E94: 올라, 안드레아, 사라(Alla, Andrea, and Sara) - "수강생 인터뷰: 도그 트레이닝은 여정이다"

were you R-plus right from the start? Have you always been a positive trainer? Was there something that specifically kind of got you switched over, you know, when you found FDSA, or how'd that work? Um, it was actually a little bit odd how it worked for me. I, in the horse world, I was in the positive reinforcement world. Uh, so I wasn't really doing any punishment or riding or negative reinforcement with them. It was all strictly, um, here's a food reinforcement, and what can you do for me? Um, but when I got a dog, I started out balanced, um, mostly because I didn't feel like you could, outside of a training scenario, that you could get the reliability that you require basically for life, uh, without, with strictly positive reinforcement. Uh, but that lasted a short four months, uh, before I found FDSA. And, um, I was really lucky to find FDSA early. Uh, and it kind of, there was no one moment where I said, I am no longer going to use punishment or any coercive methods. Uh, it was more along the lines of, but they're not really needed. And if I don't need them, why would I use them? Um, so the more creative, the more I learned, the more creative I got with my problem solving, including in real life, uh, and the less and less coercive methods I, I needed to use. It was a very, very natural, very quick progression down that path. So I know you recently, uh, started a blog on dog training where you're sharing some of this stuff. And for those listening, you can find it at the dog nerd.ca. Uh, and you recently did a post on this, but what's your favorite part of dog training? The fun part, the part where you get behaviors, the part where you can make progress very quickly and very fast and where the dog is very engaged and they don't know yet what they're doing, but they're figuring it out. And you can see that thought process in, in, in, as you're working along. And, um, yeah, my dogs have like, I don't know, a thousand behaviors started and probably three cues in total. One, one of which is go outside. Um, I think that's probably pretty common. I wouldn't be surprised. Yeah. I'm, um, I'm not a fan of everything that comes after you actually get the dog to do the behavior reliably. So all of the stuff that's associated with polishing. So adding cues, your proofing, your generalization, your distraction, your distraction work. I basically, I avoid it until I need it. Um, um, pretty much cause I'm practical. If I'm teaching something, I'm teaching something for a purpose. Sometimes our purpose is fun. Can we do this? Can I teach it?

Can I shape a new trick? Um, other times it's okay. I need, I'm going to need healing for the competition for the life of this dog. So, uh, we're going to do it right. We're going to do it right from the start. Um, so basically I go for high, high precision. Um, that's kind of my joy in training to see those precise behaviors form. Um, but not so much the, all the stuff that comes built around that behavior. Is there a way that you kind of address that in training or that you kind of get yourself to deal with that, even though you don't like it? I tend to set goals, uh, that incorporate those kinds of things. So for example, one of my goals is a real life competition. So I enter a trial not too far off, uh, and assuming that I'm reasonably confident that we have at least the basic skills to get us there. Uh, and then I go and I say, what do I need for, uh, to actually be successful in that trial? And that means we need to do some floor is lava. We need to do some proofing. We need to do some generalization. We need to go outside and train. So at some point we need to take a class. And, um, in order to meet those goals, I have to actually work on the stuff I don't like working on. So you mentioned floor is lava in there. And I actually don't know if I've heard that before. Do you mind just explaining what you mean? Uh, floor is lava is a kind of a thing I made up. It's, um, sometimes I don't want to go outside and I don't want to bring in distractions, but I still need to train and I still need to prove things. So what I do is I spread out treats on the floor of my training room. And then I do whatever it is that I want to train on top of that treat carpet. And, uh, the dogs have an additional challenge of, uh, not eating everything they're walking on. I like that. That's actually really neat. It's, uh, it's one of the double duty exercises that I do where, um, where I need to, um, where I'm working on skills at the same time as I'm working on proofing, whereas I'm working on distractions or as I'm working on things like that. It feels very in line with the other blog posts you, uh, shared a while ago, um, on kind of building complexity into the exercise or building difficulty into the exercise, even if you can't go somewhere else or, you know, up the distraction level in a different way. Yeah, exactly. As someone who's kind of taken a lot of classes now with FDSA, I mean, you, you have your, uh, FNZ dog sports certificate. So do you have any tips for other students for maximizing their learning either, you know, kind of tied to a specific level or just generally, um, you know,

dealing with kind of that online platform? Um, I have lots and lots of advice, but I'll try to be quick. Um, so learning for me is a social, is a social behavior. Um, I've never been a person who is good at online learning. Uh, I love the camaraderie that comes from everybody working together on the same thing at the same time. Um, so what FDSA does well and what works for me incredibly well and what I encourage everybody to take much better advantage of than most people do nowadays is the study groups. Um, use this, the fact that when you're working with other people, um, it's a lot more fun to work together towards a single goal. Even if you're working with, uh, two separate, with each your own dog, um, post your video to the study groups. Even if you're the only one posting, still post it because, uh, when somebody starts it, other people tend to follow. Find a buddy. If you, there's a specific FDSA buddy group, find a buddy. Accountability is huge, especially with self-paced online learning. Um, make sure that you pick classes that inspire you. Not necessarily, it doesn't necessarily have to be the thing that gets you towards your end goal. The fastest, but if you want to go down a different path, if you want to, if you've been working on obedience forever and you want to try something new, take a nose work class, just something, the more inspirational, the more motivation and inspiration you're able to build in yourself with regards to a particular topic of a class, the more likely you are to stick with that class and learn as much as you can out of it. Um, another little tip that I have is make sure that you optimize your workflow as much as you can. Um, and by workflow, I mean your video, uh, taking your video, editing, posting. So try different tools for editing and shooting until you find something that works seamlessly for you. Um, don't, I, I highly recommend KineMaster if you're doing editing or video editing on your phone. My workflow is entirely on my phone. Uh, I shoot, uh, edit with KineMaster and post either to Facebook or YouTube all right there. Is KineMaster a K or a C? Do you know? K. It's a K. People will look it up. Cool. Yep. I have multiple tripods, even at home there. I highly recommend having a tripod that's attached to a wall so you can just put your phone in or your camera in and press the button and you're good. You don't need to set up, worry about positioning, worry about being in the frame, worry about any of that. Preset your tripods. Uh, I've got a permanent, I've got a permanent tripod in my training space.

