Training Without Conflict® 팟캐스트 에피소드 59; Dr. Orion

Great. We have so much to talk and you're right. And you're right, it's not, you know, the other side of the aisle. It's not, we just have different takes. We see things, we have disagreements and some are pretty strong. I highly doubt that we're going to convince each other today of anything. Yeah, probably not. Correct. But what we can do is we can at least present the different sides and allow people to make their choices and hopefully do some research on their own. And if that's of interest, right? Because it's not everybody's dish. So how, like, how do you see what is the connection between dog training and veterinary behavior? It's so as far as I know, and I can, you know, I can definitely speak for myself and speak for colleagues that I'm much more familiar with. I don't know every single veterinary behavior is out there or more specifically behavior specialist, veterinary behavior specialist. And maybe we should make this distinction between the terminology. Please. Because I do think it's important. A veterinary behaviorist is kind of like a more, or a behaviorist in general, right? It's a more general definition. I know that some will use that terminology for people with a PhD and not necessarily veterinarians. Even if, you know, their PhD was about veterinary or animal behavior, but they're not veterinarians. I think many years ago, the late Dr. Sophia Yin said that a behaviorist is either a diplomat of something like the American College of Veterinary Behavior, so a specialist. There's also a European and Australian college. There are different colleges around the world. Or is someone that is kind of like a PhD in the field. But everyone technically, as far as I know, legally can say that they're a behaviorist. Even a dog trainer can say that he is a behaviorist. Oh, even a dog trainer? I was just going to say that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, because, you know, we all do behavior. To some extent. To some extent. Yeah, no problem. Behavior specialists, or specifically veterinary behavior specialists, the only people that can use that term, and it's a law, right? I mean, it's something that if someone is calling himself a Veterinary Behavior Specialist, and he's not, and he's actually doing something against the law. Those are only people that did a residency, studied and treated dogs for usually a minimum of three years and a minimum of something like 400 dogs that they treated. And, of course, submitted, published a paper, a scientific paper, and case reports, and passed a very long and hard test. And only they are allowed to call themselves Veterinary Behaviorist.

Doesn't, I'm not saying that, you know, PhDs are worse than Veterinary Specialists, but it's important to know that the terminology is very different. Yeah, I mean, for sure. For sure. No, that was, we were just trying to kind of differentiate between the different levels of who calls themselves behaviorist and the different degrees of knowledge, year spent, and so on. And then clearly, at least in United States, the top of the, as far as you can go, that would be the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists. I think that's probably the most demanding and the most, let's say, that there's actually a legal, in a way, a legal definition for it. Right. Than anything else. And you have much, much more. I mean, like, you know, in your, and that's kind of sounds almost wrong to say, but just for the sake of conversation, like, like your basic veterinary school, probably what? Like you have like a lecture or five on, like there is nothing really in depth. Some schools. Yeah. And there are studies about that as well. But some schools, sadly, even nowadays that we know how important behavior is for everything, for the wellbeing. We know that dogs with behavior issues are very likely to be surrendered to shelters and euthanized, right? And sadly, some schools still don't have any behavior lectures or courses. It is getting better and better. But let's say that when I was a VENT student many years ago, we only, and I think that that's still kind of like the norm. There's only one course in most cases, like one semester. Right. It teaches the basics and basics. Usually, you know, like learning theories. Right. It does go like quick and dirty about the medications and stuff like that. But, but yes, it is true that most veterinarians don't have a broad enough understanding of veterinary medicine. Yes. Sorry, veterinary behavioral medicine. And well, but that's why we have the, the next level, right? Because like some, some, some veterinarians are just not interested in, and it's not a, yeah, it's just not emphasized. And that's fine. Yeah. A lot of them are afraid just because of how complex it is. And actually I'll go back to your original question about like behavior specialists and dog trainers. Most or all of the behavior specialists that I know, including me, usually work with a trainer. Usually it's either, for example, I think that most of my referrals actually come from dog trainers. Right. Not, not from other veterinarians, but actually from dog trainers.

And even if they do come to me from a veterinary, another veterinarian in probably 90% of the cases, I will actually tell them that they should reach out to a dog trainer. Mm-hmm . And not because I don't think that I know how to do train dogs and, you know, cause I did learn it, but I just, you know, the time that needs to be spent with a trainer and the way that trainers actually work with the owner one-on-one and with, of course, the pet is very much different to the way that most of us, especially it's work. Right. Very true. Because we mainly do a consultation. It's more like sitting with a psychiatrist in a room and talking and then, you know, seeing how the dog behaves and all of that. Mm-hmm . It's let, and then we do give recommendations, right? But they're usually in some, depending on the case, of course, but many times they might be too broad and you still want them to go to the trainer. Correct. So as far as I can tell, and as far as I know, we work hand in hand with dog trainers. We're not trying to replace trainers. Yeah. Very, very, I'm fully aware of that. But I know that we are so short on time. Like we're not, I mean, hour and a half is plenty of time. And I really appreciate that you were able to scramble and make it work this way. Cause I, after you've seen my podcast, I kind of like to take it super slow and ramble back and forth. And, and today I'm, I had to prepare myself. Like I have notes all over my desk here, which is super unusual. I mean, worst case, if people like it, we can always meet again. Very cool. I I'm sure we, we should, let's see how it goes. Of course. Yes. Let me tell you a little bit about, because it is just something that we, I don't think it's ever even come up in podcasts or anything that I do. But I, I came in, in the States in like early nineties. I took two courses in Cornell. Mm-hmm. And it was, you know, dog training and dog behavior. And it was, I mean, the people that I will tell you, of course, you, you, they're very, no, they're, they're just top of the leaders of it, the industry. Dr. Katrin Haupt, Soraya, Jurabe Diaz, Ilana Reisner and so on. Yes. So I'm, trust me when I tell you, I have taken a lot of time in my life to study. I do not have the PhD, but I don't watch soap operas. I don't know. Like all I do is books and courses and webinars. And believe it or not, I probably have seen more. What was it? The, the American college webinars that they've have done most veterinarians do.

