Training Without Conflict® 팟캐스트 에피소드 38: Jenny Gibson

So, Jenny, I don't know much about you. I know you said in the emails and in the... on Facebook and so on that, of course, you're not a professional dog trainer, but just give us a little bit of background so we can get things moving here. So, I describe myself as a middle range nurse. I'm a woman in my 60s. And I just love dog training. I've been force-free dog training for the last 15 years. I've been involved with a number of service dog agencies. I've had puppy puppy dogs. And I've had two dogs. And my work as a community nurse, I spend a lot of time with families with very complex problems helping sort out their behaviour. I work in a multidisciplinary team, part of it, with psychologists and mental health and school, and trying to help solve very difficult family problems. And it feeds very comfortably into the dog training I do. So, I also like to... I mean, and I think can hear some belly laughs coming at this moment. I'm absolutely passionate about force-free. Mm-hmm. Tell me about your dog. What do you have? Hmm? So, I have one. Tell me about your dog. So, my current dog is a Cocker Spaniel. Bought as a puppy with the idea that we would... I would love to go out on shoots and do pick-up. I train with a lady called Helen Phillips up in Evesham. She runs the Gundog Training Academy along with Jules Morgan. They're a fabulous group. And I really enjoy their company up there. And the idea was that this current Cocker Spaniel was going to be... I was going to learn force-free up there with her, with them, and have a fabulous time. And that hasn't worked out like that. And actually, the reason it hasn't worked out has made me even more passionate about being force-free. But it didn't work out because of schedule or just... Because I have a dog with no recall. From the moment she was a puppy. I did Susan Garrett's recall training twice. Games, yeah. A few games. Two years. Two years running. I followed that. And watched all the videos and people said, oh, there's a wonderful happy ever after. And it never happened with her. So she's now nine. I thought it was all to do in the early years, the fact that she had a very skilled father. He's won lots and lots of awards up in Scotland. Mother was a stay-at-home mum, I suppose you'd call her that. And I thought I had rocket fuel with a ditzy mother. And it was all to do with brain chemistry. Then when she was seven, I... Sarah Hansen, who... She has the Wiggly Dog videos. I don't know if you've seen... She's a... She's a compassionate force-free trainer. It's in England. Yeah, yeah. Really recommend. Anyone who's like, oh,

don't believe it happened. Definitely. We'll look into it. Watch Sarah Hansen's force-free. They're fabulous spaniels that she's got. She... We had a conversation. She said, oh, come and see me. I can help you. She... We spent half a day together. She gave me lots of ideas, which I was mostly doing already. And then at the end of the meeting, she had a field... She gave her back... My... Pippa, a little back massage. And she said, oh, there's something not quite right with her back. She had a tiny bit of muscle wastage. That was all. And a little bit of massage. She had a bit of spasm. So I begrudgingly went to the vet who she had an... The vet said, well, we can give you some painkillers. And I'm thinking, well, I don't think she's in pain. Right. So eventually, they said, well, we'll have an x-ray. Had an x-ray, something not quite right. Went for a CT scan. They said, put her on complete rest. It's possible that soon she's going to be paralyzed. And it turned out that she actually had a collapse on her in one of the discs in her spine. So the only thing I'd done between seeing Sarah and having her release after crate rest was spinal surgery. Post spinal surgery, she's a different dog. Completely different dog. In terms of... Oh, she comes to me. She would never come to me. She would never be near me. If I let her off in a recall field, I would have to have a long line on her in a recall field because she wouldn't let me near her. And I've done all the recall stuff that Susan suggested she just didn't want to be near me. And all I can conclude is that she actually was in pain all her life and that running reduced the pain. She had the surgery to stop that. I mean, she's still got some learned behavior. It's not great. You know, she never will be a dog that can run free. But I have a dog with recall now. And I... There were times when I... Just so I get that right, because it's a... It's kind of interesting story. You... You... You believe that the problem that you had with the recall was due to the health problem with the spine and... And some... Something... Some kind of association that the dog was making? So, I think... I think... I don't know. I mean, I'm sure some of your listeners have spinal problems. It's absolutely... Oh, for sure. It's actually quite common stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And when it comes, you can't do much about it. You know, it's just there all the time. When she was in the litter... I mean, I'm looking back when we went to see her in the litter with the rest of the pups, she always kept herself away. She was never part of the group. When we brought her

home, she didn't really want rough play. And we just thought, oh, she's just one of these dogs. But actually, I think... And I think probably when she ran, she put herself in such high arousal that she didn't feel the pain. So, she didn't want to come in even... I mean, I have... I'm very lucky to have a field where she can run free. Just a small field. It's flooded at the moment. There's ice on it sometimes. Even when there's ice on it and she's shaking, she does not want to come home because I think she realizes that her ability, her choice to be able to run free is gone. But now she's had the surgery. She comes back. Yeah, I'll come back. I'll come home. I am puzzled. Like, I didn't mean to jump straight into the... Yeah, no. Yeah, sorry. ...to this question, but it's a very interesting and... And I'm just trying to explain it to myself why she didn't want to come in first place and what change in surgery that she now decided to come. It is this... So, the way I explain it is... So, while she didn't want... We all want choice in our life. And while she was running free, she had the choice to run free. She knew that once she came back to me, that was the end of her ability to run in really high state arousal. Correct. Right. Because she was on the lead. And she would... Her father, I know, had a very... He has a huge ability to bring himself down very quickly. That was one of his strengths. And so, she can bring herself right down. But once she's on the lead, that was it. She lost that ability. The only way I can explain it is... I don't know if anybody's got friends who have depression. And they... You tell them a joke that's really not very funny. And they laugh. And they laugh in quite hysterical... Or sometimes, you know, it's almost embarrassing the amount of laughter that they give. And I think I see her running like that in that if you're very low, you need a trigger to make you laugh. But once you are laughing, it's like, this is so good. I must keep on with it. I don't know if that makes sense. I'm trying. I'm trying very hard. I mean, I understand. Like I am, you know, to a pretty decent level, understand how depression and even psychotropic medications and different types of therapies, including, you know, psychedelics and so on. But it's just... That's probably the wrong example. I don't know. Typically, it's a very interesting case. And it's your dog. And, you know, normally... Like, what you're saying is just, I cannot make sense. I cannot put it two and two together for some

reason. Like she is running. That means, which is not uncommon. Many dogs that have spinal injuries, they have problems with certain angles and going up and so on and so on. Again, depending what the what vertebrate and what exactly the condition is. But the fact that she's running, it means that she's capable of even running, forget walking towards you when you call her, but even running to you if she wanted to. But you're saying that she didn't want to because somehow there is a connection between the injury that... So, I think structurally, I think her body worked. And the Spaniels are not good at managing their arousal status anyway, are they? I mean, you know, they can... I mean, they do say that a lot of Spaniels are short of a bit of serotonin. And, you know, they... So, naturally, they do push themselves up. And I think it's much more of an emotional thing that she did. So, she discovered that if she pushed herself beyond an arousal state where she didn't really feel anything, that was good. You know, just as an addict will go and find themselves, you know, a bit of LSD or... So, you wouldn't call that just, I just don't want to come, I have better things to do. You're finding other reason why she didn't want to come. To me, from what I'm hearing is, I picture a happy dog running out and about having good times. And somebody calls it and they say, not right now, Mum. I'm having a good time. So, her running was never like that. Yeah. So, her running was never like that. I mean, I've got videos of her. She would run and scream. She would scream at the top of her voice in full circle. She couldn't get her nose down to, you know, I just take on a line to Helen's to do any... Oh, my brain's gone. What do you call it when the dogs, when spaniels go backwards and forwards? Oh. Yeah, I wouldn't. And... The beating dogs. Oh, anyway. The spaniel puts his nose down, stays within a certain range, it goes backwards. Yeah, it's like a... just tracking, casting. Yeah. Yeah. But it's got a word and I can't remember. Anyway. So, she couldn't get her nose down to do that. She was so over aroused. Mm-hmm. She was... So, it wasn't that lovely, gentle gallop, Rallo. It was running and screaming at the top of her voice. She would find a flapping plastic bag in the bushes that would... and she'd bark at it. She'd choose... find anything to react to. So, you would say that she actually was doing it out of extreme frustration and really not enjoying it? Is that kind of... No. No, I think she'd... Well, yeah, I wouldn't say it was... Yeah, I think it was a... She'd just push herself to a high.

Um... Like teenagers... Well, I guess what I'm asking is... Yeah. Was she having a blast? Like, was that like the highlight of the day? And she just loses her mind and goes totally out of control, running and screaming and barking because I have Malinois and... and they do that every morning. Mm-hmm. Um... Or was that somehow in a very negative state of mind that it's like if... Let's say if that was a person, it's kind of angry and running and cussing and, you know, just... There was no anger. ...just mad at the world or... Like, where would you put it in the two? No, it was... No, it was... ADHD. I mean, I'd... I had to... When I walked... So, it takes about 10 minutes to walk to the latest, uh, the nearest recall place. And I... You know how you can get swivels on... Leads have swivels on them? I would put three swivels on a lead and by the... By five minutes time, she had spun herself round. I mean, I only remember... Remember it now. And it just was her. You know, she couldn't walk in a straight line. She would be spinning herself. Um... And I put it down to her biochemistry that, you know, she was just... She couldn't self-regulate. But actually, she was probably in pain. Um... And on a lead, you don't have that ability to choose how you move. Um... True. True. Yeah. Because it... Yeah. That... That... That I understand when you... When you are... It's kind of like a fish on a hook. It... I... I want to get out. Right? So... So it's... Yeah. So she... And cuddles at home. She wouldn't want to be touched. But she was best friends with my teenage son who was at home at the time. Um... He was the complete... You know, the typical teenage son, couch potato, on his PlayStation or whatever most of the time. She loved him because she could climb up onto his lap and he really wasn't interested in her, but he could be close to her. She could be close to him without him saying, right, now we can do something. Whereas my daughter would do the typical sort of girly, huggy thing and she's like, no. I have... I mean, I am like... In my very, very early days, I had a cocker spaniel that came that had what was called at the time the rage syndrome. Mm-hmm. And... And it was my... The first case that I... I had to... Pretty much go back to school and study what the hell is going on and why this is happening because it had no sense. It... It was so crazy, but that was my very first experience with the breed. Mm-hmm. So, like, when you are at home with... It's a female, right? Yeah. Yeah. What's her name? Pepper. Pepper. So, when you're... Pepper. Pepper. So, when you're with her at home

and you are in the kitchen or the living room and you call her, she comes or no? Before the surgery? Before the surgery... It depends... It has to have really high value for her to come close. It's always had to be really high value for her to want to be near us. Mm-hmm. I mean, you know, we... You can take that quite as a... Oh, you know, it's quite interesting, really, isn't it? Your dog doesn't want to come near you. Um, you know, Susan Garrett's games are all about, you know, getting the dog ready and holding them close and, you know, getting them excited and it just... She just never got them. I mean, they were really... I was really pleased I did the course because I think, you know, she's... She's got some really good skills following it, but... Um... What about the other commands like sit and down, things like that? How... How... How... At the distance, she had a beautiful stop, a beautiful down. Um... But I think, you know, anyone who's had constant back pain... You really... Life is hard work, I think, you know, and I think we didn't realize how much when we're asking her to do things, um, what else was going on in her head? So, but... You know what I'm thinking is like when... When you have the motivation to do something... Mm-hmm. You can go through a lot of difficulties and accomplish it. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So, I have seen dogs that are not one eye blind, but like they're completely blind. Mm-hmm. They're 16 years old. They're crippled from arthritis. Like, just... You just admire the animal still alive and has a life inside. It's not just alive, but it, you know, it has a good spirit about it. Mm-hmm. Clearly, in all sorts of different discomfort just from... from old age, but... But they have the motivation to keep going and to do and to interact. And you call them and they run, in their mind they're running. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And... And somehow... You know, like... I would love to see something about the pepper. Like, because it just... To me, with all my training experience, it's very difficult to understand or... Or to... Mm-hmm. To... To put the... Not wanting to come to you. That it's because of the... Remember, the dogs you're talking about, they were born healthy, they were born happy. They had a lot of history of running and hugs and all the rest of it. Whereas Pippa, from the very moment she was born, would have had a history of, when people touch me, it hurts. Only a little bit. You know, I mean, I think she wasn't... She's not... She's rarely snarly. Mm-hmm.

But there was a pain there. And actually, I'd rather avoid it. You know, she's very avoidant dog. Um... Yeah. So, you know, you think, you know, you know, there's a lot of history. Most dogs, when they get old and arthritis, they're remembering a lot of what went on to the past. Whereas for her, um, you know, it's never been like that. Mm-hmm. And I... I just think if I put an electric collar on her, you know, she's... You know, I can't put... I've never been able to put my hand over her head. Even as a puppy, she's, you know... And I wonder, you know, I'll do lots of, um, uh, Gunder to achieve work. I also wonder if you're carrying a dummy in your mouth, whether that, you know, causes a bit of back pain. You know, there's a whole lot of things that, you know, one, um, you know, um... So... Let me try to put that somehow. I'll try one more time. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. If we have a dog that can sit and can down and can run madly around... Mm-hmm. I promise you that there is no reason why that dog will not be able to come to me. And I'm not talking short collars. I'm not talking prone collars and long lines. It can be done in so many ways. Um... Um... And I am... Like it goes against four years of professional dog training in my head that... That a dog that can run and enjoy and go so madly crazy about running and can do some obedience that we cannot make him come because of discomfort, because it's not trusting to be touched. We can... So it's a trust thing. It's a trust. It's a trust. I don't trust you. Right. Well, I mean, you know, she trusted my son implicitly because she knew there was a strong history that he would be on his PlayStation curled up on the sofa and that, you know, she wouldn't be touched. Right. It is trust. Whereas, you know, if you... You know, when you have a bit of back pain and you carry a bag and you think, oh, I mustn't do that again. Or, you know, you do something, oh, better not do that again. You know, you'd... There are lots of ways that it comes at you. Um... Right. So I tell you what, like I have really... Just really seriously damaged shoulder. I have a bad knee. I am as old as you are. And I've been training protection dogs for pretty much all of my life. That means dogs of any weight, any breed coming 100 kilometers an hour at me, swinging me and jerking me around. But I know that I will continue to do that until I am able. Even though every time I get an impact, I go, ugh. Yeah. So there is a motivation that overrides almost anything, depending what the motivation is. And somehow, in my opinion,

you were not able to create the motivation to convince her that there is a really good reason to come to you. Because I didn't know, I didn't know that she was in, that it was her back pain. Um, I didn't, I don't know. I mean, we don't know what's going on in our dogs. Um, I can touch her. I don't know if she's in pain when I touch her. Um, you know, I think, you know, I've, I've looked when in my nursing career, when I would, you know, be looking after somebody who's in pain, um, somebody else moving you is very different from moving yourself. Mm hmm. Um. Okay. I mean, we, we can leave that one. It's just very interesting one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think it's, I think, you know, they say a huge number of animals that don't do what, what we want them to do. Often there is a pain issue. Um. So there is, okay, we have to stay a little longer on this, I guess. I'm sorry. No, no. I mean, that's what the podcasts are about. So we talk about it. So when you, there, there are two, like, we can put them into different categories, the different kind of pain that actually you can have quite intense level of pain, discomfort. Ongoing. But it's not restricting you from performing something. So I will give an example. For example, if I have to do this motion with my other arm, Mm hmm. That's pretty, no, that's actually, I wouldn't even try because I've tried it many times. Mm hmm. So I cannot do that. But it's your choice. You're choosing what you want to do. No. It's the pain is. No, what I'm saying, you, you choose whether you are in control of that. Correct. To do or not. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Now, if a dog can walk and run, that means they can walk or run towards you. It's what I'm saying. But if it, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Right. But if, if we are asking the dog that has back pain to jump over a no or do some of the agility exercises, then the dog can say, I don't do that. I really badly want to, but I don't do that. I cannot physically cannot anymore, or I cannot from beginning. Right. Mm hmm. So what I'm getting at is that in, in her case, she's capable, but she lacks motivation. It's not based on, I cannot do it. No, no. But I suppose it's motivation or the experience of something unpleasant if she comes close to me, you know, I'm not doing the unpleasantness. The unpleasantness is happening within her. But if I scratch her in the wrong way. Right. Right. And, but that's, that's what I'm saying. So it's not a, um, I mean, I can't explain the physiology of it, but I, you know, I mean, I suppose, you know,

past experiences teach, I mean, I know where you're going with it. What, what, what you're really, and I just saw you, you know, that I understand where you're going with it. Yeah. You're saying that she's physically and very capable to come, but the consequence of coming and what happens when she's right in front of you can cause her pain and therefore she chooses not to come. Yeah. Yeah. And to me, honestly, without trying to insult you, this is, this is an excuse of, of saying, I don't have a recall of my dog because they can come and and they can avoid any, any of the other things, but they can come in any proximity to you. Right. They can come within a meter or two feet or, or five and circle around you instead of making zoomies all the way in the horizon going madly. Now I understand what she was doing. I mean, she's had seven years of me trying to understand what, I mean, what, what was going on. I thought it was a biochemistry thing. And I had, you know, I had sort of toyed with the idea of, of going down that route of having something to sort of calm but in the house, she's fine because in the house, she has choice in the house. She, you know, she, she, um, she has a dog door so she can go in and out when she wants to. Um, she's not, she's not being forced to do something. Um, you know, just as a street dog would, you know, they, they, um, so, so it's only when we start putting pressure on her. And I think what we also have to remember was with pain. What do you mean start putting pressure on her? Pressure as in, as I'm asking you to do this, this is what I want you to do. Um, uh, and I think what we also have to remember when you're in pain, your, your resilience is really down. Um, your ability to cope with other things, you know, your tolerance level is right down. Well, but that's what we said. It's a, it's a matter of motivation. I think we agreed on that. It's a matter of motivation. What's at stake? And can I physically do it even if it's hurting or can I physically cannot do it? Period. So, so if I've got a chicken wing, I, you know, chicken wings, she only ever get, I, I now have a very solid recall on a chicken wing. Um, but I would only ever use a chicken wing if I needed really needs to go to her back. But sometimes she has actually put, she pushes herself so high that even a chicken wing, um, she, I mean, she really pushes herself right high. Yeah. We can walk down the street and there'll be a pigeon on a, on a telephone wire and she will scream at it. Um, and this is after, after the surgery, right?