I've got a travel tripod that goes with me to classes. Uh, and I've got a floating tripod that moves around the training space when I need to take a closeup of something or if I'm going outside and shooting there. The key is to optimize your workflow for yourself as much as possible. I used to transfer, uh, my videos to the computer and edit in Premiere Pro and that's just way too cumbersome. Um, the more big program. Yeah. Uh, the more you, especially saving, Oh my God. The more you optimize the faster and easier those things will get. And the less of a big deal it will feel like to take video, edit and post, uh, to where you want feedback, which allows you to participate in that social part of, uh, of learning. And of course, get a wide angle lens. If you, uh, if you're filming indoors and you're filming on your phone and, uh, you're struggling with getting everything in, uh, wide angle lenses are cheap and good and useful. That's awesome. So to kind of summarize that, you know, the, the two kind of big pieces there were, you're making sure that people get involved in the community online on Facebook, um, where study groups and things like that, and kind of just to optimize the whole process in order to enable yourself to do that. Right. So you're not spending hours and hours and hours for the five minutes of training. Exactly. I'm huge on setting up antecedents, uh, to, to actually make everything work for you as, uh, as well as quickly and as easily as it can. If you have your treats preset out somewhere on a counter, training is as easy as reaching in and grabbing a handful and you start it's, uh, the less roadblocks you put in between yourself and training, uh, the more training you actually are able to get done and the faster you learn. I love that. I recently, uh, started working through Sue's levels with my puppy. Again, I just decided every night for dinner, every night when I feed him his dinner, that's what we're working on. Exactly. Absolutely. It just takes the decision-making out of it and actually makes it happen. And day by day you get progress every day, little by little. Yeah. It's kind of, it's neat to be able to see it too, because it happens more quickly when you're training more often. Yes. We're kind of getting to the end here, but I've got two more questions I wanted to ask. So do you have a favorite piece of training advice that you can share? I do. I'm a big perfectionist, uh, and it is frequently detrimental to actually making progress in my training. Um, so my favorite piece of training advice is that one session doesn't mean anything.

You can have the worst session where your dog blows you off or nothing works. They can't figure it out. You're making really bad decisions and it just doesn't matter. Don't lose the forest for the trees. You need to look at the trends. You need to look over three sessions or five sessions. A single session is, it's a single data point. You can't make any decisions going forward on, based on a single data point. Nothing is forever. Nothing is immutable. No mistake can't be fixed. Go, go out there, go train, make your mistakes. If you have horrible sessions, we all do. That's fine. It don't let it block you from, uh, from actually continuing to train whatever you're working on. It's not a big deal. I love that. That's really awesome. So the last one here, what's the dog related accomplishment that you're proudest of? I'm the most proud of the life that my dogs live, to be honest. Um, they have a very fulfilled life. They have a lot of enrichment. They have friends. They get daily brain work. They get frequent hikes. We play, we cuddle on the couch. We do sports, we do seminars and everything I do with them. I do with cooperation in mind. Lots and lots of creativity needed to problem solve all those little teenage moments that come up. But it's all done with the most amount of cooperation that I could possibly get. So we build habits of cooperation. And, um, they, they enjoy working and they enjoy their life and they, and I'm happy that I can give them a life that they can enjoy. That's fantastic. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Ella. Thank you so much for having me. Next up, we have Andrea Woodcock. Andrea has been taking classes at FDSA since December of 2013, after hearing Denise talk at an APDT conference earlier that year. At that point, she had been training service dogs for about seven years. And today she continues that work as the training manager at Dogs for Better Lives. Welcome to the podcast, Andrea. Andrea. So to, uh, to start us out, can you just tell us a bit about your dogs and what you're working on with them now? All right. So I have three dogs currently. Um, I have Vega who is retired and she's, um, gosh, I guess she's going to be eight, um, coming up here and she's a, she's a rescue. She's a loss of mix. Um, and she's been, she's been to camp a few times. Um, she has her CD and she's at the point where she's, um, she had some back problems. So I just went ahead and retired her. She got her team one. Um, and pretty much like her job now is barking when the neighbors come up. She lets me know when people come up the stairs and she kind of, um, yeah,

