ecall to a dog or they call it conditioning the e-collar to the dog but I think sometimes certain methods don't always work with every single dog and so sometimes people run into problems and then they just think oh I just need to go higher or higher or higher right and and then that's where they start seeing more and more behaviors go arai in their use of the e-c call and they think oh e-c callers are bad because it made my dog do this and that well it's not it's not that the e-collar was bad it's that the method the e-collar was being used for or was not right was not perfect for that dog that particular dog 100% yeah yeah which leads us to the contact method yeah so the contact method is a method to use on a dog that already knows the behaviors well typically and and to add detail to that it's generally a dog that's been trained in popo style training correct yeah yeah so a dog that's been trained in poo it knows the behaviors it has motivation for the behaviors and now you want to add the e-collar to those behaviors what you do is you do it as a Nick like a momentary attack with the command so the dog knows how to sit when you say sit it's motivated to sit now you add the e-collar when you say sit you tap but you do it with every single command the dog knows because you don't that you don't want that to lead to another use of the ecolor right right um and the goal of contact method is that you can take a dog who's been trained in poo foundations meaning positive only training right they've only had treats the punishment that they've ever received is probably either ending the session or withholding the

reward right there's so there's been no physical or mechanical pressure on the dog they don't understand that language and jumping into it so using contact method it allows you to teach the dog to how to understand and deal with the sensation from the e-caller without losing the benefits of the popo foundation and then now you now you've introduced and added the the e-collar as a tool to eventually use as a correction when they fail to yes do yeah that's I think and that's what most people that's the mistake that most people make is that like you talked about language is they teach in the popo language and then they they all a sudden try to correct with a different language right which is the pressure but and the contact method lets you bridge the gap between those two Bart gave a great example um at the school where he he and Michael were talking and he's like yeah uh a correction um or Communication in a language that so Communication in a language that you do not understand is always perceived as aversive for example someone comes up to you on the street and starts loudly screaming at you in Russian right you're GNA think they're like cussing you out or something like that where in reality they might be saying hey watch out for the bus the bus is about to hit you right and they're trying to help you out or or they might be saying hey how are you or something like that but because you don't understand their communication it's perceived as aversive but when you understand right exactly and that's why when you teach in one language with positive reinforcement and then try to correct using some kind of pressure that pressure language is not understood right it's like you're you're teaching English but then try to correct in Spanish yeah and the contact method lets you bridge the gap right so which what do they say you're preparing the dog for the correction that will inevitably come right but you're also you're teaching the language of the correction so the dog understands when you give the correction what it means and what to do yep so it doesn't leave itself distraught or feeling shut down correct because it doesn't understand the language right you now to the application that I was describing is probably the most common use of how to condition how how people in in dog training use um to condition a dog to a e collar which is the pairing of a e-collar to a mechanical tool whether that's a leash on a flat or a prong collar or maybe a slip collar you start doing that um you layer the e-collar on top of the feedback that you deliver mechanically to the dog and then eventually you fade the mechanical away

and now you're just running the dog on E and now the dog has learn to understand that that e pressure in that context now has the same meaning as it would if you were using the mechanical tools yeah so that the people will use like a slip pinch collar or something or a flat collar along to to that it means something to the dog as far as behaviors go right right so the like the sit to pull up on the leash to make the dog sit or to pull on the leash forward to make the dog come to you or a slight pull forward to make the dog stand or slight pull down to make the dog lay down um or also if you go to the nap pole like tactile pressure you can same thing right if you teach tactile pressure like one of the videos I made where you know pressure on the shoulders means down pressure on the belly means stand and pressure on the butt means sit you can pair the e-collar to that so the dog understands what it means but and also par it to the leash pulling up or the bleach pulling forward and that is teaching the dog a language the new language of the e-collar to the old language that understands of the of the tools the other tools but that goes kind of to the Escape training too right it's it's kind of overlaps with that because if if you're going to keep the pressure on the leash the whole time until the dog sits then the e-collar stem has to stay on the whole time until the dog sits yes and thinking about it if you're thinking about it from the dog's perspective when they feel pressure like electric pressure paired with mechanical pressure which eventually Fades away the mechanics fade away the dog is interpreting the pressure of the e-collar to say do what I told you to do before the pressure came right it it typically means that you didn't do the thing that immediately preceded what they were doing before pressure came so if you say sit dog doesn't sit you leash pressure pressure up and then s stem pull the dog up eventually it turns into you say sit dog doesn't sit then you get on the e-collar the pressure from the e-caller is like hey buddy you didn't do it do the last known command that you were cued to do and that's what pressure is being processed in the mind of the dog they feel that pressure like okay what's the last thing I so to do I got to do that one thing right yep that's how dogs perceive it yeah it should be the whatever I told you is going to turn off the pressure yes and this method is is the the pairing of e-collar to Mechanical tools is valuable because e in and of itself does not deliver directional feedback to the dog it's only after you contextualize it with a verbal cue or a picture that the dog is more likely to