After the surgery, she's better. I can do some, I do a lot of Leslie McDevitt's, um, uh, pattern games, um, sort of, sort of, sort of, and calming things. And we get, we get more, I get her, I can walk her past more pigeons. But, um, so the thing is she's had, she's had seven years, seven years of history of, of, of, um, um, it, sure. Yeah. So, but she still, before and after the surgery, she continues to make those wild fun runs, right? They're not as bad. They're much, she, she, the, the difference is now, I can say time to come in, she'll come in, which she never would do before the surgery. Very interesting. And the only difference is the surgery. You know, I've done nothing, done nothing different before. We, we go to agility, um, uh, just a very, very basic low level agility. Before her surgery, we got, if, if the rabbits and the pheasants had been out, then she had to do it on the lead because I had no concentration at all. Now I can get a beautiful round with her, um, uh, staying with me and she's beginning to realize it's fun. But beforehand, um, interesting one. And the only difference is the surgery. Um, I don't think, I don't, you don't, you don't look convinced. No, I absolutely, yeah. And I can't even lie. I mean, it absolutely does not make, uh, uh, logical sense, which is fine. I mean, there is sometimes things like that, you know, like it's, it's okay. We cannot, we cannot always convince each other and, and believe in what we say to each other, you know, it's a, and that's fine. Um, tell me, you mentioned service dogs. Tell me, tell me a little bit about the service dog stuff that you do. And so, um, I started, uh, I, I married a man who doesn't like dogs, which was not a good, good, good. Sometimes actually it's the best option. He does like, he says he doesn't like dogs. He does look like, no, but, um, uh, so what we, uh, when the children were a bit older, um, I started, I said, well, let's get a service dog puppy in the house. That's a way of me having a dog in the house. I would rather, uh, the children know this, that I've always said I'd rather have dogs than children. I love my children. Um, uh, but we, I started, uh, puppy walking with one organization. And then, um, uh, what type of service dog? I, I kind of quite familiar with service dogs. I'm sorry, hearing dogs. Hearing dogs. Hearing dogs. So it starts off with hearing dogs a long time ago. Um, and then I did some, a little bit of puppy walking along with, um, we shared a dog. It was a bit unusual, but with medical detection dogs. Um, uh, and now I do a little bit for, I did do a training,

uh, with an organization called PACT who's, uh, they're, um, associated to a bigger organization, the ABTC. Uh, so I trained to be a dog trainer, uh, but my health work actually takes me too much time. So I, I don't actually do, I do very little training. Um, but what, but that's allowed me into, now I help out with a, and I do a little bit of training with an organization, which is under the umbrella of the, I forget the right, Assistance Dogs UK, which is sort of the main UK umbrella. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and they've had a voluntary branch. There's one small voluntary organizations where I go into a home and I spend time with a family, one family and help them with their dog. Um, and they've, they are, they've been force free for a long time. So I've always, I've, I've only spent a very short time in a, in a non force free world. Um, with my, I, one of the hearing dogs we adopted because she failed. Um, I went to see a local, I needed help with her recall. Um, it's a bit of a theme here. Um, uh, I went to see a local gundog trainer that I was recommended. He'd had 40 years of training. Um, and the third time I took this dog to the training ground, my dog hid at the back of the car when we, and I just thought for me as a nurse, it just felt this didn't feel right at all. He was a traditional trainer. Um, I mean, I'm going to interrupt here, but anytime a dog hides behind the car, it doesn't matter what kind of training it is. It's, it's a bad sign, right? I mean, there is no. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, I was naive at the time and I, you know, I've been told and what shocked me actually was he said, well, let's go into the rabbit pen. And he'd be training for 40 years. This guy, um, we sat in the rabbit pen and she just sat in the corner and he's still, I don't know why she's not chasing the rabbits. I think she's scared. You know, I thought the anyway, so that was my, I thought I need to find, and then someone was able to put me in touch with Helen Phillips, um, up in Evesham. So, um, and that suited my, my style of how I viewed life. Um, Do you have competitions, like the hunting competition, like in the States is a, it's a big thing. I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't know much about it. The reason I'm asking about are there competitions is because there is something super special about competition because that's where all the talk stops and you either can perform or cannot. And if you cannot, you can have endless excuses why today and why the next year, the same day things did not happen for you. But, um, um, so

Helen, has she done competition? Has she compared her skills to other hunting trainers? Yeah, they do. I mean, I don't know, I don't know what level, but they often talk about it within, there's quite a large group of them. Um, um, I know Sarah competes, Sarah Hanson competes. Um, and there's a lady. So, because I like, if I'm you and even if I'm not you now, I'm very curious. So, even if it's after the podcast and few days, whatever, but I, I know I'm going to do some research on these people because that's kind of what I do. I like to, if somebody tells me I can do that, or I can do that better than you, or I can do it just as good as you, but in a way better approach, I'm all for it. I'm like, let's go, show me, please teach me. And, but when we have a group of people that agree on something, doesn't necessarily mean that this can be, or, or, you know, like, again, competition is a beautiful place that you either can show it and you can show it consistently. It's not like the one hit song. We all can have this stars that line up, but if, if I was to go to some, somebody to learn and to do hunting, I would make two choices. How far I can go as what would be acceptable levels of balanced or some aversive training, if that's what they do. Because like, as you said, like, and there is, or there should be a place and that place may vary for person to person, but everybody has a place where they said, this is no, I don't do that. And then you have the other side, where is the kind of like more of a, your group of the force free style of training that we can play around with the idea of hunting but we are very tolerant if it doesn't really work today the way we want to. And so, so who's that for? Is that for the dog's welfare or is it for the, the handler's ego? Yeah. So again, that, that we, we can definitely go there, but before we get there, there is the claim that force free can do as good or better. So that's kind of where I want to stay for a moment. Okay. And that's why I'm bringing competition and that's why I'm asking of Helen's credential accomplishments, you know, like, because like Can I, can I just say so, um, of course, uh, William, I've quoted this, I'm sure you've read it. So William Storm recently wrote a book called The Status Game. I really recommend you, anybody who's interested reads it. Um, he's basically looked at the research of, uh, the human narrative from years and years ago. Basically, if you look at all our human drive, we are driven to stay in our social groups. We need status and we're petrified of humiliation and what whichever tribe we choose,

we try to make sure that we have a decent status within that tribe. We want to push ourself up a bit. Uh, we don't want to be too high. Um, well, we'd like to be high, but then it becomes a bit toxic. We are petrified of humiliation and we choose the rules of the tribe that we want to associate with as to what gives us status. Um, and it's really interesting actually, because, um, when you look at the sort of the banter that goes on in force free side and I've come, I've, I've, I've come over to have a look at what's going on in, in the more traditional side, because I like it. I'm just, I like to get a picture of what's going on in the world. Um, and, uh, what I, what I see is, and what I think, what, what, what you could say is that the desire for status and the fear of humiliation is clear within all the discussions within the discussions. Um, I think you could divide people into two groups. Are you more fearful? Now, this is not about whether your dog doesn't do what you ask, but people see that your dog doesn't do what you ask. Are you more fearful about people seeing your dog not do what you ask? Or are you more fearful, fearful of people seeing you do something that causes harm or fear to the dog? And I think whichever of those is the more powerful, um, driver within your tribe, you're going to choose that. So if you go to the force free groups and you look at someone coming in and said, Oh, you could do this, you know, you could put a shock collar on and the dog will come back straight away. The feedback is that significantly it felt the welfare of that dog. We won't discuss that here. You go over onto the more traditional training and someone comes up with an idea about how to get a retrieve or whatever using a, um, I'm going to use the word R plus, but, uh, but just because the way I see it, it's a, I feel I train in a way that doesn't know, uh, doesn't knowingly use pain or fear, you know, or versus it's not whether it doesn't happen. It's knowingly uses it. Um, and the feedback you see within a nutrition, that's not going to work. Your dog will just blow you off. You know, that's the, that's the type. And I think, I think if you ask people, which tribe do they choose, you will find that they will, one of those things will be more powerful in, in their thinking. Would you say? It's a very interesting one. Um, I think it's too simplified and it's driving a specific point across the audience, that, that person in that book. I mean, it's everything you're saying. He doesn't, he doesn't talk about

dog training, but specifically he talks about, yeah, he talks, so he, I mean, he doesn't talk about, that's my interpretation, um, of what he's saying. For example, he talks about, uh, an island somewhere where to have the biggest yam was gave you the highest status. So, yam growing was, everybody did it. There were people stole yams, they damaged each other's yams. Um, you know, it's, what, what do you, the tribe that you associate with, what is your measure of what is good? You know, what makes you much more acceptable within that group? I just like to say, actually, I really struck me that the video that you showed originally, um, that I commented on it. I think that was a lovely, it was a lovely interaction between you all. Wasn't it was a really, it felt very relaxed. Everyone was happy. And I think a lot of people might look on that and actually see that as something that they, maybe they don't have that friendship and that warmth. Um, and I think if you, and you compare that with someone, I, I, a politician walking up a, up a set of stairs with a bit of toilet paper stuck to their shoe, they have such a high status and they've, they've, they have such a way with other people that nobody has the confidence to say, you know, you've got some toilet paper stuck to your shoe. Right. Whereas, you know, if it, whereas if you compare it with the, the warmth and the, the, the, the enjoyment, you know, people search for different status. Yeah. So I'll tell you what, like, and I, I, I don't subscribe to tribes. Like I, uh, um, we, we have, we do naturally. We, we, I mean, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we have, it's totally self in, uh, what's the word? We have no, we have no control of it. That's the way we, I mean, they may not be defined tribes, but we choose to be around people who support the same, um, correct. We, we are social animals and we're tribal. We're social animals. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's in the DNA. Yeah. That's, that's for sure. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So, so, I mean, you know, they can move around, but, um, so that, the dog that you're talking about in that video, she, she walks all over me every day. The one that you gave the sausage to? Of course. Yeah. She knows that she has my number and she can get away with whatever the hell she wants to. Any moment, any moment of the day, she knows that in the house she can check and scan all the counters. She can pick up, she has a thing about picking the hand towels, like around the kitchen and hide them. And I can stop her. I have no problem stopping her. It can be super easy to do.

Mm-hmm . But it's okay not to. Yeah. It's not a, there is nothing in, she's not in danger. Uh, it's just a hand towel that she rips apart that we have hundreds of them. And she's having a blast trying to sneak away and do things. And I'm totally fine with that. Now, having said that, there is times and places where I can say, that's off limit. Mm-hmm . And she will push the boundary. She's like, what do you mean that's off limit? I owe you. I can do whatever the hell I want, because that's what I do every day since I'm born. Mm-hmm . And then we can have a little conversation. And then she's like, okay, I will give it up. Mm-hmm . It doesn't put me in a balance trainer or force free trainer. I'm definitely not force free trainer. Yeah. If you can put me somewhere, it would be more of a, of a balance trainer. But there is a, there is a, there is so many misconceptions, but here is one of how we think of somebody that is a balanced trainer. That, that means that I am this very authoritative figure that doesn't give any slack at any moment. And that dog is a soldier that just goes, yes, sir, I'm going to stay on a place. I'm going to heal. I'm not going to touch that. And that's not what goes on in people's homes. There is like, like good dog training is about allowing the most freedom that you can allow with having some borders and limits. Mm-hmm . And, and there is different ways to accomplish that. Um, but everything we do is got to have a consequence, isn't it? However we, however we choose to, to manage those boundaries, um, there will be a consequence to it. Um, you know, if you leave, if you leave your battery, if you plug your phone in overnight to leave it to charge, yes, you'll have a full battery in the morning, but you also might knacker the battery. I live with a physicist. Um, very true. So, um, but you know, before we got so deep out of where I was, okay, sorry. Let's come back to Helen and the hunting dogs and the two groups or three groups or whatever, you know, because that's like, that's a, that's a very easy thing that we don't need. Yeah. I mean, it, this is one thing about studies and canine labs and research and people with PhDs. They have extremely limited opportunities. Yeah. I mean, I think, I think it's, it's about, it's about how you feel about the dog you're training. Um, and I think, you know, in, in other areas, we enjoy our dogs, we enjoy training our dogs that, you know, the dogs that I train alongside, they work over pheasants, you know, they are, they have recall, you know, they have good days

and bad days. You know, every dog has good days and bad days, but the expectation is about, um, you only put the dog in a stage where you know that they can cope with. Um, uh, not quite sure what I'm trying to say here. Um, I, I think competition isn't part of it. You know, competition is one way of getting status. My dog, you know, the Pippa's father run, won every competition in the north at some point, I think, I mean, I don't know, but, um, uh, but that's only one measure of the dog. It's, there was, um, there was a, uh, competition, uh, video competition years ago, long before most people used to do them. One of the, one of the game fairs did it where, um, one of the, somebody, it was throwing a dummy and a walk, walk to heel and everyone had to video it. The three winning dogs were all R plus trained dogs of, of, of, I don't know how many went in and what you could see, they were happy dogs, relaxed, happy dogs. Now I don't, I think, you know, if you're very skilled at training, then what kind of competition again, it was a video competition. There was the, um, um, the, the train that it was throwing a dummy, retriever, it was a blind, um, um, a video competition, a video, video competition. Yeah. I beg your pardon. It was a video competition. So you sent in a video and you got a ticket to the game fair. Yeah. But, but it was really interesting that the three winning dogs were all positively trained dogs. Yeah. And whether that, I mean, I, I, you know, if you're as skilled as you are, I would imagine there are things that you can, you know, your timing will be absolutely fine. But when you look at most trainers and I'm sure, you know, you try, I'm sure you train a huge breadth of trainers. When you look at most. I know, I know you're, you, we're, we're going so many places. We, I promise you we will get there. We will get there. I promise. Is it? Yeah. The, the reason again, I'm bringing competition and I'm talking competition. You, me, Helen and Joe and Kelly and everybody train every day or as long as they want to in every way they can. Every system they subscribe to and they believe to, and then they test their cell themselves and see which one has the best result. Now, the best result in competition does not mean a dog that it's a slave, that it's afraid of its shadow and it's just performing things out of pure fear. That kind of dog will never be successful on, on a high level. You need in, in competition, you need a dog that wants to do it, that understands what they do and are consistent of doing it. Mm-hmm . Within rules that everybody plays with. Mm-hmm . And