couch potato at this point. Um, and then I have Pixie who's a little six pound chihuahua terrier mix and she's, um, got terrible knees. So she doesn't do a whole lot other than sleep on the couch. And, um, sometimes takes part, part in the barking when the neighbors come up the stairs. Important jobs. She, she likes to, um, yeah, get up on the cat tree and eat the cat food. And what else she's also, um, sometimes I play around with team stuff with her. She's on the team page quite a bit. We call her the flying monkey. She's really, really fast. She likes to, likes to learn. Um, but I'm careful with her cause of her, her knees. Um, and then I have Gizmo who's, um, my young boy. He's a 21 month old lab. Um, and he's just got his team to, um, recently and he's, he's a lot of fun. He loves to work. Um, so he's the one that I'm doing my main stuff with hoping to get him in the obedience ring when he's a little bit older. Congrats on the team too. I know you said, uh, kind of before we got started, you just got it last week, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's pretty recent. So yeah, he is, he's a fun dog. He loves to work. He's, um, yeah, he just, he loves to work. So he's a lot of, he's a lot of fun for me. That's awesome. How did you, uh, you know, kind of originally get into dog sports? So, um, I've been training service dogs for a while, about seven years at that point. And I, um, decided, and I was, I think I was watching YouTube videos or something. And I had my very first dog, um, Sutton, who was this yellow lab and he was a flunk out from the service dog school that I was training. And he was, he was kind of a naughty boy. He had a bite history. He was, um, and at that point he was, gosh, he was seven or eight years old and he was, um, and I was watching these YouTube videos and I, you know, at that point I was training service dogs. I was trying to pick up keys and open the shut doors and do all these things. And I was like, I watched a YouTube video. I was like, that doesn't look that hard. I could do that. So I get my dog Sutton who was, he was like seven years old at the time. And he was, I mean, he was fairly well-trained, but he wasn't, um, definitely not ready to go into an obedience ring. And so I just started, I took him, started taking some obedience classes and having, you know, and he was pretty terrible. I think there was one class that I almost left crying because he barked the entire class. Um, and he was just, he was, it was rough. It was pretty rough, but I did manage to get a CD on him, um, after multiple failures. It was, it was pretty rough. Um,

you know, and it's, we got through it, but it was, yeah, it was definitely, it was way before I found FDSA and it was pretty, um, it was pretty ugly, but you know, he taught me a lot. Um, he was just, he was something else. He was a very, very challenging first dog for me, but yeah. And then after that, we ended up in nose work after I retired from obedience and that was his thing. He loved it. And I was so happy that I was able to do that for him. And he got his nose work one title and it was, yeah, that was his, his cup of tea. So I was really happy that I was able to find that for him and get him into that. So, so that was pretty, pretty great. What got you started, um, kind of in positive training? Have you always kind of been there or was there something in particular that kind of flipped that switch, um, for you? So I, when I very first started training, I got started in training, um, training service dogs. I was, um, working at a service dog school down in California and I, and it was all compulsion-based. That's how I got my start with compulsion-based training. Um, we did all force retrieves, all the dogs were on either prong collars or cane collars. Um, we weren't allowed to use food to train. And so, um, so no, I was not always positive and I trained that way for seven years. That was how I got my start. That's where I got my certification. Um, that's how, how I learned. Um, and we were taught if you're using food, you weren't actually training. That wasn't, that wasn't training. Um, so when I was, um, at one point I got an interview for a different service dog school up in, up in Oregon, Dogs for Better Lives. And I went up there for the interview and they use positive reinforcement training. And I was like, okay. And so I go up there for the interview and the interview went really well. I really liked the area. Um, and so when I got up, up here to Oregon, that's when I just kind of made the switch. Um, and I was, you know, and it was nice. I was really happy. I had, you know, the dogs were happier. It was just kind of a nice, nice switch. Um, and so then once I got up here, then I started like just kind of immersing myself in it and learning as much as I could about it. Um, and yeah, it was just kind of went from there. So, so yeah. That's awesome. I know from watching, you know, on the Facebook page and kind of like in the group and stuff, you've been working on your team titles. Um, we mentioned the team to, the recent team too, um, including you've been participating in that a hundred days of team

challenge that folks have been up to on Facebook. So what, what I guess led you to, to want to do team or, you know, to dive into some of the team stuff. Uh, how'd you get started there? You know, once it, when, when team first came about, like I've, I've really enjoyed it because it's kind of a nice way to take all of the aspects of obedience and bring them together. So it's not just the skills, but it's getting the dog out into a new location, reducing reinforcers and all of those, like as you move through the different levels, just kind of come together. Um, it's a really well thought out program. Um, and so I've, I've really enjoyed it. You know, I put the first team title I did was, is it, I got a team one on Vega. Um, and hers was difficult because she can't jump. So we eliminated the jump, which meant everything had to be perfect. Um, and so then, and then gizmo, I just kind of felt like a natural way to get him, um, get the skills on him was to just move through the team titles. So that's what we've been doing is just, he got his one and his one plus, and now we're onto, we've just got a two and now we'll work on the two plus and the three. And he's, you know, it's nice because I, you know, I'm taking him now we're working on the two plus in a different location. So it's making me take him somewhere every day and work somewhere besides our living room, which is great. So it's just been a nice kind of way to, you know, force me to take him somewhere and work on these skills that he already knows in a different location. So that's, it's, it's a nice progression, I think for, for his obedience. And just for folks that are kind of listening, who may not be super familiar with team, when you said, um, everything had to be perfect for, for Vegas, that that's because you can do, you can feel one exercise, right. In the, in the sequence. Right. Right. So she was automatic fail on the jump. Right. Right. Cause you just eliminated it essentially. Right. Right. Yeah. So what about the, the hundred day team challenge specifically? Have you learned anything particularly interesting by participating, you know, seen any significant changes and about kind of where that factors in? So the hundred days of team was kind of a monster that I created unintentionally. Um, so I started doing it on my wall, like just kind of privately. And I just started like the kind of just doing it to kind of promote the team program and to kind of, um, like just do it like for an accountability tool for myself. Um, and then what happened was it ended up, um, becoming like this,

