E20: 데비 그로스(Debbie Gross) - "카나인 피트니스 + 재활"

I wanted to give you a chance to talk a little bit about how you got into animal rehabilitation. What is it that drew you in that direction? Sure. I've always been drawn to animals and just adored them. And when I went to human physical therapy school, there was a lot of hands-on, a lot of palpation. And eventually my roommates got tired of being guinea pigs. And at the time I had an Alaskan Malamute and he was more than a willing participant. So I started to look at his body and say, oh, if we could do all these things for people, why can't we do these for animals? And this was back in the 1980s. And one of my professors said, Debbie, don't be silly. This is a dog. No one's ever going to spend money or care about that much on a dog. So I kind of laughed at that and said, OK. And I kind of kept that in the back of my mind. And I graduated. I took my first job in New York City. And I was working with a lot of dancers in New York City ballet and definitely started to appreciate different types of movement. So if a ballerina or another type of dancer is missing five degrees of motion in their big toe, it's going to be significant. And I think about all those minor things so often today when I work with performance dogs, dogs that are involved in high-level competitions. But I stayed with human physical therapy for a while, always kind of thinking about my dream of working with dogs. And I slowly just started to do a lot of independent learning, a lot of reading, spending a lot of time with veterinarians and going to different vet schools and studying anatomy and things like that. And then eventually it turned into more and more. And then I then started teaching at the University of Tennessee. And the CCRP letters are the certified canine rehabilitation practitioner. So I helped establish that program and continue to teach with them. And it's really kind of, you know, to me, kind of a common sense thing. And dogs and other animals suffer many of the same injuries that people do. For example, an ACL injury in people is very common in dogs as well. And there are many different breeds that, you know, suffer with that. But things like arthritis and neurological diseases and sports-related issues. I mean, certainly everything that we know from the human field, we can just benefit, you know, help the dogs. So it's been pretty awesome to start out with this, you know, almost 20 years ago and watch it kind of just be an idea. And now it's definitely becoming more and more commonplace. And I love looking on Facebook or talking to people from all over the world.

And they're taking their dog for rehab or they're pursuing other options. And, you know, they're doing things like that, which is, you know, just fantastic. Yeah. So that's been, you know, it is. It's great when, you know, and I laugh at that professor that I every once in a while, I'll see her at a conference. And I'll say to her, hey, remember that kind of thought or dream I had? I said, that's kind of what I do now 24-7 about. So a lot of people that have gone through rehab can definitely relate and they understand. And, you know, so I'm always thrilled when, you know, more and more owners are, you know, pursuing different options and, you know, for their pets. And really, like the motto of our clinic is every dog deserves the best quality of life for the longest time possible. And no matter if the dog is seven weeks old or 17 years old, you know, so important just to make sure that they're pain free and have the highest level of function. So it's really been this incredible journey. And I just I love it. You started to talk a little bit there about some of the differences and similarities between physical therapy for people and that for dogs. Are there other key differences you can kind of speak to? Yeah. So a lot of, you know, besides the obvious, you know, people being biped and dogs being quadruped. I joke, too, a dog is not they have no idea that something should make them feel better. You know, if they're they're so truthful, they're either a treatment's going to work or it's not going to work. So there's no secondary gains. They're not messing with an insurance company or anything like that. But, you know, with the same kind of similarities, whenever there's pain or inflammation, there's going to be weakness that evolves. So like I tell my kids, if your body perceives pain, it's going to shut off all the muscles in the area. So very similar, you know, a person can say, hey, my knee hurts. I need to do something about it. Very often we take an Advil or Tylenol. A dog can't say that to an owner. So a lot of times it unless the owner is very perceptive and notices a slight change in their behavior, it's hard to determine if they're in pain until it gets pretty bad. You know, so recognizing pain is definitely there's a big difference. I encourage all my owners and all my students to make sure they go over their dogs on a monthly basis just to check for any pain or soreness or anything like that. But many of the same treatment modalities that we would use in human medicine we use in the animal.