And when they do it, some of them, just like in the dog training world, like you will have police officer that goes to a workshop just because it's their job. And they have to, they don't have any interest. Yeah. They're just, it's a payday. So I know that a lot of veterinarians perhaps do the same. Some are super interested and some do it just because they have to. Well, in my case it's voluntary. So I, I'm really like, I study this stuff. So I don't want you to, to think that some, you know, like, like whenever we get into the discussion, I will try to really back up my claims and my reasoning behind what I'm saying. But I just kind of thought that it's important to mention that as much as I'm in dog training, I am very, very interested. And I believe that I'm very up to date on what goes on. Yeah. No, I know. You know, I watched also like in preparation for our meeting today, I also watched a lot of your videos. And, you know, I did see the people that you had on, on the podcast before me, including, you know, people that I wish I had the chance to speak to, you know, like people like Dr. Mech, that, you know, that, that everyone still quotes the alpha theory and, and the alpha wolf and stuff like that. And also on your podcast is saying like, that's not exactly how you need to use it, but you know, great scientists and, and, yeah. So, so trust me, I know. Yes, yes, very good. What are, like, I know we're going to hit the SSRIs, we're going to hit electric callers or shock callers, whatever we're going to call it. But what are, what are like dog trainers, like not, not in the medical sphere, but, but the actual dog trainers that you not necessarily look up to, but, but they're like, you can say, well, this is somebody that I, I trust that they have knowledge that they treat the dog with ethically and, and so forth. Mm-hmm. Who comes to mind? So like, what am I looking for? No, who comes to mind, like in, in, as far as like in the dog training field. I mean, if, if somebody does, if not, it's no problem. Oh, you mean like celebrity dog trainers? Yeah. Yeah. Like, like, you know, like we can agree. Well, just as you mentioned, Cesar Milan time and, and the way you said it, I already know how you are. Yeah. How you feel about it. Yeah. So like on the other side, who, who is the person that comes to mind? Right. So I would say again, people like Susan Garrett, that, that you also had online, on the podcast. Um, not everything, but there is, I forgot her last name. I think her first name is Emily. Uh, her YouTube channel is a Kiko pop. Oh yeah.

It's not, but, but yeah, if you kick up up by itself, some things that Zach George does, not everything. Uh, and even, uh, uh, Steelwell, I think her name is. Yeah. Victoria. The British. Okay. Yeah. Victoria Steelwell. Okay. So yes, mainly the, um, you know, what's considered the reward based trainers. Yeah. I still work with, with trainers that are not reward based. You do. But I do, I don't send anyone away. You know, again, they, they, even they come to me. I look with this dog. Uh, in some cases I, we can, we can like, you know, have a debate if it works, uh, for, for every dog, but the dogs that I usually see in most cases, their aggression, if we're talking about aggression and that's actually the most common thing that I see is due to fear aggression. And in those cases, for example, using something aversive, something that scares the dog or hurts the dog even more has a very high chance of making things even worse. So in those situations, of course I will tell them, look, I think that in this case, we shouldn't be using this technique. Um, so, you know, I don't publicly, yes, I am trying to kind of push people more into the reward based training because they, and you know, kind of like what you mentioned before the, uh, the AFSA of the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior is, and of course, our college, the, and by the way, I'm not representing them. I'm not the, I mean, in a way I am representing them, but not officially. Right. Yeah. Correct. But in, in, I am actually a member of the AFSA. Nobody is paying me. Uh, I actually pay them. Yes. To be a member. Uh, same goes for the American college of veterinary behaviors. And we try to rely on the most current, but actually also very old scientific data. And right now, most of it, or at least the better studies do show that the reward based training seems to be more effective, more effective in more cases. Okay. Again, later we can discuss other studies as well, but. Yes, yes, yes. I would love to know you, you just got my respect for, for the fact that you will not turn away somebody, regardless of how they see the industry and their understanding. If they're coming to you to search for help, you're willing to do that. And, and, and you just, uh, um, you have my respect for that a hundred percent. Um, because this is not the case. Um, and I can tell you from my personal experience, I've had, uh, I've had some difficult dogs. Um, I am quite well off where I am in my life. I do not need to train those. The only reason I train those is because it is something, something has to come to me.

That is incredibly interesting and challenging to the point that I would not be able to sleep at night and I would go and open all the books again. And I will, I will just like, my mind will just get excited. Yeah. But that's not always, you know? So anyway, um, when I have a case like that, I always try. And I have tried a few times to work with a, um, veterinary behavior specialist. And one of, and I'm not, there is no point to, to mention names and this is pointless. Um, because it's not, it's really not a personal thing. And I understand, uh, the reasons behind why would you accept or not accept. And, but it was just disappointing to me that, um, it was a very, very, yeah. Um, yeah. Um, one of the, the most influenced people, um, board director, um, just looked at my Facebook or whatever social media is like, I don't think we can work together simply because, um, and, and, and I started, I didn't hide. Of course. I mean, there's nothing, I'm not ashamed of who I am and what I do. I can argue with anybody that I love dogs and I'm passionate and I would do anything. If we just don't agree on, on certain things, but that's fine. Um, but, um, when I, when I approached them, it was very honest. I, I am like this who I am. This is what I do. I do, but I'm willing, I want to help this dog and I'm willing to do like exactly by, like, no, you will have no better client than me because I will do it exactly how you want. it's good for my experience i want to experience that side for one and of course if if we're gonna help the dog why not i mean why not right i mean that's the goal that's that's what we all want that was upsetting that didn't work out um eventually i have worked with a local specialist again and and you know yeah pretty good but it's not the norm it's it's a there is a thing about well if you're using aversive we cannot work with you that's a that's a it lingers always around and i mean i'm not i'm not sure i never did a survey right so i can't say that for sure i mean i can tell you that again most of the behavior specialists that i know will not send away someone just because he's working with a trainer that works in a specific way they might try to educate because again even me i'm saying that my preference is the reward-based training is the force-free training positive reinforcement whatever you want to call him right right yeah that's that's you know that's that's my preference as well but we try to educate we try to see what works best and how we can actually be on the same page i do admit that you know if i get a dog again like let's say