understand direction from the e-collar I would say it I think to be more precise it doesn't give the direction that you are intending because what happens if you put a eoll on dog that's never felt it before they're going to move away from that pressure yes right yes there so so that's just a little Nuance I mean yes I mean in yes that that is that is a true point but I think I mean in in the general scheme of things for for what we're talking about it um it doesn't introduce the pressure you or the direction you want but yeah like and so for example like one thing that I use like when I'm working sport dogs you know this is kind of going back to one of our earlier podcasts but one one of the things I use is you know there's something called opposition reflex right you know I think that was episode two of the full quadrant podcast if you haven't heard it go check it out it's a great episode but opposition reflex a lot of people use leash mechanical pressure to initiate opposition reflex I do it with e pressure like most people on the healing they put the dog the the Box on the neck where they want to push the dog into the Handler side but if you really want to make the dog addicted to keeping their like a contact position or like a certain position push them away from it and they have to fight through it to come back to it so you can utilize electricity to initiate opposition reflex and it can be a very good tool you just have to know you have to you know what your end goal is and know what's going to happen and then work within those constructs accordingly and you can get some really awesome results that's how I use opposition reflex in my healing that's and it's working really well for me and that's one thing with um like tools right the chameleon with the chameleon because it has the islands if you put uh a contact point on two separate Islands on the left and a contact point on two separate Islands on the right now the dog is going to feel from both sides it's balanced so it'll be balanced so it's not going to be like a box which which is only on one side or right or the other right that's one thing with the chameleon too which people don't talk about much yeah and you can manip you can adjust it and it's really like and the other thing is they can't get away from it if they get away from one side like some dogss know that if you if you have a single box here and you tilt your neck you break the circuitry and you no longer feel the stem but if you've got two here you break one circuit you're still going to fill it over here yeah because it it actually connects multi ways so can't get you always feel it

um going back to what we said too where the con the thought that automa using the e-collar is automatically a versu right and then what we said what I said about some e-collar brands are high just from the get go right even the lowest level is kind of high that's the other thing with chameleon is you could put you know you could put actually what like nine contact points on each side which would diminish even the lowest level which is already low right right so you could go on a even a very sensitive dog you could go down to the level where it barely feels it yep you know cool yep that's yeah good point so so far we've covered um the uses of the e-c color that we've covered have been cut the drive meaning bringing the total state of the dog down a notch or two right you you don't like their entire energy level and it's not a recommended use but it is a use it's it's it comes with the it comes with a caution tag attached to it right be use or beware um the second one being aversive stem right corrective or or sorry punishment for singular behaviors y yep moving on to three three is the escape it's called we call it avoidance but it's actually like escape and avoidance right or Escape training which is a negative reinforcement yep we just reviewed contact method training y contact method a tap with the command that the dog already knows with the cube that the dog already knows single electronic tap nothing else e e with the with the Q E with the Q E with the Q on a dog that's been trained in purely positive or positive methodologies um y has no former understanding of what mechanical pressure means the fifth one we just covered is the pairing of e to Mechanical tools so you're your your your ecol is it's you're basically classically conditioning EOL or to whatever the mechanics are of the tools that you're using essentially and that brings us to next utilization of an application of the e-collar which is uh de dog training right mhm do you want to talkg training huh have you have you done have you done training with the de dog on e-collar before yeah yeah there they're few and far between but they're out there there's different way there's a few different ways people use them and you pretty much I think it's like you pretty much have like three you're limited commands yeah right you can have a short stem like a tap means something Nick constant you can have a long constant tap or some people use like a long tapping yep like constant tapping to mean one thing and then you can have the vibrate to mean something also so so for me vibrate when I've done and I my the last deaf dog I trained was the the