the person that wins, it's not necessary. Of course, there is some status that's granted, but besides that, that kind of person will grab the interest of everybody. It's like, what are you doing different than me? That you're successful and your dog is clearly having a blast. And you're beating everybody every year. That, when you have a competition and it's done on a video, we can agree that that's not a competition. Okay. Fair enough. I mean, that just, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, when we're talking about, there is, again, and, and not that I don't know Helen, I don't like, I don't want to put somebody on the spot just because we're having a conversation. But let's say you, you go to somebody that does all four, three training and you're doing something, some kind of sport, some kind of activity that it's very popular. And you may not want to compare yourself to anybody. You may not want to compare your skills to everybody. You may be totally okay with saying, well, yeah, it's not, it's not as good as that other trainer that they do, but they are using some horrible things. And, and I will never do that to my dog. And that's okay. What one of the claims of force free all across the board, being competitions, being pet dog training, being behavior modification, being service dogs, is that force free can be as good, if not better to any other type of training. I mean, it depends what you're measuring, isn't it? You know, it depends. Well, we're measuring, we're comparing. Right. That's what we're doing. We're comparing. So if I'm looking at a service dog, I'm looking at a dog that's relaxed and happy, and that is able to cope with the stresses of what's going on, is not reacting to things, has got all the, all the behaviors, you know, in that you would expect. And that, you know, I know you can train those with, there are lots of different ways of training them, but you know that if you're doing it force free, that you're allowing the confidence of that dog to, to be maintained. Whereas most people, when they start using aversives, they're not going to be using them well. I'm leaping around. I think her name's Laura Donaldson. She's got a lovely picture of an orchid and a dandelion. Have you seen that? Cool. And I think her name is Laura Donaldson. She does a lot about trauma in dogs. Some dogs are like dandelions. In fact, some, you know, humans like dandelions. You know, you can trample on them. You can, you know, the field can be whatever, the dandelion will always come up. And those dogs are incredibly resilient. And those

humans are incredibly resilient. You know, they can take whatever comes and they will get through. Some dogs and some humans are like orchids. You have to nurture them and make sure you know what you're doing with them and really make sure they're in the right environment for them to grow. And I think when you look at the dandelions, humans, whatever you do to them, they'll get through. Yeah. Um, so again, I wouldn't, I would never argue that there is no place for force free training. The, like, at least for the moment, my, my argument and the conversation I want to have is that that claim that force free can be as good or better. But it hasn't happened in competition. And I'm talking in dog competition, not so. So there is... Do you think that's the best that there's not nothing? Hold on. There is, I will tell you what I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There is few dog competitions that are very easy to control. Agility is one of them. Fly ball, dancing. There is a competition that you like to put it very kind of in a good analogy. It's like if you have a piece of food, you can control the dog and you can give them exactly how much you want. And you can give it exactly when you want to. But if you start tugging with a dog and you make them a little frustrated and a little angry and you let them win, they have to... Like there is some agreement that needs to be made. And the way you will approach one game versus how you would approach something with the food can be... You will not be able to do the same things. So in certain dog sports, the dog has the opportunity to make choices of there is a really big price and that brings a lot of fun. And there is a lot of fun. And there is a lot of fun. And there is a lot of fun. And there is the handler or the trainer or the owner or the guardian, whatever name you want, that can not match that big price. So when you put it like this, there is a certain type of training. And I'm not saying if you can do it force-free. I've done it force-free. But... Force-free has not... Like for... The idea of force-free starts in the early 80s, becomes very popular towards the eight of the 80s, 90s and 2000. All of a sudden, we start to ban and start to claim that there is no need of using this primitive ways of treating dogs. When you say primitive, I'm not sure... With the claim that we can do all that you're doing in a way more

friendly way, humane way, ethical way, fear-free and so on, force-free. But... Up to today, 2024 February, that's still a claim that doesn't have any basis, any grounds to stand on. This has not been... Like dog trainers are very strange people, especially people that compete. They will do anything. Like if you convince somebody that something will work better than something else. And they can do better in competition than most of the rest of the people. They will adopt that approach in... The same second. There is no reason for them not to. There is no reason for them to be stuck in, no, I'm going to do it my way and I'm going to just keep banging my head in the wall while everybody is surpassing me in training and in competition. Why are you doing... Why is anybody doing it in the first place? You know, why... I suppose I'm coming from a place of... There's that argument. I mean, I can't argue yes or no. I have no experience in that level of training. So you're asking why competitions? Yes. You know, who's benefit is the competition? Very good question. So before I answer that one, because I love to answer that one. I want to keep you in what I was talking about. Okay. Okay. I'm listening. Right. When you have a claim and you cannot back it up, then no matter how much you put on paper, no matter how many PhDs you have, if you cannot show me that this, you can do it, then we can agree that that's only words. I don't know. I mean, I have no experience at that level of training. So I can't... No, no, but I'm saying like... I don't even have a specific... And I would like to know why anybody's doing it in the first place. You know, are people putting their ego above their dog's welfare, whatever, however way they're training? You know, that's what I would question. So, but yes, I'll give you my take on that, because it's a good one. I don't know. Um... But if you claim that you can do better than this group, but you never do it, can we agree that you're only just talking? I have no idea about competitions. I, all I can say within the service dog, um, I don't like the call the word industry, because that's, that just... But it's not about... It's a simple question. Like a really simple question. I'm claiming... I'm claiming that I can paint a house better than you. I'm sure you could. I can't paint. But I never, actually, you've never seen me paint a house better than you. I'm just telling you that over and over again for 20 years that I can do it better than you. And I would... But I have never proven it to you. It doesn't worry me. You know, I suppose it, it doesn't, does it bother me?

No, would you... So you would, if you want... Okay, let's make it something more important. Okay. I don't want to dance around it. Like there's a good way to answer it. If you are going to a doctor or a dentist, and they tell you, I can do this better than anybody, that procedure. I'd worry that they were trying to tell me that. But they have... They're saying there is a modern way. There is a much better way than what people do today. And it's pain-free, fear-free. It's... It works. There is many studies behind it. But you haven't seen it work. Hmm. Hmm. For 20 years. And it's not something that it's... You take lightly. It's something that it's important. It's... Let's say it's a matter of curing a cancer or not. Mm-hmm. Would you... Go with the people that actually, at the moment, are successful? Or would you pick that doctor that is claiming this for 20 years, but he has not done it? Forget about competition in docs. Yeah. Yeah. I mean... Would you go with that doctor? When it's... When it's life-threatening situation? It depends what the other options are. I think... I... The thing is, it's... It's a... That's a... I see... It depends what you're comparing... You know, are we comparing apples and pears? You know, it's about... What are we trying to prove here? We're trying to prove something. I'm saying... I'm saying I can... What kind of games you like to play? What are you... Anything that you're good at? Um... What are games? You know, I've got my mind... Let's say you're a grandmaster in chess. Let's imagine that. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Fair enough. Yeah. I mean, like... Like grandmaster, like... Okay. Above... The excellent level. Okay. That'd be a bit weird, but yeah. And I start to tell people that I... I have a really good way. I've come up with some... Completely radical approach. Of playing chess. And I can beat any grandmaster any day. But I never sit down on a table to play chess with any of them. What do you make out of that? Yeah. So that's one specific person without any evidence of one specific thing. So I agree with you. I, you know, I would stick with where, you know, where I was. But I think, you know, when... I suppose it depends when we're going back to the force free versus traditional methods, you know, what are we comparing what with? You know, we're not looking... We're looking at... If we're looking at the mental health of the dog. No, no, we absolutely can look at the mental health. It's the first... The very first thing we want to look at. Because I wanna... We will get to ethical. There is definitely...

Something to be talked very seriously about. As far as how far you go and what is ethical and where we draw the line in the sand and so on. But for right now... One of the claims of force free is that it can be at least as good, if not better. All across the board in doctrine. Well, I suppose it depends who's making that claim. Is that one person making that claim or is it just a general vibe? You know, it's sort of... And what is better? You know, one person's better... Jenny, but I'm not saying what is better. We're not talking about yet about what is better. I'm talking about what is... Which one is better in terms of results. We're just talking results right now. Nothing... We're not talking about ethics, morals, nothing else. We're just talking purely results. And the force free community, as a group, the whole group has... I mean, you know, there's a wide spectrum in that group. So I suppose it's like... It's very easy, isn't it, to say that another group is saying that when actually we're all very different within it. I think, you know, when... When you know, it's very easy to say someone who's not part of your tribe, I use the word tribe very, very... I don't use another word really. You know, it's... It's... I don't... I'm trying to say... I... It's like it's a competition. You know, mine is better than yours. And actually, we're not looking at what's the best for the welfare of the dog. Right now, we are not. We're just talking about which way... Which approach can be better? So I would always look at the welfare of the dog first before... What is best for the dog? I would never go into a home with a family and say, right, you've got to do this way or that way. I say, look, you know, what's going on for this child? What, you know, what's the best way that we can make progress? Yes. And that's great. I mean, that's... That's how it should be. Hmm. And I think... But we can get to that point, but you still are avoiding what I'm trying to ask you. I don't know enough about... I can't answer the question. That's why I'm talking about a chess. I'm talking about hospitals. I'm talking... I'm trying to give you many examples. When somebody's claiming that they're really good at something... I mean, it has to be... But they can never prove it. Well, I mean... It's a very simple question that I have. I watched Sarah Hansen training her dogs and I'm like, wow. You know... Okay, but you're going back to Sarah and to Helen and whatever. I'm talking about absolutely... Don't imagine dogs. Don't imagine anything. Just... Somebody is making a claim about... Anything. I can do it better... than you. Using my approach.

Using my technique. Using my whatever. And they talk about it for a very long time. Mm-hmm. But they never have done it. I mean, it's... Absolutely. I mean, you know, if somebody's never actually done it, then... Then... You know, but it depends what you're asking. Have they done? I think the answer is super simple. Extremely simple. And you somehow saw fighting within yourself, even though you are... You know the answer very... It's just as clear as possible. I would never use aversives on... I have a... But that's not what I'm asking you. I'm not asking you if you use aversives or not. I'm talking about something totally abstract. Of course. Totally fictitious. Okay. Well, something... Yeah. I mean, if that's what you want me to get that answer. Of course, if nobody's got experience at it, I'd go with someone who has got experience. But I would still want to know what was going on there. I'm... You know... I'm not sure. I'm not... I really... I'm not quite sure which corner you're trying to put me in. Yeah, I'm not... I... Again... If... If we have... If somebody claims something... That I can do this... Are you thinking about somebody specifically? No. I mean... No, I'm trying to... Actually, I'm trying to put it as open as possible for you, so you... So you can stop thinking about force-free and balance and electric colors. I'm trying to take you out of there. Okay. And asking you if somebody says, I can do this better than everybody. I'd need evidence. You need evidence. That's it. That's where we are. Have we got that? Have we got that? So easy. So easy. But yes, so I need... I would need evidence if someone said they could do something. But you know that... And everybody's full of hot air, aren't you? You know, we... You know, we... Our politicians are full of hot air and say that they're going to do this, that and the other. Absolutely. Absolutely. So that's... One of the problems with force-free is the moment there is evidence evidence that can be demonstrated that I can have a conversation as I'm having with you with somebody really big... So you're talking about scientific written down evidence? Mm-mm. Mm-mm. No. No. No. The scientific written down evidence specifically in the dog industry is a... It's truly a fraud. But we don't want to go there right now. There's no point of that. Mm-mm. Mm-mm. I would love to have that conversation and we can get to it later. Science changes all the time. Absolutely, yeah. At one point, the sun was going around the earth, right? That's... That's what it was. That was science at that point. I don't know. I don't even... I know nothing about... Okay. I can tell you about...

I can tell you about newborns and how... Newborns used to be... So in the 60s, the advice was to nurse newborns on their front because they settled better. Okay. Right. In the 60s also, there was newborn commercials the nurses were giving to the patients. You can YouTube them. And it was a healthy thing to do. Oh, gosh, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, you know, it's... That was science. Yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah. So I don't want to... The thing is, you can only go... Science moves. That's the cool thing about science. No matter how much somebody's going to pull the rug and try to get it stuck at some place, they can do that for so long. Eventually, it's going to move on. Yeah. You know, they can burn whatever the... Not Copernicus, whatever, you know. I mean, but you cannot stop evolution. It's just... You cannot. But we need to leave science alone because of that, because it evolves just like everything else. Yeah. Okay. We're comparing two apples. Okay. And we said that we need evidence. And competition allows you to have evidence. Like you're a very good... Very good judo fighter. But that's only one measure. You're really good at judo. Mm-hmm. And you claim that you've learned from whatever school and you can beat everybody. And eventually... Are you happy? Mm-hmm? Are you happy? You may be good at judo, but are you happy? It's happiness that gives you a long life. Again, like the... We have to pass that first. We have to... We have to come to this. We have to pass it so we can talk to... I know what you want to talk about. And I want to get there too, but we cannot get there before... Okay. I'm listening. So you have a black belt in judo. Mm-hmm. Somebody gave it to you. And you think that you're really good at it. Mm-hmm. And you compare yourself. You go to a competition. And... You realize that... You're not as good as you think you are. Mm-hmm. And you go back and you train more. With the same school, with the same people. Mm-hmm. You give your heart. You do the best you can. And they promise you that you're going to be better. You go to competition and you're not again. So anything that those people, those coaches of yours are telling you and making you do... As a promise that you can do better against somebody else in competition. Mm-hmm. Have no ground. It's an illusion, if you want. Mm-hmm. Eventually you realize that it's just not going to happen. This is how the importance of competition is. Like you have... Even if you don't understand martial arts, I'm sure you have seen at one point in time where... Mm-hmm. ...somebody used this energy power and just goes like this. And 20 people just crumble on the ground. Mm-hmm.

And they do it over and over again. And all of a sudden they think that they can go and fight and demonstrate it. And they fail. But quickly, very quickly. If they didn't fail, everybody that is fighting would be lined up at their door to learn that magical skill. I'd just start knitting, I think, instead. I think I wouldn't be motivated. Okay. So. We... We... I think we cannot get anywhere here, right? Yeah. I think... Because, I mean, your life is about competition, isn't it? Mm-mm. And I am... Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Okay. Well, your... Competition is part of your life, presumably. Um... And competition is part of my life for that reason. Mm-hmm. Because I want to measure myself. Mm-hmm. I want to know if my shit works against somebody else's. I want to know... Gives you... Gives you status? No. No. No. I... I am spending... I am spending... A lot of time... To master... Something. Anything. Anything. Anything. Mm-hmm. I want to come... I want to take from anywhere anything... And I want to be very good at something. Mm-hmm. I want to compare... What works and what does not work. Mm-hmm. If we don't compare what works and what doesn't work... That's a very logical mind, isn't it? You know... I... It's very simple. And it has nothing to do with status. Well, it's a... It's a feeling of self-worth, isn't it? You know, it... It may... I say this is probably the wrong word. But it's a feeling of self-worth. Mm-hmm. Okay. I'm going to make a last attempt. And then we move on. Because it's... I mean, it's fun. This is fun. I hope you're having fun with this. Because I am. Have you... Have you seen a video? Let's... Let's talk mathematics. Okay. So let's say you have... Let's say I'm writing all these crazy formulas. I have, like, this huge blackboard... And I'm making... Your Einstein has got the... Yeah. I have a whole different... Just screw relativity and quantum physics. I just came up with a thing. Yeah. I'm very impressed. And I'm spending all of my life to prove that that is it. Mm-hmm. And I'm telling you that I have that theory. Mm-hmm. I'm impressed. That puts everything together. Mm-hmm. And I promise you that I'm... You know, you can challenge me. Because that's what science is about. Mm-hmm. You say, hey, I have an idea. And I can prove it. Mm-hmm. And in real science, you want to be... You want to challenge your ideas. Mm-hmm. And you're... So... Then you know if it works and you're not. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But if I never let you challenge my idea and my theory... Mm-hmm. But I just... Can't stop talking about it.

Convincing people. But nobody ever, ever... Mm-hmm. Gets to see it happen. Happening. How much respect does a scientist you will have towards me? Yeah. No, so you need to be challenged by your peers... To be able to... Demonstrate the skills that you've got. Without the challenge... You know, you could sit in your bedroom and... And it has nothing to do with... Can you say that it has nothing to do with status? Um... You're searching for value. We're all searching for value in our lives. Status is probably the wrong word. But it's... But are we accepted... Or being accepted? We do things to be accepted. I can tell you a story, actually. It's really... So, um... A few years ago... Uh... There was a young lad that I was asked to go and help... Who... Uh... Who had really bad behaviour problems at school. He was always the one causing... There was always trouble. Wherever he was around, there was always trouble. Um... And I went to his house... Um... Uh... With his family. And we... I had some little figures. And we played out what was going on. Why was he always in trouble? Uh... Well, you know... We had some little figures. So, um... He... We pretended one of them was called... Um... I don't know what it's called... Um... John and... All the kids in his class. Yeah. And as he played... As he played it out... What it... What appeared is that he loved the affirmation of rescuing somebody. So, what he was doing at school is he would go in... He'd cause a ruckus and then he'd rescue someone. And he got affirmation for the rescue. It was really reinforced. So... So that his behaviour was getting worse and worse because he just loved... Um... That... That rescuing... That really gave him a big kick. Gave himself worse. Um... And we searched for it different... I mean, in the nursing profession, it's... There's a few... There's one recently... And I'm sure you have them in America. Uh... There's a nurse recently gone to prison for life. Uh... Because she... It's... I mean, it's... You know, the most vulnerable children... Um... How can I say this? Um... You know, they... They... They make children ill so that they can rescue them. Right. And some children have died. Yeah. You know, that can be toxic. You know, that's a toxic... And actually something's gone badly wrong that someone does that. But I think we all... We're all searching for some self-worth somewhere. Um... Yeah. That's... That's... I... I cannot disagree with that. Right. I mean, if... If we don't... I'm sure there are people that don't. But that would be a... That would be a sad... Mm... Thing to... To live your life that way. Mm... I... I think. I don't know. Mm... When you have competition... I don't...