an example of an aggressive dog and he is fearful and that's the cause for the aggression and the owners are very adamant about shocking him every time he growls for example it concerns me because you know let's let's say kind of for a second i'm going to jump to something that we're going to discuss a bit later but let's say the dog we also thought that the dog needs some sort of medication some sort of behavioral medication psychoactive medication i don't want the owners to think that that's the treatment that it's like a magic drug that's going to fix everything uh because the behavior modification part the environmental management is in most cases so much more important than using those psycho psychoactive medications and if i have someone that does something that i really like training wise doing something that i really think is gonna basically prevent us from reaching correct a result probably not a resolution an improvement of of the problematic behavior then not because i'm mad of them or anything like that just because i think you're not the end result correct exactly and it's going to be the way a waste of their time a waste of their money and then they're going to end up maybe even upset about me and might start saying you see we told you that medication is bs medications don't work yeah they they don't again it's not like a magic thing right it's not like a one and done so yeah even if it's the best and it's the right medication if we don't do the rest of the stuff correctly not we're not going to get results and that's very important to know about using medications yeah no i i i'm very very very well put here okay ori let's uh i guess um we can we can really start with pretty much with your reply to what i said yeah on my channel as far as uh the the difference of and and like for anybody that hasn't seen this i will we will put links to those and but but in a nutshell i was just saying that you know i i do appreciate veterinary behaviors but there is there is certain line that we one industry knows more than the other and and and um and i do have problems with the um ssris in particular and psychotropic and in mind um uh altering medications um and and so then ori made a i made a funny cartoon and of course it's a cartoon and i hope you understand that but there is even though it's a cartoon just like any comedy there is actually a lot of truth in it and what i mean by truth is my truth and and you disagree with that and that's kind of how we came to talk about it and yes and so in your explanation

and i really kind of you know i really appreciated how you did it because i felt like you were talking like you genuinely were talking to me and i don't know if that was the case but anyway was it was different for me it was cool yeah but it was i mean you did right there at the end that you know right you would like to discuss it with someone who knows yes hopefully i am that someone that's why also we're doing this so let's go um the the first thing and maybe not the first that you said but one of the important things that you brought in is that the ssris brings serotonin level to normal and make the brain work normally yes so my question that i hopefully we can unpack somehow what where is the scientific definition of what is a normal serotonin level in dogs or in humans that's right it's a good question um i hope because you know i'm trying to kind of like uh just pull out the the studies from my head technically we don't have tons of studies in animals uh you know usually a lot of what we deal with is kind of like used from the human side of things but you mentioned uh dr elana raisner which is also a behavior specialist and as far as i remember it was her study that actually checked the levels of different um neurotransmitters or different let's say products of neurotransmitters in in the blood not in the brain in the brain you know it's it's there's no real way to measure what's going on right now in the brain without basically killing them i mean you can measure electrical activity but we can't measure proteins to that level yet it's something that i think in the future is going to be something that we'll be able to do but right now usually we cannot measure the blood and saying that there might be some but we have to agree that measuring serotonin in blood level uh level serotonin in blood it's not not uh a good meat measure i i can't tell you if it's good or not good that but sadly you know that's basically what what we have we have different uh things like that right dna right so so what i'm going with this is that and and i i really i have as i say i try to search especially nowadays with all the ai options yeah there is there is like it it's almost impossible to hide a study like even if it's done 1937 or yesterday and it's done by one person that nobody knows a certain program will pull it out yes and i have done tried this for for many years and now with of course with the modern opportunity with ais and you know i i still do i have not found anything that can back up that claim and and and what i'm saying like if there was

a study i don't i know i don't find it with dogs with animals or with humans and what that actually and i'm trying to you mean uh um the just as i was saying the what is the normal serotonin level and how do we measure it yeah right so that's a big problem that's kind of like you know we go with correlation many times right not with an actual number but that's also true for sorry for any measurement in the blood right because for one animal t4 might be between this and this the thyroid level for any other another one it's going to be different so we also go with correlations for example here between the blood and the brain and we see okay in dogs or in people that are anxious or depressed we see that when we measure those serotonin levels in their blood they're lower then if we compare them to another group that doesn't complain about aggression or about depression or about that so again there is correlation not necessarily we we can say for sure but that's that's how we go and of course we also do clinical studies to try and see if using the medication that is supposed to increase serotonin or other neurotransmitters to see if it's actually changing the behavior yeah so even these studies are are you know there is two that come to mind and and they are heavily based on on uh on our survey which we know very well what what that means um and and what i was really looking forward to is if there is any evidence i'm not interested in the theory we know the theory it's been said like you can go to any vet clinic and you can get any pamphlet or you can watch tv and it will show up we we know the narrative yeah and we know the theory and we know the hypothesis behind but but the actual evidence that's interesting to to see um um you said that we prescribe ssris based on what we think is lacking yes so if no test confirms deficiency aren't you just guessing instead of practicing evidence-based medicine no not necessarily again it's also the same in human medicine when when it comes to behavior issues right if we see specific problems that are known to be associated with what we think is the lack of a specific neurotransmitter or or an axis of another neurotransmitter or brain activity or something like that then we choose the medications accordingly again the same in people if you even if you go and look in in the human scientific literature basically it's the same they don't have studies that can actually measure those things so you want to say that basically we're guessing yeah yes in a way yes i i admit that in a way we're

guessing but it's let's say in a way educated guesses and again seeing the response in even in surveys seeing the response to specific treatments does give us some proof and you can say the same thing about not even just medications right i mean how do you decide if using the shock collar is effective or not you see that you see that the dog is not showing the behavior anymore we'll get yes correct correct very true um so you you kind of go back and forth and i do too between human psychiatry and veterinary behaviors uh because uh well for one reason the the there is not much with dogs that's done but i can argue that what is done with humans it's also very questionable and it's becoming to a tipping point that we need to start to think of something have at least reevaluate our perspective even even with humans um as i said i i do follow uh uh some big names in human psychiatry i talk to them and as a matter of fact as i was telling you i'm we're living to go to a championship in greece in in two days tomorrow the podcast that i was telling you that i'm gonna have is with one of those people um and and of course i like to have people like yourself that will challenge my ideas and that i will be able to challenge and maybe we of course we don't agree with each other but we walk out with some something to think of right um well the the person that i'm gonna have tomorrow he is very much on on my side of things um yes maybe i needed a boost of confidence after talking to you okay uh um so but again we we don't have tests to to confirm deficiency we don't have it in humans we don't have it in in the dogs we don't have it in animals now as far as far as i know no no here is something in the brain itself again not nothing correct if we say that we trust the correlation between what's going on in the blood or even the study that you were involved with that had measurements of cortisol in it and by the way the study that i did for my residency also tried to use cortisol as you know a measure of stress and behavior and stuff like that we do with what we can without actually harming the dog right um so so yes it's it's a kind of complicated it is super complicated super complicated because like i i totally agree with you with the dog's situation but you have a human that it's i mean they they can go in a mri and stay for an hour if they think that i mean they they will do whatever it takes to to get their mind fixed right and even just so you know there are actually sorry sorry that i'm counting you sure and i mean there are actually