So like moist heat or ice, laser photobiomodulation is commonly used to help reduce pain and inflammation. And a lot of the exercises we do, you know, very similar. Of course, we have to get a little bit more creative with the dog. But pretty much everything used in human medicine we could, you know, transfer over to, you know, to the dog. So it's pretty cool. Now, I think that veterinarians and the medical field in general isn't always known as the most positive part of dog sports. So I'd love to get your take on that. How do positive training and rehabilitation overlap? And are there places where they just can't? Yeah. And that's a very good question. I belong to an organization. I sit on the board called Fear Free. And their whole goal and mission is to establish fear free veterinarian offices, rehab offices, looking at training facilities, boarding facilities, things like that. So it's all aimed at making sure the experience is positive and fear free. And certainly, you know, a lot of we laugh in our clinic because we're not the vet. So dogs come in and they know they're getting copious amounts of cookies and it's going to be a great place and they love it. And so I think it's very important to, you know, right off the bat, we want to make sure the owner and the dog are very comfortable. Certainly, dogs often will become fearful or potentially aggressive if they're in pain. So, you know, I always tell the trainers that I work with, assume that it's physical before behavioral. You know, I'll hear so many times from owners, oh, my dog didn't want to do the A-frame, you know, this morning. It's probably because, you know, they make something up. They didn't get steak for dinner, you know, say, I swear they don't think like that. You know, they probably didn't want to do something because they're in pain. You know, something like the A-frame is, you know, puts a lot of stress on the dog's back and the hips and stuff like that. So, you know, understanding if a dog is fearful or doesn't want to do something, looking at the reason why. You know, so is it pain that is prohibiting them from doing something? And, you know, certainly some dogs are not candidates. Like we've turned dogs away because they're either too fearful or they just can't do, they don't want to do anything. And rather than forcing them, we won't do that. You know, and that's a little bit different than traditional vet medicine where dogs, you know, need to go in. They, you know, they may need to get an exam or their vaccinations or things like that.

But this fear-free movement is fantastic and, you know, looks at everything from the lighting, their potential pheromones in the air to relax the dogs and cats also and other animals. So, but most of the time in rehab, dogs love it. You know, they love coming into our office and it's fun and it's all positive. And, you know, that's the way, you know, that's the way I want it to be. I mean, I love when the dogs pull their owners into the office. So, you know, that they're having a great time. So it's great. Now, is there a website associated with the Fear Free organization just in case people want to look it up? Yeah, I believe I'll look. I think if someone just Googled Fear Free, it would pull up and it's actually fearfreepets.com. So, and their motto is taking the pet out of petrified. And it is very nice. It's a, you know, nice, you know, group that, and the number of practitioners getting certified and fear-free are growing constantly. So, you know, that's really great. And I highly encourage owners to seek out one of these facilities because they just, you know, are a little bit more in tune with things and make the experience as positive as they can. So, I'll make sure to include a link to the site in the show notes for everybody. Perfect. So, I want to drill just a little bit more into rehab itself. Rehabilitation sort of implies this idea that something's gone wrong and now it's time to try and fix it. So, I was curious how much of what you teach is about preventing problems and how much of it's about really fixing them. Great question. And we probably, I would say half the dogs that I see have an issue, you know, that can be fixed. So, for example, they've had a torn ligament, they had surgery, and now we're rehabbing them, getting them back to normal. The other half is all about prevention and looking at what the dog does, what the dog needs to do, and how to get them stronger. So, for example, we run a program called The Biggest Loser, and it's a weight loss program. You know, we know that so many dogs, the obesity causes so many orthopedic issues as well as other issues and, you know, helping owners and the dogs to understand how to get going and, you know, just start a weight loss program, a successful weight loss program. And we have older dogs that just need some exercise and they just need to get moving and will start implementing a simple exercise program.

And then on the other end of the spectrum are, you know, some of your, we see a ton of confirmation dogs where they need to get into shape and, you know, for whatever reason, they're not, they haven't been in shape and they, you know, vary from doing something. We have underwater treadmills. They may run in the underwater treadmills for 30 to 45 minutes, just depending on, you know, what they're doing and, but, you know, helping to build up their, their strength and conditioning. And, you know, that goes, you know, to with different athletic dogs, your ships and dogs, your, your agility dogs, obedience work, anything like that. So really, you know, on both sides. So kind of fixing something, but also the goal is definitely preventing injuries from happening. So we do a little bit of both. Now, are there things that dog sports encythia should be doing to keep their dog in top shape? Or does that kind of vary based on sport or based on breed? Yeah, that's another great question. So I think that if we look at human sports, no matter whether it's on the collegiate level, the professional or Olympic level, any of our human athletes is involved in a conditioning program. So they have a program set for them and they would never think about not engaging in a conditioning program. But on the canine side, that's not always the case. Now, I hear so often, you know, the dogs are just weekend warriors. So they just go to an agility trial over the weekend and the owner does nothing with them during the week. And I think every dog, if they're involved in performance sports, whether it's just a couple times a month or every weekend, they need to be in a conditioning program. And the conditioning program should definitely include core strength. So working just like you and I would work on our back strength or abdominals, all the large muscles of the body, working on endurance. So sometimes it's just simple walking or jogging. And then sports specific. So a dog involved in agility is going to need more power or explosive events like plyometrics, working on their strength, going over jumps, but also stopping quickly and making sure that their shoulders and their hip flexors are strong enough. And of course, that'll differ from your confirmation breed that may need more endurance to run around the ring and also more core strength. So it does depend on the sport. And it's also going to depend upon the breed. And I often laugh where I love the big, you know, the gentle monsters, your Newfoundlands and giant Mastiffs.