One of the things that got me with... Your comment on the... On that video... On social media... Which... You're not like... You're by no means any exception. This is... Like what we are talking about. This is... A conversation that... Mm... Um... Very rarely happen between... People on the other side. Mm... But... It's a conversation that... I'm sure... Both sides want to have. Mm-hmm. What got me in your comment... Again, it's not an exception. This is a very common thing. Is that... Uh... It's a claim... Of force free. Again. That... If it's failing... You... Suck as a trainer. You don't understand... The science... Of training. You're rushing it. You're basically not doing it... Right. Because you... If you're doing it right... It wouldn't... It would succeed. That's the claim of force free. You say? Yeah. Yeah. I mean... That is... That is your claim. And that is the claim... Of... Of the video that you say. I can... I can... Hold on. I mean... I... I... I... I... I... Unfortunately, because... The teaching of force free... Needs a much deeper understanding... Of how the world is for the dog... It seems very sad to maintain the ignorance of... Followers... By teaching them a training narrative that is 30 years old. Did I write that? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Despite most people... When they take the time to learn... And now it's with capital bold... With the right support... Yeah. Okay. Find the approach... Infinitely more rewarding relationship with their dogs. The most tragic of all is that the dogs trained with aversive... Will continue to suffer necessarily... In the name of obedience. In the name of obedience. There is... There is some... Something that I cannot disagree with... Mm-hmm. But... Even the video link that you put there... Mm-hmm. Still brings this... Few points. Force free takes time. Yeah. You disagree with that too. You need to understand science. Mm-hmm. You need to... If... If... If... You don't have the answer... You need to seek... From your... Tribe... Somebody that... Has a better understanding. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But... Ultimately... If you somehow master it... It will be better than anything else. That claim... Has not been... Up to today... Proven. How can it be measured? I mean... It's a... Competition. It's the only way. That's the only reasonable way. But what... What does competition show? It shows the dog will do what you ask when you want to ask it. It doesn't show whether that dog... How that dog's feeling about it. It doesn't show whether that dog is doing it because it wants it really well. Yes, it does. Of course it does. Of course it does. Of course it does. Of course it does. Of course it does. So I will tell you the sport...

One of the sports that I compete with in. Mm-hmm. You have... You have tracking... You have obedience... You have protection. Mm-hmm. And... The dog that wins... Or the ideal dog... The goal... The objective... Of the competition is... Mm-hmm. To show a dog... That... Has very clear understanding of the behaviors... They're asked to perform. They don't get confused. They're very reliable. They don't go off on a tangent and do something... That they like to do... When they're told to do something else. Mm-hmm. They're... But... They... Are... Not suppressed. They do not show... Avoidance. They're extremely animated. And... If for some reason... We have two identical dogs... Like imagine two dogs... That are walking next to a person. And they're very precise. Identically precise. To... Exactly what the rule requires. But the one dog... Has that mental state of... I don't like doing this. I have a little bit of fear. I wish I'm doing something else. And... I wish I'm doing something else. And... I wish I'm doing something else. It has that low head. It has those ears a little bit. It has... You can see it. You can feel it. That the emotional state is the one that you... Always compare that training with. And then you have another dog. identical. That actually... Is very confident. And then... interact interact interact interact interact interact interact interact interact interact interact interact interact interact interact interact interact interact interact interact It has that low head, it has those ears a little bit, it has clearly, you can see it, you can feel it. The emotional state is the one that you always compare that training with. And then you have another dog, identical, that actually is very proud, is very comfortable. The ears are up, there is no yawning, there is no leaping, there is no scratching, there is no tail tucked. It's like in any possible way you look at it, that dog clearly shows understanding of what to do, clearly wants to do it. And absolutely, 100%, there is no fear, no avoidance, no stress. That actually is possible in dog training. And you will not be able to tell how that dog is trained if you only watch the dog in a competition. What's the dog like when it gets up in the morning and when it's, you know, there's a whole, what's a dog like the rest of its life? Say that again. So, in competition is very specific, but what is the dog like when it gets up in the morning, when it meets its friends, when it goes for its walk? You know, it's sort of, you know, that is a picture of how the dog is generally, rather than just in competition. Have I missed the point? You do a little bit.

So, I told you, my dog walks all over me. I told you that she can take, I mean, I just described her for a few minutes, how she behaves in the house. Right? She's the queen of the house. But we can do competition. The, like, if we leave outside the competition, the life and what the dog does. Mm-hmm. And just stay on this for a moment. We say, okay, there is a competition. There is a requirement. There is a rule book. That dog needs to do A, B, C, D. And every dog needs to do A, B, C, D. The dog that shows suppression, that works through a bad mental state, that shows fear, that shows avoidance, that shows stress, in any way cannot... It doesn't matter how it's trained. And I can argue that you can accomplish stress, avoidance, in a bad emotional state without ever using any aversive. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Strictly true positive reinforcement, when you create enough conflict and true confusion, that's the end result. But regardless how the dog is trained, when you see a dog and you compare it, you say, well, this dog does equally good as everybody else, but he doesn't show all these bad traits that we are not interested in. I'm not interested in somebody becoming a world championship with a dog that is like, I have to do this thing. I'm a slave. I'm going to just be myself. And if I have a choice, I will not be doing this. But here I am because I have no choice. That dog can never, ever, ever be in a winning place. Mm-hmm. And the reason it cannot be is because once you are on that level, then it's human nature. Everybody looks up to you and say, well, he does it better, as reliable, as clear, stress-free. Fear-free, fear-free, animation, all the things that you can think of, all the good things. It's a whole package. And they do it. And the rest are like, well, how do they do that? We want to be there because even if we don't like what they do, we have to be there because this is the best option. In competition, it is very important. It's actually, I cannot be explicit enough how important it is that the dog has to want to do and should not show avoidance and stress. That's not what it's about. If the two dogs make the same performance but the one shows that negative side, they can never be above the other dog for that reason. Because if the judges decide to put them there, they understand that everybody will be like, how do you do that? And now everybody starts to do bad things to their dogs because the outcome comes the same. So you've got quite a small group of people there who are driven to achieve that competition level, haven't you?

Say that again. You've got a quite, it's quite a small group of people who are driven for that competition level, who are aiming for that level of achievement. Small group to the billions of dogs and homeowners, for sure. For sure. But it's a, competition has an interesting place because it's your, like training for competition and then testing what you do. So it's really like your science lab. Like you can have somebody that's... Very specific, isn't it? Hmm? Very specific. You know, if you've got Bertie the guide dog... No, no, I can tell you about guide dogs. I've done this, I'm a licensed instructor for six years in guide dogs, so we can go there for sure. Yeah. What that training, everything is animal learning and training. It's... Everything that you have learned and you practice in your work with the kids and the families has been tried and experimented with animals prior to. And then when it gets to a point where it becomes more... I mean, there is a huge difference. At some point, animals cannot be instructed as humans and they cannot think abstract and so on. So, yes, there is a movement forward when we, you know, but the basic foundation of psychology comes from animal study. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well, yeah, so... Yeah. There are some human studies that feed into animal studies, you know, when you're looking at trauma. But, yeah, a lot of it has come. And appalling experiments. When you look at what Pavlov did to his dogs, you know, it's horrific, really, to think, you know, we need to use the information, but he was pretty cruel to his animals, wasn't he? He actually was not. He was... Yeah. I mean, that's the information I've got, you know. Yeah, exactly. That's a kind of assumption. There have been way more unethical studies than what Pavlov did with the dogs. I just saw some films of the dogs. Anyway. Right. People would have to check that out for themselves, but... Right. Now, if that was not the case, if we didn't know anything about classical conditioning today, I actually... I mean, we will be very much behind in understanding how to change, how to control behavior. We will be in, you know, like, medieval ages. It's interesting, actually, because certainly the conversations I have with people now, it's classical condition. I mean, we understand... It's important to understand the principles of it, but actually, you look at... And when you look at managing children in class as well, and managing children with behavior issues, you're looking at how can we do this with a positive way? And the next step is what's going on in the environment. You ignore everything else.

How do we change the environment for this child to manage what's going on? You know, if a child comes to school and is hitting the kids at school, but actually the parents are arguing at home all night, and he's petrified at home and comes to school for a break, and then just has to let out, then there's absolutely no point in doing behavior modification on the child. And what's really depressing, actually, certainly in the UK, is that they don't get any mental health support while they're being exposed to domestic violence, you know. Yeah, so to come back to, like, your original question, at least for the moment, was how competition has any influence to what you're doing every day and how you treat your dogs? And what competitions, like, not all competitions, again, there are certain competitions that revolve around very, very strong competing reinforcers. Competing reinforcers means I have something, but whatever is out there is of way higher value. So how do I control your behavior? And how do I control your behavior? On top of that, it's just to control the behavior, but how do I control it? So you are stress-fear, fear-free, not avoidance, not in all these negative states. This is knowledge, and that's why I'm saying that it's really like a science lab, that you cannot drive it anywhere. You cannot start with an outcome and design the study so it can prove the point. You can do whatever you want. Is it real life? For sure. Is it real life for most, you know, as far as, for most, you know, you're hugely focused on your dog. The two of you are working together. You're working together for a goal. Most pet owners and most people, the dog is just around them. Right. And it's a very different environment where you're focused on your dog and working together as a team and you value each other compared to what is real life. Yeah. Even for a service dog. Right. So here is the direct example. Because of my experience preparing for this kind of competition, I am beyond certain that at any stage in the life of your dog, your dog, I would have made her come. And I would have made her not be afraid, not be on herself, not be stressed, not be, you know, looking at superstitious like, oh, but actually just come. This is what. I mean, you're using words, you know, we can't ever prove it. Yeah. Yeah. No, but that's what the competition does. It proves it. But it proves it with very specific dogs. You know, you choose the dog that's going to make the competition, don't you? You get your dandelion. You get your, you know, you choose the dog that has those skills.

You can see it from the, I'm sure you see it when they first come out as puppies, don't you? The one, you know, you're going to select the ones that are going to make that progress. You know, I used to see it with the service dogs. You know, you'd have a whole litter of puppies. And maybe only one of that litter was going to make it to be there because the rest, you know, the rest were all kids and were a bit stressed on the bus or, you know, a bit barky at something. A hundred percent. There is a, there is a individual limits in every way. No question about that. So, so your lab is self-selected, isn't it? It's a, so you, you, you said that I'm a competition driven. I don't know. I, that's what I see. Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure. But I trained pet dogs since the eighties. Mm-hmm. And I teach other trainers and pet owners how to teach pet dogs. Mm-hmm. And I am applying everything that I play around and test and experiment with. And I see that it works compared to the best of the best. Mm-hmm. With those dogs. That's all I'm doing. That they're not different. That there is no. But I mean, every, whether, however you train, you will have a dropout within, you know, if it's pet owners coming to you or owners coming to you, those that engage with how you train will stay with you. You know, just like with any trainer. And those that don't really get it or it doesn't fit with their ethos. You know, whenever you provide a service. I mean, I know very well with the services I provide that if they don't get what I'm supporting them with, then they just don't come back. And that's a client. And that's the relationship between me and the client, right? Mm-hmm. So if I understand what you want to accomplish, then we need to come to understanding also in agreement. What are the big no's for you and what you're okay with. Mm-hmm. If you're my client, I have no interest to do something to you or your dog that you're against. That's, that's, I would, I would be starving to death. I will not have clients. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And. But they see you have success and they, and so they want to follow what you offer. Correct. Correct. So as much as you think that you're not going to want to work with me. It is on you to decide what you want with your dog and how you want it done. And you can change it at any given moment. Mm. But I suppose it's, you know, people, we do self-select because we choose, we choose the trainers who fit, you know, and its effects from how we were raised as children, whether it sits comfortably with how you're teaching.

You know, we will, we will, we will select trainers that, that offer the style of training. We, we, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy to some extent because we, you know, the confirmation bias of, you know, I like this trainer because he, he teaches how I like to, to be taught. Um, and therefore you progress together. So, so to, to, to, again, like to be successful in dog training, in competition, you cannot afford the dog not to feel good. You cannot afford the dog to be afraid of you. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, that means, do you think I use positive reinforcement? I'm sure you do. Who doesn't? Mm. Right? Do you think you don't use negative reinforcement? There, I certainly... What do you think is negative reinforcement? A negative reinforcement? Like in, in, in general words, I, I can help you. So, so, so you have the four quadrants and, sorry, I, I should know this off by heart. Um, uh, so you have your, so negative reinforcement is removing something so the behavior increases. Correct. Correct. So, do you think you use negative reinforcement? Natural life. I'm not, my, my desire to train in a way that I'm not deliberately using something, that causes fear, pain, or pain. So, um, I'm just trying to think of an example of negative reinforcement. Um, it's, it's, it's how it is for the dog. Can I give you an, I'm just thinking, it's all about... No, forget about it. Let's not talk dog. Just talk kids. Let's talk kids. So, so it's, I mean, it's really dog dependent and it's about, does your dog feel safe in how you're training them? Are you aware of how your dog is? That whatever you're doing... But you're going somewhere else. I'm asking you, do you use negative reinforcement? It will, naturally. I mean, I'm going to be using positive punishment. You know, I will be using all the things, but not deliberately. I didn't, I still didn't hear you. Do you use negative reinforcement? I'm sorry, I'm just, I'm just trying, I'm just trying to think. My mind has gone blank. Right. So negative reinforcement is, I feel like I'm at school here. Negative, I will tell you, you said it, okay. I will elaborate a little bit more. Negative reinforcement is, there will be something that's going to happen that you're not going to like. It will be aversive. There will be different level of aversiveness. So a prong collar is negative reinforcement, isn't it? I'm trying to tell you not to think about dogs. Okay, okay, sorry. Because the moment we think dogs, you're going to a place that I cannot argue there. The seatbelt, isn't it? The seatbelt is the classic negative reinforcement.

No, the seatbelt's actually a pretty bad example of negative reinforcement, and I'll tell you why. The seatbelt brings... So when I was a child, there was a man down the road who used to come and try and hug and kiss us. And when we saw him coming, my mother would cross us over the road. Is that negative reinforcement? Say that again, I missed it, sorry. So there was this creepy man down the road, and he used to come and talk to my mother and he... Oh, he was... Yeah. Anyway, so if we saw him coming down the road, we would cross over the other side to avoid him. So, no, that's not negative fear. So, again, there is like quite a few different angles to look over. Like you can even think of a... Let's say you have a five-year-old kid walking, you're walking. And the boy knows to walk with you. It's like, hey, we're walking together. But it's all of a sudden, there is the toy store and he's starting to just lose his mind about this truck. And you're saying, okay, we'll get that, we'll see it, whatever, but let's go. Now you're asking him to go on with you. And the kid says, no, no, it's the truck. And finally, you grab the kid's arm and you take it with you to walk forward. This is negative reinforcement. We're using pressure to make them move. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I should know all this. But it does, yeah. What was the question from him? I mean... The question was, do you use negative reinforcement? And the answer really is, yes, you do. It happens. Just as everybody on planet Earth does. Yeah, it's whether you knowingly do it, you do it in a way to make something happen when you could actually be using something that overall makes progress. Do you say no? Like, do you say, no, don't do that? I used to, but I don't know. You're lying to yourself right now. Like, you're lying to yourself. Just because you have to follow that narrative. That's why. I mean, we are humans. We are, you know, we respond in very human ways. If something bites us, we push them away. You know, that's... So, but the question is, do you say, no, don't do that? Or do you never say that? So, okay. So, I will say it. And I think I should have, next time, I should think of a better way. I should prevent it first. And have... Yeah. So, I am going to do it because I'm a human. And I... And none of us are perfect. But why... Why saying no is imperfect? What is wrong with saying no? Don't do that. Because it's... Because the dog was all... If you're talking about a dog jumping up... We're talking about anything. We're talking humans. Yeah. Forget the dogs.