studies studies behavioral studies that done on awake dogs with functional mri so you can actually train dogs uh the one that comes in mind they did a lot in budapest uh the what was the name of the center now i'm so bad with names but yeah there's like a few centers yeah yeah for sure yeah i think i know what you mean but for example i saw one that i remember that i think they checked a dog's ability to sense a heat if i remember correctly yeah it was an emotional state and then uh what part of the brain activates or exactly if if they hear a familiar voice versus some you know so so there was a lot of correlations that were not surprising at all coming out uh it's definitely not as easy as doing it in person in person in people we still don't have as far as i know the ability to measure the actual proteins the actual um you know serotonin or norepinephrine or things like that where like the amount of that in the brain but you know again that the me personally i don't think that that's the most important thing i actually think that studies that show that there is or isn't a response or improvement with the medication in case we do choose to use it are more important than quantifying things yeah um i have a so one of the other questions was that uh the the the you mentioned that low serotonin level causes aggression anxiety fear and so on yes and and um i'm not sure but um perhaps if if you are aware of studies where serotonin depletion was artificially induced in humans i have no idea yeah truthfully i don't know if it's uh i i will i'll put links to this and now i can send you in the email because they're they're very interesting i have it uh again as i said like i'm trying to simply because of time restraint i i i'm i don't want to miss things so like my i've never had a desk like this around me right now um but anyway what was very interesting and this was done as they they started to kind of really pay attention and question how how the whole thing works and is is it just big pharma machine or or you know the stories so this is done um it was published in uh springer nature 2024 so it's very very current new and and basically what they did um they reduced level of serotonin in healthy people and guess what what nothing happened so i i can answer that or at least but you can see the challenge where i'm taking you right oh no no for sure okay again it's uh let's start you know let's let's start with this question the study is called difficult by the way because it's interesting because the title is very

you know how titles matter as always yes it's also like a clickbait of course so the title says difficult lives explain depression better than broken brains i think it's a beautiful title it is and and by the way i completely agree with it again um it's and you know what that's actually something that that's important to know but you know it's hard for me to actually respond to that specific paper because because i never read it but let me let me actually ask you like a quick question first because we you just mentioned that we can't actually measure serotonin did they do something to measure it i mean how do they know that they actually reduce the amount of serotonin in the brain yeah do they say it uh yeah yeah they i mean it's a it's a pretty big uh a thing i because you know if they also measured you know some of the of the metabolites or something like that in the blood then you can argue the same way that you argue about what i mentioned good point good point um again um i i i'm pretty sure it it is here uh i just don't want to spend the time let's let's not waste our time we can table this one and definitely get to this yeah definitely i i'm really interested to to learn about that because again human medicine the brain is the brain it's 100 similar between dogs and and people and cats and other animals now but what i would like to say and that's that's really important because it's very important for example to know that the name ssri so for people that don't know it's selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors so it sounds like oh yeah it's selective right it's selective for serotonin but in reality it's not that selective we actually have an effect on more than one and neurotransmitter when we're using those selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors so and by the way there are differences between the different medications so prozac is just one example there are other medications some of them are more selective to serotonin but less selective to noradrenaline and orpinephrine and while others might be more less selective for serotonin but more selective to something else so even and that's another reason that probably those different medications work differently on on patients because it's usually not just one thing that's missing it's usually or one thing that's not working normally so for example maybe if we reduce the serotonin but other things are not affected maybe it might still be able to kind of like function normally and it's kind of like a specific balance that might be between the different things that are going on in the brain again i can't say too much

about that specific study but i will say that the brain is such a complicated machine that i don't think that even if we could measure the the levels of you know the different neurotransmitters in the brain i'm not sure that even then we would be able to know if and when specific medications might work better than others yeah yeah i i i can see that um you said something interesting and and i mean of course i i have it we go there but since we just mentioned that it we can just go over that one quickly too um something missing in the brain right so so like what's missing are we speculating or do we know what's missing because if we're speculating then um yeah we're talking about beliefs not like biological evidence no so right if if you ask i'm sure the the psychiatrist that you're gonna speak to tomorrow will be able to even pull out uh some some of those studies there are studies again they're they're done post-mortem right they're not done on real live people because you can't measure those you can measure things in the brain those type of things in the brain but you know they did test all kinds of brains from serial killers and and you know people with chronic depression that committed suicide and stuff like that so we do know some of these things does it accurately represent what's going on in the life person not necessary right we we think it does we do believe it does otherwise we wouldn't be using those medications but again i would say that to me and i think and although it is very important how the biological process actually works and and you know to know why we're using the medications that we're using um there is to me a bigger important kind of like i said before is it actually achieving anything and of course the side effects if i believe that the side effects have more you know are going to affect the the patient more than they're going to actually help him there's no way in hell that i'm going to use it if i think that the benefits are higher than the the you know the downside the side effects then i will recommend using it and not in every single case yeah yeah you made that clear and i and that's very i i believe that's the case with everybody i don't think uh like okay that there is there is no doubt there is just no doubt that uh um it's overly used in humans and it's headed that way with dogs and i will explain why i'm saying that because i i i know that by the way i agree with you okay i actually agree with you about that being overly used in dogs and cats as well yeah it's it's amazing how we

dispense meds you know and and and avsb and the human psychiatry you just do a very very good job at convincing homeowners or patients that they are safe and effective uh that that's a you know you have to otherwise would you prescribe it of course you wouldn't you you have to believe that they are so you prescribe it but again believing versus actual evidence is two different things and we get there but we do have evidence that's the question that i'm gonna have for you because i search for that uh i i mentioned something and i know that that was what really triggered our meeting and that was the dogs on meds are uh uh well yeah you said that they basically know they are numb right and you your response what dogs on men's on meds are happier not numb exactly that's the goal right so here is and and and trust me this is not a tricky question it's a very honest question that i have for you how do you objectively measure increased happiness in a sedated or emotionally flattened dog is less energy really the proof of greater well-being because you were mentioning hyper anxiety and activity and so one right right um so first by the way just you might know about this booth but you know if anyone is interested and again i'm not getting any money from anyone i'm just doing it for the sake of if people want to learn a bit more but i would say this is kind of like the our bible the veterinary psychopharmacology of course we also use other books we use a style i actually have the book here somewhere you do yeah of course i do no no it's uh and we have you know stall which is kind of like the human uh the counter books because you know there is always a counter uh uh yeah anyway let's not waste time no no no but but but again i am the way that we decide if the medication is working or not uh in not actually causing side effects or basically just numbing or flattening the dog out so of course you know we know it according to what the owner and the owners are reporting if for example i tell the owners and you know there are some side effects that might actually happen in the first the first if we're talking specifically about let's say ssris some side effects that might be much more common in the first two weeks because of how the medication itself works and the changes that actually take time and the changes in receptors and all that in the brain because by the way and that's also important because the way that i explained it is not is not entirely correct ssris don't just increase the serotonin in the brain because then you don't need ssris you need to take serotonin and