I didn't, well, I, one of my fellow students, Megan Walsh, she was, she saw me doing it and she was like, Oh, I think I want to do it too. And I was like, okay, great. You know, go for it. And then I think all posted it, it was like, Oh, I want to do it too. And then she posted on the team players page and it blew up and I had no idea. Cause I just kind of figured nobody would want to do it. And then it just blew up. It was kind of crazy. Um, and so now there's like so many people doing it and people have like, are already on day hundred. I'm still like that. I started it on July 1st and I'm still on day, I don't know, like 88 or something. Um, but, but the thing that I love about it is, um, that like, I've been very adamant about like no rules. Like I don't want a bunch of rules around it. So like, just do it record, like just, you know, this is the day, whatever. And then if you skip three weeks, great. Just start again, like just, you know, okay, you're on day 87, you skip three weeks. Okay. Now you're on day 88. Don't, you know, it doesn't have to be consecutive. You don't have to video, you don't have to like, there are no rules. Cause if there's a bunch of rules, it gets demotivating, you know? So it was really important to me when people started like wanting to do it, I was like, yeah, just, just do it, make it yours, do whatever's going to work best for you, you know? So that was probably my big takeaway was if you're going to do something like that, that's cause a hundred days is a huge chunk, you know, that's like almost a third of the year. So you have to do it in a way that works for you so that you can get through it. Yeah. That's, that's so cool. I actually hadn't realized that kind of you were, uh, I don't want to say the founding person, but you know, that you kind of were the person who got it all started. That's really neat. It was an, it was a complete accident. Hey, the best accidents, you know? Um, yeah. So I guess, is there anything that you feel like you've learned or taken away from kind of as far as your own training where, um, where the challenge is concerned? I know you mentioned you're on day, you know, 80 something. Yeah. You know, I think it's, for me, it's been just a really good kind of accountability tool and just, um, making as far as like with gizmo, like we managed to get our team too. And, you know, 80, I think we're on day 88. I'd have to look, but just like plugging away and training as many days as we possibly can, you know, and then suddenly we have this title that we wouldn't,

I mean, you know, I think if I hadn't been keeping track and keeping that accountability, we probably wouldn't be where we are. And so now, you know, we'll just keep going. And when we hit day a hundred, I don't, I've been thinking about, you know, I don't know where I'm going to, what I'm going to do. And will I start over? Will I just keep, keep counting? I'm not sure. We'll, we'll have to figure it out. So. Hey, you're getting close. We're getting there. Yeah. As someone, I guess, uh, to shift gears a little bit, who's taken a lot of classes just with FDSA in general, do you have tips for other students who kind of want to maximize their learning either, you know, kind of tied to the different levels or just kind of generally when it comes to that online format? Yeah. So, um, I'm one of the students that usually, like, I'm one of the students that usually can't afford to take anything but bronze. If I can't afford to take a bronze, I'm not, I'm one of the, the kind of lower income students. So, and I know that there's a lot of students out there that are, are in the same boat as me. So the, what I can say about that is if you're like, when I take a bronze class, I work the class, like as if I were a gold, um, I don't necessarily always video. I try to, but it's, it's one of those things where I'm not always as good about it as I should be, but I do like I train, I, I get out the lectures, I train them. I do, I do it as if I were a gold. Um, that if I don't, if for some reason I can't afford to take a class that term, which happens, I didn't, I don't think I took a, it would be the last term of the term before I didn't take a class. What I do is I get out because I think most of us have classes sitting in our library that we haven't taken or now I'm on my like third dog or whatever. So I have classes that I've taken with one dog that I haven't taken with, with gizmo yet. So I'll get out my calendar and I'll get out my library and I will plug in a class. Like I'll get out the lectures and I'll put the classes into the dates on my calendar and I will just work that class in my library that term. So that's how I make it work for me. Um, and then I just, I'll just work through, through that class in my library as if, as if I were taking that class that term. Um, and it usually, you know, I can get through it. So I'm, I've become a pretty good bronze student just because I don't always have the funds to take gold and I'm, I'm motivated to get my dogs to where I want them to be. I love that about kind of plugging it into your calendar, the actual days for the lessons.

Cause I think, I think that's like a common problem, right? We get, we get a class in our library. Uh, I know I do this all the time and then it's like, well, you know, let me read through the first five lectures and then, okay, I'm going to kind of work on this. And then, you know, it kind of drifts in and out of my actual training plans. Um, but, but I love that the idea. Yeah. Yeah. You've got a lesson for a day and it's on the calendar exactly as if the instructor was releasing the lectures, right? Yeah, that's, that's exactly how I do it. And it makes a huge difference because then I just have like a, a plan laid out for six weeks and it, yeah, it works really well for me. That's awesome. Do you, uh, do you have a favorite piece of training advice that you can share? So my favorite piece of training advice is Andrea Harrison's golf. So give one less and then we'll leave the F to everyone's imagination. Um, but I feel like it's really important because dogs are going to be dogs sometimes like they're going to act like dogs. So if you get too worried or like you get too stressed out about what's happening with your training and everything, like you're not going to have fun. The dogs aren't going to have fun. So you just need to like, like if you're doing a team run through, for example, like I've had so many team run throughs where like we get most of it. And then one little thing is, you know, happens. And so we don't, we don't get, and it's like, Oh my gosh. But like, okay, well, you know what? So, so what, put the camera up, get the dog a bunch of cookies and we'll try again tomorrow. Like, don't, don't stress about it because that if you're that close, like you're going to get it eventually. So if we stress about everything, like eventually the dogs can be stressed out. I'm doing this because I'm having fun. I want to have fun with my dogs. So if I'm stressed about it, it's not fun for me. And eventually it won't be fun for my dogs either. That makes perfect sense. So what was the, what was the original bit from Andrea? I wasn't, I'm not sure I caught the, uh, the very first line. It's golf. Give one less. Give one. G-O-L-F. I like that. So last question here, getting to the end. Uh, what is the dog related accomplishment that you're proudest of? So, um, this is not from my competition experience. This is from my, my service dog experience. Um, so this is several years ago. Um, I had a dog that I, we rescue at Dogs for Better Lives, do rescue a lot of our dogs. Um, they come from animal shelters and they come from