dog's name was donut super cute dog nice nice couple had this dog I Ed the vibrate as the marker to come back to me and get reward so that's what I liked the the vibrate for was the vibrate was come to me get your reward I used it as the clicker that was the that was that death dog clicker so it became a clicker but it also evolved into a recall recall basically right exactly yep MH and then if the dog didn't come when called then I would start getting on the stem and the dog would come back back right so what did you use did you did you use each one separately or yeah youed if I if my memory serves me right with donuts um the the the constant pressure was a down stay was down the Nick was sit and the vibrate was the marker and the recall and then with the Martin system brand you can actually get a little bit more creative because they have different a few extra programs for stem you can have rising or you can have falling right and so the recall can also be you can utilize the decreasing stem or diminishing stem as the recall too because you start high if it or if you recall well you can't verbally recall the dog so if you vibrate the dog dog doesn't come you get on your diminishing stem and as the dog is coming they're getting less and less Sim as they come to you so it's more of a positive experience to come close to you there's yeah there's different ways you can do it and it's just limited by your creativity yeah exactly and it's it's the tools you have yeah it's all about training for the client right what are they going to be capable of and what do they need yeah but that's the thing you should have you should definitely have a recall you should definitely have a down yep a down stay and then the other one your sit is basically for a deaf dog especially your sit is the same as look at me right because so then they they have to look at you for them to give you for you to give them a command a hand signal right yep so yeah that's uh but then that's the thing then you're kind of limited um with that because of the the dog not being able to hear so you can't yeah it was interesting because this dog in particular it was deaf and it was very nervous so if you walked into the room if you walked into the room and it didn't notice you were there and it turned around it would literally jump off the floor because it got startled like he's like where did you come from right because it it doesn't hear you coming into the room yeah yeah it was a really cool dog but yeah we trained it and uh I mean the owners had a really it was great because that dog was a risk the problem was the dog was so fleety

like it it would get startled at any little sight any little movement anything that came up from behind it would just take off because it was such a nervous dog and so to to layer in the e-collar gave them that distance that longdistance leash to control their dog nice but yeah de dog training is another application of the e-collar uh what was next next one um separation anxiety do you want to do you want to describe that one um well they we didn't originally have that in our the first school uh I remember what but it was in the the next one I went to and then they always talk about it uh every school after that I think but it it's classical conditioning where you pair the lowlevel signal the e-collar to your touch that has a calming effect on the dog right so basically if you're you have your dog that may be anxious when you leave or whatever and you touching the dog is what calms the dog down so what you do classically is you're going to pair the stem associate the stem with you petting the dog so that would just be basically you st and then pet the dog stem and then pet the dog not continuous you just want it to become a signal but you could keep it you know longer but usually if I do that I just do like a it's not just a quick tap but it's just so the dog feels it right yep and then as you as once that becomes conditioned to the dog then as you leave when the dog starts to kind of spin up a little bit you tap the dog fills that and if it's been classically conditioned correctly the dog should feel those same emotions that come with the paired praise and verbal verbal contact or or sorry not verbal but physical contact yeah that and that's the key because classical conditioning just does does H I can't even speak it doesn't just pair two signals it also gives the emotional feelings state right of those signal or state the well I mean yes absolutely because it's the physiological response that happens as a result of that stimuli right like that's why the dogs were salivating is because the Bell preceded the side of the food and the side of the food caused the salvation and so the Bell took on that meaning so you absolutely have can condition a physiological response if you've done it well yep that is correct a lot of these do have crossover and there's a lot of similarities between some of these but they all kind of start in the same place but they kind of Branch out into different directions when you get to the end results yes definitely and that and that's the thing is knowing how knowing the uses so that you can apply them the way you need yes right in the the moment yep giving you more Tools in your toolbox so that when