maybe that will kind of like go into your brain they actually change the receptors in the brain and they change specific receptors in the brain which will have the the behavioral effect and and let me can i stop you because you said something interesting here you know like you you um which is kind of it it's always a big question and again this is i i'm taking this straight out of human uh the the challenge that the human psychiatry has you know like like if we can we can increase subnatal serotonin levels and and and we know as you said that it could take two to four to eight weeks whatever that time period is but it's like it takes a little time for them to kick in right yes um so why is that because the evidence is that the serotonin level rises within hours after the medication is taken but it takes exactly four to eight weeks so that's that that's actually very very interesting and uh again if you really want to go into the mechanism of it i mean maybe layman because we have a different audience like i would love to hear if someone wants to dig a little bit deeper i would go with the book by stall the psycho uh pharmacology book that's a human psycho pharmacology book by style basically it's because we're not just i mean yes we're increasing the serotonin at the beginning but the actual effect is by that's why we're increasing the serotonin levels of serotonin levels of serotonin levels of serotonin and some of them are inhibitory receptors and some of them need to be basically produced so the at the beginning we actually have a very high levels of serotonin which might attach to the inhibitory receptors which is more associated with and again i'm trying not to over complicate things because it's it's complicated but basically because they attach to specific receptors in the synapses they cause those side effects and by the way they're serotonin in receptors in other parts in the body not just the brain so again they might have other side effects because of that effect and the changes in the amount of receptors and the sensitivity of those receptors that that changes take longer so that's why at the beginning when we actually have very high serotonin because of the medication and all of that we see side effects uh that are more common in the first two weeks then usually we'll see that the side effects are improving but not necessarily see the actual clinical effect the clinical effect itself takes between four to eight weeks like you mentioned and that's again that's because of the actual changes in

in in the proteins that are produced and create those receptors in the in the synapses and that takes a few weeks and only then we'll see but going back to your original question about how we actually know if it's working or not then uh side effects well not how how if it's working or not but when we say when we say how do we measure that happiness increase yeah how do we measure improvement do we agree is is less energy really a proof of better well-being no no definitely not okay definitely not so it really depends on the situation yeah if we're dealing with a dog that's you know kind of like how you would imagine a person with adhd i'm not talking about like playful behavior i'm talking about the dog that just can't relax and you know some some will also say that we don't need to treat adhd as much and it's also there's a rise in how many people are being treated for it but all right let's say that if we have a dog that you know is and it is sometimes anxiety can go both ways it can cause a dog to be hyper all the time for sure all over the place and it can cause the dog to look like you know we would use the word depressed even though we don't really know if it's actually depression and but it might go to both ways so yes sometimes it's a lot easier if you have a depressed dog or those anxious dogs that that you know are coming in a shell and all of the all of the sudden they're coming out of their shell it's a lot easier to say oh yes it's working it's harder sometimes to say when you have a dog that's all over the place but also aggressive and now he has some reduction in his activity level and i'm saying some reduction yeah right when i'm talking to to my patients and i put them on i recommend having them on a medication like that or anybody medication and that might have side effects i tell them look the dog is not supposed to be a zombie some reduction in energy that's normal i mean also depends on the dog the dog's um personality of course but dogs breed and age i mean i wouldn't expect a 10 year old um i don't know uh labrador let's let's go with labradors and i wouldn't expect a 10 year old labrador to be as active as a one-year-old labrador right so it's it's different for different uh patients and if you ever had older dogs or even mid-age dogs you know that most of them don't spend the entire day running around and playing and you know just wanting to be uh petted all the time or play all the time many of them just want to relax you know they just want to chill they are nowhere to be found that they want to see i don't want to see

less than that if the dog is what i call a zombie or what you said you use the word numb like yes dog is yes and i i i still um want to kind of emphasize that i do not take that lightly it was on you know as much as it was a cartoon and whatever uh yeah that there is like and it's not just my belief there is uh uh uh very growing within the psychiatry community argument that the ssris reduce empathy and emotional responsiveness and this is serious stuff and there is studies there is studies like there is another one that again i'm gonna show you all those and there's a all of them are very recent now you and i would agree that you've done research i've done research we can create outcomes but you can still find some interesting things so so this one um 2019 still fairly recent yeah antidepressant treatment not depression leads to reduction in behavioral and neural responses to pain empathy it was a very very interesting study what they did they basically had people on medication observe other people uh uh feeling discomfort from different levels being physical being mental be whatever right and and and um um it clearly showed they use uh everything that you would want to do to have correct study uh three groups and so on and and and it did show that it reduces empathy and emotional responses when you talk to people like when you talk to um i i will tell you like uh people that have come off or people that are still a little bit capable to to explain what is going on and and like like let me try to to kind of paint a picture uh from one of the the conversations that doctor that i'm having tomorrow his name is dr joseph uh um but anyway he he uh basically like imagine losing all of your positive emotions no sadness but like all emotions imagine hugging your best friend or a family member and feeling nothing imagine hearing your favorite song that no that one that used to give you the goosebumps and and now it's just background noise imagine drinking alcohol even taking drugs doing nothing you used to feel something from now imagine that emptiness is permanent not because you're broken but because a drug rewired you're developing brain during puberty and and now your body doesn't know how to find its way back this isn't just a sexual side effect because they you we are it's well-known side effect right but but but we this kind of trying to minimize the problem this is an emotional devastation it's cognitive too because people cannot think clearly anymore they cannot work they cannot connect uh they're like spectators in their own lives um if this is what this drug can do to humans