various backgrounds and it's, um, you know, you, you pull this dog out of the shelter. You don't, you don't really know what you're, what you're getting. You, you know, you evaluate them in the shelter, but that's kind of hit or miss. So I pulled this dog from the shelter and he was a yellow lab. Um, and he had been found running in the woods in Klamath Falls, Oregon. He was covered in like pitch, like tree sap. Um, and so, uh, yeah, he was, he was pretty gross. Um, so we evaluated him. He seemed like a really nice dog. So I took him, brought him back with me and, um, I trained him for six months and he made it all the way through training was a very nice yellow lab that, you know, it's like, how did you get out in a stray and nobody, nobody, you know, came looking for you. So I trained him as a hearing dog. Um, and I took him to Iowa and placed him with this 33 year old desk gentleman who was, um, single lived alone and he was profoundly deaf. Um, so he didn't hear anything. Um, I use the sign language interpreter to help me communicate with them while I was placing the dog. Um, and his mom and dad lived right down the road from him and they would come and help him out quite a bit. Um, and so his mom was, she wasn't there while I was, I stayed with him for a week, helping him learn how to work the sounds and everything with the dog. And so on the last day, his mom came, cause she was going to learn how to help him with the, with the sound work with the dog. And one of those sounds that the dog was working with the smoke alarm. And so what the dog would do is he was lying in the bed and the dog would come and it would jump on the bed and alert him that the smoke alarm was going off and then run to the smoke alarm and show him where it was. And so I was standing on this chair and I'm like setting off the smoke alarm cause it's on the ceiling. And the dog, he was, his name was Chevy and he was pretty dramatic about the smoke alarm. Like he would, he would kind of like run over there and pounce on the bed and then he'd come back to the smoke alarm and he'd kind of like howl and sing as it's going off. And so he goes and he pounces on this guy and he runs back and he gets up and he follows the dog to the smoke alarm and the mom's watching the whole thing. And so he sits there and he's waiting for his hot dogs. Cause he, you know, alerted to the smoke alarm. And the mom looks at me and she has tears in her eyes and she goes, he's going to get out. And I said, yeah, the dog will let him know until yeah, he'll get out.

And she goes, no, you don't understand. She goes, I sit up at night and I worry that if his house catches fire down the road, that he's not going to get out because he's, he's deaf. He's not going to hear the smoke alarm and there's nothing I can do because I'm in a house down the street and I can't help him. And so, um, I think that was the first time that I realized, yeah, I mean, and I'd been training service dogs for quite a while at that point. Um, but that was one of the first, like, where it really hit me, what an impact that these dogs have, not just for the people that I place them with, but also for their family members, because not only is that dog good. Yeah. The dog will help him get out of the house after the fire, but it's also his mom's now going to be able to sleep at night. So that, that's probably my, my biggest dog related accomplishment. That is such a cool story. I love that. Like I got, I got, uh, you know, my hair standing at end a little bit there at the end. That's really neat. So yeah, not, not competition related, but I feel like that's like a little bit for me more important than any competition thing I could ever do. Absolutely. That's such a huge difference to make in somebody's life and, you know, kind of the ripples that that has out to all of the people that care about them. That's fantastic. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Andrew. This is great. Yeah. Thank you. For our final guest, we have Sarah Pisani. Sarah has been taking classes at FDSA since it began offering obedience classes and has taken a gold class every single session, except for two sessions in 2015, when she had both knees replaced before finding FDSA Sarah and her first performance dog, Jazz Marie, who she began with a novice A knowing nothing about dog sports, went on to earn over 350 arch points and a champion tracking title. Welcome to the podcast, Sarah. Thank you, Melissa. So to start us out, Sarah, can you just tell us a bit about your dogs and what you're working on with them now? I think I'm best described as a one dog girl. So even though I live in a multi-dog home, my life is most enriched when I can totally focus on the training of one dog. So Rick and I share three dogs. Disco is Rick's personal eight-year-old border collie who retired from agility with an injury over a year ago. But the cool thing is that he just finished his utility title a couple of months ago. And now he's gearing up for his UDX debut and he is sound and happy. And I think for everyone in our house, that's the most important thing. Then Tom's other,

or excuse me, Rick's other young border collie is Tom, who will be a year old next week. And he spent the last year learning what the world is about, cooperative care, and foundations for obedience and agility. So my personal dog is Buckle, who's a two-and-a-half-year-old border collie from Finland. And our main focus is preparation for Buckle's AKC obedience debut. But we're also students of agility. So we're not interested in competing in agility, but we are interested in how it stretches me personally and physically. Gotcha. So just kind of the idea of continuing to learn and continuing to kind of develop as a trainer. Yep, exactly. How did you originally kind of fall into dog sports or end up kind of in this world? So I had moved away from family and friends to live with a now ex-boyfriend who was not a very nice person and an incredibly bad personal choice. And finally, after months and months of me desperate for a dog, he relented saying that it would be better to get a dog than it would be to listen to me talk about not having one every single day. So I got a black lab from the newspaper. And she was a firecracker, the cutest little black lab you could possibly imagine. She risked intestinal surgery every day by eating something that she shouldn't eat. And after she was about, I think, four or five months old, and she was walking down the stairs in our condo ahead of me. And Drew was over to the side in the kitchen. And she got adjacent to Drew. And she stopped. And she turned her head to the wall. So she couldn't see him. And she kept walking down the stairs. And Drew said, I don't think she likes me. And I instantly lied and said, oh, no, of course she does. And it wasn't long thereafter that Jazz replaced Drew. And she became not only my best friend, but at that point where I was living, my only friend. And our classes in the local community center, eating cheese that everybody else dropped with her tongue on the floor, and that was her early version of healing, morphed into private competition obedience lessons. And we had a great journey in competition obedience and agility and tracking together. That's awesome. What kind of started you on your positive training journey? I mean, were you kind of always in that camp? Did you, you know, was there something in particular that kind of got you interested there? Got you started there? Yes, my first seminar. And so I'm at Seminar Aficiando. I love seminars. I love Fenzie Camp. I love that collective learning and that collective spirit. So my first seminar with Jazz, she wasn't even a year old, was with Patti Russo, who many