And, you know, of course, their activity, if they walk 10 minutes in the underwater treadmill, they're sleeping for the next 24 hours. You know, where as you have a Border Collie that's very active, they're going to need more exercise. You know, so it'll vary by breed. It'll also vary by age. So very young dogs, you know, anywhere under 24 months, you want to be respectful of their growth plates and their psychological ability to exercise. And then on the flip side, your older dogs, you don't want to overdo it either. So you want to be respectful. But hands down, any dog that competes in any kind of event or just does it for fun should be doing some sort of core work. And it doesn't take much to make a big difference. Now, I'd imagine that there are some injuries you see a lot more often in dog sports than others. What are some of the things that do crop up most often? And, you know, what are some of the things maybe you do when you work with those types of dogs from a conditioning standpoint or even from a rehabilitation standpoint? Yeah. So I think probably two of the more common injuries that have just been unfortunately gaining more popularity are iliopsoas injuries or injuries to the hip flexor, which is back in the near the dog's hip, the front of the hip and shoulder issues. And I think the iliopsoas is a soft tissue injury. And I've definitely been seeing an increase in these injuries as dogs are not really. They're being trained at a younger age without a lot of adequate core strength. And so they're being pushed a lot further and they don't have the strength in their core or their hip flexors. So they start to develop this weakness and this injury. And it's probably one of the more stubborn injuries to rehab from. And part of it is because most owners, and I'm right up there, are impatient. You know, as soon as the dog starts to look better, you want to get them out there and play. And they're commonly, it's commonly injured by a dog slipping or excessive ball playing. And that's something that so many people love to do, toss the ball. And if the dog doesn't have enough strength, they're going to put a lot of stress on that area. And it's the same thing with the shoulder injuries. The shoulders stop the dog from moving forward. So, for example, when a dog comes over a jump, the shoulders are what stabilizes or stabilize the body. So the dog doesn't fall flat on their face. And if there's a minor injury, weakness will develop and that'll start to become an issue. So really with both of these cases, again, going back to lots of core strengths and working on sports specific.

So working on the landing over a jump and building up the strength, working on a lot of what's called eccentric strength. So, you know, really preparing them for that. And the other things are proper warm-ups and cool-downs. So always, you know, making sure that the owners are working on that and doing that. Now, I know you're offering the canine fitness trainer courses through FDSA. Do you want to talk a little bit about that, kind of what they are and what the goal is there? Sure. And so the fitness trainer courses are so much fun. They're such a great, dedicated group of people because there's four courses in a row. And the goal really is to educate people to either work more with their dog or go out there and help other dogs. So many of the people that have graduated and successfully completed the course and their exam are out there. Kind of for, you know, if we equate to people like working as a personal canine trainer. So helping dogs with weight loss, helping dogs with different types of exercises. And they've gone through, it's fairly intense. So the first two sessions focus on functional anatomy. So learning about the different muscles and how to use them and different exercises to give for them. Tons of safety information. And, you know, then kind of putting it all together. So talking about the different sports and what they need or just different dogs and what they'll need. And how to set up a program that's safe and effective, you know, for an individual dog. So it's so much fun. I learn something every time we go through a different, you know, different group of people. Because, you know, they're just incredible. You know, what they think and the different types of dogs. And so it really has been, you know, fantastic. And it's a lot of work. And I'm so proud of everyone that's completed it. Because it definitely takes a lot of dedication. Now at the end of the four classes, they can take a test, right? To become certified. Is that right? Correct. So they submit four case studies. So four dogs that they've been working with. And then there's an exam. Yes. And then they become a certified professional canine fitness trainer. Very cool. I'll think of that for a minute. Yes. Now I want to talk, too, about some of the other classes you offer at FDSA. Do you want to just share kind of what they are and kind of what you cover in those classes? Yeah. So I offer a bunch of different ones. And one is the basic canine conditioning, which I cannot stress, as I've said before, that anybody involved in dogs should.