who are fully aware and able to talk about what's happening what the hell do we think happens to the dogs who are being under this kind of medications um are they safe and effective um they're there questions right they're their questions it's it's a valid question and and there's a good chance that you know for some of these things unless we'll find a way to you know read the dog's thoughts or something like that we're not gonna know right so again we go according to changes in behavior now it is true all the things that you mentioned there are known side effects in people as well but there are other studies in people that show that their life are actually improving with the use of these medications so you know yes they're bad studies or even great studies but with you know bad results and i'm doing like the rotation yeah yeah because because you know it kind of like doesn't fit the the maybe the narrative that psychiatrists will want to say that yeah that they're safe no we are aware that there are dentures and there are issues do dogs can also have you know the same things like you're mentioning like basically deprive them from their joy in life and kind of they're not feeling those things there's a good chance that in some dogs yes because again we believe that the brain of people especially with let's say the or the basic emotions does work the same as in in dogs knowing if it's actually exactly the same that's hard to say that's why for example you know let's say a good example would be autism right so in people there's like the spectrum there all kinds of different tests that you can do and even genes that are associated with it and in dogs we almost don't have any studies about the topic and not because we don't think that dogs might be autistic i think that most of us believe that there are dogs that have behavioral issues because they're on the autistic spectrum or the equivalence of that in dogs but we right now we don't have ways to know it and you know again i wish we had things like measuring something in the blood or like some sort of a scan that will give us the answer but we know we don't so right right i'm like going back sorry no no i'm saying that kind of going back to what we said or what i said at the beginning that uh in the end we we're both trying i mean both groups right dog trainers and veterinary barriers are trying to improve not just the dog's life of course the dog's life and the owner's and life and if there's any danger to the dog or people around the dog and all of that of course we

also try to to address that so in a way we will take and i'm using the word risk even though in most cases i don't think it's such a big risk but we will take that risk of affecting dogs in no in negative ways and again the same thing can be said about training methods in some dogs a specific training method might pause an actual might cause an actual risk right i mean the dog might end up becoming even more aggressive or more fearful because of what we did so no question same as as in many case using medication so that's why we try to do studies and like you said sadly we don't have enough we don't have enough mainly because of funding just so you know for example the study that i did i did a study i have to disagree with you here funding is not uh funding is definitely not an issue i i know it's an issue in in the in your area but in in the field of human psychiatry big pharma is flooding i mean it's pouring my funding is not an issue it's actually funding is what most likely created the over okay so let me rephrase funding from a source that doesn't gonna cause bias to the results because that's very important right uh in veterinary medicine and you know specifically specifically we're talking about veterinary medicine and not the human uh the big pharma are not gonna pay anything and my study was partially supported by uh by the university where i did my residency and i also got like i think two thousand dollars if i remember correctly from a fear-free pets so you might say yes there's some bias there uh i can tell you that they didn't have any say about how i'm doing the study or or and they didn't see anything before it was published but um you know my study was considered a good study in the way that it was done right because it was a double blind placebo control study so people that don't know there are like even different levels of studies the best one is considered a meta analysis of double-blinded conceit um placebo control so like they actually had a bunch of studies that were both the the person the owner or technically the patient when we're not talking about dogs but the patient and or the owners don't know what drug the dog is getting and also the researcher is not is not aware of what drug the dog is getting and then we have something that we're actually measuring and only after we finish measuring everything only then we unblind everything now everyone are getting you know let's say in my case they got a capsule either one with the medication or with corn starch or

vitamin c which is not the indication and in that and by the way my study it didn't really show a big difference between dogs that received gabapentine in the before the appointment that we kind of like did a sham veterinary visit interesting between that and the placebo there was a little bit of difference difference in and statistically significant but between them as far as like for example lip licking which is considered a stress sign if in favor of the gala painting dog so it did seem like it helped a little but nothing crazy i mean nothing like oh my god and might also be because of how i designed that study but you know i'm gonna chase you down to to to get this from you right i don't know that's a definitely i mean it's a not a problem but uh you know i i'm in a way i'm actually i feel good that i published a study that technically didn't support right many other veterinarians think because a lot of veterinarians say okay we have an anxious dog let's give him gabapentin now in my study didn't seem like it worked that well there's another study then done by someone else that i think also was also double-blinded they used it for a thunder thunderstorm and in their case it did seem like it did something and you know i have veterinarians including behaviors that swear that that gabapentin works i can only say that in my study didn't seem like it worked yeah as much again there might be some issues going on with my study that explained it but you know but that's considered a good study because it actually had that double blind control yeah yeah so there are other studies not a lot that only checked kind of like you know we gave the medication maybe not even blinded and then ask the owners what they think like was there a change or did you see anything yeah we sometimes that's all we have so yes we do have science-based medicine no not all of it is the highest level but we then we go with kind of like do no harm as far as using medications or or trying to minimize where i want to challenge you yeah that's where i want to challenge you again with the we do no harm um i can because um um it's it's always kind of presented more on the safe and effective side and there is serious serious side effects and but but before we get deeper in those uh like i like we we can agree that it would reduce arousal but reducing arousal in it's not the same as uh restoring joy or something no so first not necessarily it will reduce arousal and depends again depends on the case the pain depends on the

patient it's not something correct but when we're looking at bigger scoop percentage wise the idea is to just just as you said in your own words in in this over arousal correct it is arousal and that's a very big distinction between the two things yeah i i'll correct myself yeah yeah yeah but but but so reducing over arousal it's not the same as restoring joy it's i'm not saying it's a bad thing it's not yeah yeah i completely agree with this okay now the opposite of depression or anxiety or or all of this it's not happiness it's really not i will tell like i um i don't know where i heard it i think it was uh to one one cliff or it's one of the this current kind of big names uh but anyway what when she said this it really hit home base for me the opposite is actually curiosity you want you want curiosity you want some i'm intrigued i can recognize novelty as a dog trainer when i have a behavior problem if i have a dog that doesn't have curiosity i i will struggle yeah i will really really struggle right no i agree with you completely because again as far as the treatment goes as i mentioned medication is just one part and you know i think i think it is important to understand why we use the medication it's not to fix the behavior we try to get the threshold a higher meaning that it will give us a little more wiggle room to actually work with the trainer on the behavior issue because let's say you have a dog that will explode because he's so afraid of other dogs or like he's crazy hyper aroused because of anxiety and you know every little thing will trigger him even miles away so you know we can't do anything it doesn't matter if you're going to use shock colors and it doesn't matter if you're going to use only treats the dog like the second that it happens explosion right that he goes from zero to 60. the goal of the medication in most of these cases is to give us a little bit more time to be able to actually work on the behavior and treat the behavior many times once we did it for you know enough time and the dog now learned the new behavior there's a good chance that we can win them off the medications and they don't need it they're not going to need it anymore so the fact that a dog is being put on some anti-anxiety medication doesn't necessarily mean that he's going to be on it for their for the rest of their lives but if we do see that you know we started winning him off and again despite the fact that on the medication he was still curious he was still playful he was as far as all of us can tell