So, if we've done something already that we've got to unlearn what we've just done, it's far better to build up a motor pattern. I play the violin. It's not very nice. It really isn't very nice. It's very... It's a bit like killing cats. If I learn the wrong finger pattern, it sounds horrible. And if I keep on repeating that behavior, that finger pattern, it continues to sound horrible. It's far better to start off by doing the right thing and learn that than it is to keep on making a mistake. Does that make sense? That makes sense for sure, but you're not answering if you're going to use... Do you use no or you don't, right? I do use... I mean, yeah. Because you're saying... You're going around how... What strategies you can have... I don't like it, but I do. So you can avoid to say no. That's what you're talking about. I don't like it, but I'm human and I do. And tell me what you don't like about saying no. Because I've let something happen that shouldn't have... That I haven't been on top of whatever it was. You know, the behavior is still being repeated. So you don't see any positive side of saying no. They've got my attention, you know. Okay. So let me give you an example. Let's say I put... I blindfold you. Okay. And I tell you, I'm going to guide you... Mm-hmm. ...in a room that you're not familiar with. Okay. That there are some sharp... I don't know, glasses or something. Something that can be not so pleasant to... ...interact with in the room. Mm-hmm. But I will only tell you... ...you're doing great, Jane. When you're doing great. Mm-hmm. And otherwise I'll be quiet. Or in another example... ...I will tell you that you're doing great, Jane, when you're doing great. But I will tell you no... ...when that sharp glass is right here... ...and you're about to blind yourself. Mm-hmm. Which one would you like? So in that situation where it's very clear-cut... I mean, it's always clear-cut. Well, that is very clear-cut. Okay. So in that one, what do you do? So, yeah, it's helpful to have as many instructions as possible... ...when not to go and when to go. But if the sat-nav goes... ...go left, don't go right... I'm sorry, say that again. Say that again. So your sat-nav... If my sat-nav was going... ...don't go left, don't go right... I don't understand what sat-nav... Like... What do you call them? It's my English. I'm like... What do we call them? GPS. You know, the GPS. Oh, the satellite. Gotcha, gotcha. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, if my sat... What do you call them in the US? GPS. I mean, satellite is totally fine. That's sat-nav. Satellite navigation, yeah. Sure. That's sat-nav.

So if I was in my car and I'm trying to get from A to B... ...and it says, don't go left here, don't go right here... ...go on here, it would be really irritating. So in that case, I'd just like them to tell me what I want to do rather than... Sure, sure, sure. There is... There is... Many, many places where... You don't need to... And actually, if you start to say... As you give that example... It can complicate things. Mm-hmm. But... At the same time... In many other cases... I think it's... Of... Critical importance... That I tell you... Jane... No. To the point that you will be... Thank you, Ivan. Like, sincerely thank you... Because... I just avoided... Something... Really... Bad... Happening to me. Yeah. So on another example... We have student nurses coming to work with us. And we... What happens is... You get to week three... And they're turning up in... We call them pelmet skirts. You know... There's no sort of skirt there. You know... They're inappropriately dressed. Their nails are long. They're turning up late. You know... I know what you're talking. And you've got to sit down at that point... And do a lot of talking to them about... You know... We didn't... You mustn't do this. You mustn't do that. Far better. Day one... We say... This is how you expect to turn up. Mm-hmm. We expect you to... On time. We expect you to dress appropriately. Your hair tied back. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know... And I... See how easy it is for you when you give me an example. I'm like... Yeah. I don't argue with it. It's good. Yeah. It makes sense. There's nothing to argue about. Yeah. I can... I can most likely make sure that that happens. Mm-hmm. Now... Having said that... Mm-hmm. Do you... Believe... That... All kids... That end up... As the one you're describing... Are coming from... A bad home that didn't... Show... That didn't do... The right things. I see children... I go into homes with a newborn baby... And toddlers are there as well. There's inconsistent... The parent... Parenting's inconsistent. And mum's really struggling. There's a whole lot of reasons... That that child's not going to make a good progress. So... So... So it's not... It's not a binary sort of... This is not happening. There's a whole gamut of stuff going on in the house. Correct. You know... It just... That's going to suggest that this... This family is going to really struggle. Right. You know... It's the whole environment. Right. Now... Can we agree that even in the same environment... You have... Two brothers... And they're raised... Identically. Mm-hmm. And the one ends up being the good kid... And the other ones end up being the bad kid. There's going to be a whole lot of... Yes. Absolutely.

Because there'll be... There'll be some certain factors... That mean one child thrives... And the other child doesn't. Good. Tiny, tiny factors in life. Right. It can be tiny. It can be big. It can be genetic predisposition... Yeah. Depending how the genes connect it. Depending... Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So we agree on that. Mm-hmm. Good. When we... Where do we stand now... With the word no? You and I. Is there a place to it or no? Not that it happens... But is there actually... So it's an emergency... Important place for it or no? There's an emergency... It's an emergency. The child is just about to do something... That's not safe. No is the most appropriate thing to say at that stage. Mm-hmm. However... There's a whole lot of preparation that needs... That needs now to happen to think about... How do we make sure that this doesn't happen again? Because saying no the second time... And the third time... Very good. And the fourth time... And the fifth time... You know... Oh, yeah. You can totally abuse the no. I don't... That's beyond the... The scope of what we are covering right now. Mm-hmm. So we are thinking about the emergency situations... Mm-hmm. And we agree that it has importance. It's valuable there. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. What about a kid learning... To ride a bicycle... Or playing a game... And it's struggling... And it's making the wrong move. And you say... No, don't do that. Do that. Ah, you see now... That's interesting. Because actually... What I would be wanting to do... Is for the child... I wouldn't be directing the child. Right. I would... Yeah. It's about letting that child... Keeping that child within the boundaries... That it can achieve... But letting experiment itself... To get the right thing. Right. Right. And... If I... If I have you... Let's imagine a situation... I say... I say... Janie... I have... 10,000 euros... Or pounds... Or... Yeah. I have a good amount of money. Something that is very worth it to you. Yeah. I'd like that. Yeah. In cash. There is no interest. There is... Like you're getting this money right now. Mm-hmm. We're at the gas station. Mm-hmm. And there is this... Bulgarian car... That I'm driving. And I say... I'm gonna give you... Two minutes... To figure it out... Where... Where... Where... The gas tank... The cap is... And if you can start... Within two minutes... To start... Not to fill up the car... But just to start... To fill up the car... Mm-hmm. You're winning... 10,000 euros. Mm-hmm. Go. Go. My brain will be like... I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. Right. So... Would you feel frustrated... If you cannot figure it out? Mm-hmm. Yeah. You will, right? Yeah. Thanks. And if I see you going... To where the spare tire is...

And you're trying to... Remove now the spare tire... For some reason... Because you cannot figure anything out... Yeah. And I say... Janie, no. Wouldn't you thank me? That I... I'd rather... You said go around the left. Go to the back. Or I'd rather a positive direction. So... If I only tell you positive direction... But you're stuck in the tire... And I cannot give you positive direction... What do you do? Well, it's an emergency, isn't it? I need to stop. Why is it an emergency? It's life-threatening? No. I think... I know my money. Well... You have high motivation. It's not life-threatening. Yeah. It's not life-threatening. No. But it's... Yeah. So... So my motivation is high... But my ability is very low. So what I'm trying to tell you... Is that when you have... High motivation to accomplish something... Mm-hmm. Just as in dangerous situation... Mm-hmm. Me being able to guide you from wrong and right... Is of utmost value at you... And you will be grateful for me telling you both. You will need both... To be successful. There is no question. This cannot be argued. Think about it for a moment. If he was... If he was so good at giving directions... I'm hopeless at giving directions... Drugs and the husband mad. But he's actually very good at saying... He's very specific about things. So he's saying... You know... I would much rather... You said go around to the left. You know... Go to the back panel. I'd far rather... Because you're wasting time saying no. You're not wasting time saying no. You're actually becoming extremely efficient. I mean... Yeah. I would... I think we... Yeah. I would rather just... I would rather... Rather than saying no. Don't do that. I would much rather you just gave me the instructions... Of what I should be doing. You know... There's a... However long it takes to say that. I'd rather you just said... Could you go around to the left and... So let's picture it again. Okay. There is that strange car. Okay. You've never seen it. Mm-hmm. 10,000 pounds. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Now you're highly motivated. My arousal state is right up. Exactly. So I can't think. I can't think. Exactly. And as much as I want to tell you... That you were facing the cap. Like all you needed to do is extend your hand. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you just rushed to the right. I cannot tell you good. I cannot tell you nothing. Right? Right? If I cannot tell you no. You can only say no. Is that right? You're only allowed to say no? No. I'm... I'm... In the one option is... I can only say good. Oh, you can only say good. Okay. In the other option, I can tell you no and good. Okay. Okay. Well, in that situation, I'd like you to say no. Everybody would. Regardless of what... Yeah, yeah.

Right? But that's... Yeah. So it's not life-threatening, is it? It can be a game. It can be any game. But I've also chosen... The important thing is I've chosen to be part of that game. I've opted in. Which are dogs maybe not... Haven't opted in? So let's talk about the dogs that have opted in. But how many dogs do we have around that haven't opted in? I mean, that's the question, isn't it? If a dog's opted in, then, you know, they're motivated. What? Okay. See how quickly you bring it to the dogs. We'll bring it to the dogs. Okay. I thought we were talking about dogs. We'll bring it to the dogs. But we cannot go... Like, every second we go into the dogs, I have a wall and I cannot go through. That's why we're going with those other examples. The question... We're talking about linear things, aren't we? The question was, again, very simple. Just as the claiming I can do something better than somebody else, but I never prove it. The question right now is... It's hypothetical, yeah. Saying no to a kid, to your husband, to a fellow human. No dogs. No parrots. Humans. Humans. Is no having a value, or doesn't it? It depends. Doesn't it? I mean, doesn't it depend on... It depends on every situation. So, are there situations that no is critically important or no? As we said, I think, life-saving. Life-saving. Yeah. I'm going to win 10,000 pounds. What about the $10,000? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've opted into it, and I want to win those $10,000. Okay. So, why would you say, then, that it's not important? Sorry? I mean, it's clearly very valuable. In many places. Yeah. Yeah. But sometimes, if I... You know, sometimes it's just not the right thing to say at the time. You know, if you're in a coercive relationship... I can see this is so easy for me. I say, yes, Jenny, you're correct. Sometimes it's not the right place. Yeah. But it's very hard for you to say that there is many, many, many, many places where it's just perfect to say it. You have a hell of a hard time to say that. And why is that? I've lost the plot. My head is going... You know, there was a... Back in the early 50s, Skinner, you know, it's a force-free. So, Skinner is idolized because of the errorless learning. So, that's really good for stroke patients. I know that. Right. So, errorless learning is not much different than what our discussion is. Do we say no? Do we not say no? That depends... Sorry, I'm not going to... No, no. But that's... When we're talking about errorless learning, basically, the whole idea is that we... If you do the wrong thing, we let it slide so you can do the right thing and we make sure that you do the right thing and you move on. So... And you learn...

If you're practicing the skill yourself and you're learning it yourself but you've got a boundary to work in, then you can make progress because that doesn't work so you try something else and... Yeah. So, you have... Like, way back in time, science did, like... There's a guy by name Thorndike and he came up with the... Well, he didn't come up with this as biologically driven, fundamental, you know, trial and error. But he put a cat in a box and then he created a bunch of laws and one of the laws was, you know, learning very easily happens through trial and error. Later on, Skinner said, no, errorless learning because of the reasons as we are talking here, saying no brings these negative feelings and emotions and puts you down. Well, we can avoid all that and we can just give you thumbs up when you're doing the right thing and we can manage it that way. So, they created even machines. They didn't have the laptops and computers that we have right now. And there were students playing with those things for a few years. Like, you can go on YouTube and you can see them. Errorless learning is still used, as you said, with kids with mental disabilities. And, you know, there is absolutely 100% place for that. But errorless learning, it's extremely limited. I suppose, are you labeling it as a very specific process that you're going through? Yes, you basically are not saying, no, you're wrong. That's how simple it is. You're only encouraging and reinforcing the good stuff. But you're not saying you're doing the wrong thing. So, if you set up the environment so they can only do the right thing or it's a tiny bit of... Correct. Then you're going to learn without getting all the negative stuff going in as well. Correct. So, that was in the... Almost, almost close to 100 years ago. Mm-hmm. If that was working... Mm-hmm. Don't you think that all universities would adopt this methodology? But we're human, aren't we? You know, we're all... What does that mean? Where did you go? Where everyone is so unique, you know, that actually... We are unique, but we are also... We are actually... This is a very interesting one, and that goes with dogs as well. There is always the argument that we have unique characteristics and we are individuals. But when we look at the human and humans as a whole, percentage, like if we put some system to evaluate, we are by far not unique. We are so identical in how we think, how we behave and what we do and what our organisms are and so on. And of course, there is individuality. But that's much smaller percentage compared to the big picture of what humans are.

But when you look at a group of children coming into class, their motivation to learn, you know, how they learn, are they very visual people, are they numbers orientated? You know, all those sorts of things. You know, if you have a whole lot of writing on a board, for some children that's great, and for other children they're going to be completely overwhelmed. You know, so learning style is different for everybody. Whether you come into school and your parents have been arguing... You know, all that stuff. But what is the same? What is the same then? What is identical? We are talking, well, everybody is unique, but what is identical? I will tell you what is identical is the same thing that you brought up. Most kids that will be mistreated at home will behave quite similarly. No, I wouldn't say that. I would say it's very different. You know, they have, you know, you react, we all react differently to stress. How different? So, some will become very withdrawn, some become very compliant, some are very angry. So you will not be able to put them in some groups? No. Everybody is individual? No, no. So, you know, some children will come to school and, you know... Jenny, that's not, that's just not right. Hmm? Like you, you're saying literally that every person is acting in a different way compared to somebody else. Hmm. We all, we're all going to respond to the environment differently. We all need to feel, we all need to, safety is so important for all of us. When you look at the sort of Maslow's... So, I will tell you, you know how you said the classical conditioning, Pavlov with the dogs and how cruel it was and whatever. I mean, that's my opinion. The thing, yeah, and yeah, that's, that's fine. What Pavlov discovered and was able to explain is that every single person on planet Earth, unless they're on certain drugs, when you have a straw and air puff in their eye, they will close their eye. Okay. Every single one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There is no difference. Mm-hmm. Now, I can give you endless examples of how identically we'll behave in certain circumstances. This is what Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok have done to society. They understand how to manipulate you and you and you using exactly the same skill to do exactly what they want you to do. Can I tell you something about being different? Did you know that most medicine is research, the medical process is all about the, a male, I think it's a 70 kilo male. So, what we understand about human medicine is related to the male rather than the female. And a female physiology is different to the male physiology. Mm-hmm.

You know, so I think, you know, we are, yeah, you know, there are some, there are some reactions that are going to be very similar. But all females are different, right? Hm? All females are individual different. The physical... Well, every... You're saying that like a female that has her cycle, her period, and goes on vacation and there is three more women with her. What are the chances that they will get their periods? I mean, that's... That's why I've been... Extremely high. Well, if it is, you know, I mean, what I'm saying is that we are, we all react to the world differently. We have... That's what I'm saying, we don't. Like we have, we have individuality, but in the big scoop of things, it comes down to actually one, not even many, just one very simple law, fundamental. And that is, and it's not even humans, it's every living thing, any, any single cell organism will approach something pleasant. Okay. Yeah. And it will avoid something unpleasant. Yeah. Yeah. Now, if you sit down with this for a moment, you can see how far this goes in everything we do. Okay. And it's guaranteed that there is no individuality there, unless there is some exceptional pathologies. But, but what do we know is unpleasant and what do we know is pleasant? That, that is what is unique for all of us. For example, it is very, very, again, they're the little individualistic places, but everybody needs energy. Yeah. To get energy, you need food and sleep. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So everybody that's alive will approach food. Mm-hmm. Right? Unless, unless something's happened. So let me repeat this. There is this individual differences, but everybody needs food. Will approach food. Everybody. If you, if you don't eat, I will not have the conversation with you. But, but, but things can happen that mean that, um, that food can happen. Oh, things happen. Yeah, for sure. Mm-hmm. I'm not, I'm not quite sure what you're saying. So, so what I'm, what I'm going, again, I'll, I'll, we go back to that is when you say that everybody's different. I'm saying, yeah, we have differences, but in the big scoop of things, we're actually extremely, exactly the same. And we behave extremely and exactly the same. You see, I, I mean, I can understand there are drives that are the same, and that's how we can categorize things. But how we respond to the world, how we each as an individual approach the world, will be affected by, by our genetics, by, you know, by the environment we're raised in. Yeah. So why, how many people don't use smartphones right now, you think? Oh, there's a proportion. I don't know. I, I may only got a smartphone. Like, what do you think?