people will recall. She is a pioneer in the R-Plus journey of competition obedience. And that seminar was amazing. And I think that I'm not an angry person. And my relationship with Drew was really based on anger. And I literally had to reground myself in kindness and respect after having been with him for three years. And I, that seminar to me was amazing because here was this woman who was, she was like magic, what she did with her dogs. And she was extraordinary and her dogs were extraordinary. And I remember a woman going up to work with her dog and it's a positive reinforcement seminar. And the woman popped her dog when it looked away. And Patti could have instantly shamed that woman. And she chose kindness. And to watch that team blossom under her was life-changing for me. That's really neat that, you know, to have an instructor who actually takes the time to, you know, even in a moment that obviously isn't ideal for that seminar environment, still chooses the path that follows their own philosophy, right? That's really quite impressive. Yeah, it was, it was an amazing moment for sure. She could easily have said, what the heck are you doing popping the dog? I'm Patti Russo. We're going to talk about cookie power. And she didn't. And she didn't, she didn't choose that at all. So yeah, that was a great moment. I know a little bit before kind of we started recording, you're talking about that journey you had with Jazz, your first dog. Do you want to just tell me a little bit more about that? I'll tell you a quick story first. Our second time in the ring for Novice. And I was desperate. It was in a very large breed and obedience show. And people's dogs were laying quietly by their sides. And I was like, what the hell is that? And because Jazz was like a ping pong, racing after this, racing after that, like totally uncontrollable. I was like, I can't believe these dogs are just laying here quietly like this. This is crazy. So it's our turn in the ring. And we just squeak by on the heel on lead. We get through the figure eight, stand no problem. And now we're ready to do the heel off leash. And Jazz looks across the gray expanse of mass and sheer ears prick. And she's staring at something. Well, I'm desperate to get her attention. And of course, say screaming ready at the top of my lungs does not do any good. And off we go. And the judge says, halt. And he halts next to what Jazz was looking at. And so now we all look at it. And the judge says forward and I say, Jazzy Heal. And she bolts from my side to a piece of mat that was ripped,

six inches of mat. And she rips it up. And the judge is still calling healing. And I'm still walking. And I am by myself. And she throws the mat up in the air, catches it. She's running around the ring in the opposite direction. I do the whole healing walk of shame, finishing the pattern by myself. I get that, you get Jazz. I get the mat. And the judge takes the mat. And he throws it out the ring. And now Jazz is going to do a recall towards that end of the ring. And she gets to within six inches of me, this breathtaking recall, and decides, nope. Jumps out of the ring, gets the mat, jumps back in the ring, and dances her way around. And that was before you could excuse yourself. So that was our obedience debut. I am very impressed that you stuck with it. Oh, I stuck with it. It was a long six-hour ride home. And from that moment, I learned. I studied. I thought only about thoughts of precision and joy. And we ended up with 350 odds points, a tournament win, a tracking championship. And so I started to write a book about jazz. And I just, and I know this isn't the Jazz Marie show, but I'll just share with you a tiny bit of it and try not to cry. I don't say this to my non-doggy friends, but I've come to believe that I was put on this earth to make sure that this dog has a great day every day of her life. Mission accomplished. But how do I redefine myself when she's gone? There's irony here, because what was it about this dog and the journey we traveled together that has given me a life rich with love, friendships, and accomplishments beyond my wildest dreams that for some reason, before this dog, I couldn't get to that great life on my own. I'm not sure what morphed our connection, our girl-dog bond, into something stronger. There were always better trained dogs in every class we competed in. But the bond between us carried us to feats beyond my wildest imaginations. It carried us to the final articles of impossible to follow tracks. It carried us to obedience and agility wins, triumphing over amazing teams. She knew before I got dressed in the morning that she was coming for the ride and what we were going to do. I could guess which tree, stone, or bend in the path she would stop to sniff before she slowed her gait and lowered her head. Spooning at night, I could feel her heartbeat stronger than my own. That's really pretty, Sarah. Very well written. Thank you. It almost feels wrong to go on to the next question. It's okay. It's okay. She's been gone for six years and she's still in our house. Her spirit is