It's such a great course for people to take because it just goes over basics, basic things that anyone could do at home. So it doesn't have to be with equipment or anything like that, but just basic exercises that anyone can do and can make them more difficult as it demands for the dog. And then the second canine conditioning course just gets into a little bit more depth. But we've had dogs that are 14 or 15 years old, and the owners have just been working with them to improve their quality of life. And we've had other dogs that are high-level competitors in class. And so it's so wonderful to see just the different effects of simple canine conditioning can have on the individual dogs. Then I teach a course on the bum knees, and that's knee injuries are unfortunately very prevalent in dogs. And we talk about different prevention strategies for knee injuries, what to do if your dog has had a knee injury or does have a knee injury, and talk about safe exercises to go through. And I think there's a course on the iliopsoas, which, as I mentioned before, definitely a muscle in an area that is just a hot topic. And it goes over also injury prevention, what to do, how to recognize an injury, and what to do, what different types of exercises. And I believe there's a shoulder course that does the same thing, but just focuses on shoulders. We're looking at different types of shoulder injuries and that sort of stuff. So off the top of my head, I think that's it. There could be some more. There's just so many wonderful things that people have been asking for a course for senior dogs. So maybe that will be my next project. Perfect. So I do want to ask you the same questions that I ask everybody who comes on kind of towards the end of the podcast. So what's the dog-related accomplishment that you are proudest of? I have to probably involve the dog that I had worked with for quite some time, and she continues to be like just an accomplishment that I'm so proud of. I have a beautiful Irish setter that I had worked with for a year, and she had won, I think, 31 best in shows. And it was just amazing to watch her move and knowing what was kind of lying underneath her. It was pretty fantastic. Her handler became her owner, and she had been retired. She had 15 puppies, and 14 weeks after the puppies, he came to me and he said, Do you think we can get her ready for Westminster? And I looked at him and said, Are you crazy? You know, this dog has been doing nothing for quite some time, had 15 puppies. And I accepted the challenge and worked with her and did so much with her.

And I had gone to Westminster that year. My own dog had won the breed and bull mastiffs. And a Portuguese water dog I had bred, won the breed. And then I watched this beautiful Irish setter, and she went on to win the breed. And so I was all done, ready to watch the groups. And I thought, Okay, my day is done. I'm just going to kick back and relax. And this dog, this Irish setter, won the group. So she was going on to Best in Show. And it was, you know, just a pretty incredible experience. And not only for me, but also for my staff. And then we did it. She went on to win Irish setter nationals as a veteran, which was pretty incredible. So even though it wasn't my dog, it felt pretty incredible to be part of that. So, you know, I always, I look back on that and just knowing everything and everything that she had to go through. So it was pretty, pretty incredible. That's awesome. Yeah. Congrats. So even though we didn't necessarily talk about training today, I did want to ask you what the best piece of training advice you've ever heard is. You know, I think like I always, I always tell myself and I always tell people, always listen to the dog. Like, you know, from what I do, dogs always tell us what's wrong with them. You just have to open up your eyes and your ears and watch and listen and they'll tell you. You know, so I, I know that's not specifically training, but, you know, from what I do, you know, listening to the dog, they always know, you know, what's right for them. If a dog wants to rest, there's a reason, you know, where, you know, sometimes we don't listen to. Right. And then finally, who is somebody else in the dog world that you look up to? There are a lot of people that I look up to probably from, you know, coming from my background with structure and all of that sort of stuff. Pat Hastings is someone that I look up to just from her knowledge. And I've taught with her a few times and it's been, you know, pretty incredible. And, you know, probably to then, you know, from a dog, like looking at, you know, training and that sort of stuff. I've, I'm a big fan of Denise's and watching her, her calmness, how she works with, you know, works with dogs. And there are a couple people that train in my area, the same thing that, you know, there's definitely people that just understand dogs and dogs understand them. So, yeah, it's hard to pinpoint it to just one. Fair enough. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Debbie. Oh, thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Absolutely. And thanks to all of our listeners for tuning in.

We'll be back next week with Lori Stevens to discuss supporting our aging dogs. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang and transcription written by COK Transcription Services. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Music. Music. Music. Music. Music. Music. Music. Music. Music. Music. Music. Music. Music. Music. Music. Music. Music. Music.