I have no idea. Right. Absolutely no idea. But if you take a wild guess, what would you say? I don't know. If, if, and I'm not talking like in some extremely poor remote areas where people cannot afford it, but assuming that you can. Most people, most people, it's a highly addictive piece of equipment. I have absolutely no idea what the numbers are, but I mean, I had a, I had a, yeah. And it's addictive because of science, because we understand human and animal behavior and we can control it. And we can really trigger you to want to have it. So I can continue to come up with just infinite number of examples, how humans are much more acting and behaving the same way than the individual differences. I'm not arguing that there are no individual differences, but I will strongly argue that every person is different from another in every aspect. Hmm. If that's the case, you cannot apply any of the strategy that you're using to, to every kid. You don't apply different strategies. How many different strategies you think you have? I have no idea. Right. I have no idea. So I, I would, you need to look at the environment the child's in first. Yeah. But when you bring it down to the basic, the fundamentals, they will come to, you know, again, you approach something good, you avoid something bad. First of all, we look at changing the environment. That's always the, does that child feel safe? Safety is so, we, I mean, they're recognizing now how much safety is a real need within all of us. And quite often, whether it's emotional safety or physical safety, that's, that affects our behavior quite significantly. And if you haven't got a mother who's emotionally available to a child, the child doesn't feel safe. Um, you know, they make it, the child may appear well cared for, but, um, and the mother may appear to be doing everything that you'd expect a mother to do, but actually that child emotionally doesn't feel that that mother's there for them. Yeah. But again, like if you, if you overall have to say, we are more different than we have more in common, or it's the other way around. It depends what you're comparing. I think it's, that's quite a wide question. Um, you know, I have, as a human, you're, you're a human. I'm a human. I have arms and legs, but we, yeah, but our perspective of the world is so different, you know, and that, that molds how we behave. Um, you know, and how we behave. Why is it so different? What, what is so different? What, what is so different? We all, we all think that we have the right, we're on the right side of things.

Um, we like to, uh, yeah, some of us like to, like, some of us like to think that we're looking all the way, but yes, I'm, you know, we have. From, from when the first man exists, it's always been like that. Right. And then you have tribes and then you have wars. What are wars? They, everybody's doing the right thing. And the other side is wrong. It's all about status. Yeah. So. Um, I, I don't know if it's about status. I think it's in a way, uh, programmed in us to be this way. Um, it's about, it, it's a, we're programmed to keep ourselves safe by making us more, we need to be more powerful. You can have three very friendly koalas. Koalas? Yeah. Like the cute little animals. Yeah. Think of something very peaceful, whatever animal you can think of. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They most definitely will get in a very serious fight. Eventually. There will be a reason and everybody does. Well, it depends what the environment they're in. You know, there's no, you only, there's, I mean, you, you're taking it to a different place. I'm saying they will fight. Why would they fight? They can fight for, for a tree, for a mate, for food. They have quite a few reasons to fight just as you. And, uh, the people, you know, in Russia and Ukraine or Israel and Palestine. And there's like sometimes very stupid reasons to fight, but they fight. And there is sometimes very important reasons to fight because if you don't. Resources. Yeah. Right. So this is all similar, right? Hmm. But those are quite, that's not about the individual though, is it? I mean, it's, you know, are we, are we arguing how many angels dance on the head of a pin? You know, it's the... Well, when we're, so the reason we went on that tangent in the rabbit hole is because you say that we should treat everybody different as an individual. We should, we should recognize, if we're trying to make changes with that individual, we should recognize where that individual is. Okay. I'm not saying we should treat them. Now, now that's changing. Now start to like that. Because what you are really now going to is we have to recognize that individual in which group fits more. Because there is absolutely 100% thousands, millions, billions of people that are in most aspects very acting the same way and having the same interest as that person. On a, if you look from above possibly, but actually what's going on for them, it's all going to be very, very different. You know, so. Okay. So if you look, if you look right back and you look at, you stare at it, you're not feeling, you know, their bowels are moving in a different way. You know, their taste buds are different. Okay.

You know, they're, yeah. So let's assume you, you kind of almost gonna go in a suicidal mode here because of what I'm going to ask you now. Okay. I've got an interesting discussion about suicide. Get ready. Of course. I hope you're having fun with this because it's just. So. It's not the usual sort of conversation I have. I have to admit. Right. So if we are all individuals and we all have to take it. I have to interact and teach you how to behave in a certain way. In a different way than somebody else. Well, I suppose. Well, I suppose. Well, I suppose. Well, I suppose. Well, I suppose. Well, I suppose. Well, I suppose. Well, I suppose. Well, I suppose. Well, I suppose. Well, I suppose. Well, I suppose. Well, I suppose. Well, I suppose. Well, I suppose. creation of it will work for everybody. Well, I suppose... Is that the case? I don't know. I can't speak enough. I don't know enough about the breadth of force-free working. I just believe that the welfare of the animal is paramount over my ego. Right, right. But when we are saying, well, let's make electric colors against the law. Because we can do everything force-free, right? So, in some way, this is the statement. That's the position. Force-free can work for everybody across the board. And it doesn't matter if you're individual or not. How does that sound? Yeah. So, I listened to a podcast yesterday. A lass called Holly, who lives in England. Can't remember her name. She had a podcast with a German trainer, force-free trainer. They were talking about prey drive. And Holly said that in England, she wrote a blog about the potential for electric colors to be banned. And she got a lot of flack about, well, what are we going to do about chasing livestock? And, you know, you can imagine the sort of reaction to that. Sure, sure, sure. And the German podcast lady. I can't remember her name. Most likely Simone Miller. Possibly. I don't know. She has this, what is it called? She said, well, we haven't had electric colors in Germany for 15 years. So, within the culture, it's not just part of the thinking. You put the dog on the lead. You know, you do other things. You know, if you're around livestock, you put the dog on the lead. You know, that's not an issue. So, you know, I think it's, if you haven't got one, you do something else. You don't say, you know, you don't say, I can train this dog to come back from chasing a deer. You say, I have a dog who has a prey drive. I work with that and I do what I can to make sure that the prey stays safe and the dog stays safe. And I think it's, there's a lot of drive within us to do what we think is right. Whereas, does the dog want that?

You know, people say, well, I need to have my electric collar because my dog and I go for 10 mile hikes together. Well, that's lovely for the dog. But the dog would probably quite happily having a sniff. You know, there are other ways of fulfilling that dog's needs without going for a 10 mile hike. It's our desire to have that life with our dogs, which impacts our decisions on how we train our dogs sometimes, I think. Hmm. So you're saying that a dog that it's just freely learning, I mean, running, perhaps with his buddies too, having time of their life, not getting in trouble because they know they should not. They know what to do, what is off limits and they can be controlled, but they actually have the freedom to be free. But it's our perception of that freedom. And yes, it's lovely. Okay. So would you say that a parrot in a very big cage in the zoo in London is happier than if it's... I don't know about the ethogram of the parrot. No, hold on. You cannot say that. Okay. If a bird is free to fly and a bird lives in enclosure, if a human cannot get out because of COVID, or it goes out and about and interacts, or a dog goes out and runs and chases butterflies versus a dog that can never do that because it's on a leash, or it's very selective where it cannot be on leash and off leash. There is, like, I don't think there should be even any argument about freedom. I think freedom is very clearly understood. But at what cost? Freedom? Yes. At any cost. At any cost. Freedom. That's... Freedom. Yeah. Freedom specifically at any cost. So freedom of choice. I think, you know, you have to take... I mean, I can't speak for anybody else's dog. You know, I can't speak for your dogs. I can't speak. It's about understanding the dog in front of you and their needs. And there are some, you know, we've got the horrible ex-bully, XL bully ban here at the moment. And, you know, all those dogs, you know, it's... Anyway, we won't go there. Let's step away from the dogs. How did you feel about COVID? How was the structure in COVID where you were? So it depended... It absolutely depended your situation. You know, you've got a bit... I was very lucky because I had to go to work anyway. I cycled an hour there, an hour back every day. I have a garden. I have... You know, for me, it was fine. Families I had to visit, they had five children in a two-bedroom flat, no access to garden. It was horrible. Really horrible. So freedom, it depends how you define freedom. I think that's, you know, what is freedom? Freedom of choice, freedom to feel safe. Those are important. Freedom not to stay in an elevator all day long. Yeah.

Freedom to go around the street and go to the coffee shop and have a croissant and cappuccino. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or staying in an elevator. And having the choice to do it. And as you're having the freedom to go out and about on the sidewalk, there are rules that you don't kick people around and you don't jump in front of cars and you don't throw shit on the person that's serving you coffee. And there is rules. Right? And you cross on the... Where it's the appropriate place to close because there's consequences if you don't. Or we keep you in an elevator. Freedom not to be persecuted, you know. Well, it's... How do you... If you can't have that freedom that you'd like to have, then how else do you manage it? You know, how do you let that dog feel safe, feel relief when they're worried, you know, have choice? You know, we... What do you mean if you cannot have it? If for some reason, if you have an Excel bully, if you have a dog that has no recall, and, you know, if... The thing is, because there's consequences to using other methods, you know, having... You can go to a field, you know, it's... The question is sometimes, have you chosen the right dog for the environment you're in? You know, and I think sometimes that dog didn't choose to be born. Yes, yes, yes. So, I have... Let's just again, imaginary. I have a dog and I live in a big city. And I walk it on a flexi around the block. Maybe go to a dog short, close dog park. Maybe, maybe no, depending, whatever. Or... I load them up in a car. And I go outside the... That city. In a country. And I know that I can tell them, Don't do that. That's one thing I don't want you to do. But you can run around and you can chase and you can dig holes and you can... Whatever you want to do. Just go exhaust yourself and have as much fun as you can. But there are some rules and limits. And I can reinforce it. Mm-hmm. It will be silly to argue that that's not a good life. And it will be silly to say at what cost. There is no cost. There is no cost. It's just... The cost is very easy. Just like when you get in your car and you start driving, you follow certain rules. And if you... So have you put an electric collar on this dog so that they come back? Or you just trained it for a good recall? You can do whatever you want. Okay. But in your case, let's say I do put electric collar on the dog. Mm-hmm. Right? So the dog has electric collar on. Mm-hmm. In case when I tell him don't do that and he says, no, but I really want to, I can say, well, it's a bad idea and this is why. Okay. So you are hugely skilled with delivering... What do you mean hugely skilled?

Well, I get the impression that you... I mean... I am. Yes. Your time... I would imagine your timing is very precise. You know, to get the results you do, you have... Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Now, I know, I use... When I used to go to clicker training, you know, we go to... You hear the clickers going off all over the place. People's timing is crap, isn't it? You know, with a clicker, it's, you know... But with a clicker, you might get an extra treat or you might get frustrated because you don't get one. Clicker is actually a little bit more complicated than using electric collar. But if... And let's pause for a moment here. I will argue that, but let's say you're not skilled and I am skilled. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. What rights would you have to stop me when I'm skillful and I know what to do for not letting my dog have freedom because I'm using electric collar? So, I have no right at all, but how many of you are really, really skilled and how many people are not skilled? Okay. You're... Would... Why would you stop me? Because that's what Force 3 does. So, I would be very uncomfortable using it, but I know that you know what you're doing. I... My understanding of how they work... I don't... I mean, I... But we agree that this is kind of incorrect thing to do to stop me when I know what I'm doing. Or you disagree with that. I don't like what you're doing. I go to... I go to houses and I see families with, you know, they're... Okay. They're doing things... That's different. We're talking about me. Okay. You said I'm very skillful. Because you're a role model. I think that's the... You're a role model. No, no. How did I become a role model? Because of talking on the internet? Lots of practice. Lots of practice. Lots and lots of hard work. No, because of competition. Because I can prove that who I am and what I do. Mm-hmm. That's the way. I can talk, but I actually walk that walk and I prove it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So we know that I'm very successful and I'm very experienced and I'm very knowledgeable. What right do you have to stop me using electric collar? Because you don't think... I have no right. I have no right. Right. But you think... But this is what the Force 3 wants to do. That's what they do. Because in general... No, why general? What is general? We said that we're individuals, right? Everybody has individuality. What happened to that? Where did you go? Well, we are all individual, but countries need rules, you know, to keep people safe. You know, we have to wear seatbelts because most people won't crash their cars. Otherwise there are consequences. Yeah. Right. That's what the electric collar does.

You don't go and do things that you're not supposed to do. It's very simple. But the thing is, how many people understand how to use them properly? You are avoiding to say that... Admit that I should... I, Ivan, should have the right to use the electric collar because I know how. You have problems saying that. Why? I... I... Because... I think it's because of... Because once you get to your level, you are also a role model for others. And as a role model for others, people will copy you. It's a huge... You know, people will... You know, because they see you use it, then people will copy you, but they don't... They haven't got your skills. I mean, I... You know, and they will... Okay. Okay, so... I can say, Jenny, you know what? Too bad, but there is a lot of accidents on the road lately. Mm-hmm. You cannot drive your car anymore. Sorry. I know you have a license, but too bad. Okay. There is... There is these idiots that are drink driving and killing people daily. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I'd be delighted with it. You are not... You are not allowed to drive your car starting now. Okay. Does that even make sense? I mean, that's what happened in COVID, wasn't it? You know, that's what happened in COVID. Did COVID make sense? Uh... It didn't happen in Florida. We were lucky. We had a lot of deaths here. We had a lot of deaths here. We left our life just as it was before. Mm-hmm. Well, in Oxford... But COVID is not the same. I suppose we have to be... People are dying on the street because of car accidents. They are. Therefore, you are not allowed to drive your car. Okay. Well, I mean, the thing is... I admit that this is absolutely a ridiculous idea. Not necessarily. I mean, I think... Tell me how. So, I think it depends on, you know, we have to... I'm listening. We have to work on the risks, don't we? So, um... And I'm not... There's a brilliant book by... Have you read it by... What's it called? He's called... Thinking Fast and Slow. Really recommend you read it. He's... It's called Daniel Kahneman. It's about how we... How we work out risk. Is it working out for the individual? You know, you're not allowed to drink and drive now. Um... And I think if... If it was the case that actually there was a... You know, if there was ice on the road and everyone was crashing, You know, the... The government in the time make a decision whether it's the right decision or not. Um... But when we're looking at animal welfare... There is... You know, it's... There is... Like the statistics... Of how many accidents... I mean, we can even isolate it. Huge! How many deaths happen... Yeah, huge! Huge! Huge! Huge! So, the statistics for the company...

Justifying not to have cars... And Janie tomorrow... Doesn't drive... She walks... I cycle... I cycle to work and I love it. So... So you're fine? So I'm fine, yeah. I would be fine actually. I'd be delighted. But... Yeah, no... And everybody else... Too bad for them. So, what often what happens when someone... Risks losing their license... For whatever reason... You know, there's a lot of sort of wailing and gnashing of teeth... And then they said, well, I need it for my... You know, I need it for my work. And, you know, the judge has to make a decision about the risk... Whether... Whether they let them keep the license or not. Um... It's hard to... To admit reality for you. Well, it... Well, it... Well, it... Well, it... Well, it... Well, it... Well, it... Well, it... Well, it... Well, it... Well, it... Well, it... Well, it... It's hard to admit reality for you. I think it's very much the same what I'm saying. You are perfectly okay not to allow me to use something that I'm absolute master of using that allows my dogs to have the best time any dog can dream of. That's your opinion. I mean I'm not saying no but I'm just saying that's your opinion. So I am around dogs for a very long time. Do you think that I cannot tell when dog is happy, when dog is absolutely in ecstasy and when dog is a little bit bummed out and when dog is very depressed? Do you think I can tell that or not? I'm sure you're very, I'm sure you, with all the time you spent with dogs, I'm sure you can see quite a range. But what I would say is that, I don't know what it's like or where you are. My children were born in the mid-90s. Of their school year, I think there have been five suicides of young men. And you see on the internet people putting, this is what my child looked like the day before they died. This is the week before they died. There's lots of them out there. And it's really quite tragic. How could a parent not tell that their child was suicidal? Because we don't know what's going on all the time, do we? So how can we say, my dog is the happiest it will be? Well, we don't know that. That's our opinion. You know, that's the messages we get. So how come that your opinion of knowing has more value than my opinion of knowing? How does that work? What do I know? Well, you say that I don't know and you know. So how are we making that? I don't know. I'm saying that do you, I don't know either. I don't know. So then you should let me do what I do. But we know when we look at trauma in dogs, when we look at trauma in humans, the impact of trauma, we're not looking at your particular dogs, but dogs in general.