still here. Rick could start talking to her at any moment. So she's around. She's here with us. That's really beautiful. As somebody who obviously kind of fell into obedience and fell in love with it, what is your favorite part of the sport? What draws you to it and has kept you with it? So I really love that relationship, number one, with an animal. But what I really love that obedience offers is precision and joy. So if you just watch a team that is not joyful in obedience, like for me, I just find that really hard. And so how I train really impacts the fact that I am going to emphasize joy over precision. So, so often in Jazz's career, we went from hero to zero and champ to chump, but it was those glorious flunks where the dog was so ridiculously happy to be doing that work with me that I, that I look back on fondly. Whereas if she didn't feel so great about herself or what we were doing and she was precise, those are the memories that I can do it out. So for sure, joy first, precision second. Are there any aspects of the sport that you find you kind of struggle with? How do you address those in your training? So now fast forward, um, to training buckle, I would say that I have a small challenge is two small challenges is, um, my treat mechanics. So like, this is really nuts, but I think I can improve buckle skills if I get better at delivering treats with my left hand. That sounds crazy, but it's not really true. So I'm making my dog one-sided by always delivering treats with my right hand and his behaviors are going to reflect that. So I've literally say buckle. This is, you got to take one for the team. We're going to go down and I'm going to click and I'm going to feed you with my left hand. I'm sure he finds that torturous. Yes, he does. He's like, Oh mommy, please. Do I have to eat another treat? Actually, he's good about that. Um, so that, and, um, a larger challenge would be my footwork. So I've had, uh, bilateral knee replacements, but that's no excuse for the fact that I don't have the best rhythm, um, with my footwork. And I have to be really conscientious of, uh, what my eyes, my head, my upper body are doing in relation to my feet and how I cue the turns for buckle. And then I would say the largest challenge I have, um, with training is reducing reinforcement because I love to reinforce behavior. This is a huge part of it for me. And it's really hard for me to know when in a dog's training and with the balance of skills training to reduce that reinforcement, um, and, and build that program to the point of progressing to no, no cookies for an entire ring

performance. So that's really hard for me. And I have to plan really methodically to be able to do that. So I guess kind of looking at how you address that in training, I know you mentioned you've done treat sessions then where you're just basically working on your treat delivery with your left hand. I think that's awesome. I think that's something that a lot of people can, can think about, right. The, the fact of practicing just your reinforcement strategies and your delivery. And then you said you, you kind of break out that, uh, removing reinforcement and plan through it. Is there, is there any way you can get into a little more detail kind of how you do that? Yes. Hannah just did a great class on, um, unbroken and like sort of working through that chain and, and basically working, uh, with remote reinforcements. So whether you put the treat on the bowl, that type of thing, uh, or in the bowl and, you know, away from the dog and you move the dog away from their mat and away from their dish, you go do behaviors through a ring entrance, um, whether it's a simple thing as a hand touch, and then you build from there and go back to give, um, the dog's a reinforcement from the dish. So that is actually a really great program for me to follow. Um, because it's a sort of a step-by-step process and I'm, I'm working on it, but emotionally it's hard for me not to reinforce my dog. I'm just going to call that out right there. It is hard for me. I find, I find that. So I, I try and, um, train without conflict between the dog and I, but here I have conflict with myself because I want to reinforce, but I know it's inappropriate because I'm not giving my dog the skills to work through chaining behaviors together to get a larger reinforcement at the end, whether that's, you know, with a simple chain, like a retrieve or retraining or chaining two retrieves or whatever, how many ring exercises together to ultimately, um, work without reinforcement for all for our ultimate goal, which is competition obedience, not a soap and a utility. Right. I think that that's really useful for folks to hear. Cause I think a lot of people do struggle with that, but you know, it's, especially as positive trainers, it's like either we struggle with the, okay, we need to split more and give more cookies or we need to split less, right. And, or we need to increase criteria and kind of breaking those two things apart and figuring them out and what they look like for, um, each of us as a trainer and each of our dogs is a dog. Like that's very, uh, different, I guess from, it's a complex topic, right?

I guess that's what I'm really trying to say. It is complex and work. So I'm very fortunate in that buckle signs work reinforcing, but within the work and meeting criteria and having an expectation of mommy giving him a cookie or mommy giving him a toy and feeling that I haven't set him up for that delayed reinforcement will, will cause buckle to be frustrated and he'll vocalize if I am incorrect. So I have to plan really well, those types of sessions. So I don't frustrate him and cause the rate of reinforcement to drop too low because I'll hear it. Fair enough. To kind of shift gears a little bit, cause we're getting close to the end here. Um, I wanted to ask, uh, you know, as somebody who's taken a lot of classes with FDSA, um, do you have any tips for other students kind of for maximizing their learning either in terms of working through at a specific level or just kind of generally working through that online platform? Um, absolutely. So, um, definitely if you're taking, if you're not taking gold, I would highly recommend that you try it. Um, if you have the ability to video and edit your videos, um, and have an appropriate working, working space size appropriate for the class that you want to take, um, there it's, it's an incredible value. It's, uh, for your, and we're talking about, I mean, the, every FDSA instructor is a complete gem. They're a gem from the point of being supportive. They're a gem from the point of being gifted dog trainers and the best and the brightest, I mean. And so for the amount that a gold, uh, session, um, cost, it's, it's, it's just crazy, the value, um, that we get from that. Um, so, but at any level, I would say, read every gold thread, watch every video, read all the feedback because the chances are that whoever else is in your class. So, so I've got a crazy town buckle, but you know what? I, there's a corgi that I do hang on every single word because they're so similar. Um, I would say plot your weekly schedule. So I'm a busy self-employed, um, individual. I have a four and a half hour commute four to five days a week. I know what my access to daylight is versus nighttime and in the basement. So plot out your training, um, so that you could maximize your six minutes of video every week, um, without, you know, posting, you know, three videos on the last day. That's, um, not as appropriate. Um, I would, if you know, you're going to be away for a part of the session, stockpile your video for vacations, because I find that that's really helpful. But, but then also,