you run into the dog that makes you scratch your head you have more to go off of than just the industry standard of like add e collar on top of leash pressure right yep and then the last one is e- shaping so what is e- shaping e- shaping is essentially it's it's your method of communicating to your sole method of communicating with dog to let them know uh it's kind of like a game of Marco Polo right like or hot and cold right you know you walk away from the target Behavior you get colder you start to feel the pressure you come closer there's no pressure right and then you kind of guide the direction of the dog into the behavior you want which is ideally shaping right you're you're shaping with the electric stem that the dog feels yeah and like you said that's the only communication that the dog is getting the only feedback that it's getting is the stem and again you you should you don't you should do it on a lower level so that the dog is like you said earlier able to think and able to say okay how do I what is this communicating to me what do I have to do right it should be at a level that is noticeable and motivating enough that it's like the the way I describe it is moderately annoying mildly uncomfortable that's that's the appropriate level for e- shaping where it motivates them to do something because they like they'd rather not sit there and feel this nagging pressure but it's also not uncomfortable where they can't think clearly to solve problems that you're presenting to the dog and it that's the that's the level that gives you the a very good outcome because if the level is not motivating enough then they'll just sit there all day and it's not going to cause them to do anything about it so you have to have it at a level that creates action yeah and I think the higher the level that's used the more experienced the Handler has to be right you can't somebody inexperience should not go on a higher level trying to e-shape because you're not going to get the outcome you want definitely yes and and to if you make a mistake or take a take it too far the risks of like I mean the damages that come from that can be really hard to work through not not that they can't be overcome because good a good trainer can overcome bad training but it just sets you back a few Paces uh in in your path and everybody wants to avoid that it it does take some master coaching to be able to know how far to go or how at to what level is the proper dosage um going to be applied at correct and we if you've done the silver school or if you are uh thinking about taking it Jason and I do have our gold school coming up in uh Texas Edinburg Texas at uh

k9's in action what was Marty's place k9's in action Right k9's In Action LLC I wanted to say k9's Yeah k9's in action nice place yeah really cool facility yep and that'll be beginning of October yes yep October hopefully hopefully still hopefully far enough into the year that it's not super hot uh but also still comfortable and good good dog training weather but it doesn't matter because he's got a super indoor facility so yep awesome so yeah if if you guys have questions you can always reach out to us uh if you can you can leave comments um on this episode uh and if we miss something let us know if you think we missed something or huh if you think we missed something we'll tell you why you're wrong we we'll talk through it and see like you know maybe there's always new things coming up um that you know actually this makes me training though right right this makes me think about there were a lot of Concepts and ideas in here that that were more deeply discussed in other episodes like we went deeper into those con Concepts in other episodes so if you're tuning into this episode for your first episode there's a lot of episodes that lead up to this one that are going to set the stage to better understand this particular subject on the use of e- callers right and how to apply them so definitely if if you're jumping in and you're joining in at episode 13 highly recommend going back and watching fortunately for you we don't have a 100 episodes yet so you don't have to listen to that many but highly recommend that you go back and listen to all the preceding episodes because they're all very instructive and informative and and we've tried to make a point to keep these very educational and and deliver a lot of value so hopefully we're hitting that um that Target you know let us know if there's other ways that we can provide better information for you um we're happy to do that so yep exactly um awesome well that was great great conversation Mike um good good good chatting with you and uh we'll we'll pick this back up uh we'll try to record again uh soon yep good talking to you Jason and uh I want to meet that puppy soon yeah he's he's a he's a good little puppy he's still a little sleepy because actually yeah you know we got him we got him um he's still young so he's a still a little sleepy um but I think he's gonna turn out to be a really nice dog really looking forward to it awesome so all right well hey thanks everybody appreciate you uh tuning in to episode 13 uh of the full quadrant podcast uh we'll see you next time yep see you then