enjoying life and eating nicely and and you know interacting with their owners and and you know if it's a playful dog with other dogs and all of that everything else kind of like seems like a normal dog what's going on in the brain again we can't ask them if they're happy or not we can only say that their behavior is kind of looking normal it's not in most cases it's not a problem to keep them on those medications for life as long as you know the veterinarian knows about it and he will do blood work once a year once every six months to make sure that nothing in change is changing and you know adjust things like what would it have to change in a blood work without when you're talking about something that out there uh like there are a bunch of things that can be affected by this medications again depending on what medication you're actually using let's say uh some ssris might affect thyroid levels might not actually cause thyroid disease okay yeah yeah sure sure sure yeah for sure for sure but i'm talking about uh um actually like it is very hard to evaluate something that you don't even know what you're diagnosing to begin with um um like i will tell you that's a good question and again this all comes from human psychiatry and and the problems that they are facing and that are actually really uh challenging right now the one of the interesting things is that all of the studies that come out that actually big pharma allow to come out because there is studies that like you cannot see a study that's bad you have to you have to do a serious homework for this that's that's true but it's true um in all scientific uh of course not just medications so i don't think it has anything to do with pharma i think it has more to do with researchers not wanting to publish things out there and you know when they get like bad results that don't fit their hypothesis that's why again i'm actually pretty proud of the fact that i published something that maybe didn't write the hypothesis right but but the the the companies like lilies and whatever they want to make money they want to make money uh they have no interest to to publish those studies we know everybody agrees on that um one of the the interesting things where i was going with this is that uh most of the even the studies that do come out they're done within again this eight weeks of time and as you said from there on we are putting somebody for three years or perhaps for life on that medication yeah how is that eight weeks uh a baseline of what's gonna happen no so you mean what the

actual change or the fact that they don't try to see i mean that it's it's very uh impossible to to evaluate how the drug affects your brain within eight weeks and what happens in long term these are two twister apples and oranges yeah no so it is lacking it is definitely lacking and but you know i can say the same thing about the study that you were a part of right we'll get there let's not let's five days no we don't have a lot of time so i think it's uh it's also important right i mean but i need to i need to make i need to make sure that we we go here and perhaps maybe we do need to go because these are not easy topics and we cannot uh you know how you say well you can win it off one of the biggest problems problems that human psychiatry faces is tapering ssris this is like the most incredibly difficult thing and it's not talked about and there is a lot of psychiatrists that would be like oh no like they will come on on national tv media and then talk about it and it's like no this it's very easy it's whatever it's a total contradiction it's one of the hardest thing to do and when it gets really hard is not to get to let's say from 15 to 5. it's the last two and now you start to blow off and now what happens typically is there will and and the the patient himself is like i need to go back on because it's helping me and it's not because it's maybe it's a serious withdrawal problem this is highly dangerous addictive mind why is it addictive if it's actually helping the person what's the problem you're saying that the person it's himself is saying no it's it's working so you know we do try to look for you the lowest possible dose yeah you didn't get the point i'm trying to to make um maybe the peop the person believes that the medicine is working while in fact it's the withdrawal of the medicine that it's so powerful that they feel like they feel like total correct correct and they have to go back on it and this is with people and with dogs we cannot even you know all we can do is just watch their everyday life observe body language and and appetite and decide if we need to decide for them they cannot even say that and that's a problem it's it's a problem i don't i actually don't think it's such a big problem because especially if it's not causing any medical issues and the person feels like it's helping them then why not even if placebo effect is a good effect if it's actually working and not causing an issue and again i i will take it to our field first we actually don't see crazy withdrawal signs as much

as we can i mean we keep going back to the point of what if what if the dog is like this or thinking like that we don't have the way to tell it and that's the same thing i can say about any method of training and also you would have a dog not not necessarily you specifically but you will have a dog for example being trained with a with a shock collar you will have in many cases not all cases but in many cases you will have to always have even if you're not using it but you will have to keep the actual shock collar on the dog and in some cases you will have to actually use it for those situations you know recall or chasing away after uh after another animal or something like that so you actually also didn't really fix the problem because the dog still wears the collar so you can say the same thing about the medication okay yeah didn't really fix so i um um ori ori i i totally disagree with with what you just said and it's going to be a beautiful conversation to like really really really go into that rabbit hole about what you just were talking about yeah but it wouldn't make sense it will be like a again like a clickbait or or this like uh on on tv like okay you have two minutes to say what you need to say yeah like this is a deep conversation that every like i i bet you we will have a ton of requests of people that would want us to talk about it i will i will be happy if you let me just again nothing to do with the studies or all that just kind of like uh sure something that i do think that is important for for people to know a lot of people believe and you know you might be one of them and say it's okay everyone is entitled for their own opinion but a lot of people believe that using those psychoactive medications using those anti-anxiety medications especially the long-lasting ones not those uh fast-acting ones but the long-lasting ones like the ssris like prozac or clomipramine is from a different family but using those medications might lead to a dog that is not happy that is not enjoying life or that has you know side effects well in fact if you ask most of the veterinary behaviorists and their experience and again the the studies that did ask owners what they saw it's actually not the case in most of these cases the dogs are behaving normally and just not showing the problematic behavior to begin with do we need to throw those medications on every single patient that we see definitely not and i can tell you that as a veterinary behaviorist i a lot of times i get clients that are coming and they're already