I'm not interested at the moment, dogs in general. I'm asking a straightforward question. I have, I'm probably in a handful of people that have the knowledge that most do not. And you're telling me that I cannot let my dogs. I'm not telling you, you can't. I'm saying that you're a little girl. You are. No, but that's the thing. That's what For3 does. You're trying to ban, you're trying to restrict my dogs to have what I consider good life. But that's your opinion, isn't it? I mean, that's. Right. And then you have your opinion that it's based on nothing also that my dogs have or don't have good life. Why would I trust you? Why would I follow you? So it's not your dogs. It's about the role model that you're providing. No, no, it's about my dogs. I'm talking about my dogs, not about role model. But you are a role model. You are. It doesn't matter. I like. I mean, you will do what you do. You will do what you want to do, won't you? I mean, that, you know, nothing will stop you because you have your skills. You have your knowledge. You know, you will, you will do. But that's not the truth. You're you. And when I'm saying you, it's not you directly. But your ideology, your tribe. If, if so. Okay. If stock collars were so good. Why don't we put them on tigers? Why, why would you put it on tigers? Why don't you put it on tigers? Like, where do you go right now? Like, you, you, this, so, so you're giving up. You cannot answer. Why should you not let me use? I, so. And now we are going to tigers. So, so, you want to wear a shock collar. There's nothing, well, you don't want to wear a shock collar. You want, you, you've, in your opinion, you know exactly what you're doing. I mean, I'm not, not, not questioning it. But I'm just saying, in your opinion, you know exactly what you're doing. Your dogs are having the happiest life. That's the end of it. In my opinion, what I know about trauma, what I know about how children are affected by adverse events, my, my limited knowledge of dogs, but what I hear from, what I read from mothers, what I read and what I understand. When I see people managing their children, when I see people managing their dogs, most people don't know what they're doing. So, people should not give kids. We won't. Children arrive. But, you know, we are, we are blessed with children. But, I think when you have such a high position as you do, people follow you, people, people copy you, people, people will. People, I will tell you what people do. People want to learn from me. Just as I want to learn from somebody that does something better than me. That's what people do. But when they copy you.

And, I am capable to teach people how to do it properly. But that motor skill takes so long. Just as you would, what? The motor skills, the fine motor skills of when you give us, when you punish a dog at the moment that they're doing what they do. So, now you said, at one point you're saying, I am. So, you can do it. I know about kids, but I really don't know much about dogs. I listen to people. You're talking to somebody that actually does know about dogs and it's telling you facts. So, what I'm saying is, whatever you know, you know what you know, you have the skills. What I'm saying is the general public are following you. Right. Okay. And what I'm saying is that I'm capable and I do that all the time. I teach. Just like every teacher. There is good teachers and bad teachers. But the motor skills have to be practiced. They have to be, you know, you don't want to keep playing the violin. I know what is needed. I know better than you what motor skill, what IQ somebody has to have. I can make that judgment if you're capable or not. And I can teach you. And I do that very successfully. But that's besides the point. Again, the point is that you are stripping off the rights, my dogs, to be free. Because you don't like it. Because you assume that I don't know. And I should believe what you are assuming. Because there is nothing else stable in your statements. So I just go back to animal welfare. Sure. I know, you know, the animal welfare of those, I haven't got the statistics of the animals that are affected by inappropriate use of electric collars. I don't have those statistics. But I know they're out there. There are no statistics. That's a problem. So why has the UK, why has the UK on all the, why would all the service dog organizations, all the rescue organizations, why do they choose not to use electric collars? Right, right, right, right. I mean, why do you think they're teaching now in university, at least in the States, that men can menstruate? Why do you think that is? I mean, just because something is happening, what does that mean? So, I mean, that's another conversation about having surgery and people with XY chromosomes and, and, and I'm not going to go there, and XY and XX chromosomes. And, you know, that's another, that's another, that's another, oh, yeah, we won't go down that rabbit hole. I get that. That's okay. I can't remember what the question was. Um. Where were we? We're about you having the upper hand to decide. Is that? I haven't got the upper hand. I'm not talking you directly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. To decide what I am capable to do.

And also to decide you have the knowledge that I don't, if my dogs are happy or not. I don't have, yeah. But, I mean, we all have our opinions about them. You know, you see these, you see how many countless TikToks and YouTubes of people walking their dogs through the streets. And, you know, you can see the body language of those dogs, can't you? You can see that there's a lot of very unhappy dogs out there with people thinking they know what they're doing. Yeah, and I also see many dogs in shelters and many dogs getting newtonized. Yeah, yeah. Why do you think that happens? Because there are lots of reasons. People buy inappropriate dogs. Right. They don't know how to train them. Right. They're chaotic. Right. And they think, and I think a lot of them think that they can just go out and buy a piece of equipment and then make it work. And that will be... And what else? How about subscribing to the Kool-Aid that one glove fits all that we can accomplish everything with force-free method? So there is a tiny proportion of people who generally are skilled at force-free. If you look at the whole dog population, there is a tiny proportion who are skilled at force-free training. It's a... I mean, the whole thing. Most people buy a pet dog, have a vague idea what they want to do. So what I'm going with, Janie, is that when we... The one argument that the force-free has is that, okay, you can fuck up with a clicker. You can screw up positive reinforcement. So what? Nothing happens. But if you timing and your motor skill, as you say, and whatever, with the electric collar, you can create a disaster. Right? Well, let me have you think about that. When you have a dog, that it's an individual, as you like to say. And for one reason or another, positive reinforcement is failing to work. Do you drop them off for the shelter or give something else a try? When there is a living being... You go to the vet and you get a pain assessment. You get... You get... Of course, of course. You do all that. And then you go to the next level of more experienced force-free trainer and the next one and the next one. And there is no... Everybody says, yeah, hands up. We give up. Euthanize the dog. Would you do that with your kid? Who says... Or would you try something else? I wouldn't put an electric collar on my child. You will euthanize your child when everybody's telling you it's not going to work. Assuming that there is an option that you can try. I... I would... I would never consider going down that route personally. If my child... Sorry, we're going to get it yourself.

The reason I'm bringing it, and hopefully it's not like a sensitive thing, because I look at my dogs as my kids. That's why I have kids. I'm not like... I have actual human kids, but my dogs are kids. And when somebody comes and I know that I can help them... I'm helping them. And I have saved dogs from euthanasia. And it's not one, it's not five, it's not 50. And I think if you ask on both sides of the argument, many, many force-free trainers were taught to say exactly the same thing. So I think... But there is a big difference. Sorry to interrupt you. I'll let you say it, but there is a big difference. I am absolutely okay with you trying the best you can. But you are not okay with me trying. Well, it depends what you're using. I mean, you know... I am saving the dog's life. That's the bottom line. That is the bottom line. I mean, that's what you're saying. But actually, if they've gone to force-free trainer, could they... Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah. But how... I mean, I obviously can't talk specifics because, you know, each individual is... But both sides will claim that they have saved dog lives because they've been the other way. Correct. You know, that is... And I think the saviour in all of us wants to... You know, that is the thing that... When we're talking about status and humiliation, you know, that is the status claim that you get on both sides. That my method... I am the saviour. I have saved dogs from euthanasia. Both sides will say that. You have... Let's say we have five choices. You exhaust choice. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You exhaust choice one. You exhaust choice two. These are all force-free choices. Mm-hmm. You exhaust them. And there is another choice. That actually, scientifically, is proven successful. Successful on the behaviour, but what does it do for the dog's rest? And I can't comment on that because... It saves the dog's life. So, you're going to make that choice? I think others would disagree, but you know... Right, but I should be able to make that choice, just like I am allowing you to make that choice. I never would jump on you and say, well, what the hell are you doing? This is so wrong. Like you suck at positive reinforcement, that dog's going to end up in a shelter or it's going to be euthanized. Well, do as you wish, if that's your choice. But if somebody's looking for a solution, and you're not allowing them to try something... Like I have a friend of mine that... I don't know what stage in cancer was, and they're like, we need a... What was the de-warmer for dogs? I'm like, you guys are nuts. Like, what the... They needed like a pound of that powder. I can't remember.

Fendobandazole, whatever it was. Something that it's just not... Nothing to do with cancer treatment as we know it. But now it starts to become popular. And it's proven that it actually has a chance. And even if it doesn't have a chance, why would you not try? Because... Because... I think because... Because... I mean, you're not going to hear this. But the effects of using aversives on the system... I mean, I'm talking what I can say. And, you know, I don't think we can ever agree. But a dog needs to feel safe. See, that's very easy for me. I agree 100%. The dog needs to feel safe. Why would I not? That's a rule. Priority. But... I don't know enough about how electric collars work. But I do know... Beautiful. Thank you for that one. So when... Most of the people... Like yourself... Really don't understand it. But have taken... But there are many that do. There are many that do. And the many of the people that follow your... You know, who follow with you who have no idea how an electric collar works. But will follow you and use one. You know, we're both in the same boat there, aren't we? No. No, we are not. I know exactly how it works. No, but somebody who comes to see you will not... Do you understand? I mean, I don't know how it works on the muscles. And how it triggers the fight-flight system and releases the chemicals. And I don't know enough about that. But I know people who do. And I know it's very complicated. It's not complicated. And like the majority of people that are signing those petitions are people like you. That have a very good heart and very good place. And trying to do the best for the dogs. And hats off to that. But you don't have the knowledge to have a sale. And I... You should not be signing a petition to ban electric collars when you have no knowledge about it. But I have... The knowledge that I have is relevant. Okay, you just said that you don't. And now the knowledge that you have is relevant. So you're contradicting yourself in less than 30 seconds. I mean, you know, we have a very different standpoint. And when I work with children, we avoid anything aversive. And... Do you know what is the difference between children and dogs? Like, there's a lot of differences, of course. But some of the differences, what do you think it is? Dogs don't have theory of mind. Sorry, say it again. Dogs don't have theory of mind. Uh-huh. So they can't predict what somebody... So like, if they can't predict if somebody comes into a room, how they can't see that the person coming into the room feels differently from what they see. So dogs can do that very well. So they can't.

So, I mean, you must have read the experiment by... What's she called? Alexandra Horowitz. You know, dogs cannot do... Two-year-olds can't do it. Four-year-olds can predict that somebody else believes something different to them. But two-year-olds can't. You're comparing kids of different ages. I'm talking about the difference between dogs and children. So... They have a smaller frontal cortex. Their processing is driven in different ways. But we both... We are mammals. So there are certain things that we share. Now you're kind of leaning to what I was saying originally, that we have more in common than not common. But anyway, I will tell you what some of the big differences are that are important for what we're talking about. One of them is that we can think in abstract. Another one is that we can instruct. Humans can be instructed. I can tell a kid... Yeah. If you don't finish your homework, you're not going to get to use your PlayStation. Okay. And that goes a long way. We can do a lot with that with a kid. Mm-hmm. There is absolutely no way that you can interact in that way with a dog. Mm-hmm. Dogs interact in a very different way. Mm-hmm. Dogs play, and when they play, they bite each other. And sometimes they bite each other very softly, and sometimes, purposefully, they bite each other pretty hard. Mm-hmm. And then they avoid it. Mm-hmm. And then the other one does it. So their interaction primarily is based on some discomfort. So that's the question I was going to ask actually. Sure. So is there an animal that you know of that the protective reaction is to come towards the thing that gives them discomfort, or that the protective action is to stay close to the thing that gives them discomfort? What animal does it? What do you mean? Well... We said that you avoid unpleasant stuff, right? Yeah. Yeah. So aversive, the learning in aversive, is to avoid. It's always to avoid. Mm-hmm. But when we use tools to train, the aversive is either come close to me or stay with me. So that's... Why would you say that it's only that? I told you... Well, if you use a prong... I gave you an example. I'm letting my dog free. I have like a huge place here. And I'm saying you can run for 30 minutes and exhaust yourself and have the time of your life this morning. But if I see you trying to kill that squirrel, I will tell you that that's a bad idea. And if you insist to kill it, I will stop you. Mm-hmm. And other than that, go on. But often an electric collar is used for recall, isn't it? You're running away and I want you to come back. You can do that, yeah, sure. So that's... I mean, that's... From what I understand, that's one of the main reasons

people use an electric collar is because their dog has poor recall. So what you're saying is... You can use electric collar in many instances. But generally, that's what... Those I know that get them... Well, that use them is because they want the dog to come back and they're worried about them running off. So I'm asking, is there an example of when an aversive in nature asks the animal to come towards the giver of that aversive? Or if you've got a prong collar, you're using aversive and you're asking the animal to stay close to you and that's a safety thing in nature. I just... Before I answer, I really want to understand. So just one more time. You don't need to change it. You can just repeat it again. So aversives are about keeping an animal alive, aren't they? Not always. No, no, no. Not always, no. Aversives are part of life. And it's not about... But it's about safe... I mean, it goes... No, no, no, no, no. It's not about... It can be a game. In England, you have a game. Ah, now you're talking... You put that... Yes, I remember you saying... Talking about the... What do you call it? Hot hands? Well, there is hot hands, but you have that really cool game in England where there is like the obstacles humans run and they get hit by this... It's a choice. When you're playing a game, it's a choice. Right, right, right, right. Okay, you've chosen to play the game. Right. Does the animal choose? Yeah. But the animal hasn't chosen. The animal hasn't said, I want to do this. The animal is subject to the handler and has to do what the handler asks. I just told you... Two dogs choose to play by biting each other. A mom dog choose to punish a puppy because that's what moms do. And they say, Ouch, that hurt. Piss off, doesn't it, isn't she? Yeah. Mm-hmm. She's saying, Ouch, that hurt. Piss off, isn't she? For the... Right, right. And the puppy doesn't say, Oh, fuck. I will never come near my mom ever again. But it's teaching about that hurt, don't do it. Yeah? Move away. But when you use an aversive with the animal trapped... But they also do it to play. Softer bites. As I said, it's not softer bites. They bite each other way harder than... But, okay. Okay, so they are playing, but if they don't like the play, they move away. When we're playing tag, when we're playing hot hands, if we've had enough, we stop. Mm-hmm. But if we're training a dog to do something, we're focused on getting the dog to do what we're training them to do, the dog doesn't have the chance to say, Actually, I've had enough of this. Yeah, in some situations, it's the same with people. Sometimes that's... I know where you're going, and giving a dog a choice and asking a dog for consensus.