um, if you just gotten, just received very specific feedback from the video, I wouldn't recommend then submitting a video, um, that flies in the face of that feedback. I would just, I would just hold off, um, and wait until you're able to respond appropriately to the feedback. Um, and then all that. So that's all of those are staying the course, keeping up for six weeks. And then everyone should always remember those six week courses. You're never going to get the entire thing in six weeks. I, I'm not, I would imagine many people are not, um, specifically like for a healing class. These things take time. They take time. There's, you know, there's a progression about them that they're not confined to six weeks. Um, so, and then the last thing I would say is don't get so structured in the importance of submitting your videos and keeping up with class, but honestly look at the dog and let the dog lead the way. So a perfect example in precise precisions, I was going to kill that class. It was going to be amazing. Buckle was going to be tippity chop, get every single video every week perfectly. And at the end of week one, Buckle decided he was afraid of his platform. And then he decided he was afraid of his beloved basement. And I spent the next two weeks sending Hannah videos on, I think you might be a tiny bit happier now. What do you think? And so, so you can do all the planning you want, but you, you really have to pay attention to the dog and let them decide what's next. I think that's good advice, not just for online learning, but for any learning, right? For anytime you're working on something, um, kind of with your dog. Do you have a, uh, a favorite piece of training advice that you care to share? Um, I, I've been thinking about this question. It's a totally cool question. And I, I do have one that, um, I can't, I, I would love to say this person recommended that, um, that person recommended this piece of it, but overall, I would say that find a reinforcement system that both you and your dog enjoy. And if you both have that, then the other side of the loop that is opposite of that reinforcement cycle will be easy. So in other words, uh, many people have said, buckle should tug with a stick, a stick toy instead of a hanging ball off a fleece, uh, rope. And he doesn't like those sticks and neither do I, but we can literally play all day with that particular toy, that same brand. Um, buckle. So we, when I, when buckle was a baby, we did nothing but reinforcement. We didn't do any skills. We did toy play and then we did food and we were able to

tug on a toy, eat a cookie, tug on a toy, eat a cookie. So I have all the reinforcement available to me because we created a system we both liked, but we also maintain that system and we use, um, and I learned this from shade and Kamal different reinforcement markers for every toy delivery and food delivery. So we have about 15 different markers, but we have a system and I would, I would say right now that's the most important part of my training. That's neat. I like that. I like thinking about that, not necessarily as there is a system out there that you have to go learn, but as kind of discovering your own, um, kind of thing that works with, with you. I like that. I think, I think that's, that's been a thread through this whole kind of conversation. I think a lot of what, um, what you've shared kind of follows that, that concept of kind of discovering what works best for you and your dog and sticking with it. So last question here, uh, what is the dog related accomplishment that you're proudest of? So can I do three if I'm quick? Absolutely. One for each dog? Go for it. Okay. So, so let's start with today. Today I drove five hours in the pouring rain through Staten Island, Brooklyn, uh, uh, Staten Island, Brooklyn and Queens for 30 minutes at a match with Buckle. And I've been working on Buckle, uh, quote unquote, pushing me with calm behavior because he gets very excited in dog training environments and he vocalizes, he barks and call it what it is. It's a, you know, barking shit show where it can be. And today I put Buckle's mat down and I put down a chair and I had the judge sit in a chair and Buckle walked into that ring and he laid on his mat and he, he was calm. He, you could see on his face, my job is to lay here. And so mommy says, let's go do something. And I release him with the exact same word. We work, we go back to our mat. He lays in a curl down and he's next to the judge and the judge can talk. I could talk to the judge. And for 10 minutes, for the first time in his life, he didn't bark. It was pretty great today. And then I would say, I would like to tell you that with Finn, um, who was a pioneer at the Fengy Academy and my rescue border collie, I would like to tell you that Finn's first time in the novice ring, when he scored a 198 and a half, um, after a really long time, uh, giving Finn the courage to be able to perform in that environment without fear. Um, and to trust me, um, that I would not let anything bad happen to him in that five minutes. I'd like to tell you that that was my greatest

accomplishment with Finn. And what was my greatest accomplishment was we tied for high in trial and we were going to have a runoff. And the best thing I ever did was give the high in trial to somebody else. So Finn wouldn't have to do it again. And then, uh, for jazz, jazz, uh, is a tough one. And I would literally say that our, so our, my journey with Finn was cut short. My journey with buckle, um, is just getting started and is, you know, they were both amazing and, and buckles, I hope will continue to be so. And with jazz, with hindsight being 2020, I would say that the level of communication that we reached together in life and in sport was really, um, my greatest accomplishment. And so like, as an example, um, just, and so this is one could argue, this isn't really communication. It's a trained behavior, but if I saw jazz coming into a front, that's crooked, I could flick my eyes and she can go, Oh, got it, mom. And move her butt and sit straight. Or when she would go to finish, um, and I could see that she was going to be butt out, I could tighten all the muscles in my upper arm and that dog could go, Oh, you're right. And make that extra effort to sit straight. We were at a PDX start and jazz, the lab that she was, was chomping on grass. And I was standing in a split stride and she wasn't starting to track. She was, you know, digging in for a nice, good graze. And I literally loosened my fingers on the lead and I moved my weight from my back leg to my front leg. And she trotted up the hill and became the first dog in that, in that site to, uh, get their TVX title in six years of trying. So that was pretty cool. And then the last thing with jazz is we were in our championship, our VST, um, trial, and she headed into the parking lot. And the dog has to do a moment of truth turn where the track goes on just pavement, 90 degrees. And she flicked her head to the right after having gone out 50 yards into the parking lot. And I just literally tightened my hand on the lead, which to jazz, that was me questioning, are you sure? And she turned her head again to the right in response and saw that track to her glove. And the judge had met in 40 years of, well, actually the VST isn't that long, but it was his first time seeing a dog, um, achieve that title. So, so that level of communication was to me, just amazing. That's awesome. And that's a very FDSA-esque achievement. So I love that. Oh, that's good. That's good. All right. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Sarah. This has been great. Thank you, Melissa. It was really fun.

And thanks to our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week, this time with our annual anniversary edition of the podcast. So if you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fendi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fendi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by benson.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Thank you.