on prozac that their primary veterinarian gave them why because they read somewhere that prozac can reduce anxiety or can make the dog less aggressive and it's definitely against it right yeah and i'm definitely against it because again just the medication is almost never the treatment yeah and i i yeah i love what you're saying and and i have to of course mention that i am i do believe that there is time and place for them but it's it's a i i also do believe that it's extremely ex highly overused like if yeah i mean if we're talking like if i have to put some percentage i would say like we need we need to come down to like three percent perhaps instead of 45 and i can tell you why i'm coming with 45 i have a school for dog trainers i have a very big pool of trainers that train pet dogs yes and we have regular zoom calls discussing cases and so on and because of my obsession with this kind of stuff somehow i came up with this question i'm like guys how many of you how often a dog comes that is on ssri well it was a lot it was surprisingly a lot yeah my next question was and and what i mean a lot like let's say within two months at least one dog was on medication now granted they come with some problems right so they but we can say well they need medication but right but the next question i ask is like well any of these dogs have you talked to the owners and the their veterinarians are is there any plan to taper off never that's never so then the interesting question would be how many of them got the medication from a behavior specialist yes if that's not the case then of course it's skewing the results and and i agree with you i agree with you that it's overused and used in a wrong way then i was asking them well what is the youngest age and the youngest age was a six month old what are we doing right and you're correct what you're saying you're probably very right because but but that's most likely on on on avsab if i have to think who should take responsibility instead of going so strong against uh uh aversive i'm not saying they shouldn't or should it but this is within that within their real specialty they should have some control of the general veterinarian industry of what's happening out there but i think that they again being a member and overall kind of like agreeing with the general things that they try to let's say teach the veterinarians and the public and and trainers by the way i think trainers can actually also if i remember maybe not trainers but technicians i'm not sure but the that organization is not

in a way the organization that is uh you know the most qualified to do those uh decisions or stuff like that i mean if you want to actually go with like better or you know the best recommendation i would still go with the american college of veterinary behaviors because again that actually has something uh something behind it i was a member of the f sub even before i was in my residency yes because you can you have they even by the way they do have good um position statements and they have reference there and usually those position statements are actually written by specialists but having said that that not not the fact that someone is a member of the of the avsab is not necessarily proof that they know what they're doing so that's why it's really important to know who is the person that's prescribing your your medications yes you know the higher highest tier would still be and i'm sorry i might be offending some of my colleagues that are not diplomats but you know when when you have a dog with epilepsy or with seizures would you prefer that a neurologist will see him or would you prefer that a general practitioner that's interesting interested in you know in in neurology will do all the treatment and something like that sometimes the general practitioner might be great definitely but the credentials of the neurologist are so much better because you know that they have to go through a very rigorous training to become what they are and the same goes for behaviors i as i said i also get doctor already on those medications and i kind of like disagree with it because sometimes because they only gave the dog the medication and didn't do anything else about it now the owners don't even trust the fact that the medication maybe in that case might actually work because they just used it wrongly correct yeah yeah i mean but but that's the like i you know as much as even now as you were talking i'm thinking how i just can't put the blame on the just the general veterinarian but it's probably not even fair to do that because it's been the whole idea has been sold to them as this medication is safe and effective so they don't feel that they should be concerned and we haven't even touched the the the depthness of of the side effects of what this medication do to humans um you know what is interesting is like if if like if chemical imbalance were truly the root cause of like depression and behavior problems in dogs how come natural selection allowed it to remain so widespread in in population right it's just not going this is not so something is tweaked that

and and and and those things are are crazy complicated in people and in dogs all i'm saying all i'm saying is we should not be irresponsible and overuse like the most my most difficult cases and they're recorded they're like from day one as they come they are recorded until until like we're talking three months every session filmed regardless if it's here in the training or if it's out in public or whatever so it's very very well documented this this stuff i have learned that it's important that it's important to do because talk goes so far right my most difficult cases i found that i have to taper them off the medication so they can start to get excited about life a little bit so i can so i can connect to them so i can say hey bobby and bobby goes yeah it's me and i have something to work on we're talking about selection bias because you know those that got to you there's a good chance that you know they tried the medication didn't work they maybe tried reward-based trainers didn't work and then you got them and there's bias right because they already did those things and maybe did them in a wrong way and then affected the because you know if you look at my patients also i have patients that came from either positive or any other kind of training methods a lot of them as i mentioned came with already some medication from their veterinarian and i would definitely expect that the number of cases that i'm seeing or let's say the complexity of the cases that i see are much higher than you know the normal dog probably you will see the same right because again if it was something that an owner can just look on a youtube video and train by themselves very true they wouldn't need you or me so we are already biased to kind of decide and by the way that might actually also affect why you're seeing what you're seeing and i'm seeing what i'm seeing because it was already selected for us that those that came to me already did those things and that's why i can say oh yeah all of the all of my patients trainers couldn't help them and and you might see something that's completely different because you see patients that were already treated with medication and say all of my clients are dogs that medications didn't help them so in those cases we need to be very very um caution on how we you know use our own experiences right don't stand the rise for sure i absolutely yeah 100 agree with you uh you know though and i i'm not gonna change my mind i agree with you 100 i'm also not gonna change your mind

what what i was gonna say is like i have this one dog right now that i'm somehow end up with and he's that kind of dog that would you just describe them very well he was on oh man what was the medication now uh exo plum yeah yeah gabapentin trazodon the cbd supplement and some other supplements for calmness for three years without any like zero change he's gonna be euthanized tomorrow so someone did something wrong exactly my point okay like you can see my frustration we agree and i can have the same migration three years and didn't die because of the medication which is also important to say but i was not able to get anything from him while he was on medication and and that's very well documented and now when we have and i i'm sure we will have the next conversation because people will want us to talk about aversives and electric colors in particular yeah you will i promise you they will want to you will see the comments but just to to say that i absolutely would agree that you can you can bring that in and say well but there is you know a lot of happening with electric colors that doesn't need to be happening yeah and i'm not gonna i'm not gonna argue with that yeah and by the way i wanted to say that i actually appreciate the fact that here and in your youtube videos and all that you actually call them electric colors and you draw don't try to sugarcoat it and call it it tickles it only tickles yeah and all kinds like uh you know it is what it is so you know that's that's actually something that did impress me and and one of the other reasons like i was happy to come uh come today thank you the discussion because it did seem like you don't try to sugarcoat those things no i i genuinely just like yourself i have my beliefs but i want to challenge my beliefs and that's why i have the conversations i i do want like i like you convinced me i'm i'm not gonna keep hitting banging my head in the wall like i'm i'm not uh i know we are well over the time that you said you can have i i really really appreciate it i was actually very very happy with how we were able to talk to each other even to begin with because you never know how this can end up right um and and as we said in the beginning we we still are who we are nothing has changed but we allow people to hear different sides and i think that's what matters ultimately so really really appreciate i will send you as i promise i'll send you all these little things and yes that's and i will remind you to get your study and um hopefully we make it again i really i really think it will be cool

yes thank you are thank you so much bye thank you for having me