This is so far-fetched. But we are putting on the dog, I want you to sit, I want you to stay, I want you to... Whatever. Yeah, why do we do that, do you think? So, we do that for safety reasons, we do it for lots of... There's lots of... We also want to show how clever we are. No, no, it's not... It's okay. It's not about to show how clever we are. Like, you teach your kid some house rules to begin with. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Why do you do that? So, it's the social skills. So, generally, what is expected is we want a dog to walk nicely on a lead, to come back when we call them, and not do anything embarrassing, so that they are social animals that can fit in with our social construct of what life should be. Mm-hmm. And people choose to train those in different ways, and some people are chaotic and don't manage to train it at all. Right. And that doesn't matter which approach you're taking, though. So, I feel very sad when people are taking an approach that they don't really understand what's going on for the dog in the process. Yes. I would, too. For sure. I mean, not respecting and not having... Respecting the dignity of the animal and, you know, making it... Yeah. No argument there. Mm-hmm. But some things are super simple. But what's super simple? Some things that you ask the dog to do or not do. Like, you can... But it's... You can walk the dog on the street. My dog hates going out on the street. Right. And my dog likes it. Yeah. So... She shrinks down. I respect that your dog... She gets overwhelmed. Right, right, right, right. She gets overwhelmed by the nose. Exactly. So... I respect you of not taking your dog on the street and doing the right thing for your dog, 100%. My dog loves the street. My dog also knows that just because a kid runs by, no, you're not allowed to tug the kid or threaten it in any way. These are just common rules on the sidewalk. Mm-hmm. Just as people have the same rules. And I'm not gonna fry your brains out. I'll tell you that that's inappropriate, just as I would do with everything. And then you... If you persist, I will show you that that's a bad idea. And if you persist, eventually you're gonna reach your level that you will say, okay, I admit. Just as you drive fast, the car pulls you over and says, Jenny, don't do that. Have a nice day. Just a warning. But then they see you tomorrow and it's like, okay, Jenny, you had a warning. I'm writing you a ticket. They see you the next day. It's like, Jenny, we're gonna have to take your license for six months. And eventually you're either gonna learn to accept the rules or you're not gonna have a car. Like... Yeah, so, but if it's your dog, have you taken into... I mean, I'm sure you would do

because you're very sensitive. But I do know, you know, that how often are people aware that actually their dogs are not, are overwhelmed by the environment, you know, and rather, going straight for punishment rather than thinking, actually, this dog isn't coping with the place that they're in. Sure, sure, sure. Of course, I agree. Yeah, yeah. You know, that so often gets missed. Yeah, you can do, you can absolutely do bad things. But as I said, because we think that positive reinforcement is so benign, dogs can get euthanized, dogs can get in a shelter, dogs can bite a kid. A lot of things can equally happen. for different reasons. But the damage is the same to the animal. But I think, but it's very easy to blame positive reinforcement for the euthanasia when actually it's just, you know, quite often it's a chaotic lifestyle and it's an inappropriate purchase. So I can say the same on the other side. So once again, you can see the similarities. Yeah. it's, it's, yeah. I mean, you know, you, you know what you're doing. I, you know, we have very different viewpoints on that. Right, right. Yeah. But what is missing is that conversation that you and I have. And this is the reason I wanted you to come. And I really appreciate that we're having that conversation simply because we can actually talk to each other and walk away from that podcast and have some things to think about. Yeah, no, it's been good. It's been really good. And I, you know, I, it's a bit, there's a really good book by, it's called The Invisible Gorillas. Have you come across it? No, no. Really recommend it. It's about how you go into this, there's a really good, there's a really good YouTube, which if you have never watched it, just watch the YouTube first before you do anything else. But it talks about how we perceive things. And it, one of the things they talk about in the book is that they go out into the street and ask people to describe a bicycle. People say, oh yeah, I can describe a bicycle. And actually, oh no, can I draw a bicycle? Unless you've actually dismantled a bicycle, you don't actually know what a bicycle looks like. And many people cannot draw a bicycle because they actually don't know what it looks like. And I think that's really helpful to, you know, have had this conversation. Right. You know, I will never change my beliefs because I feel very strongly. But what you're telling me is actually I need to get that argument much more fine-tuned and really understand what I believe. Yeah, I don't want you to change your belief, but I want you to be able to do, to have the education to make your choice of what decision you take and take under considerations things that typically kind of are rushed, they're said and they feel

one way or another, but nobody ever sits and thinks about it and that's a problem of where we are. And we take bits of information and put them together. There are many times pet owners that have had bad experience with somebody that uses aversive method and they go to a trainer that uses forcibly method and they're successful. I don't think anything wrong with that. Hats off, you found something that works for you and your dog. How can you argue with that? who cares at the end of the day what's going on? Family's happy, dog's alive, everything is good. That happens on both sides every day. Hmm. Every day. And then there is the bad side that happens on both sides every day. Yeah, I mean... And if we think and work together we actually can get somewhere and we can really get somewhere. But the one side insists to absolutely take charge and not allow the other side to do what they can do really good. And there is no argument. Like when you are talking about it, there is zero argument that aversives are very important and that they are not... Have you seen the video that I have about what science says about... I watched it with intrepidation. I watched it thinking am I going to have to change what I think? For me, I was completely reassured that I don't have to change my viewpoint. But yes... So... Yeah. I suppose my overroading thought is do we let our ego... We mustn't let our egos take greater priority than the animal's welfare. I think that's the problem with dog ownership in general is that we can all let that... Yeah, I think that's really not the case and that's why I think when we're talking about when you are... when you feel responsible and when you're trying to do the best you can and something is not working you are obligated to try something different if you care. Hmm. Not about your ego. That's not at all about your ego. That's my dog. I mean if I cannot stop him with electric collar or if I'm stopping him with electric collar but he looks miserable that's an easy decision for me. A very easy

decision for me. But when it comes down to if you are convinced and again when I'm saying you it means the force-free community that I'm doing something very horrible to my dogs without ever being with me and my dogs. you're just making an assumption based on absolutely knocking. It's like the biggest speculation and you're so firm in your belief that I am mistreating my dogs. I get really noticed actually I think because there's so much out there about animal welfare and electric collar at this point I'm saying whether it's right or not because it's out there I do feel that very many people feel judged I get a sense of I use electric collar and I feel judged I don't know whether you would say that for say it one more time so it's not about so the information is out there in many places about the welfare issues of electric collars whether it's I'm not arguing whether it's correct or not but there is a lot of information out there and what does the information say about that it compromises animal welfare you know you talk about Germany you know lots of places have banned electric collars no no I know how many countries trust me I know exactly how many countries I know every single study and I have spent at least I have spent an incredible amount of time on every single study dissecting it ! So I know all that but it's irrelevant it's irrelevant it's irrelevant that there is a statement out there whether it's right or not there is a statement floating around electric collars affect animal welfare whether you know it's like you know the sky is blue so because that statement is out there I get the impression that very many people who do use electric collars have a sense of being judged because they use them whether they you know there is a sense of having to justify their use of that information you know so there's there's almost it's there's the conversation isn't happening very well because because of those two things right I tell you why the conversation is not happening good it's there's like a there's few reasons but one big one is somebody makes a study with 20 dogs and says well these dogs are traumatized and they there's a lot of side effects found in the study and then when somebody like me tries to talk to the people that have made the study they are nowhere to be found so I have talked to Daniel Mills Lincoln University he's a professor and he's like very well known and very legit in what he does he did a study and then there was a sub study I contacted him to talk and I had the same approach like okay you you're a scientist you come up with a conclusion if you are true science wouldn't you want in some way to challenge your findings and

validate them well he agreed to talk to me but not on the podcast we all need to feel in control don't we I mean I then I tried few more times and it didn't happen there is so he finds out and he lists in the study many many things he says that there are videos he says a lot of things everything that he says I have big question marks I have some questions to ask he can convince me I'm intelligent enough that I can pay attention he can convince me but I have questions why do you not want to answer why do you not want to engage in this and convince me and instead of you choosing the route to look down on me and use the government to do something if you have the solution why nobody is teaching it anywhere because we want to learn like if you tell me that you can do something really better than what I do I don't care what way it is bottom line it's ethical it's efficient like I have all the reasons to learn it but you're not teaching me what you do you're only telling me your findings and that this is good and this is bad I find that a huge problem and this is the main reason that you and I are talking because we are able to talk at least you can convince me I enjoy talking sorry this is what people do we talk we challenge each other's ideas we sometimes agree on something sometimes we don't sometimes we sleep on it and we change our minds even as you said I'm not going to change my mind I found it really helpful seeing your presentation how many hours did you put into that this is what I do yeah yeah but it was what was really helpful is for me there wasn't enough from the present from what you presented I mean we won't talk about it here but for what you presented there wasn't enough to convince me that I should change my position but that's good to have but actually I need to know more about the other side right and you changing your position versus a professional that understands it that is on my level it's very different conversation that I can have with somebody else sometimes if we're scientists we're not so good at talking you know I don't know but I do know that very many scientists and they are hugely skilled at their science but having a conversation do you remember what like something does something specific comes to mind in my presentation that you disagreed with oh my goodness

I just felt I think there was a lot of science there but there wasn't any recent science there was a lot of recent science there was science that is very recent I was horrified actually at the I mean I'd never discovered them before and you had some science of electrocuting children in a facility somewhere where they changed their behavior no there was some adults with learning disabilities that's a different thing that's a very different conversation it has nothing to do with that presentation oh sorry I'm thinking about the wrong one then am I thinking you did quite well thought through presentation about why science isn't correct is that the one you're talking about you're talking about a different one yeah but what you're talking is very different it was a podcast that I had with somebody it has nothing to do with the presentation that I did oh no you quoted the study I looked up the studies you done in that presentation I looked up to see to sort of follow up and see a bit more about it yeah so I trust me I know what I talked about so there is nothing about autistic children and shocking there is nothing like that in the presentation there was some work done in the 90s where they had some electrodes that they used to use in a behavior modification center there was anyone in the country that used them yeah it has nothing to do with the presentation and so this is the like like when you asked me it was it was about talking about that it changed behavior I can't remember because when you it was a tiny bit of it I just I enjoyed searching it out and finding out the information yeah so that's what makes it difficult to have a conversation over something that you you cannot nothing nothing is standing out for you you just don't like it at least for the moment no no it wasn't it was the argument wasn't strong enough for me with the science that but which one it was a very long presentation yeah pick one yeah oh i can i can dissect every single study right now you can just ask me about any of the force free no i can't remember because that's what i do right yeah one thing i did notice was you talking about the hot hands you had a little picture of children doing hot hands in that you talked about hot hands in that yeah presentation yeah and i remember thinking well those children have choice about whether they're going to play or not so as far as whether aversives okay so i'll give you example of how the dog has a choice playing hot hands it's a forced choice so it's your punishment there isn't it carry on that's what hot hands is right it's a game it's a game of a ! right yeah and if you don't want ! to play you stop playing right yeah yeah yeah yeah so so if I have a rope and I show it to my dog and he says yeah let's dog let's fight let's see who's winning and then I say yeah let's go and I play on his level sometimes he wins sometimes I win and

sometimes because he really wants to win he trying to bend the rules just like you bend the rules in any game and when you bend the rules there are consequences that's in every game yeah so when he decides that he's not going to buy the toy but he's going to try to push me with his teeth to let go to bite me he's pushed his arousal state up no no there is no arousal state it's just a game but his arousal has ! gone up because you're playing the game he's enjoying the game his arousal state has gone up and then he's not thinking as well as he used to he's thinking very well he's just bending the rules his arousal state has gone up it has to if he's enjoying the game you've pushed his arousal up sure but it's not that he's not thinking so he's reduced ability to regulate himself no that can be one reason another reason is just bending the rules and trying to win the game what every game every game you think of soccer sometimes somebody's going to score and they're going to use their hand they're going to fell down and pretend that they got hurt every game that it's played that has some objective and you're motivated to win you're always seeking an opportunity to bend the rules somewhat if you can and see if that slides that's why you have red card and yellow card and that's why in the hockey game you sit in the bench and so on every single game so hot game hot hands tug of war I cannot force my dog to play tug of war if he doesn't want to can I no no I can't remember what the context stay with stay with me can I force my dog to play tug of war or not I cannot Jenny I cannot please I cannot if he's not motivated he's not going to play ! My dog will not play my dog will not play it doesn't matter your dog we're talking about my dog okay so he decides to get me on my finger so I can let go so he can win and I stop the game and say hey hey off limits against the rules let's get back to the game that's aversive that's hot hands that's any game most interesting games have some element of aversive that's what makes a lot of games interesting but he has choice if he was upset by it that's my point he does have a choice I'm not forcing him at any time and I am using aversive and he still has choice and he is choosing to stay in the game yeah yeah his choice but often when we use aversives the dog doesn't don't go anywhere stay with me okay okay okay so in the context of a game that the dog is choosing to play with me and I'm not forcing him I establish certain rules how we gonna play you buy the toy you don't bite me and so on there is quite a few rules if I tell you to let go you let go you don't argue with me so then we can move on so the game can become more interactive and we can have a lot of fun and when you go off there is some penalty just like in any game

but in the games the dogs like to play there is no like he will it's like okay yeah and on top of that he can even try again to get my finger because he knows that it works sometimes and then the penalty will increase and then sometimes because he knows how the consequences can go eventually I can say no don't do that he's like oh I know better I made them I didn't mean to okay that's okay let's go play or no I mean to what is wrong with that is it the dog has a choice so yeah talk to me about that yeah so yeah so but I can't remember the context I mean you've spent a lot of time well the context was that dogs don't have a choice and they're obligated to stay there and they cannot walk away when they don't like it and I just gave you an example that that's not the case that's a lovely game with the dog but I I'd have to go back and read it but it gave the impression that aversives are natural and actually it's okay to use aversives because it's part of but it's the context in which the aversive is used and yes if an aversive allows the dog to get away from what's unpleasant then that's as it is in nature but if the dog remains close to what was the aversive then a dog won't feel safe yeah so what I've been trying that whole podcast to do and not successful but hopefully when we end and in the week from now you can think a little bit and we can go back and forth on some messages is everything that I say instead of looking into it it's a very big hesitation and trying to argue it against you're not trying to at no point you have tried to look into is there any logic of what Ivan is saying can we agree on that one yeah there was lots of logic there was lots of logic but it didn't convince me that I should change my approach on whether to so you think I should not be allowed to have electric collar I mean that's you know well I'm okay with you driving even though many people died today I mean I cannot argue why can we not respect each other that's the thing I feel very strongly about animal welfare ! that you have a much more superior hand and you are looking down on me as far as ethics and morals and how I treat animals our perspectives are very different I mean you know they are very different but what makes you think that I am not even close to where you are because I think I am above you and I am not joking with that ! yeah yeah so what human and everything treating animals I wouldn't say I wouldn't say it's above or below I say we just are on different sides of the river that you know I think you know we're on different sides of the river trying to understand how we both navigate through a complicated world with everything else that you know is coming our way and from my perspective

on my side of the river the information I have from those that I trust that an electric collar for me and animal welfare don't go together I don't have your experience but I do have a lot of experience of humans but I don't have experience of dogs and I think the biggest thing for me is the fact that you are a role model for so many people and I go into houses where I know that they are following role models really badly so you don't think that I have the ability and the knowledge and experience to teach people correctly and decide who may or may not have it I I think if they came to see you you would have that you know you have enough experience to work out from your perspective but you are globally recognized so if you think that we take the electric collar off the table let's say we ban it it's done what happens next in your mind I think there's a lot of very worried people who have used their skills using electric collar and now are petrified because they don't have that have on the table and they haven't got other skills on how to manage their dogs I think that's what I see I think it's a bit like you know you swing with armbands and then they say okay take your armbands off I think I think that's a big worry for people that they have used they have learned their skills using an electric collar and I think I can feel it's my opinion I'm talking more let me kind of narrow that question sorry I'm talking more about the people that don't have the IQ to use it intelligently and will because this is your concern these are the people that we need to stop using the electric collar many people don't understand what they do so all these many people we stop them from using electric collar what happens next for them what do you think they do so there are lots of people who have their dogs on lead some of them will take an effort to access things I mean where I live here in the UK there are very few people are embarrassed that they do have an electric collard but you know it's very rare for people to have one you know in places where they're banned in Wales and whatever people do different things yes there are plenty of dogs out of control everywhere you know I think that's a given really isn't it but what we should be doing is supporting what will happen to those people that don't have the intelligent way to use it humanely and safely and they will they are the people they're not using it safely anyway right right that's what I'm saying yeah there are many of them right and we ban them you guys are not allowed anymore ! to use ! ! you have no idea how to treat an animal so what do we do next what do they do well I mean yes some people will go underground and carry on using them and that won't change and what else people will search out for help some will search out for help you know yeah so the reason they're using it is because whatever they're doing but a huge portion of those people will end up using some form of a verse that will in fact be far more dangerous and

damaging than what Germany what they do in Germany now I mean you must have followed up you know what the results of not having them there yeah I follow everybody I trust me so what's happened in Germany nothing has changed the not seen in front that's what happened in Germany kind of went underground and it's very easy because I have looked into even the sales of electric collars they didn't change the number of orders they're still the same nothing is changing but it becomes dangerous because people like me in Germany that know what to do they're afraid to educate now and people are experimenting and doing by trial and error figuring things out behind doors that cannot be good which they were doing anyway weren't they I mean people you know and that's the problem that you have with banning anything so there needs to be a greater promotion on better animal welfare how to I'm not saying there is no room for improvement there's huge room for improvement there's that we don't I know that I have a solution but banning it I don't see nothing happened and on top of that again if we're talking that oh it's working the force free really works well if it really worked you cannot give a green light to the army to use them why do they have a green light because they need it and because there is no other option do you know that in England in the proposal that didn't go through which I'm happy and you're unhappy about in that proposal they're giving exemption to the military dogs they can and this is a tricky one no it's nothing tricky the reason they can is because at some places it comes down to something of importance it doesn't it's no longer a game of who likes what it actually is very important and when there is no other option and solution that can replace it that's what happens you get an exemption just something to think about yeah no it is I mean there are moral issues there but I mean every culture has different moral issues yeah no it's good food for thought it was good I think we had good time hopefully yeah yeah no plenty food for thought I can you know it's always good to be challenged because if you know you as you say and it goes both ways I mean it is very interesting for me to have conversation with you because I get to understand you and maybe you have something maybe I need to go back and sit and think on something you know but we we are very quick right now to make decisions based on emotions and not based

on knowledge like a specific expert knowledge exactly yeah but that that was fun that was fun I know it's late in there so my brain hurts yeah anyway I mean we went for quite some time and I know it's late there it's midnight here right right right so thank you thank you for really for having the courage and hopefully I wasn't like I sincerely had a conversation so hopefully you had fun cool that's good cool okay all right Jenny have a good night maybe we talk again why not take care have Thank you.